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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I’d feel better about supporting the meta if every meta team succeeded and every non-meta team failed. Tons of meta teams fail and tons of non-meta teams succeed, so the meta build requirement just isn’t that relevant. Builds are way down the list of factors why raids are won or lost.

Oh, because everything must be either black or white. And every chance ever is 50-50. Degrees and shades do not exist.

Talk all you want. Meta increases your chances, and not by a small amount. I know it, because I’ve experienced it.

Did you even read what he said? No-one is saying the meta builds are not the most efficient, efficiency is important in your head, not everyone’s head, were not all obsessed with dps. Poor players playing meta is worse than good players playing non meta.

Now read carefully the post you just quoted. And find where I used the term “dps”, or even referred to it.

My reply was in response to a statement about success and failure. However, said statement is flawed and I pointed out how and why. Who’s tunnel visioning now? You’re not even reading what I wrote, you’re knee-jerking.

Exactly because groups can fail and succeed regardless of their builds and compositions the point made is irrelevant

Your referring to meta, you have constantly related that to dps and efficiency and that’s was not what he was referring to, that’s all your type of raider ever thinks about – as evidenced clearly in this thread. Have the courage of your convictions and stop playing with words.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I’d feel better about supporting the meta if every meta team succeeded and every non-meta team failed. Tons of meta teams fail and tons of non-meta teams succeed, so the meta build requirement just isn’t that relevant. Builds are way down the list of factors why raids are won or lost.

Oh, because everything must be either black or white. And every chance ever is 50-50. Degrees and shades do not exist.

Talk all you want. Meta increases your chances, and not by a small amount. I know it, because I’ve experienced it.

Did you even read what he said? No-one is saying the meta builds are not the most efficient, efficiency is important in your head, not everyone’s head, were not all obsessed with dps. Poor players playing meta is worse than good players playing non meta.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

If raid meta is the only/best/safest way to do anything in GW2, why do so many teams complete raids without it? Teams complete them shorthanded, carrying buyers, without the raid meta comp, without the raid meta gear, and without the raid meta rotation in plenty of time. Teams even disagree on what the meta is.

The raid meta is great for maximum DPS, but does nothing else. If you’re only trained to the meta, you might think that nothing else could work, because that’s how it’s presented by many players. The meta has taken on an undeserved cultlike reverence that ignores reality (lots of options work, many much more consistently, none as quickly). Players will kick others over a difference of less than 0.1% theoretical DPS. You’ll lose more than that sneezing mid-rotation.

Using a skill at the wrong time, even blowing an entire rotation, won’t wipe a raid. That’s a fiction that’s held back the raiding community. Ignoring or failing a mechanic will wipe a raid and that’s just about it. There are DPS checks, but they’re set far below what’s provided by the raid meta.

Trusting a player to be good with their build is fine. Demanding that they play another build that they may not know at all hurts the effort more than allowing an off-meta build. Failure is almost always due to failing mechanics, not DPS checks. CC checks can also cause failure and building for more CC can help there. It’ll drop your DPS (you’ll still have plenty), but you’ll be more likely to succeed.

If you’re not going to trust a player, don’t put them in a critical role. I don’t care if it’s what the spec normally does in a particular raid. Let them focus on mechanics. Their gear won’t matter unless it’s particularly egregious.

Exactly so, this is a balanced viewpoint, some raiders are too tunnel visioned to see beyond ‘meta’ and dps, its not even arrogance, they clearly just don’t have the capability to empathize with others or self reflect ( I suspect they have built their persona around being a ‘top player’ – a sid effect of the dps meter race/performance measurement that is often abused), but its encouraging to see this viewpoint.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I enjoy Sceptre Focus myself, and hate GS (looking forward to the new Elite skill) , it just does not feel spellcasterish imoi


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Lets recap what you want:

-You want 4 other players in a group to match your internal monologue and interprotation of that they should be doing.
-You will automagically asess personalities and skills with people you have never met before in a pug run that is often over in less than 30 minuts(?) before you can ‘trust’ them.
-You get annoyed at people if you peceive that you are ‘carrying’ them
-You want everyone to follow your personal strategy preference – ball up on the boss and iterate through your rote patterns.
-You think everyone should follow the raiding model – fast as possible > diverse gameplay.
-Dynamic changeable play is ‘chaotic’ to you.
-You think people should play meta even if its painful and not enjoyable for them because ‘thats how they will learn’
-You think its ok for your guildies to play with builds because you trust them (contradicts last point)
-You will sneer at people if they dare use a weak skill (e.g signet of Air) because clearly thats important to group dynamics and risks the entire run failing.

Imagine all 5 players in a pug acted this way…


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Your forgetting what i wrote earlier, i’m not risk adverse I wait and see, but I don’t care what that result is, I know 99% of the time we will clear an instance which is good enough for me and moreover there may be some enjoyable trickiness that’s more interesting to me than farming like an automaton. I enjoy challenge I hate rote, I don’t feel the need to critisise others because of their skill and knowledge (But i will critisise arrogant obnoxious anti social players because in my mind they damage RPG’s – and that most certainly is my belief).


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

No, if you don’t want to research anything and want to deny things out of hand with ad hominem that’s your lookout. Ever heard of the trust experiments?

That aside even if it was in my head then I would rather have trust and see what happens good or bad than somehow have 5 people automatigically evaluate each others skills and personalities accurately in a 30 minute pug run in a game with small scope for true interation – now thats mmmaaaagic as Paul Daniels once said..


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

ps you are risk adverse because of your bias formed from your experience, thats your mindset and responsibility, not others.

I simply choose my risks instead of taking each and every one blindly. Based on my experience. It’s what everybody does, really.

Also you might want to note this group behavior is observable everywhere. In games, and also in real life. So perhaps my “misinterpretation” is actually the correct one. And what you preach is just wishful thinking.

lol ok your right and human behavioral science is wrong.

maybe this will eventually sink in at some point in the future, ya never know:

‘Trust is the responsibility of the person who wants high trust. If you want others to trust you – it’s your responsibility. If you want to be able to trust others – it’s your responsibility.’ ps this isn’t my words.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

i’m not saying anything, your saying it yourself and still cant see it – read the anthropological articles if you want to understand your misinterpretation of trust and how it impacts group behavior.

peace out.

ps you are risk adverse because of your bias formed from your experience, thats your mindset and responsibility, not others.

‘Trust is the responsibility of the person who wants high trust. If you want others to trust you – it’s your responsibility. If you want to be able to trust others – it’s your responsibility.’


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

No actually Trust is something you give freely to start, that’s what team building is all about, same applies to generosity of spirit and compromise. If you don’t Trust from the start then your not respecting others .

your concept of Trust is at the root of this perception mismatch:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maggie-rowe/4-reasons-why-trust-is-no_b_8119270.html

https://richardfagerlin.com/2015/05/the-big-lie-about-trust-5-reasons-why-trust-is-not-earned/

‘Trust is the responsibility of the person who wants high trust. If you want others to trust you – it’s your responsibility. If you want to be able to trust others – it’s your responsibility.’

’Risk tolerance.

Some people are natural risk takers; others are innately cautious. How tolerant people are of risk has a big impact on their willingness to trust—regardless of who the trustee is. Risk seekers don’t spend much time calculating what might go wrong in a given situation; in the absence of any glaring problems, they tend to have faith that things will work out . Risk avoiders, however, often need to feel in control before they place their trust in someone, and are reluctant to act without approval. Not only do they not trust others, they don’t even trust themselves. Research by the organizational anthropologist Geert Hofstede suggests that at some level, culture influences risk tolerance. The Japanese, for instance, tend to have a lower tolerance for risk than Americans.’

etc etc.

can you see how this lack of trust is an issue?

Benevolent concern.

Trust is an issue not because people are evil but because they are often self-centered.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Dont you realise those puggers are in their own guild, they are real people just like your guildies, no different. The difference is that raiders bring a self important arrogant attitude to the pug and judge people based on dee-pee-ess. Either don’t pug or learn to trust people, focus on your own job not others, and relax the sphincter muscles. Otherwise who the hell wants to pug with a person like that.

Put it another way, when you join a pug you cannot predict what the group and skill composition will be, if you cant handle that it could be below your ‘standards’ then don’t join, its not their fault they dont meet your standards its yours for not being able to adapt.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

There’s a difference between judging someone and externalizing that judgement. Nobody said anyone wants to enter an instance without clearing it and that “play your way average Joe” defines the spirit of Guild wars games and players (the majority of players)

if you are comfortable with your fellow guildies experimenting then that’s no different to what I was arguing about earlier, people should be free to play with builds. Which ofc contradicts the statements and attitudes that are demonstrated towards pug players in instances i.e ‘carrying’ people etc.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

It’s not about what I think they should do. It’s about the results. I’ve seen enough groups struggle and wipe on the same encounters I’ve breezed through with a meta comp. Failing something you know for a fact is easy isn’t particularly enjoyable. And if the choices of a particular player are ruining the enjoyment for 4 or 9 others, I’m sorry but I can’t find any respect for that.

Then you shouldn’t pug with people, Gaming is about ‘results’ is a subjective view in your head. Clearing an instance is a result, but in your head a result is an instance cleared in just the way you think it should be done. You just don’t get it, when you start judging people you are at fault, and more than likely the source of drama we all hate.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Are you sure about that? ‘Actively refusing’

Raider mentality – get annoyed if someone doesn’t do what you think they should do. Maybe you should ask yourself why they ‘actively refused’ and respect that eh.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Not poetic, real life with real people. As for your scenario, well you’ve already talked about poorly performing players in a dozen different ways, and I have already said good gameplay is not about playing the blame game its about smiling in the face of diversity. In real life if I had a trainee developer that was clearly struggling I would support him or help take the load – that’s normal healthy team behavior right?

you should read this -
https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome

‘The downside of categorical thinking is that in organizations it leads to premature closure. Having made up his mind about a subordinate’s limited ability and poor motivation, a manager is likely to notice supporting evidence while selectively dismissing contrary evidence.’

Apply that to a 5 man instance.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

your tunnel visioned with regards to dps and meta’s. Viable means viable.

,A group forms and aims to blend to gain synergy . When you blend something you don’t say ingredient 1 is carrying ingredient 2, they are greater than a sum of its parts, note you do, this is the raider mentality.

Imagine a football team in real life where the team has a star player who constantly talks about how he carries his fellow team mates – we have all seen players like this, and they get little respect ironically because of their attitude. High skilled poor team player is far worse than lower skilled team player.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Viable : capable of working successfully; feasible.

Talking about ‘carrying’ people is another one of those passive aggressive comments that is flung about to insult others – it’s the ‘your not good enough’ mentality. Good teams don’t carry’ people they simply play together and enjoy the content that the group dynamic brings. Good players don’t care about who is carrying who, they simply enjoy players with others – just like those great board games and the root of RPG history.

Imagine the worlds greatest player joined your group and had an attitude towards you because he was carrying you, is he a good player or is he just an kitten ? Or, imagine you joined the best raiding group ever for 1 night and they were collectively 5% better than your own guild – and even though you are a good player they looked down on you because they were better players – pretty crappy behavior right?


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

exactly so, it may be a few % slower but so much more relaxed and enjoyable. Especially relevant with pugs.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

yes, and that level is ‘viable’ not ‘optimal’ in everything apart from raids. In raids people endevours to be more efficient, in dungeons and open world PVE and PVP (well to be fair pvp has different synergies to consider) and WVW this is very different because there is no simple goal involved, the goal is not to optimize the group, the goal is to enjoy playing the class and to seek out and deal with more dynamic gameplay – we have raids for rote complex pattern matching already.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I don’t actually have my Ele in all zerker at the moment, but that doesn’t really matter – the fact is I can kill groups of pocket raptors with relative ease on any other class I play regardless of build/stat combos, and I frequently die trying to do the same on my Ele.

Sounds like you need some sustain! Pocket raptors couldn’t even scratch my Cleric’s Auramancer and I had no issues killing them. No problems killing anything, really.
I soloed Champions running Earth/Water/Tempest with zero Precision and Ferocity from gear, food, or utilities.

Was it fast? No. It was slow at killing anything (trash excepted), but it was incredibly safe. I had no concern at all about dying. Why? Because high DPS does not equal safety. You can absolutely build your way to safety and still have plenty of DPS to down your target before it can down you.

What matters is (Enemy Adjusted DPS/Player Health) / (Player Adjusted DPS/Enemy Health). By “Adjusted DPS” I mean DPS adjusted for any healing and loss to evades, blocks, protection, etc. As long as that number is less than 1, you’re golden. If that number is 1 or higher, then you’re going down. The closer it gets to 1 on either side, the longer the fight takes.

AOE can hit everything, which is nice, but it has a problem in that it depletes all enemies’ health at roughly the same rate. So you’re hitting everything, but nothing dies until after it gets 2+ rounds of attack on you. Enemy DPS runs at 100% until something dies. Strong single-target damage can cut into enemy DPS. Five raptors becomes four for 80% DPS and you’ve got instant improved survivability. Another dies and you’re at 60% DPS. Sustain is a LOT easier under those conditions. It may take you a couple seconds longer to kill all of them, but you’ll live, which is nice.

For any glass cannons having problems with sustain, I’d recommend the following:
1. Open with a stun, blind, evade, or block. You’ll avoid the initial burst of damage, which is usually the heaviest, and give your AOEs time to work. If that doesn’t work, then…
2. Change up your utilities and traits to facilitate #1. What you may need are more stuns, blinds, evades, and blocks. If that doesn’t work, then…
3. Change up your traits to increase sustain. Trait for things that reduce your opponent’s Adjusted DPS. If that doesn’t work, then…
4. Change up your specializations to increase sustain. Again, you’re looking for traits that allow you to reduce opposing Adjusted DPS. If that doesn’t work, then…
5. Change your gear and build to increase sustain. This is – and should be – the last option. Good gear is expensive AF. Change to something closer to a WvW build with more Toughness, Vitaility, and damage mitigation.

The easiest change for a glass cannon Ele is retraiting Fire to 1-1-3. You’ll blind anything you burn and you’ll almost always open with a burn on your target. You only proc this once every 8 seconds, but it’ll mitigate that initial burst and that will likely be enough to get you through. When you’re fighting tougher opponents, switch back to 1-1-1 (if someone else provides your Might or you have a ton of blast finishers in your rotation) or 1-1-2 (under any other condition).

this is good advice, use the tools in your toolbox to your advantage.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

strange i have 2600 toughness and absolutely slaughter packs of mobs with condition damage and burst in Hot. Do you use use food or utility, or have your gear setup to match the chosen type of damage you use? when i’m aoeing I have enough defenses that for 7 or so seconds im practically immune to damage. Once you know your class in depth you ave the tools to do more than just smash a max dps aoe rotation, and its more fun.

Well maybe you can do that with condition damage, since condition damage is disproportionately weighted toward a single attribute, giving you the ability to hybridize. Power builds can’t really pull this off. It’s actually backwards, since power builds need defense more than condi builds do.

Really, all you’re doing with this post is showing how broken the game’s overall balance is.

The thread isn’t about whining about condition damage, so i’m showing nothing app art from options that you have as an ele.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

strange i have 2600 toughness and absolutely slaughter packs of mobs with condition damage and burst in Hot. Do you use use food or utility, or have your gear setup to match the chosen type of damage you use? when i’m aoeing I have enough defenses that for 7 or so seconds im practically immune to damage. Once you know your class in depth you ave the tools to do more than just smash a max dps aoe rotation, and its more fun.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Story missions too unfair for solo players

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I don’t see how adding an easier mode for the story stuff would harm anyone. /shrug

It works for fractals, tweak the awards and achievements based on difficulty level and its a fair model. Same for raids.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

@AliamRationem:
I agree with in the context of generic PvE and mostly solo play. Defensive stats can be a useful crutch there until you’re comfortable enough with the class to not need them anymore.

But I’m talking about group scenarios in the context of meta group composition and tactics. Having defenses doesn’t really make much difference in this case. You’ll make mistakes, everyone does. But you’re stacked with the group and the Druid is spamming heals on top of you to keep your GotL stacks up. This can outheal a LOT of damage. Depending on the exact comp and tactic you may have high Protection uptime, get Aegis from the DH in party or a well-timed Distortion from the mesmer so you don’t even have to dodge a particular attack. It really is more beneficial, for both you and your party, to have the full glass spec here. Of course this, too, assumes some level of competence from all the players. But it’s not nearly as high as you may think.

man i’m not sure you realise your doing it! ‘generic’, ‘useful crutch’
is the same derogatory comments in another form, anything that’s not dps is a waste to you, your blind to gameplay beyond that perfect dps number and sterilization of all game play until you get the perfect samey combo that can be optimized to death so you can do it over and over again ad infinitum.

Gaming is not all about min-maxing, gaming is about emotional and intellectual pleasure. Stacking in a pile and smashing your face on the boss while the 5 of you roll through the same combination of spells is turgid awful gameplay for many, i mean its obvious, watch from outside in a video how it looks, what is the point appart from ‘fast loot’! For some being x% less efficient but a much more interesting fight is what gaming is about.

Lets take it it to the extreme ends of the efficiency scale to really emphasis whats going on here – The most efficient rotation: all 5 players can spam skill number 1 in a ball on the boss which gives max dps, no risk of death, and fastest approach as long as everyone keeps spamming. See how horrible that is? that’s what raiders pitch, routine and order. Dull and insipid supplemented with little adrenaline bursts from the dps meter meta game.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

So i was told that i shouldn’t go staff.Is staff unviable? I was told that dps on dagger is better.

All the weapons are viable, i personally mix between dagger/sceptre/focus to suit my mood. I would take armor of earth to help and tempest to start, and do have food and utility, it costs pennies and makes life much easier. Staff is the least mobile of the weapons so I would not use that in a zone that is mob heavy and needs regular movement, unless you are confident you can nuke mobs down easily.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘Chaotic’ is derogatory term again which is known as dynamic true rpg play by others who embrace challenge. Dynamic gameplay scares some raiders as they cant pump out their rotation and cant cope with change, that’s not what they train themeseves to deal with, They need to minimise risk and introduce routine, the benefit of routine is speed if you care for that. Many people love dynamic game play where people trust in their players and skills to adapt to the group dynamics. Neither approach is wrong Horses for courses as i’ve said, there is room for both if you can handle it.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Rubbish, people make less errors when they take time, more when they blindly run through mobs shouting /gg every 5 minutes because they have died yet again (we have all seen that haven’t we). Your confusing raiding for normal play where you have 1 person trying to control a pack of players and funnel into a rote strategy. As for ‘chaotic’ your using ‘chaotic’ describes perfectly the elitist attitude with others who blindly spew out ‘meta’ every 2 minutes like mindless automaton. Builds that are not meta are not ‘chaotic’ in fact they favor control and mitigation more than those that kitten dps and die every 5 minutes and scream and tut and huff.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

here is the difference between meta mentality and non meta mentality:

Meta – ball up its faster, use optimal build x its faster.
Non Meta, I really enjoy combo X and Y it worked really well, Its not optimal but i enjoy pulling it off.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I have a great example, its blatantly obvious when you do instances with raiders, they invariably want to stack up on a corner and stack on boss. This is the most efficient way ofc, but its dull as hell, and new players learn absolutely nothing apart from spamming their face off in a big graphical blob. Now in raids its critical you control placement, but outside its a lot more enjoyable to loosen up a bit and flex your abilities and placement awareness.

It’s not just raids. Stacking on corners were the meta in dungeons long ago, and it is still a thing in fractals despite the Social Awkwardness instability. It is just incredibly beneficial to keep the enemy in your damage AOEs, hence this way of playing. Especially if your group can outheal or otherwise negate the damage (mesmer distortion is fantastic in this respect, I’d say it’s a larger group dps improvement on some bosses than GotL).

Keep in mind this, again, is drive toward perfection. Only on a different scale, this time it’s about the group rather than just yourself. It’s not very interactive, meaning you often flat out ignore the incoming attacks and you fully rely on your team to mitigate them. But I’d say it is nevertheless quite satisfying. Of course, if you have the mentality for it.

I also do not agree players do not learn anything from it. I became a much better player once I started raiding. Unlike dungeons, raid encounters throw mechanics in your face all the time. Raiding improved immensely my positioning, dodging and timing skills. My attacks now get interrupted less often and the mobs rarely move out of their areas.

Ironically, the meta also taught me to not be afraid of tweaking my build or utilities depending on the situation. For many bosses the optimal traits, utilities and even the weapon choices, are different. This improved my understanding of the class. I now don’t hesitate to change build, using completely off-meta traits and utilities for a particular fight because I can now better kitten their value in this situation. Ironically again, these improvements are best seen in the open world. But the changes are real.

Now, of course, this is only my experience. But I believe you’ll find many players, especially new/less skilled ones, to share it. I think, as one of those players, you either go through something like it or you stop raiding. I don’t think there’s a middle way here. You either enjoy the process or you don’t, and if you do, you’ll keep improving because it adds to the fun.

which is all about efficiency again (a given for raids ) not gameplay, different horses for different courses. Stacking in a ball is not great gameplay, its extremely poor gameplay born from a need by some to do everything as fast as possible.

You can get better without smashing your face against the boss in melee range, especially if you are not melee. it wont be optimal, but it will be more fun for many and that’s the point, not everyone gets off on speed and highest possible numbers and ‘perfection’ rather they try to improve on personal rather than meta driven goals, this is RPG.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I have a great example, its blatantly obvious when you do instances with raiders, they invariably want to stack up on a corner and stack on boss. This is the most efficient way ofc, but its dull as hell, and new players learn absolutely nothing apart from spamming their face off in a big graphical blob. Now in raids its critical you control placement, but outside its a lot more enjoyable to loosen up a bit and flex your abilities and placement awareness.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

actually meta means optimize rotation, and use reduced skills sets, that increases 1 aspect of skill – muscle memory and rote memorization of rotations. that’s why you often find PVE players get slaughtered in PVP, they struggle with dynamic gameplay. However as long as people keep an open mind and realize that their way is not the only way and choice and diversity is the food of interesting gameplay then thats a healthy place to be in a rpg imo.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

nobody is disregarding min-maxers, i myself spent many years playing at a high level, i know what it takes. The issue is only with people who min-max telling others that’s the way they should play outwith raids and thats been driven out by a minmax blinkered mentality which has been driven out by modern raid design. You don’t get people who experiment with builds and play builds that are different telling others to follow suit or get out of group – but you fo get it a lot with raiders. D2 is a prime example of a game type that crossed over to rpg’s and kittened them up, its a very different style of gameplay (rush get loot, rush get more loot, rsh etc etc)


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

You have no kittening clue what raids are. “Insane events”? “Benchmarks”? Please…

There’s zero difference between raids and the rest of the PvE in terms of general roles and classes that can do them. You want to heal as shout warrior? You can. You want to dps as a power rev? You can. None of these would prevent you from successfully clearing the raid, as none of these would prevent you from completing any other PvE activity.

The raid meta isn’t something required, it is something efficient. And the thing is, it is efficient not just in raids. Like I said, remove the raids, nothing changes. Ele will still be used as dps, because this is where Ele fits best in a PvE group comp. And I do mean, nothing changes. Since the 5-5 mirror meta became a thing, not even the 10-man group size is a factor.

Is incorrect, raids focuses on optimising roles, it weeds out hybrid builds because it is inherently inefficient. in any other PVE you are free to experiment, splice in some healing if you wish, a pet because you like the flavour and utility etc etc.

Speed runs and ‘efficiency’ wasn’t a thing until it was promoted as a way to prolong the value of raids in late 2000’s where the only reason people played is loot as fast as possible. Its all good if you want to min-max, but min-max also means pick 1 build that is optimal, and that’s restrictive gameplay. if there was no requirement to min-max then just as you say many will still do it, but the peer pressure will be gone on others to follow suit, everyone is free to experiment with their own builds, which derives from the RPG board game roots – enjoying the gameplay for the sake of gameplay.

Imagine a game of Descent or another classic RPG Board game with a group of close friends at home; efficiency and min-maxing is not a goal of the group. Same deal with good PVE. Now compare that to raiding, the differences are crystal clear.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘slack’ or ‘slacker’ is a raider derogatory term that came about alongside the development of metrics in the noughties, it has nothing to do with Role Player Games, but unfortunately negative behaviors has seeped in as a result of competitiveness and optimal rote play that discards gameplay diversity over speed and efficiency. Glass cannon is perfectly valid 1 build philosophy that is weighted extremely highly by raiders (and raid designers more importantly), its also a build that gets slaughtered in PVP – RPG is not just all about dps numbers for some. The benefit of ele is actually its extreme versatility – if you favor resilience, you can mix that in, if you favour pure dps then fill your wellies etc. If you try to shoe horn into 1 single play-style then you may be missing the point and opportunities for more diverse gameplay – explore and win is the most satisfying way to play imo.

So to OP, the best advice is surely to explore and experiment knowing that the class is ultimately perfectly viable so you are not heading towards a dead end.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘slack’ or ‘slacker’ is a raider derogatory term that came about alongside the development of metrics in the noughties, it has nothing to do with Role Player Games, but unfortunately negative behaviors has seeped in as a result of competitiveness and optimal rote play that discards gameplay diversity over speed and efficiency. Glass cannon is perfectly valid build philosophy that is weighted extremely highly by raiders, its also a build that gets slaughtered in PVP – RPG is not just all about dps numbers for some. The benefit of ele is actually its extreme versatility – if you favor resilience, you can mix that in, if you favour pure ps then fill your wellies etc. If you try to shoe horn into 1 single play-style then you may be missing the point and opportunities for more diverse gameplay – explore and win is the most satisfying way to play imo.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Totally agree with this ^^. making a change to ‘balance’ a class that only positively impacts a tiny part of the game, and negatively affects everywhere else is not smart. For me Mmorpg’s are at their best where there is a enough slack in the game that everyone is free to experiment with builds they enjoy. Ironically if you look at modern card games like Elder Scrolls Legends you get to see that freedom in action; massive variance, players embracing and actively seeking out new ideas and combos – the direct appositive of the normalization and sligthly oppressive process raiding goes through (simplify roles, find a tactic, rote it to death, do it faster)


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

eles need buffed

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I was messing around and their survivability is a mess.

I was doing everythign in my power in maguma and i was getting frustrated i died like 21 times and got like 11-12 monster kills.They are sooo squishy and i had earth build, i mean jesus.

Give their protection and downed state some serious survivability buffs please?

Ele does not need buffs for PVE, I pretty much aoe slap packs with my ele. The tactic i use with Scepter focus for example is to round up the pack, then lay down all my big hits and condy then switch to earth. With earth + focus and a bit of movement i get very little damage, and can use heal if i take a spike. Also, imagine you had a trait that said ‘reduce all damage by 10% and increase damage by x% – well that’s what you get for a few copper with food and utility buffs – always use

Also bear in mind PVE metas are skewed by raiders who are aiming for optimal dps and prioritize dps over everything. The build you should aim for is a build that is firstly viable and then FUN for you. Then tweak between heal/tank/burst based on your targeted style of play (aggressive/tanky/love moving a lot etc)


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Why Map Content Doesn't Last...

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

As with every thread in this forum the answer is and always will be ez mode raids! Here called it first. The answer to all our problems!

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, raids should have been gated, either by some gear requirement like AR provides for high level fractals, nor maybe, needing to have done a level 100 fractal before you could enter a raid.. in any case, not gating the raid by some means gave the illusion that anyone should be able to do them, and that is where everything went wrong with them.

since a fraction of the player base plays or cares about raids i hardly think more gates or elitist attitudes is the answer to the lack of participation. There is a reason why WOW turned to more inclusive balance levels as well as tightly tuned.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

HoT is nothing but group events and...

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

… enemy spam

Just trying to do the personal story is ungodly painful trying to read dialog and getting ganked by 20 veterans, I honestly find nothing fun or redeeming about this expansion.

Well many many have solo’d the main story and found it a doddle. Ask yourself this, am i using a utility buff? am i using food? (less than the cost of using portal) that could reduce all dmg by 10% and increase your own damage right there. Now, do you use condy removal and some protection? etc etc. to avoid those 20 veterans why don’t you just find a spot where there is not 20 veterans? there’s a safe spot every 10 yards all over the map.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Story missions too unfair for solo players

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Hey guys

Loving the game as always, looking forward to the expansion. I am finally playing through Living World season 3 and there is a lot of content there, so congrats and thanks for that! There is one problem, though, which has plagued many missions in Guild Wars 2.

Story missions, especially those with bosses, are way too hard or unfair for solo players.

Yeah, yeah, this is a MMO and blablabla but I bet there are tons of players out there that queue alone and try the story missions. It sucks that a lot of bosses can destroy you so fast. I think that some of them would be okay for 2-3 players but in solo play you just hit your head against the wall, respawn and go at it again. The design is so bad that it doesn´t matter if you die – you can respawn, the boss has the same health as before then you just continue fighting it, dying and repeating.

I think some mobs could be scaled down for single player play and a lot of bosses could do less damage – maybe even as far as 40-50% less damage.

Thanks!

its not a ‘blablabla’ mmo, it is in fact designed to be a game played with other people. In saying that, many people solo the stories easily, and obviously its perfectly easy with groups, so you have lots of choices – learn the fight, watch videos, experiment with builds, play with others, smash your face against it endlessly until you crack it, leave it until you are more skilled. No different from any other challenge in a mmo game. The game design does not have to change to suit your exact desires at a particular moment in time, you just need to pick how you want to tackle a problem you are having, and thats what makes games pleasurable, when you crack a challenge without needing to cheat/nerf.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

How long will be a patch every 5 minutes ?

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I’d much rather they shut it down and get it done right once, rather than the constant patching.

Its just annoying.

so going by your development model, lets say they do their big release every three months and today is the day, so now we have a huge code drop using your model, which means more bugs. Unfortunately because you want no patching, all those bugs have to stay unfixed, potentially ruining gameplay for the next 3 months. This is why they do regular fixes. Google Waterfall development.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Next xpac is announced, HOT free?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

The title pretty much encompasses my entire question. I quit before HOT, and I don’t plan to pay for it now. The game was going in a horrible direction when they introduced the living story and changed the trait system. Willing to give the game another go when Fire comes out. Will HOT be free or will I have to buy both?

No hot is not free, so good news is you only have to buy HOT if you want it.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

How long will be a patch every 5 minutes ?

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

For the next month? Two months? Three months? Forever?

Whats up with that?

Pacthidy patch patch.

Okay gotta go download the new patch that popped up while I was writing this.

;-P

So exactly what do you want, regular fast fixes or no fixes for long periods of time?


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Base ele can still pull 33.7k

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Well, makes no sense to leave my own group, does it?

Well you are now shifting things to the owner of a party being advertised. If that advert said, expect build Y or X the that’s a different thing/discussion. If it didn’t then its the same discussion, if they have a viable build, then you give the respect you expect to receive – its common courtesy.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Base ele can still pull 33.7k

in Elementalist

Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

No-one argued against that. viable is viable. and I agree if you don’t like someone build then you can either accept it or leave.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Base ele can still pull 33.7k

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Wrong, ^^ Faster and less risky is a reward based mentality where all that matters is the most efficient form of win.

There is more than 1 mindset involved in gaming, not everyone cares that they took x minutes longer to get a reward or needs all risk removed, many prefer more dynamic game play over normalization, and play in games to explore and maximizes their skills with a build – that’s been the GW for over a decade and one of the things that differentiates it from the other mmorpg out there.

There’s nothing wrong in trying to explore your builds and maximize your efficiency with an off-meta build. Except in group content. You can’t assume each and every player out there will be OK with being dragged down and facing content made deliberately harder for your own fun. Sure, there are those who don’t care. And those who would genuinely enjoy it. But there are also those who want to be efficient and you have to respect their wishes. They are every bit as valid and as relevant as yours. So no, it is totally fine to request your team mates to play meta. It is exactly as valid as wanting to play your way. This simply is their way.

wrong your applying ‘dragging down’ as a strawman/negative. Learning is not negative, and good game players get that its all good gameplay (because guess what, at some point they learn too). Moreover, mmorpg is all about group play, and part of that gameplay is experimenting with builds – where exactly do you think metas are learned?

in any case the definition of viable really tells the story:

‘capable of working successfully; feasible’

You can ask a team mate to play a build, but as long as what they play is viable, you either respect their decision and their gameplay or you don’t.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

Base ele can still pull 33.7k

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘And on the flip side, you’re always better off using the optimal builds/compositions’

Wrong, ^^ Faster and less risky is a reward based mentality where all that matters is the most efficient form of win.

There is more than 1 mindset involved in gaming, not everyone cares that they took x minutes longer to get a reward or needs all risk removed, many prefer more dynamic game play over normalization, and play in games to explore and maximizes their skills with a build – that’s been the GW for over a decade and one of the things that differentiates it from the other mmorpg out there.

Nothing wrong with having your opinions about other peoples builds, there is everything wrong with criticizing those builds if they are viable, that’s missing the point of gaming.

‘You cannot force others to accept you and play with you more than they can force you to play the meta build.’

exactly so, and yet people try to do it.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Base ele can still pull 33.7k

in Elementalist

Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

simply put:

- VIABLE: <- should be acceptable to everyone, if its viable you have no business telling people to pick other builds if they are happy with the build.

- META <- required for events that are designed for min maxing, i.e tightly tuned raid events.

No-one wants a game where everyone runs about in the same build, and that’s what happens when people try to force others into a small subset of builds. dull dull dull and stagnation. See WOW for how that goes.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

Base ele can still pull 33.7k

in Elementalist

Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Its deliberately exaggerated to extrapolate out and demonstrate the flawed reasoning from a gameplay perspective. your using the word ‘effective’ to mask the problem, the word is ‘optimal’ which is ofc the issue. Telling someone to use a build they find boring, that’s not conducive to fun gameplay. as long as the build is viable, it should be ok and people have no business telling other people otherwise.

I can give you a concrete example, i just completed a fractal as sceptre/focus with a raider whocomplained in chat that I was using a pet, it was a waste of dps he said. That’s true from a minmax perspective, but from my perspective i loved the fact twice i saved a ‘/gg’ by popping my stone ele so i could rez be 2nd last man standing. the guy didn’t get it, and was quite frankly rude. Now this is anecdotal, most raiders are not like that, but it demonstrates a certain mind-set and a failure to understand that fun is subjective. In his mind fun is using ‘/gg’ when things got tough – the equivalent to raid call to wipe.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

Base ele can still pull 33.7k

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

lets look at an example where we push the variables to the end of the spectrum to expose the issue with people imposing optimal on people:

1. Imaginary build, you spam 1 key – best dps in game by a country mile, clearly meta for speed runs and pure dps role in instances.

2. Imaginary build 2, complex rotations, lots of skills.

MinMax/Meta would be 1, the vast majority of players find 2 is fun, 1 is not. Now what about the person who kicks someone else because they are not using the meta now – best for the game and community, i think not.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize