Guild Wars 2

eugenstash.8610:

You’re comment

I am not a comment.

I vote Ele as well. Mainly because I don’t have one. Also, I seem to recall doing this a long time ago and it working…

If they’re not fighting back you shouldn’t give them a chance to run away. You’ll get a lot more hate tells from PVErs that way. I had a guy message me just yesterday that I killed and stomped when “he was trying to get map completion” It was pretty awesome. Deep V Diver or something. I laugh every time I look at those screen shots.

It’s BG, you’ll have to forgive them, they can’t win an open field fight without cheeseball tactics, sort of like how TC needs 3x your numbers or a superior arrow cart for every 5 players coming at them.

That said, I notice when I counter pin snipe BG (I never start it, but I always end it when Im on) they fall to pieces immediately and their zerg disappears off the map. It’s pretty hilarious.

I find it enjoyable to completely sneak up all stealthed behind someone…. THEN SPAM HEARTSEEKER! and nothing else. Generally people don’t die, and I shadow step away then run into a keep or tower, and they chase me and fail to kill me, then try to invite me and call me names and say I suck, but the jokes on them. (*^.^)

Someone needs to convince this Ferg Crossing RISE guild Warrior to teach me to fly also, it looks like fun. Sadly by the time xsplit managed to start he was gone and I couldnt get video of him flying and teleporting around.

Good thread, 3 spam is almost as bad as heartseeker spam, but at least you get an evade or something.

http://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714/b/418951961
Here’s your video from yesterdayish, its 5.5 hours long, why dont you show us all the people you fight in it without having superior numbers compared to them. And all the 1v1 fights you engage in and dont run from after your initial burst fails to kill them.

Mindtrick.5190:

Edit: oh and that post was disrespectful, stay classy

Your first response to this thread about sPVP thieves in WvW was totally classy.

Mindtrick.5190:

I see a lot of people using spvp builds in wvw.

I’ve seen your stream, you run from 1v1s when you dont sneak up on people. This thread isnt for you and your style of gank people who arent paying attention play. I mean no disrespect, it’s just a difference of playstyle, this thread is for people who run into 1v5’s as the 1, love it, and want to be better at it.

Walker.3056:

Thanks

I forgot to mention that on top of all that, my set does at least 10% more damage, which means the things you fight do at least 10% less damage to you because they die faster and quit attacking you. So that can also be seen as at least 10% more toughness/vitality/sustain added on top of what I already have, which is already superior to his set.

shadowraith.9124:

That would be fantastic thank you. I want to get as close to those stat distributions on that thread as I can with the resources I have.

This is my official Exotic starter set
It uses all exotic gear with the correct exotics in place and corrected precision with cheap Oils and orbs.

Soldiers armor (except pants I believe) can be obtained with karma from merchants in the Orr temples if theyre cleared. Exotic soldiers back/rings can be obtained specifically from the temple of Grenth merchant. For pants/berserker armor/gold to buy divinity runes, start doing COF P1 and HOTW P1 everyday. Just run each one once, shouldnt take more than 30-45 minutes using GW2LFG.com to find a group. In 2-3 weeks you’ll have enough gold/tokens/etc to finish the good sets of the thread. I dont view that as really asking to much of someone. 30-45 min a day for 2-3 weeks is nothing. You’ll spend longer than that doing dailies to get ascended gear.

Just remember to use Dragonrolls instead of ghosts/pies as theyre vastly cheaper, but still give the same 66% life steal on crit and 70 precision.

Tots.3056:

that’s why we went for the trebs, they were worth more wxp than you guys were by that time.

I lol’d

Walker.3056:

So can anyone clear me one thing?

The calculator say: Effective Health = (Health × Armor)/(Reference Armor)

Soooo…. that means that a build has a higher survivle the higher its EHP get because on the EHP calc it already uses armor wich include toughness (toughness use to give ur damage reduction) therefore the EHP already counts the DR on its calculation

Soooo…. The higher EHP means higher survible no matter whats ur DR on the calc show because it already used it to create the EHP

Is it right? or i dont undertand something? thanks for the help

Technically, the more toughness you have, the less damage you take.

EHP is just your total HP and determines how much damage you can take before you die, if you have no sustain.

If you have a lot of sustain, a lot of toughness is the best way to stay alive. Since you take less damage from attacks, your sustain is worth more. I’ll explain by over exaggerating.
Lets say you have either 10k hp with 0% damage reduction or 5k hp with 50% damage reduction.
Either one will give you the ability to take 10k damage, and both have an effective HP pool of 10,000. Now, lets say you regen 500 HP a second, and take 1000 damage a second.
The first set will drop to 9000, regen to 9500, drop to 8500, regen to 9000, etc, until it dies. The second set will drop to 4500, then regen to 5000, then drop to 4500, then regen to 5000, etc, and never die. This is what aarias thinks is happening when he compare our sets, but it isnt.

It’s more like my set has 10k HP 30% damage redution, and regens 250hp/sec, and his set is 9k hp, 31% damage reduction and regens 200 hp/second.

aarias.4016:

Scenario 1 -
a) I’ve only taken 1% less damage in this scenario despite the fact that gw2buildcraft clearly shows that my Damage Reduction is nearly 5% greater than yours.

Thats because you fail at reading anything I post, and you dont know that I use the Mug set, and is what I was referring to as I said I was comparing it to what I actually use, and Ive mentioned a lot in this thread that I use the mug set.

aarias.4016:

b) Your set has somehow managed to out damage mine by 10%+ in this short burst despite the fact that my Legendary build has higher Power (2016 vs 2056), higher Crit. Damage (112% vs 102%), and higher Effective Power (4703 vs 4668). A miracle has surely occurred in this fictitious land of yours.

Because Omnom Ghosts dont add damage to paper math numbers given by that website. When you eventually learn paper math isnt the end all, I’ll be happy for you. But sure, lets compare. We’ll do BS > auto attack > CnD, a normal chain. And lets say our target has 3000 armor.

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
And since we’re determining average damage and have crit chance/damage, we’ll add those to the end as
* ((none-crit damage * none-crit chance) + (crit damage * crit chance))

Double Strike (1-1): 0.2775 x2
Wild Strike (1-2) – Lotus Strike (1-3): 0.847
Autoattack chain: 2.249
Stealthed – Backstab (front): 1.202
Stealthed – Backstab (back): 2.405
Cloak & Dagger: 1.624

Dagger Damage: 924-981
(924+981)/2=952.5
So we’ll use 952

2106 power, 46 crit chance, 112 crit damage + Mango Pie for you.
2056 power, 52 crit chance, 102 crit damage + Omnom Ghosts for me.

(952 * 2106 * 2.405* ((1 * 0) + (2.62 * 1)) /3000 =
4211.0503344 Your Backstab
((952 * 2056 * 2.405* ((1 * 0) + (2.52 * 1)) /3000) + (344 * .66 * 1) =
4181.2017024 My Backstab

(952 * 2106 * 2.249* ((1 * .54) + (2.62 * .46)) /3000 =
2623.06299266 Your Auto Attack Chain
((952 * 2056 * 2.249* ((1 * .48) + (2.52 * .52)) /3000) + ((344 * .66 * .52) * 3) =
2981.2928298 My Auto Attack Chain

(952 * 2106 * 1.624* ((1 * .54) + (2.62 * .46)) /3000 =
1894.11040466 Your Cloak and Dagger
((952 * 2056 * 1.624* ((1 * .48) + (2.52 * .52)) /3000) + (344 * .66 * .52) =
2015.0938538 My Cloak and Dagger

4211.0503344 + 2623.06299266 + 1894.11040466 =
8728.22373172 Your Total Damage
4181.2017024 + 2981.2928298 + 2015.0938538 =
9177.588386 My Total Damage

9177.588386 / 8728.22373172 = 1.05148408979
So I guess the set you randomly decided to use instead of the one I was talking about is actually only 5.15%~ Better damage than the set you use. And thats when I intentionally swing numbers more into your favor.

aarias.4016:

c) Given that the damage taken was low enough that it is likely to be totally healed by one CnD, and the evidence above that my build would actually out damage yours on the initial burst (see point b) I’d guess that my build would come out ahead in this scenario.

Oh ya? I guess I should trust you since you’re so capable of understanding math and game mechanics and understand all that is required to determine that your set out damages mine.

OH… wait… you were wrong, and I proved it by typing out the math, and I didnt even add any health gained from my omnom ghosts to my HP bar as extra damage (which would of put this set 13% ahead of you and is the entire basis of using them over other foods). I wonder what else you’re wrong about…

Anyway, this is to long and I quit caring again.

Edited for spelling and making it easier to understand.

Azraeel.1238:

I’m not sure if you took into consideration the fact that he is healing every second, while you aren’t.

My set heals more than his if you spend half your time stealth and half out. Spend most of your time out and it heals 2x as much.

Azraeel.1238:

But in any case, talking theory is totally different than the real deal. The scenarios you suggested are faulty to some extent, why so? Think of it this way, let us assume that the same person is playing in both sets. The person has a habit of using “Hide in Shadows” every time his health goes to 50%, does it matter if his health was 15k or 14k?

The persons damage output would be higher with my set, and he would be able to stay out of stealth longer until he reached 50% HP with it as well.

Azraeel.1238:

Moreover, his toughness is more than yours, assuming you got zerged by mostly melee players, he should sustain more damage than you. Do you see what I’m trying to say here?

Effective HP is a combination of toughness and vitality, my sets EHP and damage is higher. So my set can take more of a beating before dieing while doing more damage. Beyond that, his set doesnt actually have more sustain than mine.

Azraeel.1238:

There are so many factors, that is just hard to take into consideration such scenarios.

Well when you come out of stealth and fight people those are the only scenarios that occur, why is it so difficult to take them into account? You either take so little damage it doesnt matter, you get super CC zerged and die, or you have a long drawn out fight where EHP and Damage are the things that let you win. Or you run away, I guess I didnt account for that…

aarias.4016:

For the sake of argument, I’ll compare my Legendary build with your Fall #1 build.

…..because thats totally the set I use. But hey lets compare them. You don’t even know that you spec 10 into vit for the fall damage trait, or that blind on stealth is brokenly overpowered for /dagger. So Im sure you need all that toughness to mitigate the mass of hits from none-blinded people who can track you with their auto attack when you stealth.

The only thing that really matters is when fighting tough opponents. When fighting them, you need all the EHP and damage you can squeeze out to avoid them being able to sustain the fight indefinitely. My set offers superior values to yours for this. Try to spin it anyway you like with how after you fail miserably at mitigating damage and take 3x your base HP worth of damage your set mitigates more, but while you take that 3x your base HP in damage, my set would of let you kill 1-2 extra people and get stomps on them mitigating even more damage than yours, because those people would of been dead and not attacking you.

Ok, lets examine scenarios.

You pop out of stealth, hit someone a bit and go back in, with my set you take 1000 damage, 990 with your set. With my set you push out 10k damage, and with yours you push out 9000 damage. While we’re back in stealth/fighting all of our HP is regened while using either set. Which set did better?

Scenario 2, you pop out of stealth and get zerged the crap down for 20500 EHP worth of damage then restealth. My set can deal with this and still leave you with 2k HP so you can run away/heal/hide in stealth to try and regen HP/etc. With your set, youre downed and get stomped. Which set did better?

Next scenario, you pop out of stealth, and fight someone to try and down them until you get to 3k HP, then go back to hiding in stealth. With your set you can do 20k damage with this, and with mine you could do 26k or more, which has a higher chance to down the guy?

Next scenario, youre fighting some super well played bunker whose heal keeps coming off cooldown right as you finally manage to do enough damage to almost down him. Keeping in mind my set lets you fight longer and does more damage, which set would perform better?

Now lets say youre fighting some guys and using perma stealth to hide from them, but theyre all bad and glass cannons, but they manage to do 3k~ damage to you each time you pop out of stealth, then you go back to hiding in stealth to regen it all. Which set does better?

The last example is the only time your set would do better. When you hide in stealth and are not fighting, but take a bunch of damage every time you come out, then hide in stealth to regen it all back. But that only applies if you regen more EHP during that time than my set would give you. I dont know why youre having such a hard time understanding this simple thing.

Look at the video I posted for instance on page 1. It follows the first scenario almost to a T. I only take as much damage as I regen, do you really think your set would be more useful there? Well, I actually take less than I can regen…

NO UNDERBOOB!?!?
You fail at style.
Your legendaries are crying.
You should jump off that cliff and kill yourself.

Apparently the guy above me is mad you have more spending money than he does. lol. (My post is a joke if you dont get it btw)

aarias.4016:

First of all, I’m not sure what this “my set wins” stuff is about.

Its about you saying your sets backstab damage is higher. Which is not true for the set that matters, the one with ascended gear.

but you need to accept the fact that myself (and I’m sure others as well) WILL value this increase in survivability during “long” fights and choose a toughness based build over a similar vitality based build.

Your idea is fundamentally flawed.

If youre fighting things, and not taking that much damage, more EHP is better, because it gives you more to start out with and youre refilling it every time between strikes in stealth anyway. The only way more toughness at the costs of EHP and vit works better is if you sit out of stealth for a long time and take more damage than you can reasonably deal with repeatedly and then stay in stealth for long periods of time to regen it all. Which is basically a bad play style, because hiding in stealth means not killing things. It would be better to have more EHP so you can stay out of stealth longer to kill things. Plus youd do more damage with more EHP, making your “am I killing them or are they killing me factor” swing vastly better in your favor and allowing you to win more fights.

My actual set btw, is 1% less damage reduction than yours, 1556 toughness instead of 1596, but I have 1369 vit instead of 1236, so 1330 more HP which combined with the WvW HP boost is more effective than you’re letting on.

I advocate Candied Dragonrolls (or Omnomberry Ghosts/Pies) Which gives just slightly more HP per second than mango pies if you spend 50% of your time fighting and 50% in stealth. It also adds that regen to your damage, and wins by more the more time you spend attacking compared to time spent in stealth. Its over double the effectiveness if you simply dont cower in stealth and spend most of your time fighting people out of stealth like I do, stealth is just a trigger for backstab or for running away. My real gear set has the same staying power yours does, but mine will have much better damage output in a practical setting.

As for the rest, I already said Im not going to argue about it. You can have your opinion but Im done talking about it. More EHP and damage is better for my playstyle of fighting things and winning. If you like to sit in stealth half the time to regen your HP after you lose it all and fail to down people, thats on you.

aarias.4016:

If you want to look at the Legendary sets (my original reply was discussing the exotic set, in which crit. damage for my build is actually higher than that of your version), then yes, your version provides marginally higher crit. damage (~1%).

Since you dont quite seem to get it. My set has less crit damage than yours does, but my backstab damage is greater than yours, because the power in my build is worth more than the crit damage in yours. The damage on all my other skills is higher as well. If you want to look at the exotic sets (lol why? this is suppose to be about final sets)
2006*2.52=5055
2093*2.42=5065
My set still wins.

EDIT: My bad, your set is 104 crit damage. Hurray for double checking after posting.
Your exotic (only) set wins for Backstab damage, but not overall damage.
2006*2.54=5095

aarias.4016:

IMO, beyond a certain base amount of Vitality required to avoid getting “one shot”, toughness is the better defensive stat when a regular source of healing is available.

Im not going to argue any math you didnt show your work for, or whether or not your build has enough HP. But, I don’t think it does, I think mango pie is pretty bad, I think not picking blind on stealth is completely foolish for /dagger since it’s so blantantly overpowered (play with it while fighting a group and see for yourself), I also think its not worth giving up so much damage outside of backstab to gain toughness for no reason when your HP is so low. All that said, it’s just a playstyle difference, but mine will function better than yours when it really matters, like when you get into those ohshi—- situations and are running away without stealth, or intentionally kiting overly large groups and leaving yourself visible to separate squirrels out of the pack, or when youre like, doing damage and attacking stuff.

Cavalier is bad. You should only look at gear with Power as the main stat or you will always be giving up damage compared to what you could be using. And theres no P/t/crit d gear, so youre stuck with combinations of soldiers or valk with berserkers only. If you want max damage and some amount of survivability and your backstab does 75% of your damage (only possible if you do no attacks other than CnD and BS and run hidden killer) Youll want to wear all berserker gear, then mix in valkyrie anywhere until youre happy with your survivability. If you do attacks besides BS and CnD, youll want to put soldiers gear in stat maximizing slots until youre happy with survivability, and maybe 1-2 pieces of valk, then use all berserkers.

If you want math or specifics you’ll have to read my thread linked 2 posts up, but it’ll take awhile.

aarias.4016:

With all do respect, Cavalier gear is no better or worse than any other gear. It has stats, and if they are the ones you’re looking for, it is as good as anything else.

Your changes seem to attempt to turn my build into the one you’ve come up with for yourself: that’s not really helpful.

You’ve traded Toughness for Vitality which I think is a poor substitute in a build with lots of health regen, and your version has 12% lower crit. damage than mine. EP is 60 points higher in your (Exotic) version, but that is misleading since we all know how much of the DPS for this build comes from the Backstab – keeping this in mind, the 12% higher crit. damage is a much larger overall boost to DPS.

Your set:
2106 power, 112 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
My set for you:
2210 power, 102 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
2106*2.62=5517
2210*2.52=5569

If you want to argue toughness over vit for regen or whatever I wont argue, but there comes a point where toughness is vastly less useful compared to your HP. Your set has like 12.5k HP base, thats really low.

This is my official Exotic starter set
It uses all exotic gear with the correct exotics in place and corrected precision with cheap Oils and orbs.

Superior Rune of the Wurm – 30/30/10 – with corrected Precision

Superior Rune of the Wurm – 10/30/30 – with corrected Precision

Wurm Runes are my official cheap ascended set, these do better than stuff using Orbs.

aarias.4016:

Here is my build (both exotic and legendary variants) if anyone is interested…

Exotic-

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j|1i.67.1i.67.1i.67.1i.67.1g.67.1i.67|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.2|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

Legendary-

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j|2v.d13.2v.d13.2s.d13.2v.d13.2s.d13.2s.d13|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.1|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

Cavalier is so bad =/
Exotic:
Effective Power 4319.05
Effective Health (EHP) 20123
Effective Power 4381.28
Effective Health (EHP) 21950
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1c.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j|1g.67.1c.67.1c.67.1g.67.1g.67.1c.67|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.2|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

Legendary:
Effective Power 4703.91
Effective Health (EHP) 20284
Effective Power 4836.22
Effective Health (EHP) 21572
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j|2s.d13.2t.d13.2s.d13.2t.d13.2s.d13.2s.d13|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.1|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

I removed your cavalier gear for you.

Or you could all just stop crying.

OMG guys, we cant have ascended gear for badges because PVE players will do JPs and get 40~ badges a day, and in 3-4 weeks have enough to get one. My God, the tragedy.

Ive only had one used against me once I think… but Im not sure, the guy did the crouch animation, then I stunned/killed him. It wouldnt really affect me though at this point. Ive switched to using sword in my weapon swap, and I almost never stealth when playing with it. Which I find myself doing more and more now, so I even dreamed up a no stealth sword build I will be trying out soonish. I played it against people in my guild in sPVP today and it did alright, even though they stomped me a lot =3

Deniara Devious.3948:

So let me rephrase this logic:
1. Everybody should play a thief to learn to counter them. And equip their character accordingly. Or they deserve to die to a button masher

If youre having problems with a class, then yes, this is the first thing you should do. Its not like looking up a build, watching youtube videos for 20-30 min to get a decent idea what to do and then taking it into sPVP for an afternoon is hard or anything…

Learning about other classes moves and how to counter them and knowing ahead of time what theyre likely to do is something good players find to be a standard thing to do. You wanna go into a fight and mash buttons and not care what your opponent does and still win I see, so I guess this skill based game isnt for you, have you ever thought about Hello Kitty Island Advanture? I think that might be more your speed since you dont want to put in any effort to learning about what the classes youll be fighting can do.

Caffynated.5713:

1. Thief has mediocre mobility

A thiefs ability to move from point A to point B is slower than most other classes, the only reason people think this isnt true is because you cant always tell which direction a thief is moving, and they have a habit of turning 90 degrees after stealthing to confuse their pursuers.

Colt.9051:

Had a fun time in DR BLs just a few moments ago. Was looking to do just a mini roam before I went to sleep but I stumbled upon a lone commander of ours building seige to take Greenlake, so I thought to may as well help with that and tag up too. Met with no opposition so we took Lake. Saw some friends from XOXO and tM around the Bay area around then so the two of us held our corner and had our own fun fighting over lowlands :P By the time things calmed down, NSP was gone but oddly so were DR, so we took it upon ourselves to take the Redbriar tower as well. By the time us 2 had the entire south side taken, we were responded to by a good 10ish man group so yeah… our fun didn’t last long xD (Great fight for Redbriar btw :P) Still had fun sitting with a few uplvls after everyone calmed down enough not to chase me into spawn :P Still tho, for 2 ppl to take the entire south side before any response was made is pretty amazing, lol. Wake up DR!

Oh ya, that was fun too, it’s been a blast moving my mule to your server for awhile and just doing random things because no one is around and I can.

This is all I have to say to this thread.

Chopps.5047:

Lawl, <3 rav, BG strategy on reset night was bonkers; they must really not like us.

I’d bet money they did it to try and demoralize JQ because theyre afraid if they come in third all their new guilds will abandon them.

windrunner.5690:

Funny, noone called tsym bandwagoners when they first moved to SoR.. in fact, many gave them props for not following every other SoS guild to BG, and not choosing the server with the highest chance of winning. Now that SoR is winning it’s a totally different story. LOL

thanks for the laugh

Tsym moved to SOR to kill everyone from SOS who bandwagoned off and called them bad words and blamed them for SOS falling apart. I don’t find that to be bandwagoning. At least, that was my impression of why they moved =3

LilMcGinley.3890:

ANet is honestly in a kitten if you do, kitten if you don’t" situation. People ask for balanced match-ups, they work the glicko to give us them, now we ask for different, balanced match-ups, I hope they figured something out, but I think the ability for different, balanced match-ups is not possible with a tier system.

Im hoping they start matching the NA and EU servers up against each other to give “new opponents.”

DevonCarver.5370:

I almost got this lack ascended gear in WvW fixed![/quote]

Seriously, ascended back items are left out? You have a week, please hurry and add them so I dont have to do fractals, or add something specific to WvW like weapons to force PVE players into it like we’re forced to do their stuff.

Ungood.3054:

So far.. lets see the sides:

The need to revise Thief: The mechanic of being able to do high DPS mixed with stealth, gives a class an unfair advantage in combat. Combine this with the class having the means to quickly engage and disengage from combat, make it a very unbalanced class to fight in WvW.

Thief Defense: L2P Noob.

Lovely discussion you have going on here.

Can I tell you to L2Read then? I posted like a 15,000 word essay on how to kill thieves. An Anet DEV even posted about how to kill thieves and said they were bad. What more do you even want? L2P

Deniara Devious.3948:

I am sad to hear that you lost lots of people, but probably not as much as Desolation. We are outmanned even at prime time at our own borderlands. Here is quote from yesterday from our map chat from a fellow commander: “I am sick of 2 vs 20”.

Then move to NA T1 if you want balanced fights. send 40-50 active players to JQ, then like 30ish to BG, I think that might even up the EU numbers, thanks. If that doesnt do it send some more where theyre needed. When I talked to a guy in Iron about how they wanted to move here, thats exactly what I told them. Go ahead and move here, but tell your friends to move to the other NA servers, theres like no one on during EU except the crazy asian BG transfers who stay up all night.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I actually sincerely hope that the the top 4 tiers of NA will become as imbalanced as EU tier #1 and tier #9 has been for months.

Thats a pretty horrible thing to say, even Iron couldnt hack it and left. And seriously, you guys on Deso asked for it. How long were you recruiting for because you wanted to go to T1 and try your luck against what you knew those frenchies were like? You could of not recruited so much and stayed in T3 or whatever and had your balanced match up. You made your own bed and all that.

Clerics!
123456789012345

I just charge at them and smack them around with my greatssword and they run away or die.

I use 0 0 10 30 30 which I heard the name of, but I forget now. Lots of shouts and boon duration and shouts convert conditions to boons and a mix of cleric/soldiers gears, bit more soldiers than clerics. As long as you can stay on top of the real mesmer, they die eventually and youll be fine.

Lokheit.7943 on a different forum posted this stuff::

“I was checking the Ranger forum to see if I could find more information in the upcoming Ranger buff mentioned on gw2guru interview, and I found this bit that is basically the same we’ve been telling all the time to Thief haters, only that this time comes from a dev (which gives him lots of credibility) and a dev that is usually found on Ranger forums (so not particularly a Thief lover or someone who doesn’t wants his profession to be nerfed).

Very wise words and as I said it’s basically the same we’ve been telling for ages to all those players screaming for Thief nerfs instead of trying to learn to counter one of the less versatile classes in the game and probably the most predictable of them all:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

VitalSuit.1980:

Thieves as well? I hope this is only for pve and not pvp because thieves are the last thing that needs a buff.

Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily. As a ranger I shut thieves down all the time who don’t use venoms, especially if you have something like healing spring and Lightning reflexes. One fixes stun, one fixes immob/cripple, and then it’s just dodge rolls at the right moment and CC to shut them down. Also bring wolf for f2 and stay nearby when thieves start doing their stealthy bit, and then be ready to watch them flee in terror.
That of course means their build options are highly limited, and when that happens people can hard counter you more easily.

The changes for rangers coming in this next patch are a step in the right direction for them. I am not part of that team so I won’t be announcing any of the changes unless told otherwise.

And he’s able to counter thieves with a Ranger, one of the professions in most need of a buff, so imagine how well one of the strong classes can counter a Thief when the player learns to predict them instead of calling for nerfs without even trying to guess an strategy to beat a super predictable Thief.

Thanks Robert Hrouda for this, we really needed this from someone whose opinion wouldn’t be dismissed as if he was trying to save his class from nerfing."

TLDR: An Anet DEV can kill thieves just fine on his poopy ranger, you guys need to L2P.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-haters-take-this-wisdom-from-a-dev/first

Rezzet.3614:

wish.3102:

Sunflowers.1729:

According to your argument, why not give everyone the ability to use Shadow Refuge (with certain caveats, to prevent abuse)?

Snow leopard form is better than refuge, and open to all classes (just roll a norn). Did you miss my posts about it? Basically you roll a norn, set snowleopard, and now when you want to run away you simply pop it, hit 5, then hold down 4. In less than 3 seconds you are now far enough away to break combat and they have no idea where you went.

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

I don’t play munchkin classes, sorry, but flavor of the month is not my flavor at all. Why don’t you show us a vid you owning a thief instead, I’ll go get the popcorn ready.

As I said earlier, point me to free recording software that doesnt suck, and I will.

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

Block/dodge rolls/etc, then the thief has nothing and is easy to kill.

yeah i forgot we have infinite dodge rolls

/sarcasm

Use them when you need them instead of spamming it for no reason if you cant always keep vigor up? Seems easy enough to me and I have no issues on my guardian.

Sunflowers.1729:

According to your argument, why not give everyone the ability to use Shadow Refuge (with certain caveats, to prevent abuse)?

Snow leopard form is better than refuge, and open to all classes (just roll a norn). Did you miss my posts about it? Basically you roll a norn, set snowleopard, and now when you want to run away you simply pop it, hit 5, then hold down 4. In less than 3 seconds you are now far enough away to break combat and they have no idea where you went.

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

I don’t play munchkin classes, sorry, but flavor of the month is not my flavor at all. Why don’t you show us a vid you owning a thief instead, I’ll go get the popcorn ready.

As I said earlier, point me to free recording software that doesnt suck, and I will.

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

Block/dodge rolls/etc, then the thief has nothing and is easy to kill.

Zackie.8923:

I usually accept because i like to engage in trash talk.

i am after all a forum warrior/troll

I agree with this guy, I always accept and make fun of people.
I also find it funny to invite people, then ask why they invited me.

Vespirisa.1497:

Aurust.8961:

Vash.9183:

To my knowledge, there is no other guilds transferring in. There is only members of the newer guilds that are trying to help the rest of their guild transfer. Like [Omen] and [FIRE], they are not done transferring.

FIRE is leaving JQ? This was from page 5 of the tier 2 thread….

Yup they started transfering in today

You’re probably just confused, there’s like 8 guilds with the tag FIRE.

Narcosis.3812:

wish.3102:

oxide.8324:

I guess JQ has imploded :/ 70 ppt on reset

Its not a big deal, thats what happens when you get 2v1’d on every map. Its not like we didnt have people and didnt fight. Heck, on the map I was on (SOR BL) BG came directly to hills instead of taking bay on their starting side just to prevent us from taking it. I heard this happened on every map too. It makes me proud to know BG is so scared of us they have to completely shoot themselves in the foot for the first few hours just to try and stop us. But hey it could be worse, the best NA guild ever could of stayed to fight when we were outmanned instead of running from us, thanks for letting us keep our 1 camp TW, we appreciate it.

Refreshing to know that JQQ hasn’t changed

My post was obviously just a hidden poke at TW, maybe you didnt get it? lol

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

Always drop all AOEs you have and auto attack inside shadow refuge, if you have pulls/pushes use them inside of it too. Unless youre low and he was close to full and youre by yourself. At this point if a refuge goes down, run away, hes stuck inside of it til it dissappears, and this is your chance to escape, use everything you can to get away.

You need to always have a stun break move too. Always. If you get bask venomed, (turned grey and cant move) use it, otherwise, dont use it, no matter what else the thief does. Bask venom has a 40 ish second timer on it, remember that.

These tactics work against 99% of thieves you guys say you have problems with and make them die. And if they dont, the thief probably has a timed rotation he is using, once you learn it, you can avoid it. Simply rotate through the strategies and always do a blind/block/dodge roll at 3 seconds after revealed has happened to him, force him to stealth attack your face, and if he outplays you, dont feel bad, because he would of outplayed you on any class.

If youre a guardian or ele or some other boon using bunker class, and the thief has a sword, you cannot go toe to toe with him, even though hes not bothering to stealth against you. You need to be mobile and burn blinds and dodges and blocks when he spins around you, but not til the attack lands. The next attack is the one that steals your boons, and makes him able to laugh at you and melee you down even though youre super bunker and hes built as a complete glass cannon.

I put a lot of effort into these posts when I would normally be playing a video game for fun. You guys better appreciate it.

These “magic times” as I will call them occur at very specific intervals 99% of the time. To dodge stealth attacks you need to time it correctly and play smart. A d/d or s/d thief who went stealth will attack you in 3 seconds, from behind, if he stealths on you with cloak and dagger. To avoid this simply run whichever direction your facing when he used the ability for 3 seconds, then dodge roll. After this he will try to cloak and dagger you or waste a utility to restealth. Unless he’s a bad thief, if hes a bad thief he will backstab you as youre running after like a second, then spam heartseeker because he thinks you were running. At this point you hit your block if you have a long duration one or dodge again if you dont, then attack him, after 3 seconds from his blackstab hit do a block or blind or dodge roll and he will miss cloak and dagger and be out of initiative and easy to just lay into and kill. If he waited the full 3 seconds, he’s not horrible and youll need to play smarter, hit him til you see the CnD animation, then dodge. And if he ever runs straight at you, hes going to CnD, and you should dodge forward when he gets close. Forward being the correct way to go about it. Most people are bad, and cant camera turn fast and youll be able to get a few hits in while has no initiative and is confused by your actions.

D/P thief will attack you 2 seconds after the smoke field on the ground dissappears. When he drops the smoke field, run away, when it goes away, dodge roll after 2 seconds. I guarantee you 99% of the time, the thief will miss backstab and be out of stealth chasing you right after you dodge roll. And then it will drop another smoke field, at this point run into the smoke field. ya, seems stupid right? but after you do that, hit your blind/block, so he cant restealth and cant backstab you. This will cripple what he is trying to do, and 2 seconds later he will appear far away from you or be running away and close to you, be sure to attack to remove blind, and then CC him and burst him. Repeat these steps and you wont lose.

For D/P thief, if youre not using heavy conditions removal, a thief or a mesmer, youre basically screwed, just run away. But the trick to them is they do 2 things. Dodge rolls on top of you to cripple you, and every 3~ seconds shoot many times to apply lots of bleed from stealth, which you need to dodge roll and take 1 shot from, to reveal him and not take much damage. After that he will shoot 3 times, then try to CnD you, which you need to dodge away from to waste his initiative if you want to win the fight.

Another thing I will mention is if he has an offhand dagger, and isnt attacking you from stealth, hes removing the revealed penalty at the cost of his damage. This doesnt happen often, but a thief doing this is in real trouble. It depends on the situation, but if hes doing it, hes hurting. What you need to do here is realize that his stealths last for 3-4 seconds, and after that he will be trying to CnD you again after hes visible. If you can dodge 1 CnD at this point, he will either try and run away, at which point you should use any CC you have and do all your damage to him because he has nothing. or he will simply CnD some random mob around you, which gives you the chance to distance yourself from him. Because he cannot chase you at this point, simply run 5 seconds away from that mob and watch for him to appear close to you, at which point he overcommited and you can dodge his CnD you see coming then kill him easy, or he will have run away.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Juxtapositronic.1405:

If thieves are a problem for you in wvw then you are doing one of three things: 1.) You are being afk. 2.) You have some terribad spec. 3.) Your gearing is wrong.

One might also put this other way round, if a thief is squishy, he must be doing it wrong:
1) wrong traits and 2) wrong gear

Many thief players tell that they are squishy, but that is because they didn’t invest much anything on defense, yet they use this same argument to tell you “thief is balanced, because it is so squishy”. Funnily these same guys will tell you that your gear is wrong and that you should have at least 25k health and 3k armor or you deserve to die to a thief… I can imagine how many of those thieves players are running that high armor and health: NONE!

Prime example of double morale.

Im going to reply to this specifically. You do not need 25k HP and 3k armor to fight a thief and win. what you need is sustain. You need ways to mitigate his attacks, to make him waste all his initiative and use all his cooldowns. It’s really not a hard thing to do, and I will explain exactly what you need.

First, you need enough armor and HP to survive an entire burst rotation from a GC thief who isnt specced entirely into wasting all his abilities then crushing you, because you cant do that, these magic numbers are about 15k HP and 2600 armor. I know this because thats what my thief has, and I live through that poop just fine.

The next thing you need to have is the ability to block or blind, and learn how to counter his abilities and make him use his initiative. You need to time your dodge rolls/blinds/blocks so they happen right before he would exit stealth if youre at low HP to avoid the incoming damage, or right when he would go into stealth, the second being the superior choice, as missing a cloak and dagger leaves the thief with half his initiative gone and out of stealth and basically forces him to burn his heal or shadow refuge.

Ungood.3054:

Also, “Fight Club” means you know it’s it’s coming and what you are facing, In Real WvW you have no idea if, when, where, or by what, you are going to get hit. That is why a Thief being able to strike from invsi means you get zero warning of anything coming at all, and end up literally taking massive damage out of nowhere.

If a thieves initial attack against you is from stealth, theyre a bad player and you deserve to die if you do. Good thieves dont initiate fights from stealth, as that requires using one of their 2 utilities for stealth to do so, and removes them as escape options if bad things happen.

They also dont run up to you in stealth. Learn to look around and pay attention as you run. Honestly, most people dont ever look behind them as they run, and on thief and guardian I catch people all the time and start the fight before they know a fight is going to happen. I often find myself running behind them for long periods of time to catch them as well. The only thing you really have to watch for or be told about is hiding places. There are many, many places you can hide and do things you probably shouldnt be able to do, especially with a sword main handed. These are the main things that happens to people and why they think thieves sneak up on them in stealth.

Deniara Devious.3948:

And that is in EU tier #1, which probably has a bit higher level of play you have in NA. E.g. the thief in your screen shot is trying to run away along the road. Here they usually shadowstep away and stealth. One of our Desolation guilds, IRON, recently moved to Sanctum of Rally. Just one guild. Look how fast SoR is now rising up in your tier and might soon take the #1 spot, despite it was #3 a week ago just before IRON arrived there.

Iron is a zerg guild that fights outmanned teams on every BL when theyre on. That doesnt take much skill. Combine this with the fact that before they moved JQ lost lots of people, and only has enough to cover 2.5 zones during NA time (and half of one during EU), and you see SOR has a huge coverage lead during EU to take everything, then has full Q’s on every map during NA time to hold it all, and you see they tick at 350+ from EU to late at night NA, thats why SOR winning so much.

Now Im not saying Iron is bad or anything, but theyre just a zerg guild with high numbers who takes everything against very little opposition, of course they make a huge impact.

Ungood.3054:

Forzani.2584:

Most people can handle losing. They know they will never be the best player but still have fun. Thieves suck the fun right out of WvW

Win or lose, for most people, it’s not fun fighting an enemy that can constantly go invisable.

/Thread.

This really hits the heart of the matter and the core of the problem.

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

Sin.4130:

@whis31.02

Put on some videos, that kind of screenshots can be made by everyone, especially in 2 vs 1 combat as your party mate is just behind you. Then you can spam L2P on forum without being ridiculous.

There are no allies around me, as can be seen in the SS’s minimap. Tell me a free program that can record video and not look like poop and I will record what I can.

RyuDragnier.9476:

All they need to do is adjust how stealth works, and the thief class will no longer be so OP. Make it so any attack the one in stealth throws out that is blocked or evaded immediately throws them out of stealth and gives them reveal. That’s pretty much all stealth needs to actually not be so OP. Because as of right now you can dodge an attack perfectly and all it does to the one in stealth is make him shrug and go for another attack while in stealth…which is what makes stealth OP. You make it so a failed attack gives reveal, and grats, you’ve nerfed stealth just the right amount and made all this QQing about thieves being OP most likely go away.

That one attack comes at the end of stealths duration/right after it wears off. Theres no need for this as it wouldnt change anything, L2P, and L2count to 3, then dodge if its d/d or s/d 2 if its d/p 4 if its p/d. Another good point is that dodging or blinding or aegis at 3 seconds after they reveal is how you win. Thief is all about how the player uses his timing to stealth and attack, it runs on 3 second intervals 99% of the time, and its easy to counter. L2P

Heibi.4251:

Also, if they happen to be in the way of direct fire weapon or attack, it SHOULD hit them. They aren’t vapor.

It does hit them, L2P.

Sunflowers.1729:

-Run away (contrary to popular Thief opinion, I don’t consider this ‘losing’. It’s a draw)

A thief running away is a victory for the opponents because its the thief admitting they cant win.

@butski, TheGreatA, Moon, I love you guys!

Deniara Devious.3948:

Geiir.7603:

One more thing: thief has no access to Aegis – except from the steal skill from a Mesmer

Yes it has, every profession has! I should maybe say “learn to play”, but I won’t. I am gonna teach you instead:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Monk
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Lyssa

Most people who are in these forums defending stealth, thief and telling “learn to play” don’t in fact have that good knowledge of this game. They think they are better players than the average, when they aren’t. But that is okay. I wish they had guts to admit that they are wrong.

I stomp the kitten out of every thief I find on my guardian. L2P and you too can kill thieves.

This was the only thief I ran into 1v1 or 1v2 today, but look at my slot skills, endurance, and HP. Does it look like this thief gave me any trouble at all? You guys are just bad. (Also, I did kill this thf, but the SS of him being down is ugly) (I took this SS because I like to take pics of people who run from me now)

oxide.8324:

I guess JQ has imploded :/ 70 ppt on reset

Its not a big deal, thats what happens when you get 2v1’d on every map. Its not like we didnt have people and didnt fight. Heck, on the map I was on (SOR BL) BG came directly to hills instead of taking bay on their starting side just to prevent us from taking it. I heard this happened on every map too. It makes me proud to know BG is so scared of us they have to completely shoot themselves in the foot for the first few hours just to try and stop us. But hey it could be worse, the best NA guild ever could of stayed to fight when we were outmanned instead of running from us, thanks for letting us keep our 1 camp TW, we appreciate it.