Guild Wars 2

i was hoping to see a change to offhand dagger and the shadow arts trait line
D/P will stay meta and the strongest set for thieves i guess

no buff or love for the D/D users…

Burtnik.5218:

DHawk.2687:

Malchior.5732:

DHawk.2687:

Malchior.5732:

DHawk.2687:

Burtnik.5218:

I dont have to when you even know your own class, in quote

“if you see the blind field, walk into it, making his heartseaker hit you reavealing him”.

At this point you cannot be taken serious, amber. Bai.

Ps. i dont play gw anymore

just shows you don’t have a clue what I’m talking about
a thief will heartseaker through the field multiple times
first time if he hits you he will yes stealth, but even then oftenly reveal himself because of automatic auto attack that some ppl have
and yes they will HS 2 or 3 times

….I’m sure a lot of Thieves turn off auto-attack for that very reason. We shouldn’t consider revealing themselves as the default situation because most good Thieves wont let it happen at all.
Now, they don’t HAVE to HS 2 or 3 times. If they know it’ll get them revealed, a single combo is enough to make some distance and then do it again.

I’m questioning your knowledge of Thief.

what is was saying was in the context of how to counter a thiefs stealth, not the way i play, but the way most thieves play, and most thieves are bad
I was counting up several situations where and how you can counter stealth because some ppl still act like it’s the most op thing in the game
which it’s not
try reading what the discussion is about first

We don’t consider garbage players when discussing things.
Try again.

well then 90% of the rev community shouldn’t be posting here atm

We have 4 regular posters on this section. Rest are some garbage randoms like you who jumps in and complain about anything really. At this point you should follow your own advice and stop posting here, for ppl like you theres a section called “PvP” which contains bunch of crying kids, you seems to fit there. Have a good day

lol first you talk kitten and give out only wrong info and kitten about systems not even in the game and when you have someone who doesn’t even know what our entire discussion was about backing you up you suddenly grow balls?
This game is unbalanced from top to bottom, that is why so many ppl are leaving gw
can’t wait to see 80% of the rev community reroll to the next op class as soon as you get nerfed, make sure you have a scrapper or necro ready

Malchior.5732:

DHawk.2687:

Malchior.5732:

DHawk.2687:

Burtnik.5218:

I dont have to when you even know your own class, in quote

“if you see the blind field, walk into it, making his heartseaker hit you reavealing him”.

At this point you cannot be taken serious, amber. Bai.

Ps. i dont play gw anymore

just shows you don’t have a clue what I’m talking about
a thief will heartseaker through the field multiple times
first time if he hits you he will yes stealth, but even then oftenly reveal himself because of automatic auto attack that some ppl have
and yes they will HS 2 or 3 times

….I’m sure a lot of Thieves turn off auto-attack for that very reason. We shouldn’t consider revealing themselves as the default situation because most good Thieves wont let it happen at all.
Now, they don’t HAVE to HS 2 or 3 times. If they know it’ll get them revealed, a single combo is enough to make some distance and then do it again.

I’m questioning your knowledge of Thief.

what is was saying was in the context of how to counter a thiefs stealth, not the way i play, but the way most thieves play, and most thieves are bad
I was counting up several situations where and how you can counter stealth because some ppl still act like it’s the most op thing in the game
which it’s not
try reading what the discussion is about first

We don’t consider garbage players when discussing things.
Try again.

well then 90% of the rev community shouldn’t be posting here atm

Ragnarox.9601:

Your daredevil have like infinite dodge, you should try to use it, its that yellow bar divided 3 times.

DD is not brawler “in ya face dagger type”, you poke 9k dmg and then teleport out, poke again teleport. You should try and watch some youtube videos to understand your class before posting something unreasonable like this thread.

Ima laugh later xD

Malchior.5732:

DHawk.2687:

Burtnik.5218:

I dont have to when you even know your own class, in quote

“if you see the blind field, walk into it, making his heartseaker hit you reavealing him”.

At this point you cannot be taken serious, amber. Bai.

Ps. i dont play gw anymore

just shows you don’t have a clue what I’m talking about
a thief will heartseaker through the field multiple times
first time if he hits you he will yes stealth, but even then oftenly reveal himself because of automatic auto attack that some ppl have
and yes they will HS 2 or 3 times

….I’m sure a lot of Thieves turn off auto-attack for that very reason. We shouldn’t consider revealing themselves as the default situation because most good Thieves wont let it happen at all.
Now, they don’t HAVE to HS 2 or 3 times. If they know it’ll get them revealed, a single combo is enough to make some distance and then do it again.

I’m questioning your knowledge of Thief.

what is was saying was in the context of how to counter a thiefs stealth, not the way i play, but the way most thieves play, and most thieves are bad
I was counting up several situations where and how you can counter stealth because some ppl still act like it’s the most op thing in the game
which it’s not
try reading what the discussion is about first

Burtnik.5218:

I dont have to when you even know your own class, in quote

“if you see the blind field, walk into it, making his heartseaker hit you reavealing him”.

At this point you cannot be taken serious, amber. Bai.

Ps. i dont play gw anymore

just shows you don’t have a clue what I’m talking about
a thief will heartseaker through the field multiple times
first time if he hits you he will yes stealth, but even then oftenly reveal himself because of automatic auto attack that some ppl have
and yes they will HS 2 or 3 times

Burtnik.5218:

DHawk.2687:

slipppp

Actually i played thief a bit. Im not a expert with him but it doesnt matter really as d/p is ez mode as long you know what to do. Trying to 1v1 someone.. i mean.. why? Your job is to +1 and decap, the times where thief could go rambo mode and push out other zerk builds are gone, thief community been saying 3 years to zerker eles, mesmers, pewpew rangers and so on “l2p”. Well, guess what? L2p.

I have absolutely no sympathy for coward playstyle or it community which want to go and take 1v1 anyone cus they picked “assassin” class when they actually have no idea whatsoever what assassins actually was. Many games promotes assassin as 1v1 masterclass when in reality they would get their kitten beated hard by any “warrior”.. assassin are just that – sneak up, murder someone in sleep, poison food, sabotage etc. In straight open fight these guys are.. potatoes.

1&2 – I think its time to update your info. All you have to do is dodge through smoke field thanks to leap finisher from daredevil. Also last time i played thief i could hit someone with heartseeker and follow it up with backstab without getting revealed cus reasons.. aka stealth is applied after heartseeker hit. L2p on your part again

3 – Most of the time thats pointless as usually thief uses stealth to gtfo.
4 – You can chain it for longer and thats what most good thieves doing already..
5 – L2p issue, you never go stealth under channeled ability

As for rest of your crying, thief has tools to go into stealth from weapon skills alone that has.. wait for it, 0 cd. Usually access to invis comes with big tradeoffs like the Loki i mentioned – no gap closers outside of “elite” skill to spike squishy/low hp target down and no teamfight presence.

In other games you move slower, stealth breaks on taking hits etc. In comprasion gw2 its a joke really to even complain about reveal. In any serious pvp game reveal wouldnt be needed, 1 hit from my autoatk would break it.. Think about it before you start complaining about reveal again. In short, l2p, i wasted enough time for you.

as i said I’m sick of your bs
make a vid of you being as good as you claim with thief or log off, cause all you do is talk big with nothing behind it to back you up, good day to you sir

well i don’t relate decap bit** as how thief should be played
and +1ing is something rev can do as well

the best thing is, that thief is described as one of the deadliest 1v1 classes in the game, yet get’s owned by almost everything 1v1 in pvp
kinda sad how my fav class has been killed

what i think would fix the warrior more, well give it a better role is to remove every single invuln skill except for endure pain (skill) and the Guard elite invuln
don’t know about the endure pain trait, would rather have it reworked that it reduces the endure pain’s skills cd (e.g. CD is on 20sec, your health hits 25%, skill only has 10s or 5s of cd left) autoprocs are just killing the game imho
furthermore as soon as you nerf the power creep of basically every class but warri and thief (except for a few skills like vault and some that are just a bit too strong)
this imho would improve both the warri and the thief since both classes are suffering
what do you guys think?

Burtnik.5218:

Actually theres not much counterplay to stealth other than reveal, sry. Your hit get blocked, evaded and nothing happens, you wont get revealed aka not punished.. spam till you land eventually.

You dont get revealed when you take hit, you dont get revealed when you get cc and we dont know if we even hitting anyone in stealth unless its autoattack chain.. bc for whatever reason numbers doesnt show up. SR in theory has counterplay as you can aoe the little house but thats about it really.

Meanwhile in my game there are 3 classes with stealth. They all work different. For example;

Ao Kuang Teleports forward into Stealth, leaving behind a watery form of himself. He remains in Stealth for 5s or until he attacks or takes damage.

Loki disappears in a puff of smoke. While invisible, he moves faster, removes and gains immunity to Slow effects, and takes 25% less damage. << if you cc him he lose stealth, if you deal damage to him/apply DoT damage you can see where he is as damage numbers pop up on screen.

Now look at gw2 stealth. Ez mode without punishment. Lets also not forget that stealth itself is far more limited (Loki 4sec, Ao 5sec) on high cd compared to gw2. Its really silly to complain about reveal in this case.

shows that you have no clue how thief actually plays out, 1st of all, Shadow Refuge if you leave it before every pulse is over you get revealed and loose every second of stealth applied
meaning you can get knocked out, pulled, feared etc or just walk our port out half a second to early and get revealed
now to stealth in general, you have to seperate 2 situations, the target knows the thief is in stealth and he doesn’t know
if he doesn’t know stealth is strong, well either to get away or to have a decent engage burst
now when the target knows the thief is in stealth or about to stealth, there are several reveal skills and mechanics, but these aren’t even my main point
1. almost every thief plays dp, meaning if you see the blind field, walk into it, making his heartseaker hit you reavealing him
2. interrupt the heartseaker
3. burst the area he just stealthed in/drop aoe
4. average stealth uptime infight is 3 sec without reapplying
meaning wait those three seconds, move unpredictably while the time runs out, use autoattack/trashdamage on your position, dodge after 3 second, bs countered
5. there are uncountable channel skills that go through stealth, e.g. rapid fire (which will one hit a thief if he gets hit by every arrow (berserker thief)), true shot, Killshot etc

80% of the community act like stealth is an instant invuln enemy is just gone, doesn’t exist anymore, you can still hit him, you can still predict his movement, since you know for a fact he needs to come to you, thieves die instantly infight if they get hit a few times
if you just stand there waiting while the thief resets that is the “targets”/players fault, not the thiefs or the stealth mechanic, which is as i said very easy to outplay, just a l2p issue

Now classes that can use stealth: Druid, Ranger, DH, Scrapper, Engi, Mesmer, Chrono, Thief, DrD
Classes that have reveal: Scrapper, Druid, Ranger, DH, Revenant, Herald

Furthermore the thieves stealth skill all have very very high CD with very low Stealth time
and your post just shows that you have no clue about thieves in general
1. movementspeed increase only when traited (speed is the same as if with swiftness out of fight)
2. less dmg also only when traited
3. Removing condi only when traited
4. same with slow/different trait, has nothing to do with stealth
5. there are many ways of telling if you hit a stealthed opponent, sigil procs, boonprocs, the fact that you aa chain engages

If you think playing a stealth based thief is ez mode, go ahead and play it, but record it and post it here, we’ll see how fast and how many times you get owned xD

Malchior.5732:

DHawk.2687:

uhm tbh when is the last time you actually played thief, let’s just look at the pvp side, a backstab does 4-6k dmg, a backstab!!! which should be the hardest single target burst skill in the game, but it’s not, we don’t have sustained dmg, that is the definition of burst, get in, unload, get out, and as a thief you die when you try to do that unless the target is really low or dumb, or both, and there has to be noone or tops 1 other player near him or else he’ll just faceroll you if you try to fight, all thief can do nowadays is run away
rev uses sword 3 higher dmg than 1 backstab and you are 100%invuln during the attack and it ports and you gain might
hell precision strike can do more dmg than a backstab
as herald you have might, fury and spee 24/7
thief got nerfed for having might in stealth (which was a LOT weaker than rev might fury and swiftness uptime but ok)
but this is not about thief issues, it’s rev issues, the problem with almost every class except for thief and warrior (warrior just a little) is the insane power creep with added high sustain (best example scrapper) and rev is certanly up there too
and yes the energy cost is something to work with, but it’s nothing near the ini system which punishes spamming MUCH more than energy, since energy regens much faster than ini does
some ppl are arguing that the weapon swap is what is making rev too strong, which could be right, but the whole class is so hard to balance at this point that what anet should do is rebalance every class in the whole game and start from scratch

It’s a fact that Thief has higher sustained DPS than Revenant (~27k vs 19k respectively at best; this obviously scales down in PvP, but the ratio is still there and you can try it out yourself with a DPS meter; IIRC, Thief Dagger autos are also quite a bit stronger than Rev Sword autos and about as strong as a proper DPS rotation of a Rev) and higher burst potential overall; not necessarily with Backstab, but it’s definitely much higher than what you can normally do with Precision Strike, more reliable, more controllable and has less counters.

It’s also a fact that Thief has much higher mobility than anyone else in both engaging and escaping. I honestly think this is what will keep Thief from ever being the team fighter that people want because mobility is just so powerful (imagine a Thief that can stay in fights, has higher mobility and damage than the Revenant, and has Stealth/Steal on top of that; it wont happen unless Thief takes some hits).

Revenant has thief-like damage (it’s lower by a decent amount) and thief-like engaging skills (but with bad disengaging skills and no stealth) and a beefier body.
Thus, Revenant is just much better at team fighting. It brings enough of what a team needs and its weaknesses are more easily covered than a Thief’s, who can blow up much faster.

Again, I’m not saying Herald is fine as is, but it doesn’t do more damage or have more mobility than Thief; that’s just not true.

yes if you could kitten sit behind a mob and spam autoattacks for days thief has better sustained dmg, as soon as you fight players we don’t, just because as soon as you try to just stand there autoattack you litterally get onehitted by almost every single thing in the game
don’t see that happening with any other class btw
the reason why thief sucks as 1v1 class is because the dmg of every class is soo high, we would have to do 10k backstabs standardized to be somewhat on par (no I’m not saying it would be balance, it’s just an example)
furthermore EVERY kittenn class has a kitten ton of get out of jail free cards, passive procs that promote bad gameplay (passive invuln procs) and has been a pathetic addition to the game, the only invulns that should be in the game are the Guard Elite and the Warriors Endure Pain skill (NOT TRAIT)
you cannot be an assassin if as soon as you burst it just says 00000000 or invuln, while the other player can still dps you down most of the time
yes thief has high mobility, but before daredevil after the specilization patch, thief was horrible compared to the rest even tho he had no extra mobility
the mobility isn’t what is keeping thief from being good in 1v1’s, it’s the insane amount of damage everywhere, as thief if you try to play aggressive and make 1 single mistake you instadie to some random aoe that wasn’t even meant for you in the first place
and another thing you forget, mobility is all good and fine, but you can’t kill your foe running away, i could have a million dodges, what good are they if i can’t kill you, thief is a run away class, nothing more, thanks to arenanet
and to be honest, thieves stealth has become so bad and easy to counter it’s a death sentence if you try to play the deception arts
everything reveals, min of 40s on a 3 sec stealth, Shadow Refuge is a huge kill me sing that has too many counters and doesn’t provide enough to be worth it
other classes have better and/or easier access to stealth than a thief (which is pathetic if you think about it)
best example scrapper gyro is a mobile shadow refuge, that has longer duration, lower cd, a daze, no counter mobility other than another scrapper using the toolbelt reveal, you don’t get revealed when knocked out like SR and the overall animation is way less visible than SR
thief has always been a hated class, not because it’s op (well after he got nerfed at launch, that was a bit over the top) it’s because bad players always start to cry if they die to a thief, oh stealth is so unfair so op, there are so many ways to counter a thief even without reveal it’s pathetic, ppl just don’t like to work for it
and last but not least thief is imho the only class that really takes a lot of skill in this game at this point, which is in theory fine, a risk reward class, the thing is, you have almost no reward for max risk, one mistake and you are dead or have to run away
gg on that balance anet
there is a reason why almost everyone who mained thief left gw2, and not just the good thieves, a lot of ppl are starting to leave, simply because anet is incapable of balancing
same reason why I’m leaving

Malchior.5732:

Asrat.2645:

I have absolutely no problem with the revenant having higher sustain than a thief.
But in exchange, it should not offer the same options in damage and mobility either and exceed in boon application.

See, the fact is that Thief has higher burst, higher sustained damage and more mobility (both for engaging and escaping). Whether it’s usable in the current PvP meta is a different case.
The problem is that staying in team fights is much more important now and that’s where Thief starts to falter. Revenant works even better with Auramancer support, which lets it stay in a fight even longer.

Herald has boons, but it was designed to be a group support spec. Base Revenant has very little group support itself.
I do agree that Herald does too much and needs some changes, but then again, so do most elite specs.

uhm tbh when is the last time you actually played thief, let’s just look at the pvp side, a backstab does 4-6k dmg, a backstab!!! which should be the hardest single target burst skill in the game, but it’s not, we don’t have sustained dmg, that is the definition of burst, get in, unload, get out, and as a thief you die when you try to do that unless the target is really low or dumb, or both, and there has to be noone or tops 1 other player near him or else he’ll just faceroll you if you try to fight, all thief can do nowadays is run away
rev uses sword 3 higher dmg than 1 backstab and you are 100%invuln during the attack and it ports and you gain might
hell precision strike can do more dmg than a backstab
as herald you have might, fury and spee 24/7
thief got nerfed for having might in stealth (which was a LOT weaker than rev might fury and swiftness uptime but ok)
but this is not about thief issues, it’s rev issues, the problem with almost every class except for thief and warrior (warrior just a little) is the insane power creep with added high sustain (best example scrapper) and rev is certanly up there too
and yes the energy cost is something to work with, but it’s nothing near the ini system which punishes spamming MUCH more than energy, since energy regens much faster than ini does
some ppl are arguing that the weapon swap is what is making rev too strong, which could be right, but the whole class is so hard to balance at this point that what anet should do is rebalance every class in the whole game and start from scratch

A lot of thieves are mad at the rev system because it basically replaced the whole thief class, energy system is somewhat like the ini system, many attacks or skills are teleport, evade and in general very thief-ish
their mobility is great (not as good as a daredevil’s but still 2nd best)
their survivability is great
dmg is a bit over the top with some skills
larger hp pool etc
adding that thief was nerfed for having might stacks building up while in stealth
rev has a constant 9-15stacks, but since it’s rev it’s not as bad as thief i guess

one question Drarnor
what counters condi?
power is countered by condi or better skilled power
condi is countered by stronger condi
since cleanses don’t do kitten all 90% of the time

do you every see anyone play viper or sinister in a wvw or pvp enviroment?
secondly there is no glass cannon because as you said it takes time to do dmg, i think burst and take time to do dmg are 2 different things
and yes, if viper and or sinister where the only condi builds it would be fine, risk reward, good dmg lower sustain
but condi builds have sustian and dmg
power only has either or, or a meeh hybrid form
even if you dodge “condi bombs” as i said every attack will inflict condi’s no matter what you do you are ALWAYS ticking dmg, you are always ticking dots, you always have to clear as soon as you can or you’ll get overwhelmed
it’s a pathetic system
especially with the confusion change, now it always does a lot of dmg, no matter if you use a skill or not, it’s unbalanced in a pvp enviroment
the cleanses are mostly too weak on amost every class, and as i said if you take too many you’r basically useless vs everything else, as condi you are not
then
condi builds are simply put easier to play and more forgiving than power
e.g. try a power thief and then a condi thief
power engi (not scrapper simply engi) then condi engi
mesmer power vs mesmer perplex condi
and so on and so on
condi is a cheap way to play

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Conditions aren’t OP. People just let themselves get hit by the heavy hitter skills because they never bothered to learn to avoid them, since they don’t put a massive number up at the time of the hit.

And Stability uptime is at best 44% assuming they are always in Shroud (hint: they’re not). The reason it may seem to be permanent is because a Necro rarely spends even 8 seconds at a time in Shroud, and usually spends ~15-20 seconds in between Shroud uses, so basically every time a Reaper is in Shroud, they have Stability for its duration.

But once they leave Shroud, which is probably ~70% of a fight, realistically, they don’t have that Stability.

i can run full condi cleanse on my build vs a full condi player, and the fight will end in one of us just leaving cause i do no more dmg and he doesn’t if i have enough cleanses
condition is way easier and more rewarding to play than power, especially because you only need one good offensive stat, condi dmg, while a power based player needs at least 2, power and precision, ideally 3 including ferocity
meaning we can either be glass canon or hybrid with some hp and or armor sacrificing dmg
a condi player takes a set that gives him power vita condi, condi main
or cele
or whatever you want since you only really need condi dmg
furthermore specing like that gives you a ton of survivability depending on class and build since there are no glass cannon condi builds
so you effectivly counter dmg by having more hp and or armor, you can still counter hard hitting attacks e.g. Evicerate by dodging a telegraphed attack
while still dishing out massive dmg with conditions
this wouldn’t be a problem if every class had a max of let’s say 3 condis to work with and skills that really give out a strong condi attack have high cd, this is not the case
every skill nowadays kitten’s out condi’s making it hard to clear the ones that actually need to go
you can’t waste your dodges on high dmg skills since your playing condi and every hit kittens you up
add that too pathetic runes like perplexity that punish ppl for actually defending them selves, insane buff foods and then builds like condi perplex mesmer, engi or kittenn dodge for days thieves, it takes no skill and is more rewarding
conditions are too strong and a broken system in this game
pve fine leave it, noone cares, but for a pvp wvw enviroment it is broken

now to necro, i have no issues with them, once you understand that your attack phase is when he ain’t in shroud it’s easy, if you bullrush while he is in shroud you’ll loose
easy as that
what i meant by the “perma stabi” was that yes the shroud is the strongest form, it is the more mobile form, that’s why some classes have problems with that because you won’t see e.g. a guard kyting a necro in shroud
having the stability work differently would allow the player to have e.g. 1 sec every 4 sec where you could attempt a stun, let’s say reaper pops stabi skill, 4 sec stabi, one second not, 4 stabi, 1 not, but make it 5 stacks or more during the 4 second, i know it sounds dumb but it would allow for some breathing room without nerfing it to hell, imho

to be honest i don’t play necro much, i fight a lot of them tho, but honestly the only op thing on necro is if he plays a condi spec, but that is not necro being op it’s condi being op
yes F1 is very strong with the new elite and they might have to readjust the skill that gives them stability 24/7 but i don’t consider it op
if you manage to survive the shroud by jsut simply kiting them the necro is more or less done for
I’m talking a 1v1 scenario not group fight
i don’t see necro being op, but dmg of almost every class, well better said elite spec needs to be nerfed imho

thief is ok for 1+ and decapping in pvp but rev is just as good
1v1 thief sucks bad
pve autoattacks are good dmg
we are not the 1v1 class we once where, risk reward is high risk, barely any reward
dead class at this point if you like the deception 1v1 playstyle

ever since they took away cele gear most ele’s can’t play it anymore because cele was the only reason they would surive
In addition to that a lot of ele’s are simply put bad, the only reason why they played it was because of the tank meta and the fact that a great deal of players had macros, they just pushed 1 button, the macro kicks in and the rotation just did everything on it’s own, that is all an ele needed to do to stay alive, sustain others and deal massive dmg, now that cele is gone it takes more skill to play ele, hence less good eles ^^

PierPiero.9142:

perhaps i agree that scrapper need a nerf as many other hot specs. .. ok nerf it but give us an alternative. I play viper p/p but it is really hard to go on … and also with rifle it is not so simple to rank up …. how many not scrapper builds are really viable in pvp ?

that is just the thing, other than the “meta” builds (which mostly ALWAYS include the elite) hardly anything is viable simply because the elites are just op compared to vanilla

JDjitsu.7895:

Arnath.2319:

Insanely high damage, insanely high sustain, insanely high group support. Scrappers are God tier and need the biggest nerf that has ever nerfed in the history of all nerfs.

When people exaggerate like this, it makes people not take the post seriously at all. Just being honest, not meant to sound like I’m flaming. Scrapper is strong, and top tier, yes. But Necro,Rev,Druid are totally just as strong and possibly stronger depending on game mode and situation ect.

I really don’t remember seeing double Scrapper in any pro league matches lately? There were double Revs in most lineups. IMO I’d rather face a very skilled Scrapper over a very skilled Rev,Druid, Condi Necro, or even Condi Chrono. Saying Scrapper “needs the biggest nerf that has ever nerfed in the history of all nerfs” like was said above sounds a bit foolish and ignorant. A couple (more) tweaks could maybe be made, but it shouldn’t happen unless the other so called OP traits, other passive procs and skills get reworked on 80% of the other professions.

These kinds of Nerf Everything threads and most threads in general(cough WvW subforum) Anet doesn’t even read of care about it seems. How often do you see red posts on here? Kind of insulting, but that’s another subject altogether. Honestly OP and co., it’s a waste of time. Either just complain to yourself or REALLY put some real work into learning to counter “OP” builds, because it’s pointless to post here. Maybe if you made a thread on Reddit with actual facts, reasonings, some non napkin math figures to help along your point, and really stay away from exaggerations, it might get looked into.

Your mostly right but if enough ppl QQ long enough, it doesn’t matter how pathetic their arguments are, they will nerf it, if enough ppl cry out for it, best example thief.
Guild Wars 2 has come to the point where the DLC basically is mandatory because almost every single elite spec is overpowered compared to vanilla, most elite traitlines make already existing once useless, e.g. Acrobatic and Shadow Arts on thief or the Honor Line on most guard specs, most of the new weapons are so full of power creep it makes the old onse useless, e.g. (for pve) GS Reaper easly up to 20k Gravedigger crits with no CD at 50% hp, True Shot, CoR, Vault, Scrapper Hammer 3, etc
There is no balance around the actual classes anymore, only around the elite specs because without them you are simply downgrading your class 90% of the time.
And why did this happen? so anet can make more money out of it
In addition to that the DLC offers hardly any new content, the “huge amount of content” some ppl describe it as is just farming the same thing endlessly to get the masteries up, there is hardly anything else to do.
Now to the balance side of things, the game is devolving from being somewhat skill based into more and more casual. Skills that have no risk, no setup, no great cost or anything skill based do massive dmg (e.g. CoR) while other skills that actually need you to know what the hell you are doing do little to no dmg at all (e.g. Backstab).
Furthermore anet keeps including invuln traits and skills that dumb the combat down even more
almost every single fight plays out like this (someone dominates, other player drops invuln, dominant player is forced to kyte so he doesn’t die if kyting is possible in that situation, invuln wears off fight goes on, enemy goes 25% hp, passive invuln procs >>because you are so good that you are about to die we grant you a 5 sec invuln<<, and that just repeats itself all game long, there is no more active defense phase or attack phase, no real skill involved in surviving when you have tons of get out of jail free cards anyway.
Anyway, a lot of the “veteran” and really good players are leaving this game just because it is being dumbed down to a casual almost pay to win game with no reasonable balance or risk reward system for skilled players

Straegen.2938:

Vault is great against crappy or stunned opponents. Outside of that it will get a player killed. As someone noted hook strike, AA and weakening strikes are the go-to on that weapon set.

As for the L2P aspect, Shadow Strike and dagger AA is spammed far more frequently in WvW than staff. IMO staff is actually a more difficult weapon to use than dagger/dagger and certainly dagger/pistol.

yes staff is more difficult, especially against other thieves, thief v thief whoever plays dp has the better chances (mostly)

Kodama.6453:

DHawk.2687:

santenal.1054:

Manuhell.2759:

Even the rocket charge you mention isn’t a full evade and can’t be canceled, meaning that a well-timed interrupt can still stop the scrapper. As it should be.

quick question: Can some1 tell me at what time during rocket charge you are evading and at what time you aren’t (susceptible to cc) ?

@Sental during the actual Leap you are immune to all dmg, that is the evade part meaning almost the full sill since it’s hard to cc right when the dmg hits
evade hit evade hit evade hit
imagine a thief using sword dagger spamming sword 3 for 3 times but only had one cd on it, more dmg and no aftercast ^^

It really isn’t hard to hit in that time frame. I used to play double pistol engineer and used these time frames to load 11 stacks of burning on the scrappers. They just shouted “wtf” and died, I didn’t even get injured heavenly. You just have to get used to it, if you are it is a big weakness for most scrappers til they tend to be locked in the animation.

the thing is most condi players are fairly tanky too, since they only need 1 or 2 offensive stats so they can add 1 or 2 defensive ones as well
but as power you are fairly squishy ^^ well as thief anyway

santenal.1054:

Manuhell.2759:

Even the rocket charge you mention isn’t a full evade and can’t be canceled, meaning that a well-timed interrupt can still stop the scrapper. As it should be.

quick question: Can some1 tell me at what time during rocket charge you are evading and at what time you aren’t (susceptible to cc) ?

@Sental during the actual Leap you are immune to all dmg, that is the evade part meaning almost the full sill since it’s hard to cc right when the dmg hits
evade hit evade hit evade hit
imagine a thief using sword dagger spamming sword 3 for 3 times but only had one cd on it, more dmg and no aftercast ^^

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

kitten? if you compare JUST the weapons hammer is better, if you compare the whole classes scrapper is better too
in what sense is a cc that is totally telegraphed and aviodable by just walking away, you have like 2-3 sec to just take to steps left, you act like you are instantly stunned??
define “KIT” there are no kits in this game
so what if Guard has weaponswap, you have gadgets and the toolbelt which replaced weapon swap, your arguments have no valid point and just come close to trolling, with the difference that trolls are smarter about it

well the argument was in weapon skills alone , engineer kits are utilities and only 2 are worthwhile for scrapper

but since you brought up skills to the equation scrapper only has one skill to trigger dh traps without getting affected before engaging DH and that is Elixir S

Stability and Shields are rendered useless versus DH because

each trap dazes on activation so that is an easy 5 stability stacks removed on trigger
longbow has a 10s cd knockback
spear of justice is an unblockable pull
some traps are indeed unblockable to thats a daze that will break through shields

and because that isnt cheap enough traps give 10s fury on 20s cd
and dragon’s maw gives instand 10 might stack so just by placing two traps guard gains 80% theorical damage

and lets mention the fact traps enter cooldown when Placed rather than on activation wich brings up the potential for traps to strip up to 10 stability stacks on whatever fool charges on a guard that was sitting in a point for a while

again not a valid argument

1st you can use your toolbar shield to get in and out of traps
2. draps only daze when you have it traited, which only full trapper have, when playing full trapper it’s a gg as soon as you double dodge rolled the traps, wow that was hard hu?
3. knockback only when traited and melee range
4. spear of justice is strong yes, but can also be ealsy dodged, same as engi pull
5. ONE trap is unblockable, the trap that dmg when walking through the outer rim
6. as i said full trapper is patheticly easy to beat hence you don’t see a lot of them, since they miss sustain and utility
7. yes stacking traps on a point is cheap, but if you see a guard on a point, how dumb must you be to just walk into it?
YOU KNOW for a fact that there is a 90% chance that there are traps there, if you don’t know how to counter them (cough 2 dodges rolls, elixer s, shieldblock cough) just don’t engage
DH is strong against low lv players, especially full trappers, as soon as you hit mid to high tier they are gone because it’s too easy to counter and lb become useless with the countless reflects flying around

as i said no valid arguments just a l2p issue, coming from someone who is playing the classes counter

no offense

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

kitten? if you compare JUST the weapons hammer is better, if you compare the whole classes scrapper is better too
in what sense is a cc that is totally telegraphed and aviodable by just walking away, you have like 2-3 sec to just take to steps left, you act like you are instantly stunned??
define “KIT” there are no kits in this game
so what if Guard has weaponswap, you have gadgets and the toolbelt which replaced weapon swap, your arguments have no valid point and just come close to trolling, with the difference that trolls are smarter about it

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kitten
crapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

yeah i read it in the forums somewhere that there will be minor changes, meaning probs just visual bugs so there won’t be much change in the game i bet
but i don’t really care anymore because i think the game is too broken to make a healthy pvp/wvw balance for fighting

Same, a lot of good thieves I know quit because we got tired of having to be either way better than anyone else to have an qual chance 1v1 or to be punished by death for doing one little mistake, something no other class has
I am playing ESO now since the Rouge class there can actually be played as a rouge with deception, ports and SKILL!! while not being op!
This balance, if you can call it that, just annoyes me and I’m tired of it..
every fight plays out the same no matter what you do or play, attack a bit, invuln
attack more… invuln proc
wtf anet?? it might just be me but that is how you kittened warri up too,
i think the ONLY class that deserves an invuln like endure pain is warri, and only the skill and not the trait
all the autoprocs need to go
guards elite is also fine since you cannot do dmg or anything while invuln
but almost every other invuln just needs to go

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)

I am not talking about ranged weapons.
I am talking about range.
The range on a weapon.
That can be a melee weapon too.

You said that scrapper has more range than daredevil.
I pointed out how that is not true.
Dagger has also better range than most hammer attacks(except the hammer leap and the immobile lightning field).
Both dagger #2 (preferably below 50% hp) and shadowshot are spammable as long as you have initiative.
Both have a lot more range than the general scrapper melee attacks.
One will kite a scrapper way easier than a daredevil.

Staff also has more range than hammer (and some defensive + offensive stuff too, like evade attack and leap, evade and attack, weakness and attack, blind and attack, attack and reflect on auto (on part 3, not instantly available though) and no cds on any).
Not talking about which weapons are better or anything. Just pointing out range and functions.

Again, also not a complaint.
I just want to correct this misinformation about hammer having more range than daredevil, which is incorrect. One of the scrapper hammer weakness is its low range.

what you forgetting is that heartseaker and shadowshot are skills that bring you closer to the enemy so it’s not a skill you can use to kyte (unless you try and somewhat jump away with heartseaker)
Furthermore yes we have no CD on skills, but we have to spend ini, e.g. just using blindpowder and heartseaker to go invis uses up 9 ini, which is a lot since almost every skill costs between 4-6 now since thief is op and must nerf
well we’ll see what anets does today, i don’t think there will be any balance changes, but there will definatly be something new in the gemstore xD

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

bearshaman.3421:

DHawk.2687:

no the fact that there is so much aoe, condi and reveal out there now is murdering stealth playstyle
I used to main d/d, which is dead, as a stealth deception playstyle with everything based on stealth to engage, disengage and just troll the enemy, try that now, stealth boom reveal!
that is why so many thieves don’t use shadowarts anymore or Shadow Refuge, because it’s just a big kill me I’m here and can’t do kitten about it Signal!
D/P is played most because every single skill on the bar is strong and hardcounters every other thief build, e.g. every other thief that does not take offhand p has no access to blind, a blind field and a daze
d/p is the only set with a gap closer on the bar #3 which is unblockable and blinds and does more dmg than CnD which should be a hard hitting burst skill but was nerfed because thief op

I can imagine this is the case for pvp. I don’t play pvp however, and I can still stealth with a staff. I just don’t have a spammable weapon skill for it. But the elite spec is definitely not to blame for stealth playstyle being dead in competitive play.

that’s not what I meant, our elite spec is basically what acro used to be (just a bit better) fullfilling a nishe in our gameplaystyle, which was evasion based, now the coin flipped and evasion is the best/most played playstyle because stealth is just lacking

i can run my full crit dmg build having about 2600dmg with 80% crit chance and about 250% crit dmg, backstab does 2k xD
but all the scrappers say they are balanced, i mean if they hit me for 15k just pressing #3 of course it’s balanced

Orion.3812:

DHawk.2687:

now to sum it all up, my last point, if a whole thread disaggrees with your point of it being op in wvw/pvp, ppl that have been maining thief since get go, that have been present in this forum since forever, don’t you think you should rethink your somewhat silly argumentation?

No, I shouldn’t, because there have been several in the thread that seemed to agree that the autoattack buff was not the change that thieves needed or liked the idea of more interesting mechanics instead. I have even received a private message from a person who agreed with me but didn’t want to deal with the toxicity they knew that they would get in response for publicly agreeing with me on the subject.

You’ve made comparisons in your post to abilities that are nothing like backstab, with completely different damage models, cast times and counters, as a way of trying to argue that the autoattack buff was merited. This thread isn’t about backstab being overpowered. It’s about autoattack, which contributes a large portion of thief personal damage even in PvP. Talking about every mechanic or ability that other classes have that is good is only deflecting the argument without addressing it.

I completely agree on one point, that you can’t just follow someone around autoattacking them and expect to live. However, in the course of one fight with the d/p weapon set you’ll frequently find yourself with a blinded target. What should you do while your target is blind? Autoattack. After every shadow shot, after every smoke field, and at least once after every backstab until they turn to face you, you’re autoattacking. Like it or not, thief autoattack is a significant portion of thief damage in a realistic scenario.

Did you know that staff thieves reflect missiles during their autoattack chain? That’s right, one of the best autoattacks in the game for DPS provides missile reflection for a full second, every two seconds. That’s 50% uptime on missile reflect, plus 4 stacks vulnerability, for every autoattack chain. Does Dragonhunter’s longbow 2 seem a bit ridiculous, compared to backstab because of its similar damage and 1200 range? At first glance, sure… but then you have to consider that backstab can only be dodged or blocked and that Dragonhunters can end up eating their own True Shot… because the thief used autoattack.

of course AAing is a part of dmg, but that counts for every class, and as I said thief doesn’t just stand there autoattacking for several seconds, meaning the buff to the dmg isn’t that noticable if only 1-max 3 autoattacks even hit (especially since it’s only the last 2 autohits that actually do something)
and yes they could have done a lot to improve thief differently, yet improving AA dmg was the best situation in the smallest time period, since real balance would mean a total rehaul of every class and mechanic of every class and that we actually need a dev that plays thief, as our dev mains engi…….
Furthermore considering that a backstab NEEDS to be performed out of invis, meaning small time period (or if you want to waste all your CD for one attack ok), it HAS to be performed from behind, it HAS to be melee and it HAS to crit to actually do dmg, and how much dmg do we do about 4-7k, which is pathetic, afterwards being revealed meaning we have depending on gamemode 3-4 sec where our supposedly hardest hitting attack cannot be performed
a LB Guard (which is in general not op in my opinion) presses one button and does 9k dmg at 1200 range every 4 sec
and you can counter backstab by block, blind, dodge, invuln, cc, reveal, cleaveing the thief so he doesn’t get too close, moving unpredictably etc! BS is a pathetic attack and the main reason for that is that if they buff it they would be onehitting thieves left and right, meaning thieves fighting each other will even more rely on luck and/or ping/first hit
if they toned done every other classes dmg BS would be fine in comparison, but having a really high risk and wind up to just do bs dmg is not worth it, hell playing D/P you could just #3 twice and do the dmg a backstab provides, woop di doo da
Now staff is a different story, ALL my arguments are based on Dagger Main hand
staff is defenetly worth nerfing when it comes to overall dmg, but so does every elite and/or elite weapon, the reason for them being so strong is that ppl feel that getting the xpack is mandatory to have a fighting chance (and in some cases it is)

but no, autoattack dmg buff for thief buff for pve is a good thing, it gives us at least some justification to participate since we can now dish out good dmg (btw about the same dmg rev used to do on it’s swords auto, but i guess it was fine since it was rev and not thief right?)

for pvp and wvw the changes hardly effect anything since a thief can’t just sit there and spam autoattacks or he’ll die in a split second
the actual increase in dps when fighting an equally skilled player is very small

Just like the DH traps the autoattack is only op against really bad players that don’t do anything and let ppl kill them

I also would have rather seen a nerf to the power creep in general, but this is anet, as if they’ll balance a game to what would be best for the playerbase

why do you think so many players are leaving gw2? especially thieves

no the fact that there is so much aoe, condi and reveal out there now is murdering stealth playstyle
I used to main d/d, which is dead, as a stealth deception playstyle with everything based on stealth to engage, disengage and just troll the enemy, try that now, stealth boom reveal!
that is why so many thieves don’t use shadowarts anymore or Shadow Refuge, because it’s just a big kill me I’m here and can’t do kitten about it Signal!
D/P is played most because every single skill on the bar is strong and hardcounters every other thief build, e.g. every other thief that does not take offhand p has no access to blind, a blind field and a daze
d/p is the only set with a gap closer on the bar #3 which is unblockable and blinds and does more dmg than CnD which should be a hard hitting burst skill but was nerfed because thief op

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

A lot of ppl and a lot of thieves dislike staff because it’s relativly easy to spam vault instead of preparing a backstab wich does less dmg than vault ^^
but the main issue with staff is that a lot of thieves feel robbed by anet since their main playstyle (deception and stealth) was murded …

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

Jana.6831:

@cynz: To make it simple: D/P is stronger than every other thief set – part of it because the skills synergize so well – the other reason: all traits in SA are now suited D/P best.
And it does more damage than at least D/D which is silly and shouldn’t be.
As long as thief is balanced around D/P no other weaponset will have a chance. As long as D/P isn’t nerfed (traits being unraveled so other builds can take them again counting as nerfs) no other set will have a chance.
I hope you get it now – and I’m seriously tired of this discussion – I’m not that stupid that I couldn’t have brought my point across in now 100 posts – so please try to either get or just leave me alone with your hostility – thank you.

I agree 100% Jana!

Asrat.2645:

DHawk.2687:

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Well if you think that 1 block that lasts for 1,5 sec will be a gamechanger for thieves, then you are wrong

I was not referring to the block. I was referring to the 12 sec cd stunbreak. It really makes for a huge difference in thief v thief fights.

the stunbreak doesn’t make a huge difference in thief v thief, since we don’t have that meany stuns anyhow, the only one is basi venom, then yes sword 2 has an immob and a trait does as well, playing DrD makes them useless, and bandits defense doesn’t clear immob so kitten? ^^

there is a cap to your bonus movement speed all to get her
when you are invis with Hidden Thief you will only get the extra 33% that swiftness gives you
what the trait does is give you out of combat speed with swiftness in combat while invis if you get what I’m trying to say ^^

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Well if you think that 1 block that lasts for 1,5 sec will be a gamechanger for thieves, then you are wrong
yes it’s nice to have a block and the knockdown afterwards, but how many times will you really block a skill that will potentially kill you
e.g. Killshot warri, they pop their signet anyway most of the time, unblockable
- DH 3 unblockable. 2 has casttime that nullifies bandits defense, because the defense unless perfectly times will be over before the shot hits
- ranger 2, unless used with quickness that one block of max 3 arrows is not a big help
IMHO the best use of bandits defense is vs another thief if he stealth engages you and you didn’t see it coming to quickly go “invuln” before the last hits kill you so you can shadow step, just thief vs thief is in my opinion more luck than skill most of the time (when 2 equally skilled thieves fight i mean)
but that’s just my 2 cents
the biggest thing for us thieves is 1 all the bullcrap invulns everywhere, the fact that almost everything does more dmg than our burst with less cost in it, that if not on your toes a random aoe will kill you that wasn’t even meant for you and that thief has become almost useless when played without Daredevil
Thieves natural counter are bruisers, which is logical, the thing now tho, almost every class can take a kitten ton of dmg while dishing out more than us, and then even as aoe or ranged or both xD
If anet doesn’t nerf the power creep, the insane condi dmg imho and especially almost every elite spec (including DrD) the situation for thieves, especially vanilla thieves will not improve, not even mentioning the weaker weaponsets since comparing D/P to every other set is just a waste of time, I love D/D (power not condi) and its playstyle (and come on double incinerator is epic) but i have forced myself into D/P now since you just have so much more utility and surivivability you don’t have to spec for, which is compared to other classes still pretty weak but better than the 0 survivability of almost every other weapon set

Gwaihir.1745:

Moving shelter into meditations would solve some of the problems. Because let’s face it it’s extremely odd to have a skill with no type when it is blatantly a meditation. This would self proc the 2k heal and another 2k heals from trained smite condo, ending somewhere around 8k total.

not gonna happen tho, since there already is a meditation heal, i think we don’t have a shout heal yet tho, which woulnd’t make much sense all together tho haha ^^

LucianDK.8615:

Revs only have average damage now. And the shield is junk, the piddly heal is not worth the self root. And they explicitly said they had it selfrooting because the heal was good, and theyd have to weaken the heal if they removed the selfroot. Then what do they go and do? Weaken the heal while keeping the root.

well to be honest they didn’t weaken the actual heal, they gave it a cast time and took away the stun break (yes stunbreak on a heal that makes you immune to all dmg…)
the heal is still very strong, the biggest reason why is because noobs always keep attacking, imho the heal is strong when in outnumbered situations or vs noobs, even if you would rework it back you would still not get healed vs a good player so why the big fuss?

babazhook.6805:

I do think that were SE shifted to one of the minor slots trhe Shadow Arts line could be more useful. Ie trait up a lower deception cooldown so one can take shadowstep and HIS on a lower cooldown.

The line itself is not all bad trait wise , it just needs a wee bit of organization so one trait not compromising another.

yeah i aggree on that, e.g. i think making CiS a GM was stupid and having 50% speed on Hidden Thief as well, since Hidden Thief is something DD thieves needed most of all, the trait hidden thief kittens up a DD strongest burst

babazhook.6805:

There are ways of removing specific conditions but people do not take them because they are considered trash.

Too many are enraptured with power creep. There more and more damage in attacks so they go “all in” for more power and ignore entire traitlines just to get higher damage. They than wonder why they lack condition cleanse.

In one build d/d condition (which contrary to claims has many of its own weaknesses that are not condition related), I sacrificed damage to get more healing into the build. Using GI the conditions weakness/vulnerability/confusion and slow are rarely on him. He prone to stuns by dropping HTC but finds with near 2k heals on each DB can quickly recover health to over 75 percent so as to kick in GI. Coupled with PR in the same line those single use condition cleanses such as escapists are far more effective. This a build using no trickery which too many deem “mandatory” .

in my s/d build (in truth s/d d/p as both used equally) I do not even use that GI. Indeed I do not take stealth skills OR escapists in most cases as I find i generally have enough condition cleanses in the build. Trickster traited with two tricks. QP traited and I diligently swap weapons in combat. Virtually every meta I look at sigils air/fire slotted as people want more damage . Purity/cleansing can work wonders here helping to keep those cover conditions off so that the things like SE or escapists can more reliably take off the ones that do damage. With the higher INI due to QP i can more readily use Infiltrators for added cleansing.

UC is a beaut of a skill and IMHO worth taking over bounding in power builds just to help keep Chill/crippled off , again cover conditions that by being kept off allow those single use cleanses like infiltrators to become more effective at getting at that confusion stack.

Yes in dropping bounding or air sigils or fire sigils or taking CS line or DA line over Acro you sacrifice damage But I think it a choice we should have to make.

We are never going to be immune to conditions nor should we be, but if you are willing to sacrifice a bit of that damage that so many are focused on and given AA damage more hard hitting putting that sigil of air away in favor of a purity or tking acro over DA can help significantly.

to be honest, I’ve been playing a CS/DrD/Trick build, with remove condi on trick, remove condi on dodge and purity
together with withdraw and roll for ini and the sigil that cleanes on activation
it’s not enough, for normal fights yes it’s fine, in a group fight against 1 or 2 condi as well, but 1 v 1 against condi, especially perplexity bullkitten it’s good enough to run away, if the condi (nub^^) is on your skill lv you won’t win, even with acro or sa condi cleanse

Acotje.5689:

DHawk.2687:

I’m fine with not getting extra ini regen, i think that would be too strong
but we should get some kind of benefit out of it, maybe something like no cd on weapon swap while under the effect of alacrity, wouldn’t be op but usefull in some situations imo

That will result in perma full Ini in raids

because of the weapon swap trait? that has an ICD don’kitten

This is getting somewhat pathetic, I can see your point that it is selfish to buff thieves AA instead of giving him a group dmg buff for PvE sake, BUT that would be a Rev now would it?
thief is a rouge, assassin type class, means SELFISH, if you want group support, even if thief would get a bit more, other classes provide better support, so why even bother??
secondly the AA buff makes little difference in the WvW and especially in PvP enviroment, since the only really hart hitting attacks are the last 2 in the chain, the chances you can just stand there and autoattack are close to 0. Why? because even playing marauder you die in about 1-2 hits of random aoe that wasn’t even meant for you..
and even if the autoattack was pushed sooo high that it would do lets say 10k on each hit, you still couldn’t instakill 90% of the other classes! Why? because EVERY class has 1 or 2 Invuln skills, most of them as autoproc! so how the hell do you instakill someone, no matter the dmg if they just say, nope, no more dmg for 3-7 sec thank you
Furthermore thiefs burst is somewhat pathetic if you look at it in comparison to other classes, playing a burst D/D build you usually burst with CnD, Steal, Backstab, in pvp you can max hit for 8k with the whole combo, considering not running with might stacks/vuln or enemy below 50% hp
now with that petty Burst you used up at least 6 ini, have steal on CD and are revealed, all that just to have done meh dmg and max procing one of the invuln skills of the enemy, at which point you need to run away..
Now that sounds really kittenn op doesn’kitten
let’s look at other classes, Guard, or DH, LB2 hits for up to 10k, 4s cd, 1200 range, pierces…
Rev, hammer 2, basically the some skill, just aoe
Ranger LB 2, 1500 range, same dmg, causes vuln, low cd
Rev S3, gain might stacks, invuln during attack, port to enemy even if he e.g. blinks, same dmg
i can go on for days
and of course you could play thief instead of dmg as condi, which is cheap in many ppls eyes since condi is imho one of the most op things in the game, but that’s a different topic
then yeah you could build into sustain and fight over a longer period of time, but why the hell would you want to do that as thief, when almost EVERY other class can do that too, just better…
and I’m not sure, but you were saying with the autoattack buff every thief skill is now sutsaining, dmg etc, that you get everything for doing 1 think, which is bull anyway
but lets look at scrappers hammer, just one little comparison, autoattack can provide massive sustained dmg, hammer 2 is a block, whirl and does dmg, hammer 3 is 3 leaps, 3 evades and hard hitting, hammer for another block ( i think even reflect or so)while doing dmg, and hammer 5 a relativly big lightning field, most skills are on really really low cd, are both defense and offense, better than any other class in that perspective plus traits that make him tankier the more you fight, plus higher hp pool, plus the strong heal on low cd

this whole thread is pathetic considering you saying thief is op in any way possible
there are a few things that need tuning down, that is staff 5 mostly,
i can see how ppl feel that the new high mobility spec and “perma dodge” (which it ain’t unless playing 3333333 condi bob) is a bit op, but that is the best defensive utility we have since they made our invis kinda the worst of all classes that have it ^^

now to sum it all up, my last point, if a whole thread disaggrees with your point of it being op in wvw/pvp, ppl that have been maining thief since get go, that have been present in this forum since forever, don’t you think you should rethink your somewhat silly argumentation?
no offense btw, just yeah, it’s kinda silly

DeceiverX.8361:

Almost like they intentionally changed Shadow’s Embrace to handle these kinds of issues and completely ignore cover conditions as to prevent DoT death by prioritizing heavy incoming damage for better sustain potential.

People still shout it was heavily nerfed, though, failing to recognize how much better this trait is these days.

But yea, part of playing condi is covering DoT’s with “useless” or spammable effects to prevent cleansing. Easy these days just because of the number of passive procs and random conditions being applied by everything, though. Bulk cleanse to remove the DoT’s is typically much more important than a high rate of single-condition cleansing.

the thing is, imho, that the change is strong in theory, yes dmg condi are removed faster, BUT when only playing with SA SE, how do you remove slow? weakness? vuln!? etc, non dmg condi especially weakness will kill you as a thief because you just cannot get your dmg out or you take so much dmg because you can’t clear the 20 stacks of vuln
that is the major issue with the changes to SE