Showing Posts For Kellhus.8071:
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Just because you can turn invisible doesn’t mean you’re no longer there.
And for a refuge state, you sure spend a lot of time there offensively.
Fun, sadly, is not quantifiable in terms of making money. Pretending you’re going to be an esport, however, is.
There you have it.
The only conflict I’d see with a/m // bow would be how reliant bow is on condition damage, whereas neither axe or mace use it.
Mindless DPS kids are always trying to get everyone nerfed that survives their hurrdurr alpha strike one-shot desired method of play because thought and actual depth within combat is too much for the average DPSers mind to handle. Offer them a game of chess and they’ll flip out and suggest coin-flipping instead.
“lolololo I jumped this kid first and ubernuked him before he could react, I’m so pro!”
“WTF, this dude survived my uber leet skill one-shot and now I have to adapt… NERF HIM TO THE ABYSS!”/eyeroll
You really have to hit up the thief or mesmer forums to witness this in it’s full glory… but if they kill you it is an L2POMG issue. It’s so easy to not die to them, according to them.
However, if they can’t kill you? Yea, OMGNERF.
Everyone agree with you ( except nubs players coming from wow )
Why would wow players disagree? Even in that horrible pvp system, they have arena, and 4 different pvp maps each with a different game type.
Conquest is fine, as an option.
As the only option, any single would would get this boring quickly. Hell, even WoW developers, the most out of touch pvp developers in the universe, released instanced pvp with three game types.
The idea of a bunker was to counter a glass cannon.. you want to remove this? So a dps can cut through a bunker, while the bunker lacks the dps output to fight back.. and now the defense to stand up to the attack?
I get the logic — but if 100b is on cd, are you really saying that Volley does less damage than axe auto attack? In a group with all the good buffs going I can routinely break 12-14k from a single volley, which is only like 2.something seconds (I think), which is higher damage than I’d think axe would give me over that time.
You could rifle 3, rifle 4 (for vuln), and then within a second go back to GS.
I can see it losing benefit with a mesmer dropping time warp, where you’re stuck autoattacking after you burn through rifle3 and 4 — but outside of that I wouldnt think it that far off.
With easy access to the trait that reduces rifle CD, and give it shot penetration, is swapping between GS 100b and rifle Flurry viable?
Running 20/30/0/0/20 gives you a bonus of 10% on bleeds which you’re getting from rifle, and CDs line up well enough to swap back and forth.
You could run d/d with the same build and still be just as effective.
The RTL cd change only mattered to someone using RTL every 15 seconds (read as: no one).
The heal change didn’t change the fact that we’re still highly mobile with several ways to create lulls in damage being applied against us.
You can optimize based on the changes, obviously, but you can still be successful without changing a thing.
Whether the forum agrees with it or not, there is something wrong with sPvP right now. It doesn’t have nearly the amount of players it should.
Totally my opinion to follow.
I think the problem here starts with the binary sort of logic pvpers use — they make the assumption that the average joe player loves pvp as much as they do, and will actively join into that system given every opportunity. This just isn’t the case, for starters. You have a LOT of people who play because they enjoy PVE. So there is a chunk removed from jump — now, let’s take the player who likes an even portion of both pve and pvp on their plate, and what they get to experience in s/tpvp right now:
1. Constant stream of kitten talking, tells, and general crap from other players telling them how bad they are, to delete, etc etc.
2. Joining as a pug, to face either wildly seasoned players, or teams of players with coordination. In these situations you get stomped so quickly and efficiently there isn’t time or opportunity to learn anything. More to the point? It’s not enjoyable.
I can list more, but it comes down to the same point in that the rapid pvp playerbase is a large reason you don’t have a larger general playerbase for pvp (as well as, if you look at the WoW model for pvp, the reward system). While the pvpers enjoy that aspect of the game enough to push through frustration and negative experiences, the average player plays the game for fun. When something isn’t fun, they don’t play it — and seriously, is there someone out there right now who would regularly call gw2 spvp fun?
How is his assessment of why arena won’t work here any different than what WoW deals with? (You know, the only game with arena) — not even mentioning the same team compostions were always on top of their respective brackets (for example: RMP).
I stopped as a multi-season glad, and if memory serves there were many class builds that were not even remotely viable in most brackets, or at all.
Class balance is fairly atrocious in this game, as it was in WoW (DKs, for example, say.. oh.. the season they came out).. the difference is that WoW knew it, and their pvp was an afterthought, whereas ANET still denies it and their game released with pvp as a fully functioning part of the system, and all their experience from GW1. That is the astounding part.
No offense, but the yell should be “Come at me!”
In GW2 terms “mobility” do mean skills that moves you around, i.e Whirlwind Attack.
The dictionary, in this case, be kitten
I’m talking about Hundred Blades.
Can you link me the “GW2 definition” of mobility, then? Not being facetious at all… I’m seriously curious to know where they say this.
Just ask anyone in-game or in the class forums what they consider mobility. Just like how mob somehow means just one entity rather than a group. Its just generally agreed upon.
This made me laugh..
The term “mob”, in mmo parlance, is a throwback to old MUDs. Mob is a type of NPC, it’s short for “mobile”. One that moves around in a predetermined path, as opposed to one that does not move.
Beyond that, and on topic, in my experience most players do more overall damage with GS. Not because the damage is higher, but because the extra dodging you get from attacks that sling you all over the place will, even accidentally, keep them alive longer. .
People get really confused and treat the answer like it’s a binary good/bad thing — mostly because the internet kids who say exactly that, but still.
Scepter does fine — the problem is that there really isn’t a situation where what it does is the optimal choice. It’s fun, has situational burst, and good single target damage — it’s just so does d/d and staff, and both offer more than that as well.
So yes, scepter will get the job done — the problem, is the other weapon selections can just do a bit more.
I keep seeing this, and how noobish it is.. blah blah blah.
However I have yet to see any math showing why — with the +precision trait for unused signets you can end up with, what 6-8% crit plus the passive benefit of each signet (power, prec, vigor, adren).
What’s the tradeoff? Banners, and replace +prec for unused signets with % chance to bleed on crit? I’m just not seeing it as the clear OMG NOOB selection.
Someone want to enlighten me?
We’re going to have to start mandatory roid testing down there in Arah apparently.
ITT: thieves making excuses why a broken ability is okay when they use it.
I prefer focus in my offhand, I don’t find that dagger offhand offers much of anything (I think it’s the weakest offhand we have).
I love the build, but I changed to focus oh and I swapped the 10 point spite to II to support it because I find having a 1200 range chill on a 16 second CD to be a massive lifesaver when someone is running and I’m stuck between swaps and DS is on CD
Do you play in tournaments?
I do, but the only thing this changes is the skill of the player and quality of teamwork.
d/d is far easier to apply damage without all the ground targeting, and a good portion of the attacks in any attunement are specifically designed to keep you moving around while using them.
I love staff, as long as crap isn’t on me. You can hit hard and take the time to place your effects where they are the most damaging. The moment they are on you the effectiveness starts to drop off because you lose that time. You can stay alive, but you aren’t fighting back with nearly the potency that d/d can at that point.
I don’t personally understand the complaints — I play a warrior/necro/ele, but let me clear up something really quick:
- If I spec and gear to be a bunker, chances are that 1v1 you aren’t going to kill me.. a good player can force me to retreat far faster than a bad one, but to kill me requires some pretty amazing play — he’s got to chill me as I come out of water, and then land that CC when I try to RTL away. They need good burst, but the brains to know when to use it. Admittedly the cards are stacked in my favor OF LIVING, but good players have gotten me before and it’s always, honestly, really cool to watch them just dissect the build like they do and take me apart.
- Chances are I can be really annoying in hotjoin against 2v, 3v, and even 4v1, and tralalala away when things look dire. Note that hotjoin is required, because against those players there is very little coordination and thought, and each player is independently doing his/her 1v1 rotations, and against that sort of play I can be extremely resilient.
- I am not going to kill you, ever, as a bunker. I have literally come across afk players in hotjoins that either come back, or their team sees me attacking, after beating on them for a few seconds. It’s hilarious. People need to understand that damage as a bunker is that bad.
In my opinion, a bunkering ele is no more of a threat than a bunkering necro or guardian in terms of spvp play and the ability to sit on a point and buy time — the real difference is that a bunkered ele is the equal to glass cannon thief or mesmer in that these builds/classes do better than they should in the hands of a bad player, but good players can really work some magic with them.
I think it’s great as advice to point out that you can find your own team and do the same thing, but I do not think that is justification to leave the system that way.
It’s so irritating when people pretend that if you don t like being farmed, the alternative is to make a group and farm people instead.
Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.
I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.
Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.
Video should be titled: “advantages of turning invisible multiple times in fights”
It’s always this way, and the arguments are always the same.
At the end of the day, it’s the bad paid teams who join frees — and sure, you’ll get the play with friends excuses, but it always comes down to the same thing: they get farmed in paids, and get a needed ego boost picking on pugs in frees.
The best part? The people who regularly pvp will be the first to complain when the population drops when these premades farm people right out of queueing.
Condition necromancer is one of the best 1v1 builds when played correctly. It absolutely counters glass cannons.
This is only true if the glass cannon has very poor condition removal.
I would bet money that you’ll see RTL on that list shortly, and some annoying changes to the water line.
Except that the D/D build in question puts out no damage.
The ONLY thing a D/D ele has that makes people mad is RTL, and it’s because it’s a ridiculously good escape for when things are going south. Not a single other aspect of a D/D ele, in a bunker build, cannot be replicated by another class.
If Eles didn’t have RTL, there would be zero complaints about the class.
We can’t talent a fear to last 3 seconds.
One of the 5 d/d attacks applies a condition (I want to say 5, the GT which also applies endurance debuff), and staff really plays as a fall back defensive weapon (outside of wv) with, I believe, 2 marks that apply condition damage.. bleed and a poison.
If you want condition, go scepter/dagger // staff is my take on it.
All builds are built around one trick ponies.
Mesmers – mind wrack
Rangers – trap
wars- 100blades
thieves- backstab
engi -100 nades
guards- spin to winExcept for condi and sustained builds, all bursts are built around some 1 high damage combo.
uh.. 100nades is a build, not a move.
If you think warrior is weak, go play D/D elementalist, then come back to your warrior.
If you learn to play your D/D elementalist properly, and apply the same playstyle to your warrior, you will notice just HOW superior warrior is.
Axe/mace + (hammer or greatsword) warrior is a D/D ele with 50% more damage, 100% more hp, and better control.
Because you arnt supposed to play you D/D ele like you play your warrior. They are on 2 different levels.
Not true at all.. If you look at the warrior bunker traits and abilities, warriors depend on moving in for large bursts, then getting out and kiting during a regeneration phase to rinse and repeat.
It’s the exact same style as D/D ele.
What the hell are you smoking?
There is no warrior bunker build that both utilizes heals and condition removal (basically defining it as a shout build), that is capable of any damage. You’re an annoyance, nothing more — and you have zero AE capabilites. What burst is it you’re making up in your head that we would run in and drop on people?
A d/d ele has way more options, far more reliable condition removal for self/team, buffs on condition swaps, far more mobility, crazy AE damage, and let’s not forget actual protection boons.
But yea, other than being nothing alike, they are totally the same.
There is nothing hard about beating most d/d eles — the vast majorities aren’t built for burst in any way.
The problem is finishing them once you get ahead on them, as they have a million ways to get away from you, heal up, and then re-engage.
If you die to a hammer warrior, you’re asleep at the wheel.
They have the slowest gd swing animations I’ve ever seen, and one of their KBs roots them to swing in a frontal arc.
If you had said GS, I might have believed this wasn’t a troll.. But hammer? C’mon now.
Spvp doesn’t need balancing.. the only reason wow does this is because they flood their own system with gear imbalancing issues. Gear isn’t an issue here.
They need to penalize people for leaving (10 min deserter buff will do just fine), up the base rewards for winning/losing across the board, and kitten put something in spvp to incentivize actually playing spvp besides your lil spvp only number going up.
More and better titles, shorter gaps between cometic gear changes, maybe even unlocking weapon options that don’t exist in pve. kitten do SOMETHING, because I don’t remember the last time I hotjoined and proceeded to play a game with full teams on both sides.
Longsword is good, but the problem as with most weapons is our stupid rage mechanic — for longsword, it’s of course a bleed. For the LB, it’s an AE burn.
You end up with a crap ton of condition damage causing attacks, and either you push condition damage and have no real burst, or you disregard condition damage which is sadly figured into your damage total already, and just hit less hard than you would’ve with an axe or mace.
A staff ele is only as good as the team supporting them.
You can lay down vicious damage if your team is keeping people off you. If, however, it’s like most groups and playing every-person-for-themselves.. then you’re going to be wildly ineffective and feel fairly frustrated.
Personally I don’t think anyone should start with a staff, I think people should start with d/d and learn how to function up close and personal. Maybe you’ll like it, maybe you’ll hate it.. but you’re going to get a good view of what other classes are trying to do to you… and once you learn that it won’t be such an overall shock to you when someone pounces on you while you’re playing a build that doesn’t handle up close as well.
I like how in all your examples (While comical), you relied on a single skill. It failed, and so did you. While this may not be the utter truth in the battles, it sheds some light.
The main reason why warrior feels so underpowered is that people know your class. Warrior has been played to death. And everyone knows how to play against you, because they have fought the likes of you before. Warriors don’t have any “Tricks up their sleeves,” but they aren’t supposed to. At the release, warriors were considered so strong because no one knew how to fight you, they didn’t know the skill chains, and they died. Now, everyone knows.
I think the issue is the lack of creativity in the fights. You seem underpowered, because people know what you are going to do. And I think that point was high-lighted by your comic-relief. Where you relied on your one skill, and when that didn’t work, because everyone and their grandmother knows you rely on that skill, you didn’t fare well. A GS warrior fails because everyone is just waiting for the HB to come, and they pop whatever defensive skill they have and then win the fight because that was the warriors only card.
God I’m so tired of this utterly bad logic.
Are you really trying to tell me warriors have been played to death, but not mesmers or thieves? Not guardians? No class but a warrior has been played at this point?
The difference is that our damage does not come from strong chains, it comes from ONE FREAKING MOVE. If we want to land some burst, we are forced to land a 100b (a move that is completely telegraphed, avoidable, AND roots us), or we have to land an eviserate (a move that is completely telegraphed, and avoidable).
I know exactly what a thief or mesmer is about to do, but I can do nothing to stop it but run away — and THAT is the difference. Many other classes put out very similar damage to me in pvp (because again, my damage is based on single attacks landing) they just can mitigate better while remaining in the fight, while I have to escape and completely disengage to do the same (which puts me at the disadvantage).
(edited by Kellhus.8071)
The summed up issue with warriors is how dang one dimensional they are:
- When a warrior is glass cannon they can put out damage, but they are not hard for any class to kill and have very limited defensive and escape abilities.
- When a warrior is built to bunker, they put out zero pressure in terms of damage (and they don’t bunker particularly well due to issues all their own).
It just comes down to a very simply premise: if you’re not going to provide warriors with the ability to disengage from fights, then they need to take a hit (either directly, or via better mitigation abilities) better than classes who do have that ability.
Personally I think the issues start there. If I spec gs/evis/rifle for dps I should have slightly more survivability since I cannot disengage a fight. If I spec into 1h/shield and bunker, I should have far more survivability since I have neither good mobility nor the ability to disengage a fight.
My favorite response from thieves is “but they are easily killed if you dodge, use all your defensive skills!”.. which, obviously they cannot do.
The problem is that most thieves can use 2 buttons to kill other glass cannons, while having a silly system of stealth for escapes — the thing other glass cannons builds do not get.
The problem isn’t purely how well a guardian can bunker — if he was purely defense, and the outcome was your offense v. his defense, it would be fine. It’s that a bunkering guardian can also put out an absurd amount of damage while taking damage and healing himself.
It’s funny, as a bunkering warrior (Hammer, mace/shield) I can take an absurd amount of damage (in direct mitigation, self healing, and CC to stop your damage).. but killing someone 1v1 is an act of god. Sure, I can annoy you and keep people busy till my team arrives.. but you’re only dying if you’re inexperienced. On my guardian, built with similar damage taking/recover abilites, I can put out so much more damage it’s almost funny.
LOL @ posts saying go play a thief, learn what they did, and then counter it!
You know what they did? They turned invisible and have too many multipliers. The ONLY reliable option is be a class that can bunker, or run from them — neither of which really play along with the notion of “skill based pvp”.
Thief damage is broken, and most good players who love thief classes will openly admit this — it’s really the marginal players who think it’s their skill with a thief that is making some difference, and to them I glad say — pick any class, and run spvp. Feel free to message me. I’ll jump on my thief and show you how you have very few playstyle limiting options to counter me.
The above is really the problem — to counter a thief you have to build yourself as a bunker. There isn’t a single other glass cannon build that this hold true for.
Mesmers lost nothing off of the most common spvp build.
My elementalist kicks butt.
Thieves? Lol, yea. Poor thieves. They lost 15% on pistol whip. I hope the 800239842938429 dagger thieves can recover from a nerf that doesn’t impact them.
Guardian builds that don’t focus on ret are untouched, which is like 95% of them.
I can go on, but this is pointless.
Yes, I think warriors are in a great position. No nerfs needed, no buffs needed. The only questionable skill is hundred blades, but since unlike pistol whip it doesn’t also stun and needs some setup, if you get hit by it you either got forgot to dodge, or the opposing team worked together to get you.
My favorite thing a thief says is “YEA BUT I USED ALL MY ABILITIES TO HIT YOU FOR 13k! IN ONE SHOT”.
Like I didn’t use all my abilities to defend against that shot, but apparently that doesn’t count.
When used, mist form is the best down skill. Have a teammate interrupt the stomper once. Oh wait, you play it like a solo game, never mind. BUFF TEH ELEZ!
THIS +1. This isn’t a solo game.
Unless you play any class with a functional down skill.. thief, mesmer, guardian, etc etc.
But for Elementalists.. yea, team game. Excellent point.
The last thing I want to see is party join spvp, ever… unless it’s only party v. party.
If you’re so terrible that your idea of pvp is farming pugs while under the guise of “OMG I WANT TO PLAY WITH MUH FREINDS!1!” then just go to any of the games that have had their pvp systems decimated and populations driven away by the same.
Haha, I love the “but how much goes into that hit?!?!?!?” nonsense.
You use your abilities and hit for 13k, something is wrong. End of story. The game is specifically supposed to be skill based, meaning that is not supposed to be any part of the system.
Needs a nerf, as do several other skills with silly damage output (Eviserate, for instance).
There is nothing really broken with warriors, just some annoying stuff that really isn’t impacting game play.
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