Guild Wars 2

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The profession as is, has next to no risk at all since it can bail at any moment without the opponent being able to do much about it while maintaining huge burst every 15 secs and stuns nearly on demand. This is not my definition of “challenging”.

That’s three distinct builds you just described.

“Huge burst every 15s” = Power Shatter mesmer
“Bail at any moment without the opponent being able to do much about it” = PU Mesmer
“Stuns nearly on demand” = Lockdown mesmer

Some people mix and match between those a bit, but you don’t get to have all three at once.

How about I turn that back on you?

Thief as is, is just too powerful as they can do a huge burst every 5s from the middle of nowhere while being able to apply so much condition damage that you can’t even heal up. Plus, they can just stay in stealth forever and there’s no way to see them coming.

Ele as is, is just too powerful as they can unload incredible amounts of damage all the time, and you can’t kill them because of their 20k health.

Guardian as is, is just too powerful because they’re pretty much invincible while being able to lay down tons of burns all the time with high condition damage.

if you consider 9k (about max backstab dmg) huge too powerfull bursts i don’t know what to say ^^
and you can always see the thief coming, SR is a big kill me sign, CnD is easy to spot and just dodge, blind field heartseaker use a daze and he’s done, or wait about 2-3 sec (the time he has to prepare a bs) and dodge.
but yeah that is pretty difficult ….

Amins.3710:

Quit play the ez-mode crutch guard build that baddies play.

Srsly.

It’s no better than a PU Shatter Build.

You want to be “Pro”, create a playstyle that fits YOU. Perfect it and then it won’t matter what the “meta” is as it’ll fit YOUR playstyle.

Burn guards are easy to beat. Just don’t be dumb. Dodge their JI burst, kite the kitten out of them while applying pressure until they burn their Shelter & Purity, then crush them.

Burn is great against people not familiar with 6x stacks of burn ticks… you know, those good players who are watching their UI and not just mashing buttons.

Stop the meta madness yo, guard has so much more to offer.

Amins i share your mentality of creating own builds instead of going by meta,
I posted a thread in which i posted a build i need some advice on (haven’t played guard in a while) and because no one is replying maybe you would look at it ^^?

Vieux P.1238:

DHawk.2687:

MailMail.6534:

I don’t get the point of this thread. I still don’t feel sorry for thieves and never will.

I don’t use PU, because I dislike the playstyle but that doesn’t change the fact that thief has been an OP class and one that HARD-countered power Mesmers for the entirety of this game’s invention until June 23rd. This is to be celebrated.

That being said, do not fear my fellow Mesmers. We’ll be nerfed back into the ground where other classes gain more with 50% less effort put into their builds.

^thief hasn’t been OP for a long time, and in it’s current state the thief is just pathetic, why do you think so many ppl are leaving the thief to play mesmer or smth else, it’s not just about thief vs mesmer, thief in general was kittened with the patch

As mesmers, we felt the same way espacailly when it came fighting vs thieves. Difference we dint leave our main to play thieves. We stuck to it.

as I said before ( view post above ) it’s not just thief vs mesmer, thief is in a bad state no matter what he fights, was mesmer that way pre patch?
(serious question I didn’t play shatter mesmer for too long)

guess how thieves must feel, he’ll be like an assassin with heavy armor xD
I can see the OP rage coming ^^

Hey Guys, I used to play Guard as main and played around with shout builds and medi builds,
I haven’t played for a long time and my old medi build doesn’t work anymore, so I theory crafted a new one and wanted to ask you guys what you think.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAR5dnkICVDhdDBmDB8Dhj4hKvivYMWDgGoev77kmDA-T1SEABKqWBAHEAtUCukyDJVVJiLAATKx4QzAO7PwmOAHeCAkCQPdWA-wI know mace shield isn’t that great it’s just a weapons combo i like to use
I took the Elite for 2 reasons, the passive heal and the fact, that if you play in a party with 1 or 2 thieves while roaming or smth like that, you can pull off the 100% heal in stealth to fully heal your party

As I said I haven’t played Guard in a long time so I hope noone will rage on me or get rude if the build is kinda lackluster…
Thanks for your help

MailMail.6534:

I don’t get the point of this thread. I still don’t feel sorry for thieves and never will.

I don’t use PU, because I dislike the playstyle but that doesn’t change the fact that thief has been an OP class and one that HARD-countered power Mesmers for the entirety of this game’s invention until June 23rd. This is to be celebrated.

That being said, do not fear my fellow Mesmers. We’ll be nerfed back into the ground where other classes gain more with 50% less effort put into their builds.

^thief hasn’t been OP for a long time, and in it’s current state the thief is just pathetic, why do you think so many ppl are leaving the thief to play mesmer or smth else, it’s not just about thief vs mesmer, thief in general was kittened with the patch

Don’t run full berserk, there is no sense in it, unless you want to die fast
valk is way better than zerk, use furios maintanance oil with it and your crit damage will go skyrocket
just dont go full zerk ^^

Dagins.5163:

DHawk.2687:

dp does need some kind of adjustment imo, i think the blindfield and the fact that you can just heartseaker through it stale, boring and a bit too strong compared to all the other thief weaponsets, not even mentioning the shadowshot and daze

No, there is simply a problem with other weapon sets, all of them have the same problem in common – at least one junk weapon ability. Dagger/pistol have all weapon abilities functional and useful. I have no idea why devs keep it this way for such a long time.

d/d – death blossom, dancing dagger,
s/d – dancing dagger,
s/p – black powder (no initiative to use it besides stomps, PW used for everything),
p/p – unload, body shot, no synergy for black powder (like above),
p/d – body shot, dancing dagger,
… and …
d/p – fully funcional, great synergy between weapon abilities.

Shortbow not listed, because it’s always chosen as secondary weapon for shadowsteps.

This is why d/p was pretty much always top weapon set with exception when s/d and d/d were overbuffed with larcenous strike and backstab mug combo.

dancing dagger isn’t bad in theory, it has helped me out a lot tbh, the only downside is that the ini cost is way to high for a simple skill like that, anet needs to eihter buff it’s damage and cripple time or reduce the ini cost

Jana.6831:

DHawk.2687:

yes I’d rather prefer a buff to the other sets as well, i don’t want us to be nerfed again, but honestly, what do you think will happen, since we are still op for everyone else xD

So you see only thieves in wvw and that’s why you think it would be a good idea to nerf DP to the same level as DD instead of buffing DD?
(doesn’t make any sense)
By demanding a nerf to DP you would weaken thief as a class even more.

mfg how many times do i have to say i want to see a buff rather than a nerf, I’m just trying to be realistic since we won’t see a buff in a long time
are we done now? I NEVER demanded a nerf of dp

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

So, you get owned by RF on your D/D thief and refuse to change to something that can fully counter it, ie D/P, then come here to complain about RF and want it to be changed to a non-channel or remove the vulnerablility, ie, nerf it.

This is the gist of it?

fyi, 10 attacks over 2.5s to do 1440 base damage is hardly burst.

sorry that i won’t let nerfs to MY class hinder me from playing my fav weapon set, and since you cannot discuss is a mature manner there is no sense in holding a conversation with you.
you really are closed minded if i ever saw one

Jana.6831:

DHawk.2687:

dp does need some kind of adjustment imo, i think the blindfield and the fact that you can just heartseaker through it stale, boring and a bit too strong compared to all the other thief weaponsets, not even mentioning the shadowshot and daze

No, D/P doesn’t need a nerf, S/D and D/D need a buff.
Don’t just compare thief vs thief, someone already said it, we’ve got other classes to fight against who in most cases have equally utility like D/P.

yes I’d rather prefer a buff to the other sets as well, i don’t want us to be nerfed again, but honestly, what do you think will happen, since we are still op for everyone else xD

vit is better overall, since toughness won’t help with conditions and condi has been improved and is seen more often now, plus you can combine vit with furious oil
given you 100 extra vit and 10% of your vit is transferred to ferocity
very strong on valk, berserker build (valk armor and 2 assessories, rest berserker)

Andrew.6487:

I agree with u, other weapon sets are too weak, except s/d and shortbow. So, do u think s/d and shortbow need nerfs too ? if not, the problem is ur favor, not p/d.
It’s just like a ele complains his staff set is beaten by a d/d set, so plz nerf d/d ele, isn’kitten

that is a bad comparison, staff is made for aoe support, dd isn’t
dp is made for gank, so is dd
or sd, and sd has been nerfed a lot with the last patch
so I’d like to see some adjustment to EITHER dp OR all the other sets, because the game gets stale if every thief is more or less forced to play dp since it’s (on paper) the only vialbe set

Solandri.9640:

Wuselknusel.4082:

You are not the first one who complains about the range of the LB and you probably, and sadly, wont be the last one. Yet, here we are and the LB still has his 1500 range.

LB used to be 1200 range and you had to take a trait to get 1500 range. People complained about it the 1500 range then too. With the patch, Anet took away the trait… and made 1500 the baseline range for longbow.

Anet wants Ranger longbow to be 1500 range. It is not going to change. Deal with it.

DHawk.2687:

one dodge won’t midigate 50% of the damage first of all, you dodge 3 arrows tops

I think he was referring to RF when traited so it fires faster. Though that brings up another point – half the people complain that the skill channels too quickly (is too bursty), the other half complain that the skill channels too slowly (can’t dodge/evade all the damage). You can’t have it both ways. Either it’s quick and you can dodge/evade more of it, or it’s less burst but you can’t dodge/eavde as much of it.

then steal won’t put you behind the ranger, it will shadowstep you toward him, meaning, the closest distance between the 2, only shadowsteps behind if you already are behind or the ranger turns around during the step

The “get behind the ranger” is key. Doesn’t have to be with shadowstep. Anything you do (shadowstep + w) to get behind the ranger will stop RF damage, as the skill does not automatically turn the ranger to face the opponent.

the range isn’t a problem, but the fact that they buffed you pretty hard by making that baseline and now being able to also get traits like (don’t know the name) the one that makes the arrows pierce so it can hit more than one oppenent is a big buff, at least imho
All i asked for at the start of this thread was to either change rapid fire, that it won’t trace when the enemy goes into stealth, or that it doesn’t cause vuln, i never said nerf damage, nerf speed or range, i just wanted to tweak it a bit so it’s not a fire and forget longrange tracing burst
that’s about it

first of all i don’t play dp i play dd, meaning i have no counter at all against dp
but that’s not my point, the dp weapon set is too strong compared with all the others, better said all the others are too weak, i know it has a lot of counters, and no i don’t play glasscanon, doing that is idiotic post patch

dp does need some kind of adjustment imo, i think the blindfield and the fact that you can just heartseaker through it stale, boring and a bit too strong compared to all the other thief weaponsets, not even mentioning the shadowshot and daze

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

So what if RF does more damage than BS? It takes all ten (10!) hits to strike and crit for it to do full damage. One dodge negates 50% of that damage. BS hits for 60% of that damage in 1 hit and can be traited to 100% crit.

You can also steal from 1200 range that automatically puts you behind the Ranger, into stealth, Stun the Ranger and have 100% chance to crit the BS. Or you could just steal to gap close, then Head Shot to interrupt the RF channel, which you can do EVERY SINGLE TIME IT IS USED. Not only that, but it puts it on full CD.

Stop crying about 300 range, it is really nothing, especially when you have all the tools to counter it.

one dodge won’t midigate 50% of the damage first of all, you dodge 3 arrows tops
then steal won’t put you behind the ranger, it will shadowstep you toward him, meaning, the closest distance between the 2, only shadowsteps behind if you already are behind or the ranger turns around during the step
the bs does about 9k damage out of stealth with 100% crit rate, barely enough to get the ranger half health, if even that.
Furthermore your argument only stands when talking about dp thieves, dd or sd are not affected, since they have no acces to daze and the stealth on steal trait would be idiotic for dd
so you still dish out more damage at max range by pressing 1 button that will follow the enemy
anything else you want me to correct?
how about you play the thief before acting like you know his mechanics, thanks

Kidel.2057:

shouldn’t you ask this in the Mesmer section?

if he does they’ll just start raging again
because thief is so op

denis.9487:

A thief using shadow refuge can dodge in stealth. How often to you honestly push pull a thief in shadow refuge. Almost like that’s the measure of a good thief.

considering that you don’t know when the knowback will come and you mostly only have 1 dodge, hmmm
smart players will wait a sec and then knock them out, thought of that?

Rome.7124:

DHawk.2687:

The biggest problem for me is, the blind on shatter trait, combined with the fact, that illusionary persona is standard now (which is somewhat pathetic) it makes backstabing or CnD almost impossible. i don’t want mesmer to be nerfed to hell, just slightly adjusted

It’s ironic that you would have respect for mesmers that beat thieves before the June 23rd patch, yet you cant look at yourself in the mirror. There were so many things that favors thieves when it comes to 1 vs 1 against Mesmers (a GM trait as Power Block had no effect on thieves). Now post patch, Mesmers are stronger and possibly on equal footing with Thieves, and you want to ANet to “slightly” adjust so you can still have an edge. Maybe try to be like the old Mesmers facing thieves, get better so current Mesmers can “respect” you more.

mesmer and thief or not on the same footing, and I think there are enough post describing how op the mesmer is in it’s current state,
I tried to play a shatter mesmer pre patch, i was moderate at best, one a few fights but lost most of em, because it was hard,
i tried it post patch and cried because it was so patheticly easy, it was a joke.

Coronit.9432:

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

Vornollo.5182:

Skill cap wise? S/D > D/P > D/D.

Thanks for clarifying this as I was wondering why I’m always dying lately- thought it had something to do with the heavy nerfs my weaponset took while the answer is that I have no skill, I’m carried by my D/D weaponset.

I think he meant that no matter how good you are, there’s a limit to what that weaponset can do for you. D/D just doesn’t have the utility of the other 2 listed.

Thats right. Skill floor =/= skill cap. Low skill floor means it doesn´t need much skill to be somehow successful. Be it killing people or whatever. High skill cap means you can reach a higher point of skill and not getting limited cause of the weaponset. D/P has a low skill floor. Its “easy” to get into stealth, survive to a certain point and kill people. But you also need a kitten lot knowledge about your possibilities, other classes, key-skills, etc to get the full potential. Having usefull weapon-skills allows that. D/D is much more difficult to play in longer fights (come on, one-shotting people isn´t difficult) and the lack of equal useful weapon-skills as D/P hinder it.

besides the fact that you cannot one shot ppl, playing DD is harder than DP in every way, anet nerfed DD, SD, SP so hard the only usefull set is DP, which is kinda cheap in some ways, comparing DD with DP, DP gets blind on will, stealth on will, instant 900 range shadowstep blind and interrupt, DD has stealth on hit, if you miss you’re screwed, a cripple that is semi usefull and an evade that has .5sec delay, does no to little damage and takes way too much ini.
no blind, no daze, no easy access to stealth, etc

Puck.9612:

Axelwarrior.9084:

I’m starting to think the Ranger forums are full of paranoid people who think every other player in the game is a Thief who wants to nerf them.
Because whenever someone points out something about Rangers, the responses are pretty much only “YES BUT THIEF HAS BACKSTAB”, as if that’s a valid response to every argument one can make about Rangers.

@Justine & Puck: Congrats, you greatly contributed to this thread with your sarcasm. You both gain 2 sarcasm points!
On a serious note, because I’m not a troll, I obviously meant power Rangers only use LB. Are you happy now? Are you prepared to go back to your den now that you’re fed?

Comes into ranger forum telling rangers not to respond, calls people idiots…. nope not a troll at all.

puck do you have problems reading or understanding the english language?

arenta.2953:

yeah

lets switch the LB 2 skill from a channel skill that takes time to do its dmg and “traces” enemies.
into a skill that just does all the dmg at once! like theif skills!

then we can ask theifs what they prefer. a skill that takes time to do dmg and “traces” them.

or alpha dmg skill like all theif skills!

then maybe we will have less theives complaining about a skill that takes 4 secoudns to do all its dmg……
4 secounds…..vs 1 secound for the same ammount of dmg for a thief.

yeah i forgot i can backstab you while being 1,5k range away from you ^^ oh and behind you
if you’ve never played thief before, yes it THIEF by the way, do not talk bs about the class, thanks
and fyi rapid fire does more damage than backstab

arenta.2953:

DHawk.2687:

the only thing i dislike about the longbow is that #2 causes vuln and it traces, for mesmer or thief it is kinda unfair, that even tho they go stealth or dodge once it won’t really change the fact that they are more or less kittened, I’m not trying to cry whine or call bs on other ppl
I’m just saying that it shouldn’t trace through stealth and cause vuln, it’s not needed
if a ranger can stay at long range, e.g. being positioned at highground the enemy can’t get too, you’ll never loose/die, unless you are a complete noob ^^
and honestly, the argument that LB isn’t good in pvp is just silly, LB is a long range weapon, pvp is close combat mostly, it doesn’t make any sense.
As I said, don’t let the #2 skill track through stealth and/or cause vuln

PS: ready for the hate to come raging down on me for saying this xD

ok so anythin that shows the location of a stealthed enemy
warrior’s full auto rifle skill
ranger’s traps and LB 2 skill
engineer mines
thief trap
ele’s fire sword (tracks target if it stealths during casting)
necro marks (and staff 1 skill follows target even if they stealth. so you see where theif is running)

and alot more.

so all of that has to be removed? so thief’s spammable steath can’t be countered as they spam it so much much its more spammable than the cooldown of the track skills?

oh and guardian scepter. that thing’s slow moving shots follow enemies when they stealth.

and technically any weapon with AoE like guardian staff or greatsword that shwos damage numbers when you hit stealthed enemies (look at damage panel)

I’ll take this as a troll or joke, because that’s exactly what it is

apharma.3741:

DHawk.2687:

just shows you don’t play thief xD
yes the damage got buffed, but so did every other class’ damage
e.g. pre patch i had 2,2k power and 220% crit damage, my backstabs hit for 9-13k almost all the time
NOW i have 2,85k power, 250% crit damage and you can barely get over 9k xD
but yeah we are so strong
thief is somewhat the weakest class, it works when playing in a group, but 1v1 you always need to have more skill than the other player to even have a chance, 2 players on the same skill lv, thief dies instantly. done deal, If you ask ppl around, especially the good players will ALL say fighting a thief is a joke, no challange at all, if you think thief is so good, try him out and die, over and over again

Yeah it’s weird, I barely get over 9k BSs now but I have more power and crit, well in PvP. In PvE I get 20k BS and rediculous HS and C&D numbers. Maybe there’s a bug or something because I feel all the extra power in PvE but not WvW where I have massive stat inflation too.

I don’t agree with the last part though, generally I either win or get away. I guess if you count someone getting away as a win then yeah but I call it a draw if they come back after CD’s are up.

So do I, but that doesn’t neccessarily mean the class is weak or strong, compared with every other class the thief got the least benefits out of the patch and compared with other classes the damage isn’t that high, the sustain is very low even with 20k hp, the only thing we have is stealth, as we did pre patch, so compared with every other class thief has been left out, a lot

Holland.9351:

DHawk.2687:

since thieves have no block or protection

You do have Resiliance of Shadows, which gives 25% damage reduction while in stealth. It might not fit in your prefered build, but we all have to adapt to what we face.

I have to trait into Nature Magic, which is a horrible line, just to pick up the only good trait in it: Protective Ward just so thieves and mesmers can’t insta-kill me from stealth.

I’d much rather trait into another line, but Thief and Mesmer force me into it.

At least you can see a Ranger coming from a mile away, unlike a Thief or Mesmer. Sometimes you just need to run away. For a thief, sometimes you just have to stealth and leave. If you can’t handle Rangers, avoid them until you can.

yes i have it, doesn’t do that much
i can handle it, i was just porposing a balancing idea
that’s it, i can say that over and over tho xD

MattyP.6954:

DHawk.2687:

MattyP.6954:

DHawk.2687:

Shadelang.3012:

@DHawk. Because our competition (thieves and mesmers) always has the capability of ambushing us leading with a stun. And its not uncommon to lose the majority of our health pool in the first few attacks. That invuln can be the only chance a ranger has of recovering. As the range from the longbow is easily negated by ambush tactics.

I’d aggree pre patch, but post patch our damage isn’t as high as ppl always think
e.g. i have 2,85k power and 250% crit damage on my thief, a bs on a ranger, depending on his build will do 8-10k damage (10 only if you are very very lucky)
that is not a lot of damage considering you need to be stealthed and attack from behind (yes stealth makes it easier but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a hard move, especially in combat)
so i can get the ranger half health to max 40%, the stun is long worn off, a smart ranger will use #4 followed by #3 then the heal and then #2
thief dead
I’m not trying to badmouth or anything like that,
and I’ve played ranger for a long time myself so i kinda sorta know what I’m talking about ^^
if you react fast enough it isn’t that hard to kill a thief, when he attacks you when your own health is at max.
or does anyone disagree?

It’s not an invuln. We still take Condition damage under the effects of signet of stone.

And, btw, a smart ranger would get the hell out of Longbow and switch to a melee weapon to, you know, deal with you in melee range.

tbh switching to a melee weapon is what i always hope for, the only thing I’m “afraid” of as thief is the range and rapid fire
that’s about it
switching to the melee to fight is a blessing, at least for me, but i play dd i don’t know about dp, should be the same tho
and well yeah, you still take condi damage, but thieves hardly ever play condi, and i they do they won’t start the fight with a backstab, meaning the whole ambush theory is irrelevant

PS nice to have a discussion without random fanboys cussing all the time crying about kitten being op

I have a pretty decent strategy for countering thief which involves first trying to get the LB4 off. If that fails (a good thief usually dodges it) and Lightning Reflexes is on CD, I switch to GS and hit 4, a successful block is a knockback/interrupt. Then GS3, Signet of Stone, GS2, Lightning Reflexes, switch to LB, etc etc.

as i said, for me, LB is the greatest threat, not considering the trapper condi ranger BULLKITTEN ^^

Phantom Master.9582:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Every second the mesmer is getting off cooldowns from stealth is a second your abilities are coming off cooldown too.
Statements like “stealth or blink away until I burn all my skill cd” suggests to me that you don’t understand the ebb and flow of it.

Mesmer cds are not short.
Stealthing and blinking costs utility skills.
Every time a mesmer creates distance with stealth or blink, they have burned a cooldown. They don’t magically get to make you burn yours, without burning theirs.

Really nice argument there buddy. Having more stealth is definitely nice, its much more forgiving than before the patch though, and that turns some people off.(Including me)

PU is not as ridiculous as people think, it brings us closer to thieves and that’s great since we share roles in PvP. Now we can actually keep up with them, despite PU being boring.

tbh you don’t keep up, you surpass ^^

TheMurkMuffin.8213:

Ragion.2831:

As someone who has played a lot of thief (a few thousand matches) and fought against a lot of them on other classes, the problem with thief (as well as mesmers) is stealth, those two classes have way too much of it. I dont see it as even halfway decent design to allow any class to always be able to vanish into thin air, remain untargetable and reset a fight while simultaneously being able to kill anyone in less than 5 seconds. If there was more counterplay to this like reveal skills with CDs or traits with ICDs that block skills from stealth.

The damage, getting outnumbered, even evades would be perfectly fine If stealth was severely limited, better access to reveal for other non stealth classes and all other classes have a few mobility skills even if not as much as thief or mesmer.

This is a joke…right?

just had the same thought, dude if you really played thief that much, you’d know that there are so many ways to counter a thief trying to go stealth and countless ways to counter him in stealth
but we can say that over and over and over and over and over again
the crying will never stop…

incase you are interested in DD i have a post on it https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Viable-Strong-Allrounder-D-D-build/first#post5300042
that might help you out, but dd isn’t what it used to be, sadly

apharma.3741:

DHawk.2687:

but the difference is, that thief needs the stealth to maintain it’s dps, mesmer does not, ranger does not etc.
they stealth time mesmer had pre patch was fine, and noone asked for a buff
or am i mistaking? :/
what they did is make mesmer somewhat the new thief, just stronger

The problem is clones were meant to be part of the defence of mesmers but clones without giving the mesmer stealth don’t confuse anyone. Added to that the removal of clone death traits and there’s really no punishment either for mowing down clones which are also the source of a mesmer burst.

My question to you is, where would a mesmer get survivability and how do they gtfo without stealth? They have blink and phase retreat which is nice in PvP where you can shortcut up a ledge etc. Outside of that they have a F4 distortion and that’s kinda it.

You can trait signets for distortion and I do in PvE (mainly for the signet heal to keep phantasms up) but generally signets are pretty poor. Midnight is alright but it’s essentially like eles signet of air, alright but you wouldn’t pick it.

If you pick sword offhand or use the scepter main hand they do have a block but currently they’re kinda clunky and unlike other blocks they only block 1 attack then leave you stuck in a counter animation for follow up burst.

So yes, mesmers do need stealth and while the increased duration of PU wasn’t asked for recently people weren’t happy with PU after the boons were watered down. The increase in duration allows you to really slip away from a bad situation especially in WvW.

Don’t take my word for it though play a build without PU in WvW and you’ll see how little it helps you escape. In PvP it’s neither here nor there but certainly helps your personal survivability at the cost of your team survivability by not going inspiration and illusion.

As i said before i don’t really mind the long stealth uptime when fighting a PU mesmer with zerker stats, that’s managable
and mesmers are able to get out of a fight without PU, the stealth was enough, at least in my opinion
the only PU build i really do hate is condi, condi is so strong post patch, add that to PU and at least for a thief it’s almost unkillable, mostly if i see a PU mesmer, no matter if he just entered wvw, if he’s at full hp, i won’t engage, it’s just not worth it

Nachyochez.9758:

As a mained thief and someone very much enjoying ranger atm, I might be able to shed a little light here.

The last patch hit thief hard. The lack of reliable stun/immob breaks, the low basic vit, and the changes to traited power took a LOT out of their sails. In addition, Ranger got some new toys that specifically help it to handle bursts. It’s not going to flip many games, but it does change the scope of the matchup when a Thief runs onto a ranger.

The fact it, even in full Carrion, Valk, or Cav gear thief is still glass. It relies on constant movement, stealth, and evasion tactics to be able to take players down. Getting hit, even a few times, hurts. Given how the Rapid Fire skill works, it makes it VERY potent against a thief and thus reduces the margin of error from ‘slim’ to ‘none’. You do, however, have a few options.

Using Steal with Sleight of Hand is an excellent way to handle any channeled abilities you come across. In addition, Scorpion Wire is handier than a lot of people give credit for. As Shedalang said, many of Ranger’s best burst is telegraphed once you’re used to seeing it. With every weapon set there are also a few evade tricks; if you’re using D/D pop a #3 to close some distance and evade a second round of multiple shots.

These are just off the top of my head, but I just wanted to show there are options. That said, as others are saying, Ranger is a bad match for thief. It doesn’t make Ranger OP or Thief any more than it makes Rock and Scissors OP/UP.

thanks for shedding some light

bhagwad.4281:

Thief stealth =/= mesmer stealth.

For one, a thief can’t stack stealth in a fight without painting a massive target over his head saying “I’m stealthing! Do something! You know I’m here”. As a mesmer, here are things I can do to counter thief stealth stacking:

1. GS 5 on BP or Refuge
2. Focus 4 on BP or Refuge
3. Stand in the circle and disrupt the stealth stack chain
4. Cast Chaos storm on it

Other classes can do even more. I mean…you know the thief is there! That red circle is a huge marker.

Next. A thief’s main burst from stealth comes from close to you – right behind you in fact. Now I’ve suffered with this just like any mesmer…I’ve always thought stealth was cheesy, but there is at least something you can do. If the thief doesn’t stack stealth, I know he has around 3 seconds to position himself behind me. I might not always succeed in preventing a BS…but I have a shot.

A mesmer’s stealth skills on the other hand are instant apart from Mass Invis (which they can start casting before their other stealths run out). Instant casts means no counterplay to prevent it – unlike a thief. Torch stealth is immediate. Decoy is immediate.

Next – a mesmer doesn’t have to be in melee range to initiate a decent burst. Completely unlike a thief for whom, burst = behind you.

So please stop pointing to thieves and saying “Oh, thieves can stack stealth”. Sure they can…at great personal risk. Mesmers can stack stealth without huge signs over their heads saying “Here I am!!”

I can’t believe I’m defending thieves here. I mean, I’ve QQ’d about thieves probably more than anyone else – right from the days when MUG could crit. Just check out this 2 year old post of mine about ridiculous thief damage on my mesmer: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Ridiculous-Steal-Backstab-17k-in-sPvP/first

Never ever thought a day would come when I’m defending them!

Thank you for doing so

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Rangers (at least with some builds) counter thiefs pretty well, at least in an 1vs1/duel. But this doesn’t make rangers op. They lack in other scenarios.

i never said they were op
i just wanted a small tweak to rapid fire to make it either not stack vuln or track ppl in stealth
I think ranger is in a good place atm

MattyP.6954:

DHawk.2687:

Shadelang.3012:

@DHawk. Because our competition (thieves and mesmers) always has the capability of ambushing us leading with a stun. And its not uncommon to lose the majority of our health pool in the first few attacks. That invuln can be the only chance a ranger has of recovering. As the range from the longbow is easily negated by ambush tactics.

I’d aggree pre patch, but post patch our damage isn’t as high as ppl always think
e.g. i have 2,85k power and 250% crit damage on my thief, a bs on a ranger, depending on his build will do 8-10k damage (10 only if you are very very lucky)
that is not a lot of damage considering you need to be stealthed and attack from behind (yes stealth makes it easier but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a hard move, especially in combat)
so i can get the ranger half health to max 40%, the stun is long worn off, a smart ranger will use #4 followed by #3 then the heal and then #2
thief dead
I’m not trying to badmouth or anything like that,
and I’ve played ranger for a long time myself so i kinda sorta know what I’m talking about ^^
if you react fast enough it isn’t that hard to kill a thief, when he attacks you when your own health is at max.
or does anyone disagree?

It’s not an invuln. We still take Condition damage under the effects of signet of stone.

And, btw, a smart ranger would get the hell out of Longbow and switch to a melee weapon to, you know, deal with you in melee range.

tbh switching to a melee weapon is what i always hope for, the only thing I’m “afraid” of as thief is the range and rapid fire
that’s about it
switching to the melee to fight is a blessing, at least for me, but i play dd i don’t know about dp, should be the same tho
and well yeah, you still take condi damage, but thieves hardly ever play condi, and i they do they won’t start the fight with a backstab, meaning the whole ambush theory is irrelevant

PS nice to have a discussion without random fanboys cussing all the time crying about kitten being op

Wolfric.9380:

Its good to have a zerker counter and especially a crit thief one. It slows down the fight. The last thief did need four attempts and over a minute to bring me down. If i would have run, i guess i would have escaped. Catching him was heavy to impossible … cloaked very fast after attacks and even sat out 15s in stealth … that is much more anoying ^^. (had him to about 20% after the first round)
The condi ranger with lots of cleanse got me much more easy :-). And necros tend to destroy me ….
But i enjoy seeing that zerker meta in despair when they attack me.

well, imho opinion condi is bullkitten anyway
takes little to no skill at all and is very successfull

but that’s just how i feel ^^

apharma.3741:

DHawk.2687:

1 question, are mesmers supposed to be a stealth class?

Considering they have had 1 weapon and a few utility slots that grant stealth since day 1, yes.

That’s without mentioning that no-one worth balancing the game around should be getting confused by mesmer clones for longer than a second without some form of stealth to lose that giant red target.

We could ask the same of rangers, engineers and soon to be guardians with trapper runes as they have access to stealth in some way in various amounts. There was a nice post on reddit about stealth uptime a while back, sadly finding it will be like finding a needle in a very big haystack.

but the difference is, that thief needs the stealth to maintain it’s dps, mesmer does not, ranger does not etc.
they stealth time mesmer had pre patch was fine, and noone asked for a buff
or am i mistaking? :/
what they did is make mesmer somewhat the new thief, just stronger

Shadelang.3012:

@DHawk. Because our competition (thieves and mesmers) always has the capability of ambushing us leading with a stun. And its not uncommon to lose the majority of our health pool in the first few attacks. That invuln can be the only chance a ranger has of recovering. As the range from the longbow is easily negated by ambush tactics.

I’d aggree pre patch, but post patch our damage isn’t as high as ppl always think
e.g. i have 2,85k power and 250% crit damage on my thief, a bs on a ranger, depending on his build will do 8-10k damage (10 only if you are very very lucky)
that is not a lot of damage considering you need to be stealthed and attack from behind (yes stealth makes it easier but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a hard move, especially in combat)
so i can get the ranger half health to max 40%, the stun is long worn off, a smart ranger will use #4 followed by #3 then the heal and then #2
thief dead
I’m not trying to badmouth or anything like that,
and I’ve played ranger for a long time myself so i kinda sorta know what I’m talking about ^^
if you react fast enough it isn’t that hard to kill a thief, when he attacks you when your own health is at max.
or does anyone disagree?

Wolfric.9380:

Eles usually say no :-).
It counters zerkers. But als ele you do low damage when keeping it up. Its a strong burst absorb when activated right. I does not help against conditions, or most tank builds.
So of course anny zerker expecting to blow the ele fast with heavy hits will be shocked if it´s up :-). And the meta is ….

if you look at a thief tho, not considering sword or condi players
you do no more damage, all the ele hast to do is stick in earth, fight won or at least enough time to call for help.
i just think a cooldown on it is better than having it on 24/7, e.g. you see a class is about to use it’s highest burst, switch to earth, let’s say as soon as you are attacked or critted in earth you cannot be critted for 3 sec ( counting in the crit triggering the effect) and has a 5-10 sec cooldown
still strong and viable
thoughts?

apharma.3741:

Mesmer Stealth no PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 3s, 30s CD, 10% uptime.
Decoy: 3s, 40s CD, 7.5% uptime.
Mass Invis: 5s, 90s CD, 5.5% uptime

That is pretty kitten low. I don’t include veil or mimic as they’re specialized uses and generally not worth the opportunity cost.

Mesmer Stealth PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, 30s CD, 20% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 90s CD, 11% uptime

Even using all of them to stack stealth you’re looking at 22s of stealth and waiting 8s before torch is off CD again with decoy you need to wait 18s. If you’re complaining about that what I say next will blow your mind.

Mesmer Stealth PU, reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, between 13s and 24s CD, 25-46% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 32s CD, 18.7% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 72s CD, 13.8% uptime.

Well kitten, what’s happening here? By running the illusions line we get a slightly higher uptime on decoy and traiting mass invis is pretty nice (13.8% uptime isn’t exactly game breaking though) but hey, what’s this with the torch trait? Could it be that this trait is what’s causing the obscene amounts of stealth in WvW? Could it be that maybe PU isn’t as much of an issue as people thought?

Thief stealth:

No SA:
C&D: 3s, 6 ini cost (so 6s CD), 50% uptime.
BP+HS: 3s, 9 ini cost (9s), 33% uptime.
BP+BP: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
SR: 12s, 60s CD, 20% uptime.

It’s also worth pointing out a thief can HS through a smoke field multiple times to stack it (managed 9s myself) and so long as they have any sense and aren’t running auto target they shouldn’t hit anyone. By the time their stealth runs out they will have all or most of the initiative back.

I really don’t want to start on the SA line as you get +1s from a minor and it becomes a lot harder to compare due to the -25% damage minor, the 1 initiative every 3s in stealth trait and whether you run the reduced cool down on deception without even mentioning improvisation.

1 question, are mesmers supposed to be a stealth class?

babazhook.6805:

Is it just me or is infiltrators arrow acting up of late. I seem to be getting a whole lot of “Invalid path to target” of late where I never got them before. This even using it to port up a stairs which i nver had issues with before.

yup if it’s not a flat surface or a flat surface you can walk up to you can’t st on it
but yeah, i had it when you use IA and it takes away the ini, but says invalid pathway
just got slapped in the face by anet ^^

Shadelang.3012:

DHawk.2687:

Holland.9351:

DHawk.2687:

the only thing i dislike about the longbow is that #2 causes vuln and it traces, for mesmer or thief it is kinda unfair

Stealth is a counter to targetting and longbow requires targetting. That’s unfair. Rapid Fire is an answer to stealth. Also, Rapid Fire was cast first, so stealth loses its ability to counter. If stealth was cast first, then Rapid Fire wouldn’t hit anything. So they counter each other.

They can still dodge. I run into Rapid Fire on my Ranger all the time and dodging once takes away the majority of the damage.

i have 22k hp on my thief, if i dodge a zerk rangers rapid fire 1 I’m still below half health, since a ranger can dish out massive long range damage, more than i can with 1 single skill, it’s not fair to make it trace through stealth, since almost all of your stealth skills have a cast time, I’d have to guess when the ranger uses his rapid fire, and if I’m not mistaking it’s a very low cd as well, it’s a single 1500+ (you can go a bit further and still hit the target) skill that will trace you no matter what you do, since thieves have no block or protection stealth won’t do any good, the only way to minimize the damage is by rolling twice, no more endurance left and still took a good chunck of damage, or hoping you can shadowstep out of the range (st is 1200range) or kyte behind an object

It’s imho too stong for a single target long range skill

If you have 22k health and a rapid fire takes over half your health then several things probably happened.

One: He popped signet of the wild. Meaning you should have seen a damage spike incoming and shadowstepped out of range or preemptively stealthed till it was over.

Two: He had moderately high stacks of offensive boons. Some rangers rune self mighting setups but these are very obvious when you fight them and there damage without might is sub par.

Three: He was shooting you in the back. If he had skirmishing then he gains 10% crit chance by hitting you in the back.

Four: If he had marksmanship he had 10% damage increases if hes at full endurance. Forcing him to dodge once will cut his damage before he can burst. Going super aggressive will curb his damage multiplier.

Any two of these together can account for that damage spike. But most are either heavily telegraphed (high boon uptime/enlargement) or they have the potential of being negated (forcing him to dodge/making sure your facing him) You can identify what he has by targetting him.

(Skirmishing will show a bird on his bar (spotter), Marksmanship will show an arrow on his bar until he lands his first attack and his first hit will apply 5 vuln to you and crit. Boon builds will likely be running nature magic so if you hit him and he pops natures ward (protection and aoe weakness) you might wanna watch his fury/might counter as the fight progresses, Signet of the wild will show a symbol of a paw in a a signet on his name and the activation will increase his size)

i know that, and as a thief you are supposed to go super aggressive against a ranger, but oh, rangers have a 6 sec invuln now in which they can still attack, hmmmm

if not for that single stupid skill i wouldn’t say anything, but that signet is just so pathetic, but since it won’t be nerfed anyway, I’d wanted to see a slight reduction to rapid fire.

I never understood why they gave an invuln to rangers, and why the hell it’s the strongest one in the game -.-

Chade.6759:

Actually I was running in WvW and a thief backstabbed my ranger for 14.5k damage, insane damage, didn’t know he was there, no chance to do anything about it.

yeah insane, a backstab for 14,5k meaning he is full zerk signet thief, meaning he used every single skill he had, meaning he is kittened if he doesn’t kill you
14,5k damage, that is what a ranger can dish out by pressing LB 2 at a1500 range
but yeah backstab is op xD
my god…

maybe it’s just me, but shadow steps doesn’t trigger sometimes
to not look like a fool i recorded it happen on shadowplay and checked if it really wasn’t out of range or unstepable terrain, it was all normal, i aimed, clicked, no step, dead

anyone else have this issue sometimes?

i think the warrior was better pre patch, more balanced and more viable, now it’s just a truck load of damage with no skill required to dish it out, that’s why i left warrior

does anyone also think that the earth trait that makes you uncritable in earth a bit too strong, I’d rather have it on a 5-10 sec cooldown
opinions?

Holland.9351:

DHawk.2687:

the only thing i dislike about the longbow is that #2 causes vuln and it traces, for mesmer or thief it is kinda unfair

Stealth is a counter to targetting and longbow requires targetting. That’s unfair. Rapid Fire is an answer to stealth. Also, Rapid Fire was cast first, so stealth loses its ability to counter. If stealth was cast first, then Rapid Fire wouldn’t hit anything. So they counter each other.

They can still dodge. I run into Rapid Fire on my Ranger all the time and dodging once takes away the majority of the damage.

i have 22k hp on my thief, if i dodge a zerk rangers rapid fire 1 I’m still below half health, since a ranger can dish out massive long range damage, more than i can with 1 single skill, it’s not fair to make it trace through stealth, since almost all of your stealth skills have a cast time, I’d have to guess when the ranger uses his rapid fire, and if I’m not mistaking it’s a very low cd as well, it’s a single 1500+ (you can go a bit further and still hit the target) skill that will trace you no matter what you do, since thieves have no block or protection stealth won’t do any good, the only way to minimize the damage is by rolling twice, no more endurance left and still took a good chunck of damage, or hoping you can shadowstep out of the range (st is 1200range) or kyte behind an object

It’s imho too stong for a single target long range skill

aspirine.5839:

messiah.1908:

Thieves are still in a good place
Condi thief got buffed a little bit with traps but other than that they are more if the same
Power thief got nice buff of dmg modifiers
Evade thief pretty much in the same spot

Thus it may seem Mesmer got huge buffed
Where actually they have needed them to be par with other classes

Where did condi thiefs got buffed? They still do not have the most powerfull condi in the game right now, burning afaik? Condi thief is mostly bleeding/poison is it not?

just shows you don’t play thief xD
yes the damage got buffed, but so did every other class’ damage
e.g. pre patch i had 2,2k power and 220% crit damage, my backstabs hit for 9-13k almost all the time
NOW i have 2,85k power, 250% crit damage and you can barely get over 9k xD
but yeah we are so strong
thief is somewhat the weakest class, it works when playing in a group, but 1v1 you always need to have more skill than the other player to even have a chance, 2 players on the same skill lv, thief dies instantly. done deal, If you ask ppl around, especially the good players will ALL say fighting a thief is a joke, no challange at all, if you think thief is so good, try him out and die, over and over again

bhagwad.4281:

This is weird for me. For all of GW2 history, I have disliked thieves. As a mesmer player, they used to make my life miserable. The stealths really used to annoy me and I slowly learned ways and means to at least put up a fight before dying. Auto attacks, throwing up blocks when I expect a BS, running into their black powder to disrput stealth stacking, CC’ing the black powder area, running Mantra of Resolve to instantly clear blinds etc.

But despite all that, I hated thieves. I would single them out on my mesmer and try and take them down. And in all the youtube videos of mesmers fighting thieves, I was rooting for my class to take the thief down. To teach that stealthing little snit a lesson.

All that changed on June 23rd.

I realized this as I was watching a WvW video of a thief and mesmer dueling and to my shock, I found myself rooting for the thief! This has never happened before. And the reason is of course simple.

Now mesmers are the stealthing little snits abusing stealth and bursting…more than the thief ever did. When I saw the thief stealth, I could see the mesmer make some defensive moves – port around, throw up a block to anticipate the time of reveal, CC shadow refuge, CC black powder, run into the black powder field to prevent stealth stacking etc.

But when the mesmer stealthed, there was nothing the thief could do. Apart from Mass invis which has a CD, the other mesmer stealth skills were insta cast. And the mes used Mass invis just as the other stealth was ending – essentially free. I felt bad for the thief. And let me tell you, this has never happened before.

What really gets me is the identity crisis the PU builds have created for me. I used to be the class that could hold the moral high ground with stealth. Clones, porting, deception – was what I would use to fight. Honest deception in the sense that the opponent would be able to combat me fairly.

But this…this repeated camping in stealth for long periods of time and bursting down. That was behavior I despised in thieves. And now we do it!. It’s worse actually because it can be done from range with no counterplay to repeated stealth unlike the thief.

I remember a time before the patch where mesmer PU builds were considered essentially trolling. “Real mesmers” shunned the stealth camping and ran shatter. I never ran shatter myself, because that’s not my playstyle, but hey – shatter was legit. Now that PU has been buffed unimaginably, mesmers have suddenly flocked to this despised trait that was considered “trolly” even before!

And of course…CS. What was Anet thinking with that! Made even worse by MoD recharging in the background.

I never thought I would be saying this. But mesmers are the bad guys now. My class that was my very first character in GW2, the one I have played 80% of my games on, the class that I love to bits really…is the one on the wrong side of the debate here.

It’s an identity crisis. I can’t come to terms with the fact that I’m the cheap one!.

Kudos to those mesmers who don’t run PU and who don’t use the broken CS traits. You do our class proud. I know, I know…I’m in the minority here. It’s just that for all of GW2’s history, the mesmer was my identity.

And now my identity is relegated to “that cheap class”. And boy, does it sting!

Thanks a lot for speaking out the truth and what you think was right, i play DD and pre patch, no matter what class i played, if i got killed by any type of mesmer (well besides condi) I’d tell him gg or something like that, because i knew it took skill to pull of good burst with the mesmer, now it’s just a joke, i can handle PU mesmers if they play full zerk, but it’s still really hard, but condi i just unkillable, no matter what you do everything you can do as a thief is counterable, and the fact that our longest stealth SR is a big AOE kill me sign we have to stay in the whole time or else we become revealed is just a joke when looking at all the stealth insta cast skills of the mesmer.
The biggest problem for me is, the blind on shatter trait, combined with the fact, that illusionary persona is standard now (which is somewhat pathetic) it makes backstabing or CnD almost impossible. i don’t want mesmer to be nerfed to hell, just slightly adjusted

I wish they’d take away blind on shatter, that and a slight nerf to PU condi, PU zerk is fine, no problem with it, but condi is just silly, harldy any skill required for it, but that applies to almost any condi build