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What about a might stacking build using staff and scepter? The offhand would be debatable, but I’m still partial to dagger.
Well of Blood is a must, and if you take staff and Mark of Evasion you’ll have perma regen. Well, maybe not perma but something close. That utilizes healing power pretty well.
Staff and scepter both have skills that scale reasonably well with power. Since you’re already using Well of Blood toss in Well of Corruption and Well of Suffering. There’s a good bit of direct damage that utilizes power effectively.
Staff and scepter are already good at condition damage, but Well of Corruption and Deathshroud add some damaging conditions of their own as well. Plus you will have some really long bleeds from Blood is Power that PvE mobs aren’t too good at cleansing.
Your elite could be anything, with Lich offering more damage when you need it and Plague offering more durability. Fleshy would do the same thing he always does.
You’d need a Sigil of Battle in each weapon set. I’d put a Sigil of Corruption on your second set, but Bloodlust or Force would probably work as well. Your runes would have to be might stacking runes (2 strength, 2 hoelbrak, 2 fire). Food could be anything, but I’d go for Rare Veggie Pizza and Master Tuning Crystals.
Traits are a bit more difficult, but you need at least 20 Curses and 20 Blood Magic. This is because of Master of Corruption and Ritual Mastery. I would suggest 0/20/10/30/10. 0/30/10/30/0 could also work. But my suggestion is to take Weakening Shroud, Master of Corruption, Greater Marks, Mark of Evasion, Ritual Mastery, Vampiric Rituals, and Path of Midnight. Deathshroud will be very strong in this build because both #4 and #5 will be great AoE damage. That’s why I suggest Path of Midnight.
In the end, you’ll be looking at a build that can build up might stacks pretty quickly, and has decent damage and durability. Probably not the greatest idea in the world, but it sounds decent to me. Should be great for PvE. WvW is a bit iffy but with wells at least you’ll be doing something. I’d use Focused Rituals if you do go into WvW though.
I might just have to try this out myself.
Thanks. I used to create a lot of builds in my previous MMO, City of Heroes. That was a very different game though with a very heavy PvE focus. I’ve been listening to a lot of the But of Corpse podcasts lately and that got me started on Necromancer builds.
I’ll be giving this one a shot tomorrow.
We asked for long time a way to control minions in Gw1, we used to have like 15-25 minions up before the nerf, then anet attached the amount of minions whit dead attribute at max 10 minions, and we never ever ever get a way to control thems, at least we can just run and somehow the minions comeback at you spawn, in gw1 they just fight untill they are dead or kill the enemy.
Wrong on two counts. With maximum death magic you could get up to 12 or 13 minions. And I believe sometime after GWEN came out we finally got the ability to control minions.
So you would be thinking something like this then?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW7YjQal6taOb07JApHPD90TK+e8IFHHMA-TsAg2CrIaS1krJTTymsNN8YtweBA
I’m interested in the Minion Lord build, but have a few questions relating to the trait choices.
I was wondering why you selected Vampiric Precision without having a high crit chance primarily. But I was also curious why you’d pick Vampiric Master with only the Flesh Golem and Shadow Fiend would be regularly alive. To my novice eyes, it seems better to take Mark of Evasion, Ritual Master, and Fetid Consumption. Then you could use Well of Blood for the heal and take advantage of the healing power from Shaman’s amulet with higher regen uptime and the AoE heals from Well of Blood. My final thought is to change Chilling Darkness to Weakening Shroud. That would allow higher bleed stacking and doesn’t appear to be a big sacrifice. In that case would you suggest using Bone Fiend instead of Shadow Fiend?
To be clear, I’m a pretty low ranked player just getting my feet wet in pvp. But these are just my first thoughts on looking at the build and I was wondering if you could provide some clarification.
Thank you, I didn’t notice that before. The build is wonky, and I failed to notice that the build I posted is different than the one I theory crafted ages ago. You’ll want 0/20/30/20/0, and all of the changes you mentioned above are correct, however the idea behind the build is so that your minions survive long periods of time, that you can siphon conditions from them using Plague Signet, and then transfer them for a burst.
Ah ok that explains it. What would the third Death Magic trait be?
I’m interested in the Minion Lord build, but have a few questions relating to the trait choices.
I was wondering why you selected Vampiric Precision without having a high crit chance primarily. But I was also curious why you’d pick Vampiric Master with only the Flesh Golem and Shadow Fiend would be regularly alive. To my novice eyes, it seems better to take Mark of Evasion, Ritual Master, and Fetid Consumption. Then you could use Well of Blood for the heal and take advantage of the healing power from Shaman’s amulet with higher regen uptime and the AoE heals from Well of Blood. My final thought is to change Chilling Darkness to Weakening Shroud. That would allow higher bleed stacking and doesn’t appear to be a big sacrifice. In that case would you suggest using Bone Fiend instead of Shadow Fiend?
To be clear, I’m a pretty low ranked player just getting my feet wet in pvp. But these are just my first thoughts on looking at the build and I was wondering if you could provide some clarification.
Today I tested an spvp build using carrion amulet and 0/30/10/0/30 traits. It worked pretty well, but I started wishing I had toughness.
I could switch to sigils of earth and rabid amulet, but I’m wondering if 99% crit chance in death shroud is too much when there’s no power behind it. I was thinking the sigils would let me keep bleed pressure up even when in deathshroud thanks to the new trait.
Or would I be better off sticking with my carrion amulet and geomancy sigils and just dealing with the lack of toughness?
I was actually about to post a similar thread, since the patch changed so much I’m not really sure what is the “best” build anymore. My build was hybrid before the patch, and still is. I don’t suggest that though because I often feel like I should be one or the other not both condition and power.
Pre-patch power builds were considered better for zerg v zerg while condition builds were better for roaming. I suspect that’s still the case. Keep in mind that both options will work for both roles, they just have different strengths and weaknesses.
If you zerg v zerg a lot I would suggest you go power. Staff/Axe + Warhorn. I would go 30/0/10/0/30. Take Axe Training, Close to Death, Greater Marks, Unyielding Blast, and Deathly Perception for sure. The rest is up to you. Mix Knight’s and Berserker’s gear. Axe is great for WvW power builds because it gives you a lot of retaliation uptime and retaliation affects everyone that hits you. That can add up to a lot of badges. Staff is basically a requirement. I like warhorn because Axe 3 + Warhorn 5 + Plague Form is a great zerg killer. Especially if you use Superior Sharpening Stones. Also you’ll have a piercing life blast with a ton of crit damage that will be critting greater than 90% of the time. With a 1200 range. Spectral utilities wouldn’t be a bad bet, since Spectral Armor has a shorter cooldown and both Spectral Armor and Spectral Walk remain in effect during DS.
Of course there is a chance that I’m doing hybrid builds all wrong and they are actually the best thing ever. I don’t really know.
(edited by Morvian.3270)
I was able to crit 100% of the time earlier today in the mists with a 50% starting crit chance. I haven’t tested since the second patch.
Curses used to be a good example of well-designed Grandmaster traits. Each choice was supported by a bonus the trait line gave you. Lingering Curse was supported by the Condition damage and Withering Precision was supported by the Precision. Smite, meanwhile, did not benefit at all from condition duration as both grandmasters were power-based.
Sadly, ANet saw fit to swap this around. Spite now has one Power option and one Condition Duration option, but Curses now has one condition damage option and one random option (as it doesn’t really get improved by the Precision anymore due to the long cooldown). Why could they have not left Withering Precision as-is?
Ah yes. Why couldn’t they let us maintain a permanent damage debuff that would be more powerful than perma protection after the weakness changes in this patch?
Such a cruel world. facepalm
Honestly you guys make me shake my head. The whole point of build diversity is that you give something up to get the things you want. The reason we’ve had “the” condition build or “the” wells build up until now is that there was a limited number of traits even worth taking. Complaining that it’s hard to make a terror + burning build is ridiculous. Of course it’s hard. That’s a good build.
Besides, you don’t need 2s fears to get two terror ticks. You need any value over 1s. For sPvP these changes will split condition builds in two directions – Rampager’s and Rabid. The Rampager’s builds will be like power glass cannons, except they deal extra damage through conditions instead of critical damage. The Rabid builds should take as much access to weakness as they can, because that condition will be a strong asset to help you stay alive long enough to outlast your opponent.
tldr:
Rampager’s – Burning
Rabid – Weakness
I agree with you. In fact, confusion is more in line with the Spiteful Spirit Necromancer of GW1 than the retaliation we currently have so much access to. I see no reason why scepter 3 couldn’t cause confusion instead of doing extra direct damage per condition. It’d have to keep the life force gain. I have no idea how we could get AoE confusion, but it’d be fantastic. I don’t think burning will do much to help us outside sPvP.
So several threads recently have got me wondering about power builds again. Looking at a build calculator for the last hour or so has gotten me nowhere. Basically what I’m trying to do is make a tanky power build that uses at least some minions. I want to make two versions of this build. One for sPvP and one for WvW. The WvW one will probably be used for the odd dungeon run if a guild mate ever needs help or if I ever get around to doing the last personal story quest and have to go to Arah. Here’s the lines I’m thinking along. I’m sure I need some pointers from those more experienced with power necros than I am.
Weapons:
I’m almost certainly going Staff and Dagger/Warhorn. I love the Staff and want to give Dagger a try on a decent build. Warhorn is there mostly for the speed boost, as I don’t think I’ll be able to fit a speed boosting utility on my bar. Still, the other effects of the horn seem pretty nice anyway.
Traits:
I’m struggling here deciding which way to go. I could go with 30 Death or 30 Blood for a minion trait, or I could go 30 Spite for Close to Death. sPvP I’m leaning toward Close to Death. The other options are Fetid Consumption, Death Nova, and Necromantic Corruption. Fetid Consumption I like a lot for condition removal, and I’m leaning toward it for the WvW/PvE version of the build. The build also lacks other condition removal outside of Putrid Mark, but I suppose Putrid Mark could do well enough on its own if need be. Death Nova is really popular, but I don’t understand the appeal. It seems to only put down a poison field. While I understand that poison is great for limiting healing and being a combo field to provide weakness, I’m not sure I get why people love it so much. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. Necromantic Corruption I’d only really consider for sPvP boon removal, as it doesn’t look like the build is going to have any other access to boon removal. What’s the best path to take for the grandmaster? Blood Magic, Death Magic, and Spite are probably going to end up getting all my points – unless there’s a reason I should consider a different spread?
Skills:
I want to use Blood Fiend for the heal, mainly because my eyes were recently opened to how effective the little bugger is over time. For utilities I like Bone Minions and Flesh Wurm. The third spot is open for discussion. For my elite I’m leaning toward Flesh Golem, though I may use Lich Form in the WvW version sometimes for the fun of it.
Gear:
For sPvP it’s a tough decision. I don’t want to go Berserker because I want to be more durable than that. Knight’s amulet gives vitality instead of toughness in sPvP so it isn’t terribly attractive, but at least it includes precision. Soldier’s is probably my best option for toughness, but lacks precision. What’s likely to be the most effective choice of amulet?
For WvW it’s a bit easier since I can mix Berserker’s and Knight’s gear.
In both cases I’m leaning towards a 4/2 split of Runes of the Earth and Runes of the Grove. Roughly 20% uptime on protection (considering boon duration) without having to do anything seems nice. Would I be better off with a different choice?
Thanks to anyone that takes the time to respond. I’ve mostly played only condition or hybrid Necro builds, so I’m not really sure how to put together a power build.
The Crossing isn’t the Scythe skin. That’s a lantern on a long piece of bone. I forget the name of the Scythe skin atm, but I want to say it’s only available during Halloween and can’t currently be obtained.
Final Rest is what the OP was referring to. It’s currently on the TP for about 5-6 gold. Not terribly expensive. I use it on my Necro and absolutely love the look.
Bonus Item: New Trait
Spite 30 – Jagged Bones
When one of your minions dies, a Jagged Horror spawns from its corpse. Jagged Horrors no longer degenerate. You can control a maximum of five Jagged Horrors.
Explanation:
Why the spite trait line? Mainly because it was the only one with only a single minion related trait. The others have 2, 3, or 0. Why 30 points? Because if someone could have this with both Fetid Corruption and Death Nova that would probably be terrifying. Could it be buffed further to make it a better trait? Absolutely! I’d love to see some ideas for it.
Minions are generally regarded as a weak build option. Any minion build that does work well typically uses only a few minions. Why? A big reason is that the minion active skills, which should provide compensation for the lack of utility skills on your bar, mostly fail to do that. They also don’t mesh well together, leaving a full minion Necromancer with a very questionable skill bar.
Skill # 1: Blood Fiend – Taste of Death
Overall this active isn’t bad, but it doesn’t really reward you for having additional minion skills. Comparing it to the other two Necro heals leaves you wondering why anyone would bring a Blood Fiend without having Death Nova or Fetid Consumption. In fact, those two traits are probably the only reason to have one of these things right now. Well of Blood, by contrast, provides a combo field. Consume Conditions not only removes conditions but it allows you to heal more for each condition removed. Taste of Death has no condition removal or scaling heal.
My suggestion:
Add an effect that provides an additional heal for each Jagged Horror you control, sacrificing those as well as your Blood Fiend. While the current cap for this would be 2-3 Jagged Horrors (if Runes of the Lich do what I think they do AND an extremely unlikely scenario occurs allowing you to have two alive from Reanimator at the same time) I think an additional trait should be added allowing more Jagged Horrors at once. At any rate, the additional heal should be small. Something like 400 per Jagged Horror. This would make Blood Fiend slightly more competitive with Well of Blood and Consume Conditions, which are currently more effective – often times even on minion focused builds.
Skill # 2: Bone Minions – Putrid Explosion
This is actually one of two minion actives that I think already works great. However, it is somewhat confusing that it’s a blast finisher. What would it be blasting on a full minions build? Either Chilblains or a Death Nova field. That’s it. Still, I wouldn’t want them changing this skill.
Skill #3: Bone Fiend – Rigor Mortis
This skill is not effective as is. Were there more than one Bone Fiend, or a targeting UI to control minions, it’d be better. On top of rarely being effective, Rigor Mortis has a long cooldown. More than one try during a single fight is unlikely.
My suggestion:
It seems fairly obvious that the point of this skill was to allow the melee minions to reach your target. I suggest changing it so that the Bone Fiend immediately immobilizes your target and itself for 2-3 seconds. To add synergy with other minion skills, I would suggest adding a vulnerability to the effect as well. 2 stacks + 1 per minion you control. Keep the long cooldown.
Skill #4: Shadow Fiend – Haunt
I’m not sure what the intended purpose is for this skill. As it stands, it’s mostly a makeshift “Minions attack this please” button. It certainly can’t be used as an interrupt.
My suggestion:
Increase the cooldown and remove the channel to make it an interrupt OR increase the cooldown and make it an AoE the size of an unupgraded mark. The second choice should also make it spawn a darkness combo field. I include two suggestions here because I’m unsure whether it’s a poorly designed interrupt or an uninteresting opener. Either option should go well with other minions. A quick blind could prevent minion wipes by blocking powerful AoEs. An opener/combo field would allow minions to reach/begin combat more safely than they do now. The combo field would also go nicely with Bone Minions and Bone Field.
Skill #5: Flesh Wurm – Necrotic Traversal
I like the general idea of this skill. A stun break and teleport at the expense of a minion. The problem is the current design either teleports you into danger or encourages you to leave your minion out of combat range.
My suggestion:
Make this skill the escape our class needs. All that needs to happen is the minion and the Necromancer need to swap places. Then the minion can explode as normal and the skill will be great. Making the poison into a combo field would be somewhat redundant if the Necro also had Death Nova, but would add some synergy.
Skill #6: Flesh Golem – Charge
This skill is the other active that I think is great as is. Solving the problems with getting stuck on geography would be enough for me. A visual indicator prior to activating the skill might help as well, to avoid accidentally hitting it before the minion can reach the target.
Thanks for reading everyone! Thoughts/comments on any or all of these ideas? What do you think needs changed for a full minion build to be more successful? Check my first post below for a new trait idea.
I’m not entirely sure what possessed ANet to take such a drastically different art style on Necro minions this time around. I also struggle to understand why they changed the mechanic so much from GW1. The need for corpses was one of my favorite things about Necro.
If I can have my GW1 Flesh Golem skin, I’ll be happy. If I can get GW1 Bone Minion skins too, that’s just icing on the cake. I actually like the Flesh Wurm and Bone Fiend how they are now. Oh god, I almost forgot. Literally any alternate skin for Blood Fiend. Anything. I don’t care if it’s a mini unicorn with butterfly wings – a likely result given half the legendary weapons – just make it less gross. Having that minion floating around makes me worry it might drip on things – important things.
In all seriousness, I love this idea. I’d pay good gems for some minion skins. I’d pay even better gems (thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions!?!?) for my minions to work more effectively.
Today I’m presenting for the consideration of the community three variants of a minion build for the Necromancer. Two include team support aspects. I feel that these two aspects of Necromancer potential are not given enough attention. These builds are mostly just an idea at this point, as I need to farm for gear before I can test them. It is my hope that by presenting them I might gain some new ideas from the community, but I also hope that newer Necromancers might get some ideas of their own to realize that not every Necro has to focus on glassy dps builds.
This variant is one of the two group support variants. It has excellent healing power which matches up nicely with the constant AoE regen and the 32 second Well of Blood. Transfusion does not scale with healing power, but is a powerful heal anyway and should be included in the build. Well of Blood + Bone Minions means AoE retaliation for your other minions and party members that are in the well. Meanwhile, you are quite capable of tanking for your minions and party members with a high base health and good toughness. Your runes will help with this role by providing protection when it’s most useful: at the beginning of a fight. Finally, Plague Signet combined with Fetid Consumption is a powerful automatic AoE condition removal tool. Combined with the full AoE transfer from Putrid Mark, it should allow your party to ignore all but the most serious condition stacking. Depending on personal taste, party makeup, and testing results it may prove effective to replace Minion Master with Ritual of Protection. Such a change would increase your durability, and that of the party, but would also add pressure to keep your Shadow Fiend and Flesh Golem standing. I imagine this variant being best at PvE, but your mileage may vary. (NOTE: Fetid Consumption may or may not be working with Bone Minions. Last I checked it was not, but that was some time ago.)
This variant leaves out healing power to gain some precision and critical damage. The minions are swapped out for ranged versions. In order to provide team support the Plague Signet + Fetid Consumption combo and Transfusion are still included. In addition, allies that stand near you will gain 3 stacks of might and a fury boon every time you use your healing skill. Every time you summon and sacrifice your blood fiend, you will give this buff in a small area around you. This build loses access to protection entirely, but gains Vampiric Master and less reliance of 600 range combat as compensation. Depending on test results and personal preference, it may prove effective to replace the weapon sigils with something triggered by critical hits. I imagine this variant being good for WvW zerging, and in that context I suggest using sigils of fire and viewing your blood fiend as mostly as a buff/heal rather than an actual minion. (NOTE: The internal cooldown on runes of altruism is only 10 seconds. If you sacrifice your blood fiend, the runes will be ready to trigger again when you are able to resummon it. Therefore it is ALWAYS better to sacrifice it than to let it die when it starts taking damage. I don’t recommend sacrificing it if no allies are next to you and the Blood Fiend is not in danger.)
This final variant ignores team support entirely. It is intended for solo or small group roaming in WvW, or for those who prefer a more aggressive PvE minion build. Bone Fiend can easily be swapped for Bone Minions in PvE dungeons, and I suggest Shadow Fiend over Flesh Wurm in open world PvE. Signet of the Locust is excellent for it’s movement speed, but it’s also a highly underrated heal. Especially if it’kittenting multiple targets. Say, two guards or a guard and enemy player. If you end up running with a zerg, Signet of the Locust will probably be equivalent to a second healing skill since it will hit 5 targets all the time. This build uses Soldier’s gear for maximum durability while running solo, since Necromancer has very few escape tools. Close to Death and Infiltration runes provide a massive damage boost against foes at <50% health. Try to use DS #3 to stop an opponent from healing when they get low, and then hit them with Flesh Golem charge. This will allow you to capitalize on their low health.
Yeah necro is actually pretty durable. If you want to you can make a build with very high protection uptime for yourself and nearby allies. On top of having the largest base health pool of all the classes. Put some toughness in your gear and nothing will bring you down. Your damage won’t be great in a build like that, but you will certainly outlast most opponents. Most necros simply don’t choose to build this way because they want to go for a more damaging build with either power/crit damage or conditions/precision bleeds.
Zero escapes maybe. I have no problem with our stun breakers really. Necrotic traversal could use a change so you swap places before the other effects. Then that would be an escape. But other than thakittens good. Spectral walk is fantastic. Plague signet could transfer blind instead of counting as a miss, but works pretty well anyway.
The only place I feel behind as a necro is in spvp and I’m fairly sure that’s just because I haven’t worked out an spvp build I like yet. In pve and wvw I feel on par with other classes. Especially when I hit a zerg with staff 2-5 and laugh maniacally as they scatter from the damage and my allies mop up.
I have a few people I want you to duel. You won’t think the playing field is so even after that. In team fights we are a bit more useful but not much, the second they identify you are a necro you get locked down immediately. This is something my suggestion would bring out of practice.
Seeing as my comment was plainly referring to wvw and pve I fail to understand how dueling is relevant. As far as your comment on team fights…I only ever get focused if I turn on plague or lich. In both cases I’m prepared for that. I mean plague is basically designed to be a damage sponge anyway. During the rest of the fight its pretty much all aoe being flung back and forth. I’m pretty good at aoe. Sure sometimes a thief shows up and has to be chain feared and killed with the scepter skills, but wvw is mostly a matter of placing my marks properly.
The few times a stun breaker is needed, any of our current ones do the job admirably. I did, however, admit that we do lack escapes. If my side starts losing, I know a waypoint is in my near future. I don’t think necromancers are alone there though. Thieves and mesmers are the only classes I see routinely escape a losing battle.
As long as it had awesome animations and at least a whirl or leap finisher I would love it.
I see it as more of a tank weapon for us than a cleaving melee weapon. Along the lines of the Guardian hammer. But, you know, dark and stuff.
Zero escapes maybe. I have no problem with our stun breakers really. Necrotic traversal could use a change so you swap places before the other effects. Then that would be an escape. But other than thakittens good. Spectral walk is fantastic. Plague signet could transfer blind instead of counting as a miss, but works pretty well anyway.
The only place I feel behind as a necro is in spvp and I’m fairly sure that’s just because I haven’t worked out an spvp build I like yet. In pve and wvw I feel on par with other classes. Especially when I hit a zerg with staff 2-5 and laugh maniacally as they scatter from the damage and my allies mop up.
Axe has been hitting pretty hard actually and working great for finishing off targets that I hit with my marks.
I do, however, probably need to change my sigils from Earth to some thing else. The precision just isn’t there. Geomancy perhaps? I have found Signet of the Locust to be awesome for moving around. The heal hasn’t come into play yet but I’m sure it will at some point.
My final debate is between Plague and Take Root. Both have been very good against enemy zergs.
Awesome thanks for the reply! Do the stats look ok or should I be going for a different mix of gear?
Honestly, probably the appearance of minions. I’d actually consider using them if they looked more like the GW1 versions.
In the realm of the possible, I’d change Flesh Wurm so that the caster and minion swapped locations before the poison/blast finisher went off. Making us sacrifice it to teleport is fine, but the way it’s set up right now makes it difficult or dangerous to use the blast and the poison. DS already gives us a teleport that goes toward enemies, Flesh Wurm should go away from them.
For example, suppose I went with a build like this – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW3djMat7lbOb87JApCXD9oXddO6RwGzMA-j0xAIMBZaBMVJQpwioxWRLiGr6GTHTEVLEwiFA-w
What might I want to change about it?
Ok so I’m just returning from a long break and I’m enjoying the experience so far. I had just hit 80 before leaving so now I’m trying to figure out what build I want to go with. My gear is all Carrion at the moment, largely because I’m floundering through different builds to see what I like. I’ve been running a wells/marks build the past few days that seems ok but has some problems. My idea had been to deal decent damage while offering support to the group. To that end, my utilities are all wells and I use the Ritual of Protection trait in combination with good Well of Darkness and Well of Blood placement to support the party. I have two major issues with the build right now though. Firstly even with the cooldown reduction the wells don’t come back quick enough. Every other fight I might as well be afk in dungeons. Secondly the build works great in zergs for WvW, but if I have to cross the map from a waypoint to meet up with them I better hope I don’t run into anyone. I can’t fight on open ground or escape from an enemy. Even if it is just one person, they’ll probably kill me because I effectively have no utilities against them.
So basically, I’m looking for a clean slate. A new build that I can use for dungeons, fractals (which I haven’t started yet), and WvW (both zerg and solo/small group). Some of my favorite things I’ve found on the Necro are Unyielding Blast, Terror, Axe #3, and Bone Minions. If there is a way to combine some or all of those into a coherent build then I’d love it.
What sort of builds are out there that seem to fit what I’m looking for? There used to be a lot of build threads when I left, but I don’t see many of those now.
I haven’t tried a build like that.
Still, the answer would depend on your definition of viable. If by viable you mean good, I’d have to say no. If you mean something more like “can I solo quests and PvE while staying in death shroud as long as possible” then I’d say yes.
The thing about Death Shroud is that it is really not designed to be used for lengthy periods. It locks you out of your utilities and healing, and prevents weapon swapping. Plus there are few traits that remain in effect the entire time you are in DS. They either provide a buff for a few seconds on entry, or cause an effect on exit. That’s why “shroud dancing” builds were popular a while back. A build that focused on generating life force and flashing in and out of DS would still be pretty good I’d think. Probably better for PvE than WvW because DS has limited AoE damage, though it might work for roaming.
You’ll want at least 15 in Curses for the fury boon and Enfeebling Shroud. Then I would put 30 in Soul Reaping for either faster DS (PvE) or stability (WvW). The rest would kind of depend on your personal taste. Picking up Terror might not be a bad idea if you went hybrid damage. Soul Marks is a great option too for recovering life force quickly.
I saw a player running a build today in SPvP that was very bulky. They used DS and boons to stay alive. I thought it was rather interesting since I hadn’t really seen anyone do that before. Now I’m looking to try out a DS focused build, and this is my rough idea. http://tinyurl.com/anjpko2
The basic point is to make heavy use of DS to deal damage and survive, supplementing my damage through retaliation. Survival is further facilitated by chills on my enemy. I feel like the build may suffer from the relatively low critical rate though. Thoughts?
Scepter/Focus does seem good for a hybrid build. It could quickly stack a staggering number of conditions to spread among your foes. Set up a good scepter #3 too.
I’m intrigued by the idea of a build using retaliation as an added damage source. I might have to try that.
As far as lack of mobility, I think that’s a myth.
Quickening Thirst
Spectral Walk
Signet of the Locust
Locust Swarm
Necrotic Traversal
Probably something else I’m forgetting.
The AI isn’t as bad anymore, but the minions have disappointed appearances and the active skills don’t justify losing your utilities.
I suggest hybrid style builds. I really think that the damage with added pressure from conditions is a much more effective build for the Necro. It also opens up a lot more possibilities with weapon and skill combinations.
Going pure conditions essentially makes DS useless, meaning you’re left with no real class mechanic. Having enough power to Lifeblast things to death after you stack a few conditions on them is great.
I’m currently running a 30/25/0/0/15 build that is a ton of fun. I swap my utilities out to suit whatever the situation is.
Is it wrong that my biggest problem with the minions is their appearance? I think the GW1 minions were so much better looking. Except maybe the Bone Fiend. I mean what’s up with the Flesh Golem? And Bone Minions and Jagged Horrors are just…sad.
I’m hoping that an expansion or something adds some minions that look better.
Your problem is highlighted in your own post. You say that a thief can kill you if you don’t dodge or use the right skills.
That’s the point. You have to dodge and use the right skills.
There are thieves that complain about their lack of survivability I’m sure.
Necromancer is far from being underpowered. I see two big problems that affect our class. One is with the traits, the other is with certain utility skills.
1.) Necromancer Traitlines: They’re bad. Really, really bad. Almost every line includes at least one minor trait that either contradicts the playstyle encouraged by the major traits or is of questionable use to begin with:
Spite – Death into Life, Siphoned Power
Curses – Target the Weak
Death – Arguably all of them, since the last one forces you to focus on power.
Blood – Vampiric. It doesn’t go against the theme of Blood Magic, but it’s a terrible trait.
Soul Reaping – This one actually has good minor traits.
Then of course we have certain major traits that don’t do a whole lot for us:
Spite – Spiteful Talisman (bugged, last I heard), Signet Mastery (not strong enough, since it doesn’t let us keep passive effects), Signet Power (lackluster, especially since most of our active effects are situational anyway), Chill of Death (no boon removal, last I heard), Axe Training (inferior to Close to Death in almost every case).
Curses – Reaper’s Precision (LF gain is too low or chance on crit is too low), Banshee’s Wail (not quite strong enough, IMO. Also why is it in Curses?), Withering Precision (probably inferior to Lingering Curse for most people putting 30 points in Curses).
Death – Spiteful Vigor (not strong enough for a master trait, was probably great back when retaliation was stronger), Reaper’s Protection (cooldown is way too long, especially since half the time it doesn’t fear the opponent anyway), Death Nova (poison fields aren’t very good, even if minions worked), Necromantic Corruption (boon removing minion attacks?).
Blood – Vampiric Precision (siphon is too small), Bloodthirst (siphoning isn’t strong enough even with this trait)
Soul Reaping – Fear of Death (bugged last I tried it, radius seems tiny, really long cooldown), Mark of Revival (fear duration too short to get a revive off), Decaying Swarm (in what way is a locus swarm helpful at 25% health?)
2.) Utility Skills: Some of them are really great. Others are questionable or just terrible. Corrosive Poison Cloud is fairly weak, all of the minions need better active skills (the AI is another matter entirely, but even if it worked the minion actives would be too weak), Signet of Spite is a waste of a slot, Signet of the Locust needs a stronger active or a shorter cooldown, Spectral Armor has a huge cooldown, and Spectral Wall is bugged and has a tiny combo field.
Even with the problems I outlined above, I feel the Necromancer is a competitive class. In WvW the focus is not on 1v1s or duels, but on team fights. Wells and marks excel there. 1v1s and duels are more common in sPvP or tPvP. It’s all about making sure your build is right for the situation and making sure you use your skills and dodge rolls effectively.
Another thing I’ve personally started to do is use gear that mixes power and condition damage. I wish there was power, condition damage, and toughness on gear. Precision is good too, but you don’t need a ton of it. Power really makes deathshroud shine, and all that damage coupled with bleeds and poison damage makes for some impressive kills.
This patch was almost entirely focused on non class stuff and tooltip fixes. I’m sure the other classes are whining just as much.
I don’t think you’d see a huge loss in damage if you take Withering Precision. Especially in a PvP situation. It’s more important to prevent your bleeds from getting cleansed than it is to make them last longer. Anything that isn’t a full cleanse will take weakness or cripple instead of your bleed stacks. What it ultimately comes down to though, IMO, is your playstyle. Do you use staff way more than scepter? If so, Withering Precision is for you.
In a small scale PvP, such as hot joins or tournaments, condition builds are the most popular. I find those boring though, so I’ve been experimenting with some power builds. I’ll refrain from giving an exact build because I’m far from an expert on the matter myself. What I can do is offer two lines of though I’ve been considering myself.
1.) “Well bombing.” It’s a term you’ll see dropped around on the forums every so often. Basically the idea is to trap your enemies inside the radius of Well of Suffering. The other wells are helpful too, but Well of Suffering deals huge amounts of damage if you can keep an enemy in there. Mainhand dagger is the best way to do this, since the number 3 skill is an immobilize. Other options include weakness (helps keep a target from rolling out of the well), cripple (slows them, causing them to possibly suffer an extra tick of damage), chill (see cripple), and fear (fear an enemy into a wall/rock and drop the well on them). Your traits here will go 30 into Spite for Close to Death. 20 points have to go into Blood for Ritual Mastery. After that it depends on what other utilities you are bringing. One interesting option that I haven’t tried yet might be to put the remaining 20 into Curses. You could probably stack up a decent number of bleeds from the dagger auto attack. I haven’t seen many people do that though. The standard gear choice would be the Soldier’s Amulet. If you do put points in Curses then you will want the one that gives both Power and Condition Damage, but you’ll be a bit more squishy due to a lack of toughness.
2.) Axe/DS build. This one crops up on the boards from time to time, but is quite uncommon. That’s mostly because the Axe can be a problematic weapon in PvP. If you can learn to regularly hit your target with Axe #2 then this build might actually work pretty well. If you want to try it out I’d suggest going 30/0/0/10/30. You’d want to have Foot in the Grave in Soul Reaping for stability OR Near to Death for faster DS. Whichever suits you better. Soul Marks would be a huge help to gaining LF, and since Life Blast would actually be a great ranged option in this build I would take Unyielding Blast. For Spite, I’d take Spiteful Spirit, Spiteful Marks, and Axe Training. Blood Magic would give you Mark of Evasion for an extra mark. For gear you could go the tanky route and pick Soldier’s Amulet. You could also pick up Precision from the Knight’s Amulet. It would give you a big boost to damage at the cost of losing survivability. I see retaliation being a big part of this type of build, just because it would be a great source of added damage.
I haven’t tested, but I’m going to guess no. I assume that Axe attack skills are coded so that they check for the Axe Training trait and behave accordingly. If that is the case then the bonus would not carry to DS.
Close to Death is certainly very good, but it depends on getting your opponent down to 50% HP without having a damage bonus. If the main source of your burst is going to be Axe #2 then Axe Training is better. Staff will probably be your other weapon set anyway, and that has Spiteful Marks as a Master level trait. Close to Death is the clear winner if you are using a dagger though.
Axe Training + Sigil of Force is the same thing as Close to Death. Except all the time. And with faster cooldowns.
Because sometimes CC and finishers is more useful than a well. I’ve had great success running Bone Minions and Bone Fiend with Well of Suffering and Well of Blood for example. And have you ever used the Fetid Consumption trait? It’s incredible. I barely ever have conditions on me.
What would I add? Well of Corruption? Why? I have boon stripping with my Focus and don’t have any condition damage. Well of Power? I have a condition cleanse on my Staff and never have to use it anyway because of Fetid Consumption. Bone Minions provide AoE damage and AoE retaliation. Bone Fiend provides an extra immobilize. I don’t see how those are less useful than the two wells I’m not using. Especially since I’m running D/F and need the AoE damage and the extra immob, but not boon stripping or condition removal.
I haven’t heard of the problem with Signet of the Locust either, but I prefer Spectral Walk. It’s actually faster for the speed bonus and is nearly permanent with the cd reduction trait.
I assume this is for PvE? Vampiric traits don’t really work that well in PvP. For a PvE build I’d say you’re putting too much into Soul Reaping. You could try something more like this:
http://tinyurl.com/VampNecroExample
I haven’t really done much with vampiric stuff, but I’d imagine that build would work pretty well. You’ll want Power, Precision, and Toughness in your gear. Toughness is stronger than Vitality for you because reducing the incoming damage increases the relative effectiveness of your healing. I don’t think you’ll get to a point that your precision is “good enough.” I say that because the Sigil of Blood only has a 30% chance to trigger on a crit. Your precision needs to be pretty high to maximize the effect of Sigil of Blood.
Try the build out and tailor it to your personal tastes. Again, I can’t emphasize strongly enough that I don’t suggest using this as a PvP build if that’s your plan. I can’t speak for WvW, but in sPvP this sort of build will get crushed all the time.
I agree that the minion minors need to be changed, but I don’t want to see them totally removed. The problem is there is nowhere to put them in the major traits. Unless they get merged with Minion Master and Flesh of the Master. But ANet may not be open to doing that.
TBH I think minions have a lot more value than people are giving them atm. It’s not really about whether or not taking all minions is good. It isn’t. Mostly because their active skills don’t go together. At all. It’s about which minions can be helpful to the main function of your build. Bone Fiend goes great with wells because it’s another way to CC your foe in them, plus it has projectile finishers to shoot through your combo fields. Bone Minions provide blast finishers and decent AoE. Flesh Wurm provides a teleport and stun break, as well as no small amount of damage. Flesh Golem is great for tanking trash mobs, and deals pretty fantastic damage. Golem also goes great with wells because of charge, yet another CC for your enemies. Only Shadow Fiend seems to be useless. It provides a tiny AoE blind that takes quite some time to fire off. All of this depends on the AI, but I haven’t had any issues with it lately. As long as you initiate the fight with a direct attack (usually Focus #4 for me) the minions happily join in.
1.) Yes, from a lore perspective GW1 established that Necromancers do not raise the actual bodies of the dead. We create our minions using the dead as raw material, more or less.
2.) That’s awful game design. Players would be spamming ground targeted skills uselessly all over your minions instead of the actual enemies.
I do miss the GW1 models though, which were much more impressive than rats with skulls.
I’ve found the minion AI to be better lately than it was originally. Perhaps it’s because I have less play time now, or maybe because my play style has changed.
I’ve actually had pretty great results in hot joins with this build for PvP:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;04cZ-F0-IFJ0v3VI-K0;9;4J-JT-48;229-57A;15Rk0-N;0OZG5OZG56gR
The minions seem to be performing well. Mostly they focus on my target. The Bone Fiend has had no issues. The Bone Minions will sometimes not be where I expect but it is easily attributable in those cases to cripple or chill. It never looks like bad pathing. The Flesh Golem has the lowest success rate. 90% of the time he works fine. But that other 10% he is running around hitting whatever enemy player is closest. On the plus side I haven’t had him stand around being useless since I adopted this build.
I do think many of the issues are tied to the Staff. Since I’m primarily using D/F now, I am always initiating combat against a single static target. With Staff you run into two problems. Firstly, you aren’t directly initiating the fight. You have a mark on the ground that later triggers to deal damage. Secondly, you are more often than not hitting multiple targets at the same time. I suspect this might cause the minion AI to either freeze or select a target that is different from your actual target. That is just conjecture though.
I was wondering if anyone has ever tried a build using these weapons. I know Scepter is usually paired with dagger for more condition spread, but what about Focus in a hybrid build? They have the same base range and Focus causes extra conditions to fuel Scepter #3. One of those happens to be Vulnerability, which only causes it to deal even more damage.
My thinking is to do something like 30/30/0/0/10, but I’m curious what traits others would use in a build like this? What utilities do you think would be most useful? My main interests would be PvE/Dungeons/WvW with this build. I’ve noticed that hybrids don’t perform well in sPvP generally.
A very rough prototype I was thinking of would be this:
Please offer any suggestions you can think of!
I’ll try my hand at this.
(Copy and paste link)
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;0_-34J0-I-J0m3ZJkJ0;9;6JJT;413-27-39Aa-F1SZ;0Rk06Rk069cL
Reasoning:
Your main goal as a bunker is to be as hard to kill as possible. So think about what makes something hard to kill. Lots of health and armor is the most basic thing. Necromancers also have DS and Plague. And then there’s boons. Specifically regeneration, protection, and stability. Finally there’s some conditions that help reduce incoming damage, like weakness.
How does this build take advantage of those things? Necromancer has a high base health. This build has 20k. It also has over 3000 armor. The life force pool is increased by 30% through Soul Reaping, making DS better at absorbing damage. Mark of Blood provides a ton of regeneration. Protection comes from traited wells, Spectral Armor, and the automatic Spectral Armor. It also comes from runes and sometimes from Well of Power. Stability mostly comes from Foot in the Grave (SR 30pt major). AoE weakness is created through staff 3+4 and from dagger 5.
Basically your goal is to be as annoying as possible while using your AoEs for area denial. Keep in mind that your marks are both huge and unblockable. Swap weapons regularly to keep the weakness up. It’s really an underrated condition.
IMO the main reason people say Necro can’t be a good bunker is because it requires much more skill than the Guardian and Elementalist. Those two classes have easy access to stability and essentially just stack their boons and go to town. Necro has less stability and is more reliant on cooldowns to be effective in this role. Still, it looks quite good on paper. Keep in mind I threw the build together in about five minutes. With proper practice and testing I’m sure it could be improved.
Have you considered Flesh Wurm? I haven’t played much tpvp but it’s served me well in sPvP. The teleport, once you learn to use it, is great for getting out of a bad spot. You get lifeforce every time you use it. It also has the shortest cd of all our stunbreakers. Even if you don’t take the minion master trait.
Between Spectral Walk and Spectral Armor I’d lean towards Spectral Walk. I think the cd from Spectral Armor is too long for it to be terribly useful. The best answer might be to trait for the auto Spectral Armor and bring Spectral Walk or Flesh Wurm on your bar. Not sure if your build has room to do that though.
From my experiences in WvW it’s more about your position on the battlefield and the numbers game. How many of them vs. how many of you? It’s also about your gear, but you said you have endgame gear. I find it hard to believe you are struggling with endgame gear. There’s a ton of people in WvW that are low level. Your stats should be much higher than most of the players you are encountering. The typical conditions build using marks and epidemic, a wells based build, or the “Juggermancer” build all function quite well for Necro in WvW. Does the “Juggermancer” deal the same burst as a glass cannon thief? Of course not. But it also survives pretty much as well as a typical Guardian without the risk of boon removal.
Necro can currently use either conditions or burst in WvW and do well. The burst starts to trail off in sPvP and tPvP, but can still work for 1v1s as long as you have the right utilities. 2v1s with Lich Form active. Conditions works spectacularly in sPvP and tPvP. I almost never lose a 1v1 with my conditions Necro. The only time I did last night was against a thief that pulled me off a node and killed me before I could stand up. In larger fights the conditions build scores a lot of downs and forces enemies away from nodes. Short condition duration is your fault. My bleeds last forever and get applied fast. The best part is the bleeds are all from short cooldowns and auto-attacks. If they cleanse them I just put them back. DS is even useful because I can kite with it while my bleeds tick down.
Where does the Necro need work?
1.) Minions. While I don’t agree that we are “pet class,” minions are clearly not doing everything they should be right now. A lot of the problem is the AI. Minions are 100% useless when they aren’t attacking anything. There’s also the issue that most of them aren’t valuable even if they work. Blood Fiend, Bone Fiend, and Shadow Fiend never enter my skill bar. Then there’s player expectations. I don’t think we will ever see a “minion master” build be very good. I think minions were designed to be used 1 or 2 at a time to help out other builds, not to be the focus of a build themselves. I hope I’m wrong about that, but I doubt that I am. Even with all these issues, Flesh Worm and Flesh Golem are in my sPvP build and I’ve found them to be worth keeping.
2.) Axe. The damage is insanely low. With 15 stacks of vulnerability and 25 stacks of bloodlust on a high power build I was only hitting for about 2k. After all the effort to put up that vulnerability. Meanwhile a dagger can hit for close to that all by itself. I don’t see how that makes any sense.
3.) Life Siphons. They need to scale with HP or receive much higher benefit from healing power. One of the two. Because right now they aren’t even worth it. Even against a low damage bunker opponent they won’t keep you alive. I haven’t tried them in PvE though, maybe they work there. Still, in PvP they need work.
Does that put us behind other classes? I really don’t think it does. Pretty much every class is only using 1 or 2 builds currently. Why should we be using more? I think every class needs work.
I like the videos a lot, but a written summary of some kind would be helpful too. Keep up the good work!
I had kind of just assumed bunker necros used deathshroud a lot. Wells though..that hadn’t occurred to me. I’ll have to give that a shot!
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