Guild Wars 2

I’ve been playing since BWE 1, but [like you, I guess] I have been playing a Necromancer since BWE2 – specifically, I have played a Minion MASTER since then. I have logged >2,842 hours as a Necromancer [though I only have 2 of them], with c. 2,371h of that being a Minion MASTER. So it is not a stretch to say few, if any, have played a Minion MASTER more than I have [in GW2].

In addition to the 2 professions that we agreed upon which present problems for minions, and your trap rangers, I’ll add staff Elementalists (who can also obliterate minions in just a few seconds). Thieves & Mesmers don’t mess with the minions, usually, because they can go into stealth, & so, losing the minions, get to the Necro directly. My problem with D/D Eles is they run – and I usually cannot keep up (especially if they are good about cleansing). Generally, I do not set up like a bunker on a point (when you seem to be implying about your placement comment); instead I roam & that is where I lose the minions (they do not stay as close as they should or even as close as they used to); some maps being much worse than others.

I agree minions were much better at launch, though a bit too aggressive; sadly I could not really test them in WvW (as my server had queues of several hours), but they worked well enough in PvP – and they broke combat more quickly.

Bhawb.7408:

Minions are better in sPvP than they are in PvE.

Here I strongly disagree. In PvE Minions any weapon can trigger minions to attack, even at a range of 1,680, far beyond the reach of any necro weapon – and this trigger will cause the minions to attack about 80% of the time. This triggering mechanism does work nearly as well in PvP, and certainly not at such a great distance. Also, in PvP minions are more likely to not attack at all.

Based on the tests that I ran recently in WvW & PVP [against other players] (which would seem to corroborate my previous experiences), minions fail to attack [within the first 3s–5s of a fight] about 30%–40% of the time. Terrain can cause them to attack far less frequently (if they refuse to round a corner, for instance), and using only the #1 attack to trigger them to attack seems to decrease the percentage as well. Additionally, they do not attack at all somewhere between 5% & 10% of the time. Oddly, minions seem to have a more difficult time making the initial attack against NPCs (such as enemy sentries) than they do against beasts.

For you to say that “Minions are better in sPvP than they are in PvE,” makes me wonder if you are being a bunker, because the less you move around, the fewer problems you have. But, being a roamer, I can say with certainty that minions get lost far too easily, especially on some PvP maps.

You don’t understand the issues with terrain very well. The main problems are 1) they do not keep up, and 2) they pick their own target/do not always fight who/what you want them to (which often contributes to point #1). And being a “MASTER” should INCLUDE COMMANDING them to ATTACK when you want them to Attack, & to STOP Attacking/Come to me when you do not want them to attack – that is simple logic: the ability to “control” is in the definition of “master.” Thus, you literally cannot really be the master of something brainless that has crap for AI. That has been my point all along – AI needs to be better/we need to have more “control” over what they do.

Bhawb.7408:

If the minion’s active misses you have no one to blame but yourself. You can even complain about terrain issues, but when you pick that skill you also take responsibility for how it works as is in game right now.

Those an asinine statements and totally ignore the issues with terrain. Perhaps you do not understand the point that I was making. If you want to accept the blame for every glitch in the terrain, go right ahead. But I have LITERALLY seen the golem miss because it got stuck on an uneven cobblestone, yes uneven cobblestone, and on the tiniest of rocks; I have seen it miss because it was in a small, nearly imperceptible divot in the terrain. It has also missed because it could not “charge” straight up a path or stairs that it was just walking up – which is completely illogical. Moreover, your implication that before making a minion attack you should do a full 360° degree view to determine the minion’s perspective, to see if it can make the attack cleanly, makes absolutely no sense & is a waste of valuable time. Even Phantasms walk around to get a better attacking position, even going around corners to do so. Minions, however, are not even that smart.

Bhawb.7408:

They had great AI a few times, the most recent a few months ago.

Again, opinion. Your great is my tolerable. I would bet many more players would side with me in saying they have never been great, but rather tolerable to good at best.

Bhawb.7408:

Minions have base 10k or 13k HP in sPvP untraited (roughly), and about 2100-2600 armor, again fairly standard. The average minion is about as durable as the average player, although obviously a player doesn’t just stand around eating damage.
In PvE, minions have base 17k or base 22k (again roughly), same armor. This makes them on average more durable than any player except those heavily invested in defensive stats (they have more HP and armor than the base a warrior gets). With added HP, they are significantly more durable than nearly any player build (again, assuming that player has no active defense).

Where are you getting your minion stats? Just curious.

Bhawb.7408:

Now obviously in practice players are far more durable, because they will actively avoid damage and have ways to actively or even passively block it, while minions do not on their own. However, players cannot just be summoned 6 at a time on a 30s CD either. So no, frankly minions are quite durable, even untraited, as long as you aren’t trying to fight a boss that has an AoE one shot mechanic or something similar.”

I think the main difference here is that you seem to do more PvE than PvP & WvW. I do more WvW & PvP than PvE. Playing against real players (not AI) makes minions more fragile than you are acknowledging [some pro players are like mini-bosses] – notably when minions go against players who do massive AOE damage &/or Condition Damage. For instance, an Elementalist or Warrior or Engineer can obliterate all minions near them (or in a close area) in just a few seconds, and then, as you say, you are minionless for some 30s – having essentially wasted all of your skills.

Bhawb.7408:

Again the basis is not entirely true. They have had amazing AI at points, and bad at others. Its a cycle. You get used to it, it sucks, but it happens.

No, it IS Entirely True, largely because “great” is subjective. But since you insist on saying minion AI has been great, I would like more information to help me understand your point.
- When was the last time minions had “great” or had “amazing AI?”
- Will you say that minions have been “great” or had “amazing AI” regardless of the main weapon you used?
- Will you say that minions are as Equally effective in PvP or WvW as they are in PvE?
- Have you ever FORCED a minion to attack a target & then had that minion ignore the target thereafter?

You also conveniently ignored their issues with terrain & the fact that they pick their own targets – have you tried running with minions on any of the newest PVP maps?

Bhawb.7408:

You get 20% reduction on the summon skill, otherwise it’d be pretty insanely strong.

Um, no.

The recharge rates on some minions are about as long as the recharge on their secondary attack, so, if you use the secondary asap, and then the minion dies just before the secondary recharges, you now have to also wait for the minion to recharge again. Thus, in essence, you have just doubled (or more) the time it takes for you to use that secondary; e.g., minion secondaries can easily have a 40s cd for SF, 70s cd for BF, 80s for FG.

By far the stupidest recharge is on the Bone Fiend which itself has a 30s recharge (24s traited), but its secondary (Rigor Mortis) has a whopping 50s recharge, longer even than the Flesh Golem’s (which is an elite). So, IMAGINE you use Rigor Mortis as soon as you summon BF, and it is about to recharge when BF dies – that means you could have to wait 78s to 72s in between uses of Rigor Mortis. Would that make Rigor the longest non–elite recharge in the entire game?

The recharge rate is not even the worst thing about the minion secondary attack – the worst thing is how it frequently it misses players. I mentioned the problem with Golem’s Charge above, but it & the other attacks FREQUENTLY fall short, because we have No Way of knowing if the MINION is in range. If I am within attack range, shouldn’t the Golem Charge & SF Haunt be as well? They both have ranges of 1,200. But, no. Minions tend to lollygag, so they are not as close as you are – this is especially true if you are giving chase. I don’t even want to think about the times that I have been in range & yet seen my Golem’s Charge pull up just short of the target (not to mention the fact that it frequently fails because of terrain). But Bone Fiend is the worst culprit because it is Immobilized just before making the attack – making it totally useless when giving chase, which is ironically the time when you need it most.

Bhawb.7408:

Its called using a skill.

What?

Bhawb.7408:

When their AI is functional, … once they eventually fix the AI again.

Again? How long have we been complaining about minion AI? When was the last time that you thought they had “great” AI (with any/all weapons)?

Overkillengine.6084:

Well, having the bleeds still on you and thus keeping you in combat could be annoying .

Yeah, keeping me in combat is the most annoying part about it (when it happens).

Are Necros are the only profession who damage themselves with their own attack?

Without “Flesh of the Master” Minions are incredibly Fragile – even with it, Bone Minions are still pretty fragile. And all minions are very susceptible to AOE & Condition Damage – “Putrid Mark” used to be very helpful in ridding minions of conditions, until Putrid Mark was nerfed into USELESSNESS recently. So now afflicted minions just die quickly. Minions die so easily that I thought of suggesting that Death Nova be an automatic trait – at least make people pay for destroying the beasts. But, could you imagine the outcry if that happened?

Minions are ridiculously Weak – and they keep getting nerfed. Did you know “Training of the Master” used to give minions a 50% bonus to Minion Damage – but that has been Reduced by 50%!! “Protection of the Horde” used to give +50 Toughness – that has been reduced to +20 Toughness = a 40% reduction! “Haunt” is shown to be an instantaneous attack – but it isn’t; the Shadow Fiend seems to strain as if taking a dump for a second before it attacks. The Flesh Golem “Charge” is unbelievably unreliable – as it can get blocked by a pebble, uneven cobblestone, or a tree or the sheer corner or a building.

And their AI has never been great (esp. in PvP & WvW) – good would even be a stretch – but it was tolerable, until about a year ago. It is nearly intolerable now. Minions are UNBELIEVABLY Stupid – and they seem to have gotten stupider over time. They have serious issues in WvW, as they are easily lost & confused. Because of the layout in The Edge of the Mist, minions have great difficulty navigating. But they have the worst problems on some PvP maps, where they can be all but useless. The layouts with narrow bridges, doorways, ramps, stairs all bedevil the poor beasts, so that half of the pvp maps can be nightmares; countless times I have moved around a map & encountered a foe while my minions are lost & useless – leading to unbalanced, painful skirmish. The fact that minions are slow & lollygag makes navigating all the more impossible. Unbelievably, only One Weapon seems to get them to attack with any reliability – that being the dagger (no other weapon is an effective trigger) – having just one weapon to trigger them to attack is a serious & grievous flaw in design. Almost as bad as them not attacking who you want them to attack is the fact that they too frequently pick their own targets & attack them (thus putting them and YOU into combat, weakening them & weaken you because you do not have them).

One of the craziest things about minions is if you Reduce the Cooldown on your Minions, Minion Master still does not reduce the cooldowns on their secondary attacks. I think Necromancers are the only profession that is not given a reduced recharge on something that should have a reduced recharge time.

I still contend that we NEED an F–Button assigned to FORCE minions to attack/call target FOR THE MINIONS. They will probably never be smart enough to navigate some maps, but AT LEAST have them ATTACK who/what & when we want. The frustration felt at, after forcing a minion to attack [with Charge, Haunt, etc.] & having that attack succeed, then having that minion afterwards IGNORE the target that it just attacked is inexpressible & exhausting. Yet this has happened over and over and over and over again for over a year. If that is not a sign of broken AI, I don’t know what it.

Don’t forget about the fact that the Golem “Charge” attack is Ground-bound & too easily blocked (even by pebbles or uneven cobblestones, not to mention the occasional tree or corner of a building) – which makes it a very unreliable interrupt.

Will the Glory Vendors remain after April 15th, or will they be deleted?

Yamedo.2561:

Lol.. why can’t our necros be like that? D=

Because the NPC is a real Necromancer.

Players are Nerfromancers.

Terrahero.9358:

But the original claim that Necro’s are the only ones who lack easy access to stability has been properly debunked.

WRONG!!!

1)

Thieves have [Dagger Storm] & can exit out of it while keeping [at least] EIGHT Seconds of Stability & doing whatever you like with [stability].

That 8+s of Stability is Real, Practical Stability. And, as you say, they can steal 3s from Mesmers.

2)

Engineers have an Elixir

That stability lasts at least 4s.

but they need to throw the elixir as a ground targeted ability with a cast time.

O_o
Did you actually say that the fact that you have to use a professional mechanic skill for the skill to work means that you should not count that as a skill?

3)

Rangers have to trait or pop an Elite.

Yes, at that Elite (RaO) gives them 20+s of Real, Practical Stability – during which they can do anything, use any available skill, heal, whatever. I did not know about the traiting option, and would not count it if I did.

Terrahero.9358:

Necro having to trait or pop an elite doesnt put them in an unusual disadvantage compared to all the other professions.

Yes, yes actually it does. Name ONE OTHER Profession that HAS to TRAIT for Stability* to get Real, Practical Stability*! (*Stability that will allow you to use your Heal &/or other Skills & Attacks WHILE KEEPING STABILITY.) You cannot – because ALL OTHER PROFESSIONS GET STABILITY FROM SKILLS/Attacks.

And, again, for the gazillionth time, the 2 Necro Elites do not gives REAL, PRACTICAL STABILITY!!! Look at
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lich_Form
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague
Notice, there is NO Stability Icon with either of those skills.
Why?
Because you do not get Real Stability with either of those skills. You are limited to just a few attacks with those elites and you get NO access to Any Skills (not even #6 Heal). All other professions can still access & use Skills ([Heal] & Weapon Attacks) while keeping stability.

Necromancers are the ONLY Profession without access to Real, Practical Stability.

It seems I broke the quotes feature. So to clarify, they all come from this thread.
Quote #1) Was stated by me previously. [Noble.3647]
All Quotes in #2) & #3) are from Terrahero.9358.

If you want to talk about a MAJOR BUG – Necros are the ONLY profession with a weapon that is all but USELESS against Downed Players – the Staff!! 4/5 of its attacks do NOT work against Downed Players. It has been like that since the dawn of time & Anet seems perfectly content in crippling necros, so I expect it will never be fixed.

Saturn.6591:

^You can dodge Moa easily.

Not if you are out of dodges, immobilized, or fighting several opponents at once (so you miss the animation). So it remains TOTALLY UNFAIR that Moa morph destroys ALL Minions.

Saturn.6591:

You can chose to not use Plague or Lich form if you play a Minionmaster

Obviously, but sadly, once you enable Plague underwater you cannot disable plague (even if you are MM) – so you have to have it. You can try not to use it, but you will inevitably hit it accidentally. Thus the Elite is a total waste for Minion Masters.

Saturn.6591:

And about that very good perma-stun warrior… if he’s very good and you’re very good as well or maybe even extremely good, you can still win.

LOL @ “can” – I know. If you can keep your distance, but they are faster & can close gaps instantly, so I was still asking how to beat them. This was just a pep talk.

Saturn.6591:

If you are a very good Mesmer and your opponent a decent Thief, he will maybe not win but he also won’t lose, because you can’t do much against him with this bug. Thus it’s good that they hotfixed it.

No idea what this is about (what bug?) – this being the Necro forum, I was asking about a Necro beating a very good Mesmer or Thief. Thieves & Mesmers are the most OP professions in the game – because both have tons of invisibility – so I would expect it to be a draw if they were of equal ability.

Saturn.6591:

And I’m all for Necros getting their bugs fixed, just like I’m all for Mesmers getting their countless remaining bugs fixed. However, this one bug WAS indeed very gamebreaking and couldn’t be avoided or worked around at all.

Yeah, and that bug means Anet should have rethought/reworked mesmers rather than let them get away with such a major bug. And it could have been avoided because mesmers do not really need invisibility (since you have clones) – in fact no profession needs invisibility, except Thieves, jet far too many have access to it.

Me going into Plague/Lich-form & destroying minions bother me far less than when a Mesmer Moa-morphs me & destroys my minions. Same BUG just far more annoying.

And, talk about a mesmer bug that will never get fixed (because it benefits them too much), what about the Mesmer remaining Invisible while Weapon-Based/Created Illusions continue to attack! Players should not be able to make Weapon-Based Attacks AND Remain Invisible!

Saturn.6591:

Necros can still win against any build of any class as long as they play better than their opponent.

Got any videos where you beat a Very Good Perma-stun Warrior or a Very Good & Mobile & Stealthy Mesmer or Thief?

Forced means compulsory which is to say required, and NOTHING in this game is Required; it is all desired.

@Savoy.6824 “Well of Power” is a joke – for reasons stated by others here. Namely, you do not have enough time to get off a heal (much less another skill) before the stability runs out.

@Quells.2498 Death Shroud is not Stability.

@Seras.5702 Not backpedaling, just stating facts. No other profession has to TRAIT for Practical Stability. Necros should not have to either.
“It’s on demand with DS” – there you obviously do not understand how DS works. It is not “on demand” – you have to get Life Force First, and that can be very difficult (which is another topic). “Fear an enemy right off the cliff. It’s a great interrupt for this map” – One Second of fear is seldom enough fear to do that.

godz raiden.2631:

I bet you’re one of those necros that gets jumped by thieves and just sits there in your light armor thinking you shouldn’t have to pop your deathshroud just to soak up some backstab damage.

LOL Um, actually, if the thief does backstab as intended, you never see it coming, so you do not even have time to pop DS. But, no, DS is all we have as we have NO BLOCKS, NO EVASION, NO INVULNERABILITY, NO INVISIBILITY, so we have to use DS to stay alive.

@Ayrilana.1396 Looked at your stability page, and saw that it confirmed – I see Every other Profession there gets 4s-10s of practical stability. So I see your Stability, trump it, and raise you http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block & /Invulnerability.

Mochann.5298:

An interrupt is an interrupt.

No, Fear is the ONLY Interrupt that is a condition, so it is the ONLY interrupt that can be ignored/cleanses as such (before it even takes effect). (Diamond Skin et al.)

Mochann.5298:

Be happy you have Fear. Most professions don’t even have it.

LOL Right, ALL OTHER Professions have BETTER Inerrupts, and most professions have MORE interrupts than Necros.

Sounomi.8503:

Mesmers get two bursts of 2s stability through a mantra.

Yeah, that makes 4s almost instantly.

Engineers have no stability outside of elites (which doesn’t fall into your definition of “practical”).

Actually it does. Elites are skills. Skills are practical. You can change them on the fly. You do not have to trait to get their benefits.
Besides “Toss Elixir B” is NOT an Elite, and it gives you FOUR Seconds of Practical Stability. Rumble’s stability seems about as useless as “Well of Power” though.

shawshank.4906:

3s of stability every 7s traited isnt ‘practical’ enough for you?

DS is every 10 seconds, assuming you have the LF to use it. And, AGAIN, it is UNFAIR to force ONE Profession to trait for stability & not force others to do the same.

@Azzer.8137 I am not saying Soul Reaping is bad, I am just saying that Necros should not HAVE to Trait for Practical Stability when no other profession has to do that. Now, if FitG were an Adept (or better yet, at the 5 level) I would not be complaining so much. I could spare 5-10 to get stability, though it would still be unfair, it would not be unreasonable. To require us to get a Grandmaster Trait IS UNREASONABLE.

To all of you talking about better positioning, some of the bridges & isles are very narrow, not to mention many professions have Interrupts that Pull your foe – so that makes it harder to gain a position.

Magische Boek.2530:

Noble.3647:

Necros remain the ONLY profession in the entire game without Practical Stability (with the exception of the one cleanse, lich #5).

so how does thief get practical stability? and dont say lyssa runes because you have that option to. you also have the option to trait for http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Foot_in_the_Grave wich gives you 3 secconds of stability each time you enter DS, combined with boon duration you can have 60% stability uptime.

First, Thieves have INVISIBILITY so they do not really need Stability – as Invisibility is The Most Over-Powered effect in the game – and thieves have more stealth than anyone. Imagine Necros with Stealth. I think Thieves are the Only Profession that should have invisibility – it should be their Professional Mechanic (not the Stealing-bs); and mesmers most certainly should not have stealth as they have clones. That said, I see that you are only referencing my comment. So, Thieves have [Dagger Storm] & can exit out of it while keeping the EIGHT Seconds of Stability & doing whatever you like with it.

Again, you are talking about TRAITING for something that NO OTHER PROFESSION has to Trait for! It is asinine to trait for something that Every Profession gets just with Weapon Attacks/Skill Slots.

I am talking about The CORE of the Professions here, Weapons & Skills, NOT TRAITS which are for builds. Much the way that you do not want me to mention Lyssa Runes which would cramp YOUR Build. If you talk about traiting for a particular thing, then you are arguing that everyone in that profession should trait for that thing if they want it, and when other professions get the same benefits without traiting – it is blatantly unfair & oppressive to the profession that has to trait for it. What makes it worse is the Trait that you reference (FitG) is a GRANDMASTER Trait, so you waste a whole trait line to get it. If Traiting for a Grandmaster Stabilizing Trait were the ONLY way that ALL professions could get stability, then it would not be unfair or oppressive. But, as you describe, it is.

@ Zombie
Why people keep suggesting to trait for Fear – Thieves do not trait for their 3s of Fear – Warrior do not trait for their 3s Fear – in BOTH cases, the THREE SECOND Fear is Part of their Skill/Professional Mechanic. It is Asinine for Necros to HAVE to trait for better fear – esp. when fear is the MAIN Interrupt that Necros have.

And I was pointing out that almost all Necro interrupts are fears, bot MOST of them are for ONE Second.

You still ignore the fact that Fear is a Condition, and it is the ONLY Interrupt that is a Condition.

You know Necros are THE Punked Profession. It is like the Devs sit in a room & think of new, more annoying ways to punk us.

- The UI Delay
– All the other Bugs
– Condition-based Interrupts that can be easily ignored
– Stupid, and I mean STUPID Minions (that often do not even attack)
– Only Profession without Practical Stability
– Only Profession without Blocks/Evasion/Invulnerability
– Only Profession without access to Vigor (as via traits)
– Only Profession without a #1 Arcing/AoE Attack
– Only Profession with a Weapon [Staff] that is pretty Useless against Downed Opponents

First Skyhammer & now The Edge of the Mists – in both of those maps, you really Need Practical Stability to do well. Yet Anet (in its finite wisdom) has kept Necromancers from having Practical Stability. [Practical Stability being stability where you can also Heal, use Condition Removal, use Skills, etc.] Necros remain the ONLY profession in the entire game without Practical Stability (with the exception of the one cleanse, lich #5).
So, thank you Anet for making a whole map just to screw with Necros.

And, while I am on the Need for Stability – WHY are Necros the ONLY Profession with almost all of its interrupts being Fear??
Fear is not bad, Except for the fact that it is a CONDITION – the ONLY Interrupt that is a condition! And thus Fear is the ONLY interrupt that can be Cleansed/Gotten Rid of INSTANTLY! In fact, Fear is the ONLY Interrupt that can be ignored completely (not counting blocks) by some professions (e.g. Warrior with Shrug It Off [Tactics VII], Elementalist Diamond Skin, etc.).

What makes this fear problem worse is that NO Professions have a WORSE FEAR Duration than Necromancers!!! Most Necro Fears last ONE Second! Warriors can get a 3 Second Fear! And Thieves too!! Which is Ironic considering that the Thief fear is “stolen” from Necros – so WHY is the “stolen” skill 3x more powerful than the original?

Summary:

1) Necromancers are the Only Profession without Practical Stability.
2) Necromancers are the Only Profession forced to rely Heavily upon an easily cleansable/ignorable Condition [Fear] to Interrupt.
3) Necromancers have the worst fear of any profession.
4) Skyhammer & The Edge of the Mists are HELLISH locations for Necros as a result of these stated oppressions.

The nerfs are killing Necros as a profession, and it will not take much to break it entirely. [Condition Necros have already received some substantial & very limiting nerfs. Minion Masters have also received some major nerfs, not to mention the fact that minions are still Unbelievably STUPID.] At that point all interest in the game will be lost. Getting pretty sick of these mediocre updates as it is. Balancing remains a MAJOR Problem in PvP & WvW – ideally, blow-outs should not exist.

It is obvious that the devs love invisibility & the professions that use it. Stealtht is the most over-powered feature in the game (in what it does & often in how it does it). Necros, being forced to rely upon more ranged attacks than any other profession & with incredibly limited mobility, remain at a distinct disadvantage.

They won’t even give Necros good mobility, blocks, practical stability, or good non-condition interrupts. Yet somehow Nercos are supposed to be the “attrition class?” It would be nice if they’d stop and really think about how changes affect the game (how to keep professions balanced) before they change things.

Though I’d love to see the Staff #4 Attack (which was great before its horrible nerf but is now sub-par) & #5 Attack (which is arguably the weakest #5 Staff attack [if not weapon attack] in the game) get fixed so that they are greatly improved.
PLEASE Make it so that ALL the Marks work on Downed Players!!!! I mean, really, are we the Only Profession that has 4 of 5 attacks be USELESS on Downed players??

We REALLY NEED A Close-Range AOE Weapon. Every other profession has that, all but Necros. So, I’d have to be in the Fix the Axe crowd. Make the #1 Attack be an Close-Range AoE attack.

What is the difference between a clown and a Necro?
..
..
Clowns are supposed to laugh at themselves. Necros have to or cry/break computer.

The impression I got was that he was likely roaming solo. He made no mention of a group or zerg. Which is why I said avoid zergs. I roam solo, and zergs are deadly.

But, yeah, if you are in a zerg, you an be safe (esp. with the staff) – more is you stay toward the back of the middle than the far rear. Because if you are in the rear and not watching your kitten , you can get ganked from behind.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Bhawb.7408:

Grenth is only a human god. Someone better than me at lore can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure only humans worship (at least widely) Grenth.

Playing an Asura I’d still convert to Scarletism if she fixes the [profession].

Hear, hear! Acolytes of Scarlet unite under this one cause!

Stand The Wall.6987:

Getting hit by condis in ds or plague doesnt mean you have to sit there and take the damage. Do the best you can then pop out to cleanse yourself.

Yeah, you can pop out & hit Consume Conditions & pray that no one in the zerg interrupts you during that 1.25s Obviously telegraphed activation time. And hope that you have enough life/time to withstand the onslaught in the meanwhile.

Got a video of that?

Yeah, but I fear that more nerfs are coming.

Soon we will be so nerfed that Anet will have to change the name of our profession to the Nerfromancer. We certainly have to romance those nerfs, or just give up on the profession.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Patch Notes

Necromancer

• The tooltip for Death Shroud has been corrected to reflect its true functionality. It now reads:
  Assume a spectral form and gain new skills, turning your life force into health. Entering this form removes other spectral effects. Lose 1,000 health when Life Force decreases to 15%.

Thanks, that would fit, but I could not find those notes, and the tooltip has yet to be corrected.

In Death Shroud or Plague, if you get hit by Immobilize & stacks of Conditions, you die – because you have no way to cleanse conditions or heal. So avoid zergs at all costs; they will likely catch you (since we lack good means of escape) &, using the above, kill you.

Having no blocks, no practical stability, and no good means of escape is a major pain.

What do you call a perma-stun hammer Warrior who fights a Necro?
..
..
A Necromasher.

Your biggest problem will be mobility – as the only profession without a forward-moving leap/teleport/etc. [and with no invisibility] you can’t really escape well. So you may want to get in a party with someone who has an AoE speed boost.

As GrandmaFunk said, water is your friend – there you can have Deadly Feast which lets you dart forward (or toward your foe, so be careful). I REALLY miss the lakes that occupied where the ruins are now in the BLs.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

This is a HUGE issue and one that is in need of being fixed. I did have a topic about it, it seems to have gotten lost somewhere.

Agreed. I reported it several months ago, In Game WITH a Screenshot of the missing skills. Though it seems to have improved considerably since then, it still happens and is a major annoyance.

Maybe Anet thought they fixed it. Since it does not happen as often/predictably, it might be nearly impossible to send in an in-game report with a screenshot now. :/

Thanks Nay of the Ether, and did you happen to notice how much your health dropped by? The second time I know mine dropped by over 1000 points.

borrok.9267:

DS and it is the most over powered function in the game.

No, that would be Invisibility.

Stx.4857:

DS is the most powerful class skill in the game

No, again, that is INVISIBILITY. Though Illusions would be a not too distant second.

Stx.4857:

can you imagine how OP it would be if you didn’t lose health for the duration?

Yeah, have been living (not imagining) it since Beta.

If Anet is going to screw up DS entirely, then they really need to scrap the Necromancer Profession entirely and start all over – stop trying to cling to concepts created in GW1 that no longer apply and stop nerfing the Necro stuff that works & keeping the stuff that does not (Gluttony anyone, among many more).

Necros also only have one [short-ranged] melee attack option. Necros are the only profession that is thusly limited.

Plexxing.2978:

Or you can just place Moa on your skill bar. Almost guaranteed win then.

^ This ^

The OP Moa Morph wipes ALL Minions, and leaves the MM a kittened bird.

Andele.1306:

b) HP removal and reflects/ally damage/other random technically non unit damage tends to plain hit hp no matter what effects or buffs you got and last but not least plain lag sometimes makes it seem that you got LF left but you dont.

Do you have any examples?

victornajduch.4859:

Do you maybe have conditions on you when you enter death shroud?

No, I did not. Though, I have gone into DS after getting conditions (when low on life) & not died, because the conditions eat up LF & not health.

victornajduch.4859:

According to the wiki, you’re not supposed to take health damage in DS -

EXACTLY! And that is why I am confused. It is more disturbing since others are experiencing the problem as well.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Thanks for the input guys..

Also the same story about missing my utilities when leaving DS is becoming more and more of a bother.

So you have not been able to see your Skills either (after leaving DS)?

Since you have Well traits, why not add another well?
Power for Condition Removal, Darkness to Annoy, or Power for the shortest cooldown. (Esp. if you want the Minions for the finish.)
For the elite … maybe plague or the golem (to annoy).

As for traits Soul Reaping is always helpful, but with your focus, why not
Spite II & X?

Didn’t say it was a nerf, but I think it may be a glitch. I’d like to know the cause, and the fact that Emapudapus.1307 experienced it as well means I was not hallucinating.

I have only seen it happen twice, but wondered if there was some unknown cause.

2 Warriors and a Necro walk into a bar.
1st Warrior says, “If we show you something entertaining, will you give us free drinks?”
“Sure,” says the bartender. “But it has to really be entertaining.”
The warriors get on each side of the necro.
1st warrior Kicks the necro to the other warrior who hits him with Backbreaker then Hundred Blades and Kicks him to the 2nd warrior who does the same but Stomps the necro back (instead of Kicking). 1st warrior then Rampages, Smashing the necro a few times before interrupting the necro’s heal by Kicking him to the 2nd warrior who also Rampages and does the same. The necro gets downed, never having gotten any of his staff skills to activate, and only having 9% of Life Force being unable to enter Death Shroud.
The bartender frowns.
The downed Necro says, “It’s ok, I am used to it.”
The bartender smiles knowingly.
The warriors swap Staggering Blows, ping-ponging the near-dead necro before they stop the beating and allow the necro to rally.
The bartender smiles and shakes his head.
2nd Warrior smiles and walks up to the bar, “We’ll take those free drinks now.”
Bartender laughs loudly, and says, “Um, no. I said you had to entertain me.”
“But you smiled,” says 1st Warrior.
Bartender says, “Yeah, I smiled because you took mercy on the poor guy and did not finish him off – that was new. Otherwise it was the same old same old; I keep hoping to see something novel – especially when there is a Necro involved – but I never do. I have been seeing that same no stability game since August 28, 2012. You should buy me a drink for wasting my time.”

What is Death Shroud when you get hit by Immobilize and stacks of conditions?
..
..
A Death TRAP.

What did the Flesh Golem say to the Necro who told it to charge?

“I tried, but I stubbed my toe. Big owwie made me no go.”

Has anyone else noticed that you were losing health WHILE in Death Shroud?

I noticed this disturbing event first in WvW the other day, but thought I was imagining thing.

Then today in PvP I was looking at my health WHILE I prepared to lose DS (it was dropping fairly rapidly) when I saw my health bar suddenly drop by over 1,000 points?!! [At the time I still had at least 1/4 of my LF Meter.] A couple of seconds later DS was depleted & with only 200 HP left I was downed nearly instantly.

If this is the case – either it needs to be fixed, or we need a new Profession Mechanic.

Anet: After considering our recent nerfs to the Necromancer abilities to Transfer Conditions & Corrupt Boons, and how many of you have made the cogent argument that those nerfs have rendered those Transfer Skills all but useless & the Corruptions impotent, we have decided that you are correct. We will be removing all of those transfer & corruption skills in the next update. Yes, we know that those were arguably the most unique skills that Necros had – what really separated you from other professions – and that transfers were HALF of the ways necros had to get rid of conditions, but … in their current state there is no reason to keep them. Sorry for teasing you for so long. XD

P.S. We recently realized that the Vital Persistence change was a mistake, expect that to be nerfed back to 20% in the next update.

P.P.S. Without the ability to get rid of/transfer conditions effectively, and with no good way to accumulate Life Force or to maintain it, we expect all of you to choose a new professions soon. Enjoy (until the next nerfing).

-laughs maniacally-

Isn’t the biggest problem with making an “Attrition Class” in GW2 the fact that EVERY profession can heal, some healing incredibly well? I mean, how can you wear something down that is continually building itself up?

This is complicated further in that Necros are meant to rely upon conditions, but Every Profession has access to condition removal, most passively. And our own ability to transfer or convert conditions continually gets nerfed.

1) Give minions a little more brains so that they can sit on their kitten and laugh at us while they do nothing. (The only real difference would be the laughter.) [They would need a lot more to be truly helpful.]

2) Make it harder for us to accumulate Life Force. Get rid of the Live Force from the 1 or 2 attacks (out of 5) that give it – they mostly only give about 3% anyway. Everyone knows Death Shroud is OP, because we have no way to Heal & no way to Cleanse Conditions and we only get stability with a Grandmaster Trait. So make it impossibly to gain the LF to use it.

3) Do away with all of our stability, it is not practical stability anyway – since we cannot heal or cleanse conditions while we have it (except for that one Lich way to cleanse) – we are the only profession without this option anyway, so why pretend.

4) Since we are the only profession without an ability to block, why not taunt us further by putting a big red “REJECTED!” stamp across the screen every time we get blocked. Just to rub it in more. Have the stamp last for 3s – just long enough to block our view.

5) Being the only profession without a way to quickly cross the map, from point A to B (no leap, shadowstep, directional teleport, etc.), why not apply us with a constant cripple.

6) Since we have fewer reliable interrupts than any other profession, and all but one of our interrupts are with the condition fear (that can be easily/automatically removed), why not have fear rebound off of our target & fear us every time we use it. That would make playing a Necro just a little more frustrating than it already is.

7) Reduce the size of Marks AGAIN, since you seem intent on nerfing them into oblivion, just make them 120 again (or less). And, since they only hit the first person to activate them, go on and get rid of that short-range AoE that they have, so that they can no longer rarely hit anyone outside of the mark.

8) Increase the activation time on Necrotic Grasp – it only activates about once a second now, so increase that to 3s. And since it says it can hit up to 3 foes though almost never does, go on & reduce that to one, just for fun.

9) Since we have arguably the worst traits of any profession, why not make them all bad. You keep nerfing them anyway. Give us more traits like Gluttony – I mean a 10% increase on 3% Life Force is just way too much (at 0.3%). Reduce Protection of the Horde AGAIN since it was +50, now is +20, go on and cut it by another 60% – make it +8. And go on and cut Training of the Master by 40% AGAIN, take it from 30% down to 18%.
Give us more Skill options like Vampiric Precision, which give the same kind of weak benefits of an already existing minor trait – in this case Vampiric, the main difference being it requires you to crit to activate it. And, while you are at it, reduce the effectiveness of Bloodthirst by 60% AGAIN – down to 8%, because we all know that 50% was completely unreasonable and the current 20% increase on 31 siphoned health is just way too much.

10) Make it so that Marks & our other AoE attacks do not hit Invisible Targets. I mean none of our ranged attacks can hit them anyway so why should AoE attacks be any different – placement is all guesswork as it is. And we do not have the close-range AoE melee attacks to get lucky with, so just screw us entirely.

9) Not saying that it would not be, only that it is a fact; but since we are so deprived on the other points, I am willing to negotiate. And, as I said, Stealth/Invisibility is already “flat–out OP” since causes loss of target & has such a brief cooldown. So spread the OP around. That would be fair – if every profession had some OP qualities; I mean several of them have OP qualities now, why not give everyone some?
10) OH, but I am WvWing & PvPing, so Minions are ridiculously bad. But, yeah, in 1/3 of the game, they are not too bad – though they are pretty horrible in some of the fractals too – the ones with the platforms/mazes; minions hate those.

Let me settle this for good:

Generally, when I talk about Professional Skills/Abilities/Professional Mecanics/etc., I am talking about UNTRAITED Weapon &/or Utility (&/or Elite) Skills.

So, PLEASE stop pulling traits out of thin air as if everyone should have all the traits that you mentions JUST to get the basic requirements that Every Other Profession Gets WITHOUT having to Trait for them.

======

Oh, I guess that you forgot that it was YOU who brought up that thieves not having decent stability. I think we both agree they don’t really need it … they have Stealth & Shadowstepping and are pretty OP if they are good using those 2 Effects. Seems we are both answering each other rhetorical (or sarcastic) questions.
You are still not understanding what I am saying. You said Necros could pop in & out of DS to get Practical Stability (ONLY IF TRAITED); I said Thieves can pop in & out of DS to do the same & get MORE Stability out of it (WITHOUT BEING TRAITED). The popping in & out was your idea. I do not think Necros (or Thieves) should have to do that. But, we both agree – Thieves do not need Stability like Necros do. And, while Thief DS is Guaranteed every 90s; Necros are NOT Guaranteed DS, we have to earn it in combat at an exceedingly slow rate. Thus, Thief Stability is better – it is Practical Stability, it is Untraited, it Lasts Longer, and it is Guaranteed. Necro stability is none of that (except possibly Practical, but ONLY if traited to DS & you pop in & out; which is still asinine).
I see you keep going back to Plague – while ignoring the concept of PRACTICAL Stability; Plague does NOT allow you to Use Skills (Destroys All Minions) & does NOT allow you to HEAL. So, no, the elite is not wasted so much as the STABILITY is WASTED.
“you probably won’t die any time soon as Plague” – well this proves that you don’t WvW (& likely don’t PvP) much. Plague (without Heal or Cleanse) is a bit like Death Shroud … meaning a Death Trap, but not as much of one as Lich (due to the Easy Target factor).

Yeah, I know, I have tried Soul Reaping (with some of the skills that you mentioned, and I clung to Soul Marks for quite some time, for, as you say, it is the BEST Way to use weapons to accumulate LF), and yes I was very tanky, but not that powerful. I gradually realized that Anet does not really want Necros to be Minion Master (because Minions are so weak & Stupid), and because we do not have great bursting weapons (consider the Mesmer Sword & GS) they do not want us to have power builds either. That leaves Necros with conditions – I don’t like it, but it seems the best option. I may have to try your build in pvp – I’d like to duel you as a test.

I do wish that you would understand the point was, that NO PROFESSION SHOULD have to Rely upon Traits or Runes to access that EVERY Other Profession gets by 1) The Nature of the Profession (as with the Professional Mechanic) or 2) with Weapons/Utility Skills (the PM, and Stability, and Evasion/Invulnerability, Blocks, Stuns, etc). All of your examples rely HEAVILY (if not Entirely) on Traits in an effort to refute what I have said. But I am discussing basikittenraited skills, Weapons/Utility Skills, not traits. Should a Mesmer have to rely upon Traits to use Illusions effectively, or an Ele on Traits Attune to elements properly, or an Engi to access Device/Tool Kits, etc? The answer is they DO NOT, but Necros need to be traited to get decent life force (as in a PvP Duel). Should any profession have to be traited to access Practical Stability? No profession does … except Necros.

No, I actually play a Necro as my main (& I probably have more hours on that one character than you do in the whole game).
1) Again you baffle me with your want to use traits to do something that EVERY OTHER Profession gets WITHOUT TRAITING. You completely fail to comprehend that Forcing Necros to rely upon Traits to get/accomplish what EVERY OTHER Profession gets WITHOUT TRAITING. Get a decent amount of DS in a PvP Duel without traiting for it – that might impress me.
2) What are you doing here? Are you pursuing someone using those? These Teleports are not practical for covering ground quickly, not like Blink, Lightning Flash, etc. where you INSTANTLY go to the Targeted point. Dark Path is slow, does not penetrate, easy to dodge, and can hit the wrong target, and it has pretty weak range AND you NEED a TARGET for it to work. Also, you have to have enough DS to use it. Spectral Walk is just a speedboost you can teleport w/ Recall, but only Backward – which does not help you progress. Flesh Wurm can be used to escape, but only if you have it set up somewhere & it is still alive when you need it. NOT ONE of those is useful in moving quickly across the map. Quotes taken from the Wiki: “A Leap is a skill mechanic that causes the user to rapidly move forward a certain distance.” “Shadowstepping is a mechanic that allows the user to move instantly from one place to another.”
I would like to see you try & use the wurm to cover ground quickly, though. If it did not take 1.5s to activate, it would be useful, but it does so it isn’t. If Dark Path allowed us to target an area & teleport to it instantly, yeah, that would be very good (if you had the DS for it), but it doesn’t.
3) Proven above.
4) a) I did not say anything about daze – maybe you are confusing daze with stun, but they are VERY different and Stun is MUCH better as it disables/immobilizes.
b & c) Those fears lasts 1 Second each. I assume you are spending traits again to justify your argument, because it is unsubstantiated without them & weak with them. So you were giving me a build in which you spent “10 in Spite and 10 in Curses, for … boon duration” & 40 Trait points in SR for FitG Stability, and Soul Marks & Terror & Master of Terror – but … wait, not only can you not put 40 in SR, you can Only get 2 of the 4 Traits that you want (because they are all Master–Level or Higher), so the Build that you have suggested that I use is IMPOSSIBLE. And that is THE problem with being Forced to Rely upon Traits for Effects that every other Profession gets freely with Untraited Basic Skills. I understand now that you were looking in a mirror when you said, “I realize you don’t play a Necromancer and likely have no comprehension of what was written.” Though the Trait suggestions were written by you. Or maybe you heard me whispering it back to you as I read what was written. And all of your "can"s are hilarious. I am talking about given, constant facts based on guaranteed skills – you are saying you “can” do this, if you trait for this and that, or if you use this & they have that.
5) Again, your logic baffles me. I say we don’t have Blocks or Evasion; you implicitly concur and mention blinds which are not the same (and the one you mention only lasts a second, I told you that) are not something that I brought up, but since you brought it up. Blinds block ONE attack. Blocks may block one attack, or may block ALL Attacks for 3 seconds or so. MOST Blocks Recharge in 15 Seconds or Less. Necros get one Blinding Weapon Attack, while the Other 2 Scholar Professions Each get 3 – the 3 Elementalist Blinds recharge in 10s, 10s, & 15s; Mesmers get a 12s Recharge – we get ONE Weapon Blinding with an 18s recharge, nearly double that of the Ele. And did I mention that Mesmers & Eles both have Blocks/Evasion?? Necros do not.
6) Here again, you are talking about something completely different. I do, however, think that is the way DS was designed – in Beta, when it was MUCH easier to get it, it was more tanky. As we both agree – if DS had healing/cleansing properties, yeah, it might just compensate, but as it is – NO.
7) We can’t use runes of vigor – we have boon runes, remember?
8) My point is Necros are forced to rely too heavily upon ranged weapons (we are the ONLY PROFESSION with but a Single Melee weapon & it only attacks one foe with its #1 & #2 attacks), as it painfully obvious when fighting a thief or mesmer who goes invisible & causes you to lose target. If we used Dark Pact or actually had Stuns melee weapons would be more effective. Also, close–range aoe is useful when you have someone (or a pet) rezing someone else, so that you can hit BOTH & not have to target just one.

MethaneGas.8357:

OK, ok.. so after reading what you wrote… I realize you don’t play a Necromancer and likely have no comprehension of what was written.

How about we meet up in a dueling pvp room & you can show me just how to play a Necro – show me just how much more comprehension you have than I do. Just how good are you? Are you Game?