Guild Wars 2

Just a reminder: you can report players for being idle during a match.

Whenever you see a teammate standing at the spawn point (or any other safe or hidden spot) for long periods of time, report them. When they joined, they agreed to play for the whole match.

*It doesn’t matter if they’re unhappy.
*It doesn’t matter if they don’t like the team composition.
*It doesn’t matter if they just got beaten up by the other team.
*It doesn’t matter if no one is listening to them in team chat.
*It doesn’t matter if other people are doing it too.
*It doesn’t matter if they want the match to end faster.

The person who’s idling at the spawn point owes you—and your entire team—a full match’s worth of effort. Mental health breaks are for after the match. So if you see an idler, make sure you report them.

As a bunker, I’m not a huge fan of personal PvP scores. Holding a point just doesn’t light up the scoreboard the way that roaming and capping do. So sometimes I feel a little bit left out.

I do use personal scores pretty frequently when I’m grouped with my friends and guildies, especially when they haven’t done much PvP. Three minutes (or so) into a match, I’ll check the scoreboard. If someone has a really low score, like 10 points or less, I know that they’re struggling. Then we can move things around so they get more support.

It’s not a great system, but it has helped some of my PvE friends ease their way into PvP. Just based on that, I’m glad it’s around.

Trevor Boyer, is this stuff happening to you mostly on Saturday and Sunday mornings? For me, Saturday and Sunday mornings are the worst time for matchmaking, and some of the things you’re describing sound eerily familiar. Especially the weird team chat and the teams that race to an early lead and then vanish as soon as they score 250 points.

I didn’t see it on your list, but players who run to a spot, fight haphazardly until they die, then run back to the same spot to do it again, and again , and again, seems to be a Weekend AM specialty too.

Your mileage may vary, but you may find better luck in the evenings. I know I do. You still get some frustrating matches, but they are much better than the ones you find on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

Your weekly PvP events sound like fun. We run group v group events every few weeks, but some regular 1v1, especially in a friendly setting, might take some of the anxiety out of “real” PvP.

I thought that the matchmaking system would take our unexperienced players into account. That’s part of how we encourage people to make the jump from Practice mode to Unranked PvP. But it doesn’t seem to work that way.

I notice it most when I play a few matches on my own before we team up. My solo matches have decently close scores (no worse than a 200-point margin, usually, and most are much closer). The players themselves are pretty well-matched too. The best way I can describe it is “everyone has a chance”. Some players are definitely better then others, but no one seems totally lost, and I never see anyone getting farmed by their opponents.

But once I start adding teammates, especially new teammates, the matchups get worse. The team scores start to drift apart. 500 to 200 losses are the norm, and 500 to 100 is not uncommon. And people start to get lost. I see players who have participated actively for the entire game scoring 5 or 10 points. Sometimes they don’t score any. And sometimes, when the match is really bad, the entire team scores 10 points or less.

A final scoreboard where every player on one team has more than 150 points and every player on the other has less than 10 tells me that the matchmaking system has failed. It doesn’t take many matchups like that to burn a new player out completely.

I’d really like to find a way to prevent this before I team up with more new players.

I think I’m going to try a completely new profession next time. If I understand the matchmaking system correctly, it should put me at the same level as a brand new player. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Does anyone out there have any suggestions for taking new PvPers into Unranked PvP?

I’m a decent, middle-of-the-pack PvPer. When I’m on my own, or teamed up with friends who are at about the same level, I see a lot of good matches. So you could say that I am very satisfied with the current matchmaking system. For me, it seems to work really well.

But I’m also an event organizer for my guild and I frequently bring groups of new players into PvP. For the last few months, the results have been disastrous. We end up facing organized groups of experienced players who tear apart our newbies. And that creates a “Dragons vs Rabbits” effect where the experienced players feast on the new ones, and the new ones get no reward for being there.

I think I’m the problem. As a mid-level PvPer, I may be distorting our team’s rank. Then you add in the extra credit you get from being grouped, and it’s dinnertime for the Dragons again.

So does anyone out there have any suggestions? Here’s what I’m considering:

• Switch professions (does this even work?)
• Use a second account for newbie PvP (I have one, but this feels like cheating)
• Going to practice matches instead of unranked PvP (that’s a good start, but unranked gives much better matches…when the matchmaking system works)
• Go in smaller groups (less fun…we’re a big group kind of guild, but possibly maybe sorta workable)
• Send the new players in on their own and spectate (that’s no fun. I’m a guildmate, not a coach. I want to play.)
• Telling new players “You wouldn’t like it” (no. Just no.)

GhOst.4019:

There is a chance you go against soloers but it is pretty small. The matchmaking will try to push even amount of teams together. For instance 5v5 or 4-1v 4-1 or 2-3 vs 4-1. The issue with this though is if there are no equal teams in Q, eventually it will just put the closest thing it can find and result in slightly unfair matches. This is compensated for the points you receive or loose on leader boards. If you end up getting pitted against a full Q as full soloers, your chance of winning is less than 20% and therefore you only have to reach 200 points in match before you start gaining leader board points; even if you loose. If you were to win, you would gain the max amount of +3. Kind of complicated and there is wikis that explain everything better.

If you’re looking for lopsided matches, I think you’re more likely to run into 5-player teams who are well below (or well above) your level.

Right now, it feels like the system puts a LOT of weight on team size, especially when it’s looking at 5-person teams. Our guild currently has about 15 players who are trying to make the jump from the practice arenas to unranked team matches. If we try to bring 5-player teams into an unranked match, they usually end up facing players who are 30-40 ranks above them.

The results are ugly: quick, lopsided losses (150 to 500, or worse) and players who aren’t able to score a single personal point. It might be fun for the ones who are doing the stomping, but I can’t believe it does much for their advancement.

We just had a whole night of “Hares vs Dragons” matchups. The times are approximate. I wish I had known this thread was here last night. I would have written things down as they happened.

Time: 8pm to 10:30pm US Mountain Time on Feb 8, 2015
Type of Arena: Unranked
Map: All of them, except Skyhammer and Courtyard
Datacenter: NA
Account: signahead.7281

Description:

Our mostly casual guild is starting to get interested in PvP. So last night we took teams of 5 newish players into the unranked arena. We hoped the unranked arena would be a good place for everyone to learn a bit about team PvP while playing against people who are roughly their own level.

Here’s what we had:

5 players per team. None of them were higher than rank 30. Most of them were rank 20 or lower. The new players had dabbled in practice matches (which are fun, but not really team-oriented) but hadn’t done much in the ranked or unranked arenas. To be honest, most of them were a little scared of team PvP.

Here’s what we encountered:

Highly competitive, highly ranked teams. Judging by the finishers they were using, they were at least 30 ranks higher than anyone in our group. We fought teams where every player was a “Champion Something”, which means they had won more than 150 matches with a single profession. Our lowest ranked players had played less than 50.

They destroyed our teams in every single match. The closest game I remember was 500 to 350. Most of them were much, much worse. In at least one of our matches, our lowest ranked members weren’t able to score a single point. Everyone came away frustrated and disappointed. It was a lousy introduction to team PvP.

Edit: the problem seemed to pop up once we had a full 5-person team. We started with a couple 3-person queues, and those were good matchups. But once we filled up, the matchmaking fell apart.

This event is soooo much fun with friends. Last year, we had Guild Toypacalypse events almost every night. Smashing toys and building snow forts were our favorite parts of Wintersday.

This year, we were looking forward to doing the same thing, and it doesn’t work. Your explanation was far from satisfying and we have several guildies who range from disappointed to furious. This is not a good start to Wintersday.

You could have done much better, ArenaNet.

VoxShatterfall.5470:

But have you tried to cap a well fortified / sieged T3 garrison lately vs 20-40 defenders even with 50-60 attackers? Some people would say that attacking such a target is a waste of time. Last time we did it, we needed at least 5 pushes over a 1 hour period. And thats without the new tricks.

This sounds like a good thing. A solid hour of fighting with 70-100 people over the most valuable keep on the map? Yes, please! Let’s do it again tomorrow. Heck, let’s do it again right now.

Sure, zerging up and running over a smaller force is fun. But some of my best WvW nights have involved long, multistage fights over a valuable objective. We smash against the walls. We test the objectives. At first we get clobbered. But we slowly whittle down defenses and drain the castle’s supply. If everything goes well, we finally break open the gate and capture the castle. But even if we don’t, it’s a fun night in WvW.

Virtute.8251:

signahead.7281:

Right now a few good cannon shots can wipe out all of the rams at a gate.

You missed the point.

The point: Players that carry disablers are already smart enough to kill cannons. When you are being attacked by these players right now, they are using AOE to stop you from using the cannons or oil. Disablers are just giving them a different tool to accomplish the same result.

Therefore, choose a different example for your case.

Do you mean like my arrow cart example, which you conveniently ignored?

Or do you mean the multiple cannon examples, which you also ignored?

You shrunk everything down to a single straw man, and then chose to argue about that. I’m having trouble taking you seriously.

Virtute.8251:

signahead.7281:

The 45-second disable sounds awful. That’s enough time for a 5-10 person group to destroy all of the cannons on a gate before the defenders can fire a single shot. Bring a larger group and you can clear all of the arrow carts, cannons, and pots of oil off of a wall without any fear of reprisal.

That’s irrelevant to siege disabler. 5 or more people of the right classes (or with their own arrow cart) have always had little trouble removing cannons and oil. Disabler doesn’t make it easier.

Those sieges are irrelevant against an opponent competent enough to use the disabler. An opponent competent to use disabler is competent to defeat them without disabler.

It is entirely relevant. In fact, a 45-second siege disable that can cover the entire width of a wall makes a huge difference.

Right now a few good cannon shots can wipe out all of the rams at a gate. Or they can put a decent-sized dent in a golem rush. You just need a brave (and possibly suicidal) character to step up to the cannon and take them. But with a 45-second disable, they won’t get to fire a shot. For 10 supply, you can make those cannons irrelevant.

You’re right. A well-constructed havoc team can take out a cannon quickly. Especially if they take the time to build siege (although personally, I prefer using a ballista rather than an arrow cart). But the cannoneer still had a chance to fight back. Disable that cannon for 45-seconds and he’s got nothin’. Heck, you can probably destroy that cannon without building any siege. That means you can build more rams and take the gate down even faster.

Siege disablers will also be great tools for clearing the tops of walls in general. Can’t get your elementalists close enough to whittle down those arrow carts with meteor shower? Just toss in a siege disabler. You’ll be able to cuddle up to the wall and destroy the arrow carts before they fires another shot. For 10 supply, you just made the cart irrelevant.

In WvW, I’m mostly an attacker, so I may be missing some interesting ways to defend against these attacks. But when the patch arrives, my options for clearing wall-mounted siege look a lot better than they do right now. In fact, I don’t think we’ll need to fear wall-mounted siege at all, as long as we have a stack of siege disablers.

The 45-second disable sounds awful. That’s enough time for a 5-10 person group to destroy all of the cannons on a gate before the defenders can fire a single shot. Bring a larger group and you can clear all of the arrow carts, cannons, and pots of oil off of a wall without any fear of reprisal.

Whenever I launch GW2 or try to use the trading post I get this message.

“The program can’t start because d3dx9_43.dll is missing from your computer”

Fortunately GW2 still launches, but the trading post does not work. I would love to throw money at you, Arenanet, but without the trading post, I can’t do it. How do I fix this problem.

Thanks, Khisanth.

The wurms and I have decided to call it a draw…for now. I’ll try your suggestion out tomorrow.

Just tried the crimson wurm. When “The extractors are ready, get to the wurm!” popped up, we ran to the wurm and tried to DPS it, but none of us could target it or harm it at all.

After a few seconds of fruitless attacking, the extractors emptied and the whole thing started over with a completely undamaged wurm. At that point, most of our zerg left and the handful of people who were still fighting got flattened by a mob of angry husks (At least I think that’s what happened, I was too busy vomiting to notice).

Is there a specific place where we need to stand to damage this wurm? Is there something we need to target?

This was really frustrating experience.

It’s a fun game, but it is veerrrryy dependent on finding a good instance, one where most (or, Tixx forbid, all) of the participants are playing the game and not just marking time to get the “Play 15 Matches” achievement.

It would be oh-so-very-much better if that achievement actually encouraged people to play the game, instead of standing aside and hoping for a quick 500 to 0 finish.

sKILLziGnite.2756:

Thank you for all the great write-ups. I’m deciding between warrior and thief based on the replies. I’m partial to stealthy gameplay, but I’m a bit worried about their incoming nerfs. Does everyone see the thief as solo viable after December 10th? Or would I better rolling a warrior?

I don’t think that shortbow + sword/dagger thieves (or at least the kind that I play) will be affected at all. Not sure about other builds, but I suspect thieves will still be very effective.

For scouting, hunting yaks, and taking camps, I love my shortbow + sword/dagger thief. It doesn’t have the burst damage of some other thief builds, but it has really good sustained damage, surprising durability and a lot of useful tools.

The fighting style’s fun, with a lot of movement, dodging and crowd control (mostly slows and blinds with the occasional weakness or daze). You can fight’n’kite at range or mix it up in melee. And you can do some fun “thiefy” things, like shadow-stepping and stealthing without resorting to the burst>retreat>reset sequence that’s so popular right now.

If I’m running around with a few friends, I also really enjoy my spirits + shortbow + sword/dagger ranger. She has most of the same benefits as my thief, plus a larger toolbox and some great buffs for my friends.

Classes I like to play (They may not work for everyone, but they’re the best for me):

For 1v1 fights, I love my spirits + shortbow+ sword/dagger ranger. She’s durable, she deals great pressure damage and she has a lot of useful tools. It feels like I have a chance to win every fight.

But for small-scale WvW tasks, like scouting, yak-hunting, and camp flipping, (things that lead to a lot of 1v1 fights) I think I prefer my shortbow + sword/dagger thief. His tool-kit is a little smaller than the ranger’s but he has the same great pressure damage and survivability. Plus stealth makes it a lot easier to avoid zergs, which means there are a lot more opportunities for 1v1 fighting.

Classes I don’t like to play against (They work really well for other people):

When they’re played well, engineers give me fits. They have a scary mix of survivability and damage. It seems like they have a steep learning curve, though, and most of the engineers I meet in 1v1 fights aren’t very formidable.

I hate fighting any class that’s built to burst, run away and reset. If I ignore them, their burst damage can kill me. If I stand and fight, the stalemate can go on forever. It’s irritating for me, but some people really seem to like it.

I haven’t given up for good, but I won’t be back until two things happen:

1. I can run it on my own server (without waiting for hours).
I want to play with my guildmates and friends, not a random pack of strangers, especially angry, belligerent strangers.

2. We rebuild the community.
There are a lot of frustrated people trying to run Teq, and it shows. Map chat currently reads like a WoW raid night gone wrong. So much bickering and recrimination. GW2 has a great community, but it is not dealing well with the new event.

I think both of these things will happen over time (that reminds me…thank you, Arenanet for not putting an expiration date on this event). People will figure it out and move onto other challenges. Tempers will cool, and players will remember how to get along. At that point, I’ll happily go back and give Tequatl another try.

It’s been an interesting for Yak’s Bend. We’re talking about a server-wide “level up your lowbies in WvW week” and watching those lowbie groups get rolled by naked zergs from Dragonbrand.

There’s not a lot of actual competition happening, unless you count the race for the lower-level league. Is the same thing happening elsewhere?

Clobimon.9652:

I was there for this and we were just five minutes in. I’ll take that over an auto-restart just a few minutes from finishing. With this event there probably isn’t a good time to update unless it can be done in the 15 minutes between events and also not reset the timer.

Players like to complain about this kind of stuff. The truth is the same kind of things have happened in every game I’ve played, and, the same complaining is always there. We just have to accept it when playing online games. No time is ever perfect for everybody.

The patch was very small. For me, it took less than 5 minutes to log out, install the patch and log back in. That would easily fit within the 15-minute window between events.

All they had to do was look at a clock, look at the event schedule, and plan accordingly. It’s a foolish move that’s earned some complaining.

For future reference…timing your updates so they interrupt world-wide, 45-minute events is a lousy idea. Next time, ArenaNet, please do better.

Silver.8023:

It’s definitely something to do with the body type. For example, as a human male, choose the last body type and put the heavy plate shoulders on. You’ll notice they look stretched and crap. I had this body type before and aside from it looking kinda unrealistic, it made those shoulders and the radiant ones look odd so I used a total makeover kit and fixed it up. In fact, using the total makeover kit, you can directly see how body types affect the shoulder models.

That’s it! I just tried a total makeover kit, and body-type has a huge effect on these shoulders. When I switched out of the largest body type, the shoulders shrink down to a normal size.

The Radiant Mantle is huge on human male and sylvari male characters. Unless the character is standing still, with his arms at his sides, they clip with almost every animation, cutting into the character’s head, neck, chest and forearms.

On other characters, the mantle looks great, but there appears to be a scaling error for human and sylvari males.

Venirto.4208:

It looks fine on my female norn. It also looks normal on my human thief. Maybe it has something to do with the body type?

The shoulders in your picture are almost exactly what I was expecting. They reach up to your character’s chin and about halfway down her arms. And, by the way, I really like your character’s costume. It looks great!

On my character, the same shoulder pads reach halfway up his ears and almost all the way down to his elbow. If he tried to lift his hands into the air, the shoulder pads would crush his head like a nut. In fact, they clip into his head and neck on most of his animations.

Hopefully this is a bug that only affects male human and sylvari characters. And hopefully it gets patched soon.

I just put a radiant mantle on my human male mesmer, and wow is it huge. Much larger than the preview images I see on Dulfy. It almost looks like he’s wearing the Charr or Norn-sized mantle instead of the human-sized one.

I’ve attached a screen shot below. For comparison, take a look at the preview images at Dulfy.net:

http://dulfy.net/2013/07/08/gw2-radiant-and-hellfire-armor-skin-gallery/

Is the mantle supposed to be this large? Or is it a bug?

VinylScratch.3461:

Yamori.9781:

Can’t see any reason not to help other people get their titles, at least not one that makes any sense. Thank you to all the people helping out others get their titles and points. If you don’t feel like helping out that’s your choice. Don’t really see how it makes you a better person by showing other people up in a mini-game but so be it.

My reasoning follows an ends justify the means form of justification.

An old saying states: “Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.”

Let’s analyze this into the situation at hand now. I can give someone a free win and they can have their title, I’ve essentially just given them a fish. But the next event that has a title earned by a similar criteria, they’ll have no idea what to do and require another handout.

I can also beat them and hinder their progress in hopes that in order to get what they want, they’ll look towards accepting trial and error, and the principle of failure leading to success. The odds of this are very rare however, most people nowadays will just ragequit and find the handout somewhere else. But that’s not an issue I induce, that’s more of a personality flaw on their part if they’re not willing to put in the effort to kick it up a notch when it’s necessary and would rather find the easier road.

However, some times, and it does happen, you get that one guy who you spark the fire inside of them and they take each failure as a lesson and eventually beat you and earn their title. Actually happened to me about four hours before I went to work today. I had raced a guy eight times in a row, he eventually beat me and sent me a whisper saying pretty much he just wanted to beat me so bad he looked for every shortcut and made sure to win sooner or later. It happened and I was actually happy for him.

The above paragraph is a factual account and an example of teaching a man to fish. He earned his title, and now with the next title he seeks, I’m more than certain he’s going to apply himself to finding every trick he can to secure his goal.

In the event it works, the end result definitely justifies my means. In the event they get upset and quit and view me as one of the world’s biggest pricks, ohh well. Like I care what a bunch of internet people think about me or my strange way of teaching people to push themselves on a game.

It sounds like you’re giving yourself an awful lot of credit for doing almost nothing.

You have some strong competitive urges. That’s fine. But don’t confuse your need to win with some kind of backdoor generosity.

In the last couple weeks, has anyone noticed a lot of extra spiders on the final boss of Twilight Arbor’s “Forward/Up” path?

We ran it tonight with a guild group. After a couple wipes, the spiders looked like an Eternal Battlegrounds zerg. None of the people who have run this path before remembered so many spiders. And none of the strategies that worked in the past seem to work now.

So I have a few questions:

First, are there more spiders than there used to be? (I’m especially interested to hear from people who have run this path a few months ago and in the last few days.)

Did we do something to cause so many to spawn?

Or is there something we can do to prevent so many from spawning?

And finally, how do we deal with all these spiders?

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

Venn diagram summary of feedback from various threads here.

Some of us bloody love the Aetherblade dungeon, and some of us feel the Aetherblade dungeon is too hard – we’d all be served well if the dungeon was made permanent.

Is this something we can agree on?

I agree.

Thanks to my excellent teammates, I was able to complete the dungeon, along with most of the achievements. But I have several friends who are still struggling with it. Given some more time, I think most of them would complete it. Many would probably even learn to love some of the details (like Frizz’s encounter, which is absolutely awesome).

Sadly, they won’t get a chance to enjoy it, and they may even go away angry. As someone who wants to see his circle of GW2 friends remain excited about the game, that’s a little disappointing.

I’m right there with you. 4000+ coffers, no ticket.

To be honest, I’m not sure that I want any of the jade weapons. So it doesn’t feel like much of a loss. It’s still a great lesson in the foolishness of pure RNG rewards, especially pure RNG rewards that can’t be traded.

If I had paid gold for most of those coffers, I think I would be a little furious. I’d be even more angry if I’d paid real money for them. Either way, I can promise you this…I will never spend a cent on any GW2 reward that is completely random.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’m not addressing your concerns with those posts. I’m addressing the OP’s. He is sad that he can’t complete the story because he can’t do the dungeon. I’m saying the story doesn’t matter, so there’s no reason why Anet needs to make an “easy mode”. IF there were a requirement that a certain dungeon be completed, then Anet wouldn’t make it so challenging.

That’s fair.

But I would argue that a two-step system would be better. One “easy mode” step to capture Mai, then a second step that is much more challenging. That keeps the story accessible.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Now to address what you’re concerned about. It’s gonna be a similar answer, but hear me out. The story is optional. If you choose to continue with the story, you must do the dungeon. If you can’t complete it, the world isn’t over. Go on and do other things. But if it kills you so much that you “must” complete AR, then it’s just a matter of learning the game mechanics, and applying them to the challenges you face.

Also, the reason why there’s no “Story Mode” for AR is that it doesn’t tie into your Personal Story (and even that’s optional to do). All main dungeons in this game are tied to the story of Destiny’s Edge. AR is different, so it’s a stand alone.

I think we’re talking past each other here. I agree that the story is optional, in the sense that there is still a lot to do in the game even if you don’t complete this particular story.

But if your goal is to keep a group of players, like a guild or a group of friends, interested in the game then I think the story is necessary. That’s doubly true for Dragon Bash and the Sky Pirates.

In a general sense, the story is necessary because many people play the game for the stories. A lot of them (but not all of them) aren’t particularly interested in dungeons. They may even actively avoid them. Putting the story into a dungeon, especially one this difficult, cuts them off from the part of the game that they enjoy. And if they don’t enjoy the game, then they go somewhere else.

I think this is especially true in GW2 because ArenNet has been pushing the story so heavily. In a lot of games, the story-oriented players who completed the personal story would have moved on by now. But they’ve stuck around because ArenaNet keeps giving them stories. If they don’t think those stories are accessible, then they go somewhere else.

That brings us to the Dragon Bash/Sky Pirates event. Aside from the story, this event has been especially grindy. To me, and to a lot the people I play with, grindy events are really, REALLY boring. So there was a lot riding on this particular story. For a lot of people I know, that story ended very badly, with a long attempt at a dungeon that mostly ended in failure.

We’re currently doing catch-up runs, to help every guildy who wants to complete the story do so. But there are people who went away pretty angry. I doubt that many will ragequit right now, but they don’t like the game as much today as they did before they visited the Aetherblade Pirates.

To a person who relies on ArenaNet to keep the game enjoyable for all of my friends, this story was a problem. It put a big, irritating obstacle between my friends and their fun. And now we’re struggling to overcome it. That’s very frustrating.

Crovax.7854:

signahead.7281:

To use your own analogy, the current story asks players to perform a very difficult task that not many players can’t complete, like killing 250,000 foes in WvW, in order reach the end. That’s a new thing for this game, and its something that seems to violate the designers’ publicly-stated design philosophy.

I’m arguing that this is a mistake, and asking that they don’t make it again in the future.

broken analogy, tedious grind!= difficult but short dungeon

Analogies are never perfect, but this one still feels pretty solid.

Both the dungeon and the WvW achievement are things that many players can’t complete. If you have trouble understanding that, then please substitute another difficult achievement, like “Personal Space” or “Faster Than Light.”

Crovax.7854:

signahead.7281:

Are you saying that capturing Mai is the same as knowing that someone else captured her? Because personally, I would rather capture her myself. That difference between experiencing the story and hearing about it is what I imagine when I hear someone talk about “missing out on the story”.

I was referring to this post. No need to be rude, especially if you can’t remember what you wrote yourself.

OK. I can see how you made that assumption. I was trying to illustrate the difference between hearing about the story and experiencing it myself. And I was trying to do it in a way that empathized with someone who hadn’t completed the story.

This would be a better way to put it:

Are you saying that capturing Mai is the same as knowing that someone else captured her? I think that most people would rather capture her themselves. That difference between experiencing the story and hearing about it is what I imagine when I hear someone talk about “missing out on the story”.

I also apologize for being rude. I was frustrated because it looked like you were ignoring my point about the story and responding with a dismissive “L2P” argument. Like you say below, this gets old and frustrating very quickly, especially when it’s paired with silly things like “man up,” “suck it up” and “it’s your own fault”.

Crovax.7854:

I indeed do agree with you on this, but i also realise that there is no point in complaining about the current content. That’s why i told you to just suck it up and improve your playstyle. “L2P” really gets old fast, so i hope they do it
differently for future updates and people like you won’t have to come
to the forums crying that they can’t beat a dungeon that requires actual thinking.
For now though, l2p. The dungeon is fine, if you can’t beat it, it’s your own fault
for not learning from your mistakes.

I agree. The dungeon is fine. In fact, it’s challenging and fun. Like I said before, Frizz is a great encounter…maybe one of my favorites in GW2.

But the way it’s connected to the story really bothers me. It’s a departure from ArenaNet’s stated design philosophy, and I think that pointing that out is worthwhile.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, this isn’t about the story. It’s about the dungeon, and how some people aren’t able to complete it. And my opinion on this matter is that if you can’t complete it, I’m sorry, but that’s the way it is.

Either that’s a straw man, or you’ve completely misread what I wrote. Or maybe both. Like I mentioned above, please go back and try again.

I am not arguing that the dungeon should be easier. I like its level of difficulty, and I especially like the encounter with Frizz.

What I don’t like is the way that the dungeon is linked to to the living story. In order to complete the story, you have to complete the dungeon and that locks a lot of players out of the story.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I can’t score 250K kills in WvW, but I’m not asking Anet to buff my damage output to kill faster. I can’t play 10 hours a day, but I’m not asking Anet to increase gold drops so I can make more money in a shorter time.

That’s not what I’m asking either. What I’m saying is that the story shouldn’t be linked to the dungeon.

To use your own analogy, the current story asks players to perform a very difficult task that not many players can’t complete, like killing 250,000 foes in WvW, in order reach the end. That’s a new thing for this game, and its something that seems to violate the designers’ publicly-stated design philosophy.

I’m arguing that this is a mistake, and asking that they don’t make it again in the future.

Crovax.7854:

No, it’s not but i was just referring to your comment about storytelling and the fact that you can’t complete the dungeon.

At this point, I’m pretty sure that you didn’t actually read my posts. Or maybe you’re confusing me with another poster. Please go back and try again.

Crovax.7854:

I agree, a proper toned down story version of this dungeon without achievements and
reward would have been nice but that’s the way it is now.

It also looks like you agree that this was a poor design decision. That’s why I’m speaking up. And I hope it’s a mistake that ArenaNet doesn’t make in the future.

Crovax.7854:

signahead.7281:

Are you saying that capturing Mai is the same as knowing that someone else captured her? Because personally, I would rather capture her myself. That difference between experiencing the story and hearing about it is what I imagine when I hear someone talk about “missing out on the story”.

Well, in your version of the story, your character was too weak to catch Mai Trin and had to rely on Kiel and the Lionguard to do that. I honestly don’t see the problem.
You can be the hero but that doesn’t mean you don’t have to earn
that status.

Does that really sound like a game you want to play? Judging from the other comments I’ve read here, I don’t think anyone else wants to play it either.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

signahead.7281:

Story didn’t stop being important when the personal story ended. I suspect you actually know this, even though you’re pretending that you don’t.

Realize that the Personal Story was completely optional too. Of all my characters on my account, only one has finished the entire story arc. That’s my choice on how I want to play the game. I know that doesn’t mean the story isn’t important to other players. But if Anet made it a requirement to complete, then I could understand the calls for an “easy mode” to be made for the AR dungeon. Or should I say, an “easier mode”?

For the Dragon Bash/Sky Pirates story, it is a requirement. Sure in a metaphysical sense, the entire game is optional, but then we’re back to the argument that “It’s optional” is a horribly unexciting description for a game.

lordkrall.7241:

signahead.7281:

Story didn’t stop being important when the personal story ended. I suspect you actually know this, even though you’re pretending that you don’t.

Indeed, but that does NOT stop the fact that their talks about “your story” was specifically about the personal storyline.

The living story is quite clearly NOT about you, but rather about other people (such as Rox, Braham, Kiel, Marjory and so on.)

I’m having trouble taking this seriously. Of course the stories have other characters, otherwise they’d be awfully boring. And of course some of the characters are important to the story. But this is a role-playing game and player characters are still central to the story.

And sure, “This is MY story” may have been a line from the personal story, but it was also used to emphasize the importance of story in GW2. Those priorities probably didn’t change just because someone completed Arah.

Like I said to Smooth Penguin above, I think you know this but you’re pretending not to in the hopes that playing dumb will actually look like a convincing argument.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

signahead.7281:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Whether or not one finishes the story, that’s not the real issue here. Story is nice to have, but it’s optional content. The real issue is the fact that some people are unable to learn the game’s mechanics, or use them effectively. This doesn’t necessarily mean a player isn’t smart or is unskilled. There could be physical handicaps that prevent someone from having the manual dexterity to play the game. Or color blindness that makes the red circles harder to see.

But with that said, in order for it to be a challenge, it’s a given that some people may not be able to complete it. It shouldn’t mean Anet has to make it “easy mode”, or make different modes to satisfy a small portion of the playerbase. Challenging content is challenging.

On a side note, I would personally love to have seen a Clock Tower type puzzle added to the AR dungeon. That would make this dungeon the best there ever was.

“It’s optional” may be the worst description of a game I can imagine.

“So, how’s the new event?”
“It’s very optional.”
“Oh…wanna play Neverwinter?”

I much prefer games that are compelling and interesting. I’m pretty sure that I’m not alone. It’s great that ArenaNet has given players a highly challenging new dungeon. It’s an enjoyable and rewarding experience for many of the game’s players. But the way they tied it to the event’s main story left a lot of players out of the fun.

For you, story may not be an issue. But it is clearly an issue for many of the people who play the game. ArenaNet even made it a key selling point of the game (remember “this is MY story”?). That’s what makes this such an interesting hobby. It has a lot of facets that can appeal to a lot of different people. It sounds like you’re saying that your values and interests are the only ones that are important.

Yes I remember “this is MY story”. The purpose of that was to kill the Elder Dragon. You are confusing the racial character’s Story Mode with the extra content/side stories Anet is providing.

Story didn’t stop being important when the personal story ended. I suspect you actually know this, even though you’re pretending that you don’t.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Whether or not one finishes the story, that’s not the real issue here. Story is nice to have, but it’s optional content. The real issue is the fact that some people are unable to learn the game’s mechanics, or use them effectively. This doesn’t necessarily mean a player isn’t smart or is unskilled. There could be physical handicaps that prevent someone from having the manual dexterity to play the game. Or color blindness that makes the red circles harder to see.

But with that said, in order for it to be a challenge, it’s a given that some people may not be able to complete it. It shouldn’t mean Anet has to make it “easy mode”, or make different modes to satisfy a small portion of the playerbase. Challenging content is challenging.

On a side note, I would personally love to have seen a Clock Tower type puzzle added to the AR dungeon. That would make this dungeon the best there ever was.

“It’s optional” may be the worst description of a game I can imagine.

“So, how’s the new event?”
“It’s very optional.”
“Oh…wanna play Neverwinter?”

I much prefer games that are compelling and interesting. I’m pretty sure that I’m not alone. It’s great that ArenaNet has given players a highly challenging new dungeon. It’s an enjoyable and rewarding experience for many of the game’s players. But the way they tied it to the event’s main story left a lot of players out of the fun.

For you, story may not be an issue. But it is clearly an issue for many of the people who play the game. ArenaNet even made it a key selling point of the game (remember “this is MY story”?). That’s what makes this such an interesting hobby. It has a lot of facets that can appeal to a lot of different people. It sounds like you’re saying that your values and interests are the only ones that are important.

lordkrall.7241:

signahead.7281:

I think you’re confusing dialog and story. Even if no one says anything, Mai’s capture is a huge part of the story.

True, I suppose. But it is nothing you need to actually see or miss out on if you don’t manage to complete the dungeon.
It is basically: Defeat the boss. End of dungeon.

And since he quite clearly is fully aware about this, he doesn’t really miss out on any of the story.

If not I am sure we can find a youtube-video that shows that brief second of “capture”.

Are you saying that capturing Mai is the same as knowing that someone else captured her? Because personally, I would rather capture her myself. That difference between experiencing the story and hearing about it is what I imagine when I hear someone talk about “missing out on the story”.

Personally, I like the new dungeon, especially Frizz’s encounter. But it bothers me that it is a key part of the Dragon Bash/Sky Pirates story, especially since the non-story parts of these events were so grindy and boring.

Like I mentioned above, when my guild ran it this weekend, 20 people (out of the 30 who participated in the run) gave up after 3 hours of trying. The two groups who succeeded took more than four hours.

Sure, some of them will come back and try it again. And we’ll help the guildies who need it (even when it means running them through one at a time, because hey…we like them and the dungeon really is fun). But a large chunk of my guild came away from the event thinking that the new content is either tedious or unachievable. Some of them even believe that participating in future stories is pointless because they won’t be able to play all the way to the end.

That mixture of frustration, distrust and boredom is a great recruiting tool for the Neverwinter chapter of our guild, but it’s not good for GW2.

lordkrall.7241:

And yet nothing is actually resolved in the dungeon other than the actual capture, no talks about motives, no closure to the story or anything like that. There are literally 3-4 lines spoken in the whole dungeon

And this IS the story mode, there is no explorable mode for this dungeon.

I think you’re confusing dialog and story. Even if no one says anything, Mai’s capture is a huge part of the story.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Once again, there is no story in this dungeon. If there is can someone say what it is because like I said there were only ~2 lines that Kiel said at the end of the dungeon. Everything is “don’t leave me behind I’m useful”. If you just want story (and assuming that the dungeon does not need to be completed to see the final instance of her in jail) then ignore this dungeon and move on.

SPOILER ALERT

I’m not sure if you remember this, but Mai Trin is one of the main villains of the Dragon Bash/Sky Pirates story. Just as the players are about to arrest her, she escapes with help from the Aetherblade Pirates and hides out in their hidden lair. The expedition to track her down and capture her is a vital part of her story. It may even be the climax.

END SPOILERS

Missing that is like missing the last chapter of a book…the one where all the exciting stuff happens and the story resolves.

Crovax.7854:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

While I haven’t solo’ed it, if you time a blind at the right time her spike attack will miss. I think it’s around when she raises her pistol (also pretty sure that she doesn’t tele if she misses, but don’t quote me on that).

She is defiant, which makes blinds 90% less effective, so that method is
extremely unreliable.

Isn’t she also immune to blinding attacks when her shield is up?

The achievements don’t really bother me, but the storyline does.

Last Saturday, our guild did a six-group run into the new dungeon. 30 players started, and after 4 hours, 10 of them finished. If the dungeon is a required portion of the story, then that potentially locks out 2/3 of our guild.

For many of us, the story is the most interesting part of the Dragon Bash/Sky Pirates event. The rest of the content is actually kind of tedious. Smack a bunch of pinatas? Yawn. Chase down a bunch of randomly-spawning pirates (or wait for them to spawn once-a-minute at a cache)? Ho hum. Click on a bunch of remote, and mostly worthless, caches? Wait two hours for a mediocre fireworks display? Are you serious?

Without the story, the last two events have been very, very disappointing. We don’t want 2/3 of our guild thinking that GW2’s heavily-promoted new content is either dull or out of reach. Difficult dungeons are great. Heck, dungeons that are beyond the reach of 2/3 of the guild are OK too. But please, don’t put all of the interesting content behind a barrier that can’t be crossed by most of our players.

Justin.7163:

Anyway I’m ranting so TL;DR: This dungeon boss speaks to Anet’s lack of capability to create fun and engaging boss fights.

Now I agree that the final boss fight takes a couple of interesting mechanics and stretches them out until they lose most of their fun. But that doesn’t mean that every boss fight has the same problem.

Frizz’s fight, for example, has great pacing. It zips along from one challenge to the next. It’s very challenging, especially while you’re learning the encounter. And when it ends, my first though is “Hooray!” not “Thank God it’s over!” To me, that is an excellent bit of gaming.

I feel the same way about most of the living story dungeon bosses. The weapons testing room and the final boss duo from Molten Facility are both great examples. Arena Net clearly has the chops to make fun, challenging, exciting MMO encounters. But that’s what makes the final Sky Pirates encounter so frustrating. Rather than a thrill, it’s a chore. And it doesn’t live up to GW2’s high standards.

BrunoBRS.5178:

but yeah, ANet should either expand the API tools to let people mess with HUD settings, or make a colorblind mode themselves.

I love this idea.

We just completed a guild dungeon event with 30 people running the dungeon at the same time. It makes for a very chaotic Mumble channel, but it was ton of mostly-fun.

After seeing the dungeon for myself and listening to my guildies in Mumble, I’d recommend 3 changes:

Improve the box models in Frizz’s encounter. Right now, it’s not really clear whether you’re standing on top of the boxes or not.

Choose a darker texture for the floor in the final boss encounter. From many viewpoints, it is very difficult to see those red rings on the floor. A darker texture would improve contrast, and make them easier to see.

Make the final boss fight shorter. Ye gods, is that thing is tedious.

I’m certainly seeing less enthusiasm for this dungeon than I have with the others. Our guild is still doing “guided tour” runs, so every guildmate who wants to see the dungeon, enjoy the story and get the achievements has the opportunity. But there are almost no spur-of-the-moment pick-up groups.