(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
Been away for a bit with some health issues but I can see not a lot has changed in principle.
If we only relied on backward looking experiences we would not get innovative solutions to many problems. Innovative solutions are not necessarily restricted to the experienced gamers.
That said I wonder why they just don’t have a more basic look at this.
To me the problem lies in the scaling of our healing abilities and as Bhawb has rightly said they are concerned not to trigger OP healing by focussing on the wrong scaling parameter.
Our siphoning is used to counter the damage we take, not the entire damage but a proportion of that damage which, with other skills, we use enable us to continue the battle.
The problem I see is NOT the number opponents we have in and of itself, it is the damage they inflict. Scaling off the number of opponents is the WRONG parameter to use if you want siphoning to be consistent and not OP in 1vX scaling situations. I think it would be far more appropriate to scale our siphoning on the damage we receive eg you convert XX% of the attacks against you to health (you could dress it up with fantasy words). This would be far easier to balance and would scale with the the real issue involved…the damage taken.
Just an idea….back to skulking.
Edit spelling
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
Again: if you don’t like the game, don’t play it, if you like the game play it. It is really not that hard.
What a cop out. I can handle the incompetance of the devs but what gets up the nose is the attitude to the players….and it is doubly disappointing when the fanbois also starting overtly showing that attitude to other players who only have the best intentions for the game…not some blind loyalty to a company that treats its paying customer as we have been.
I am glad Bhawb has some value for his minion builds out of his “close” relationship with the devs, but it leaves the rest of the necro builds looking just that much worse and we can not see any improvement incoming…because no-one on the ANet team will have the guts to tell us exactly what is their intention.
Many of us have poured a lot of time and effort into the game and characters and helping others (other than just themselves), Nemesis springs too mind as just one example. To brush that off with “if you don’t like the heat get out of the kitchen” statements is just insulting and inflamatory and that post should be removed.
I have been involved in many situations of “conflict” in my working life and the approach they are taking with the necro by simply stonewalling is a common one. It will NOT improve the situation at all.
The necro community has done everything possible, everything, to get the right information to the devs and for what? We get NOTHING in return except silence and seemingly random, disjoint ,directionless changes and nerfs without explanation. No wonder we are upset…but staying silent and continually appeasing their treatment of us will NOT get anywhere like it hasn’t done to date.
And they already have all the money I will spend with this company so voting with the mouth is all I have in that scenario.
It is not just about posting….it is about posting AND following up on it. WE do see some posts, our concerns seem to be totally ignored and the devs go off at some irrelevant tangent with their patches WITHOUT explanation or background that would allow players to see what they are doing or trying to do. All we see is constant “bumbling” along in the virtual dark with no apparent direction. Some communication, any communication consistent with their actions would help a great deal…..we just don’t see it.
And because we complain it DOES NOT excuse them from informing paying customers about changes to the game. Stop making excuses for them not to respond…we all know it would be a bit uncomfortable to poke the head up here as a dev BUT it is a product of their own making.
They will stonewall the hue and cry from the forums like in the past and we will hear nothing….they hoping it will all just go away.
But this time I think when the dust settles they may notice a sizeable drop in the number of necros…especially the experienced ones…..and that expertise will be very difficult to recover even if they ever get around to making this class the equal of others both in terms of effectiveness and in terms of the effort they put into it.
I think many necros have just had enough of the neglect and contempt shown to them by ANet. Any sense of trust for the devs has been lost and probably will not be recoverable for many necros.
As I posted in another post.
“Maybe it would get their attention if those who feel SoV is sub-par put in a ticket requesting a refund of skill points. I am certain there would be all sorts of difficulties with it succeeding but it would draw the attention to the issues for those who feel it is inadequate for a 25 skill point ability.”
Just a suggestion.
Maybe it would get their attention if those who feel SoV is sub-par put in a ticket requesting a refund of skill points. I am certain there would be all sorts of difficulties with it succeeding but it would draw the attention to the issues for those who feel it is inadequate for a 25 skill point ability.
Actually the tutorials were/are a good measure of how much things have changed/deteriorated over time. Maybe there is a reason there?
I know it is their game but to dump so much effort that has been put in by one of their stalwart supporters says a lot to me. I hope other “defenders” take heed…. expendability pops into mind.
His last video called a spade a spade. I don’t think it would have gone down too well. The penny has to drop soon that players will not keep accepting what is seen as sub-par and directionless changes.
Outlier results should NOT form part of the base skills balance…
That’s how game balance works. You cannot buff something that is completely broken situationally. You leave it under-tuned until you have the ability to remove that outlier situation from being a problem, and then properly buff it so it is appropriately balanced.
That is very standard game design protocol. The only debate is whether the “outlier” for these skills is so situational that in practice it will not happen with enough regularity to matter. But honestly, Vampiric and Vampiric Precision as they remain now are unbalanceable for any spec but the one that procs them the best. Even if they buffed them enough to be decent for dagger necros, they’d still remain utter crap for any setup that didn’t match that proc rate.
Add the rest of my sentence to what you quoted…
“otherwise you end up where we are now with many lame results rather than good skills where the outlier circumstances are controlled…”
In most of the “balance” scenarios I have been involved with in the past, outliers due to abnormal circumstances DO NOT form part of the balance exercise…..the abnormal circumstances are addressed/eliminated before the skill is balanced around normal gameplay….not just by looking at a spreadsheet and theoretical maxima.
Basically we agree with the principle, it is just the order of events. ANet seems uses a quick and dirty approach that leaves us with sub-par skills, for frustratingly looooong periods, until they eventually hint about get around to addressing fundamental issues that do not turn up on their spreadsheets…like spell/skill actual effectiveness, impact of condi cap on our balance budgets…etc etc.
If we keep just accepting that is how it has to be, then that is how it will be. I don’t believe that it necessarily does have to be like that. They just seem to have thrown the hands up as it is just “too hard”. That is just not good enough for a commerical undertaking like this game and the more we appease that behaviour, the longer it will go on. They have shown good skill developing some of the other classes, they can apply it here to the necro if they want to….those last 4 words are important.
You gave me a good Idea…
why not change all fear effect in : force your target to /laugh This should still interrupt but poor and saddened guys won’t flee anymore.
Allow the “laughs” to stack….once 5 stacks are reached the target will wet themselves (called hysterical flow) causing rust on their armour/weapons like a dot.
Even in the best possible circumstances, the actual impact is pretty low. The devs should not be considering that for balance.
+1
I have been screaming this for a long long time. Outlier results should NOT form part of the base skills balance…otherwise you end up where we are now with many lame results rather than good skills where the outlier circumstances are controlled…ANet’s answer is the quick and dirty solution …they just knobble the raw skills. It is even more lame when the game engine itself (condi cap) means we can rarely even approach the balance budget let alone max our potential, especially for PVE where we are now virtually irrelevant in many/most group situations….great game design.
@ Terravos….read a few threads….this is just the tip of the iceberg for many many many issues with this profession that are just plain ignored by the devs.
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I forgot one MAJOR issue. And that is the cap on conditions that means some of our skills effectively have zero impact at times due to the cap. The game engine itself restricts us from achieving the budgeted balance of our skills….that MUST be overcome.
Our skills are balanced around the maximum up time for conditions we use for them to be fully effective. Now how often does that happen? With all the cleanses, dodges, immunities and avoidance that other classes can use to kill our conditions, there is no wonder we have significant issues. It comes down to the fact that the very rare circumstances that enable our condition to actually do their budgeted damage almost never occur. And yet it still forms the basis of our balance budget. Unless that changes we will stay where we are, no matter what.
They surely have enough data now to look at the actual effectiveness of our skills. The old “what about Epidemic?” will arise. If it is a problem then address Epidemic usage and what it can spread, don’t knobble every other skill we have because of it. And for heaven sake I hope JP doesn’t pull the silly “what if 2 necros use it” stunt again, because 2 necros SHOULD do twice the effect …… that comes at the opportunity cost of not having another class using their skills.
TLDR: Our conditions balance should be based on effectiveness, not some theoretical, unachieveable maximum.
If you want to know what we are up against, look at the quote below from JP early in the discussion about the patch.
“JonPeters
Game Design Lead
Next
Rennoko.5731:
JonPeters.5630:
We talked about a condition like that, but it blows out because we would want to balance it when you only had 1 target to apply it to, but if you epidemic it it now is hitting 6 targets and is wildly OP.
So just lock that skill out from working with epidemic? Like a stun or a daze.
How about 2 necros using this…"
************************************
What about 5 necros…or 10….or 20? You can see how silly that statement is by JP.
Our skills balance is even predicated on the possibility of more than one necro even being there and using the same skill simultaneously. This is just plain bizzare. Do they balance say 100 blades for a warrior on the basis that there might be more than one…NO……what a joke? Looking for excuses to bury the necro skills again. Just bizzare.
Maybe. Anet wants to see it in action before coming to a conclusion.
They did see it in action, last Friday. They were every bit as unimpressed by it as we were, and they were the ones who made the skill. In fact, I was almost impressed by how little of a kitten they gave when they were previewing it. We got the least amount of time of any preview. Warriors got a flipping duel to show off their skill, all we got was to watch Karl get his butt kicked by a golem, fail once to get any worthwhile healing, and then once get a max heal (the same as the base heal for our real heals).
And while they were being unimpressed by our skill? They literally barely talked about it. They mentioned every way it can be countered, they mentioned the point of adding all the support skills (aka, wasting time because they had nothing else to say), pointing out that the thing puts a giant “cool” red mark over the persons head… then moved on to ranger.
It was sad how unimpressed they were by seeing it in action, why would they want thousands of people to have that same experience?
This is the issue for me. It is not just the skill issues themselves, it is that it gives us a brief insight into how they regard the necro and the necro community….again contempt.
I know Bhawb has indicated before that they ARE aware of our major issues and it will be a LONG time before the underlying issues are addressed, BUT, for goodness sake why keep perpetuating the pain by leading us further into irrelevancy with each successive change.
PVE wise we are considered basically irrelevant except in niche situations. It is obvious they are not worried about losing necro population either to other classes or even other games because they wouldn’t keep doing what they are doing.
The worst insult you can give is to ignore someone and not acknowledge their obvious plight and perpetuate it . This ANet deals in spades to necros. No matter how good this game is (potentially), the line has been crossed for me.
Adding to what I was saying before regarding our effectiveness, the condition cap and its impact on one of our primary roles MUST be taken into account. How many times have we seen on these forums QQ about the cap and how it basically neuters condi necros…potentially our strongest meta and the game engine itself hogties it. (PVE). If the condi cap is immutable then our conditions must take that into account. For us to be able to perform at least on a relative basis we cannot be left with the lame excuse “sorry the class design isn’t compatible with the game engine”.
It is not only our own basis that need to be considered. Our EFFECTIVENESS needs to be front and central, not just our potential theoretical outputs.
The ever increasing counters to our abilities that the other professions are getting is heavily impacting on our viability…. apparently without any/a lot of regard to the impact that has on the necro meta and effectiveness in actual gameplay.
While on paper our list of abilities are impressive, they are, in real play, actually significantly neutralised or minimised by the other classes, or are so heavily gated (prerequisites, cds, elites etc) as to be viable only usually a once a fight while the opponents recovery is much quicker.
Focussing on only one side of the equation will always lead to lopsided results that will inevitably end in the roller coaster syndrome of buffs and nerfs.
I have played this game since the betas and I really adore the necro play mechanics/style/role(??). But I have been offline for a bit with some health issues. I have kept reading the forums to keep up with “developments” for our profession and I am really starting to get confused now (probably normal) with regard to our direction vs changes to our skills vs our relative effectiveness in what I thought was the devs preferred role for us. I the absence of any form of input or guidance from ANet at all I have a couple of questions more directed at our longer term viability.
My simple questions are:
1. What are our real, usable, buildable, viable strengths? I don’t think a bland list of all our skills is valid…I mean what can we realistically fit into viable builds and where are they useful…yes I know we are very situational for many builds.
2. Is ANet trying to “kill us off” in terms of a) viability and/or b) as a profession all together through making us ineffective and/or c) through alienating the necro community to the extent that many of us just leave? When looking at our relativity over the longer term we seem to be approaching some sort of irreleveance/disappointment “threshold” in my view.
3. What is really expected of us as a profession? Does anyone actually have a clear idea of this (including the devs) because I certainly don’t? And I don’t mean the public statements thus far; they are hype and the actions/changes/attention given by the devs DO NOT support those statements.
4. Why do we have to rely on “special contacts” to get some form of dialog with the devs, even through the back door? It seems very clear a lot of our concerns are filtered before getting to those who NEED to see them and/or the devs avoid this forum altogether. Pls avoid the “you are a bunch of ferals” answer because it is cause and effect…disaffected people react to contempt.
I am just trying to get a handle on where we are headed FROM A PLAYER’S perspective. I am not too keen on wasting much more time in the game, even though I DO think it has huge potential despite that potential waning rapidly for this profession.
If you don’t like the group then you leave it. What is so hard about that. It is you who are displeased then you are the issue…not them…you leave. simple. Don’t make up some half kitten d excuse to try and impose some self anointed superiority on their enjoyment…just move on to your equals. You are the issue, you have the problem…not them.
@Fenrir
Definitely NOT to pass judgement on others to “kick em”. By all means for personal evaluation of your OWN performance…but do we really want another WoW syndrome…this is one of the things that killed the enjoyment of PUG play in that game….do we want it here, generically, for ALL group encounters?
Like I said…if you don’t like the group then YOU leave it….don’t try and justify a DPS meter on the plausibility of “elitising” (new word there) your group by culling the “weak”. How do you handle group support, healing ,CC and other non DPS activities…you will end up running with 5 warriors. DPS meters DO NOT measure performance……they measure damage and groups need much more than pure damage to succeed.
PS: I am not arguing against DPS meters as such…just the reasons so far put forward…which are mainly juvenile, elitist, judgemental and denying other players enjoyment and is based on a ficticious subset measurement that does NOT cover all roles in the game.
By the way refrain from the personal denegration like “slacking”…you have NO knowledge of my gameplay. Schoolyard tactics are for the schoolyard….not here.
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You didn’t answer the question. Why do you think YOU have the right to judge other people’s enjoyment and spoil it….DPS is not a measure of enjoyment. It is an kitten measuring tool for those who need to ….well you know… Just because you have more DPS DOES NOT give you the right, any right at all, to pass any form of judgement on others in the group. Like I said, if you are unhappy with the performance of the group for whatever means then YOU leave it. DO NOT think you have any right to judge others and stop them from enjoying the game as they want to play it. A DPS tool is only another form of the “adolescent tape measure” and does not belong here.
Why do you think you have the right to judge and adjudicate on other’s enjoyment regardless of their performance…if you don’t like it YOU leave the group…there all solved….your self image does not carry any weight except to you. get over it.
1. The game engine not being up to its task…definitely numero uno.
2. The barely disguised contempt shown by the devs to the player community about bugs, balance and suggestions…especially through stonewalling on gamebraking issues.
3. Bugs and their lack of attention with some still present from launch.
4. The inequity of the treatment for the professions with a strong tilt towards those most commonly played (by the devs?)….a catch 22 that one.
5. The poor communication of what the devs actually want/expect from the different professions (other than the broad meta advertising brochures that they push out that are not supported by ingame mechanics/gameplay)
6. The apparent lack of direction/cohesion/consistency for profession development (necro I am looking at you in particular).
Other than that, basically the best game in its genre in my mind….just a pity they detract so heavily from what it should be with just a little more attention to the player base’s real needs.
Some people need tools to pimp their narcisistic self image (tautology?) while many players, the overwhelming majority in fact, of skill and ability quietly get about their business, while helping others improve…not by punishing their shortcomings.
Primming the chest feathers does not belong in this game especially where it can be used to disadvantage others.
Nemesis at the moment the Spiteful Talisman trait (II in the spite line) seems bugged and actually halves the amount of health regen on Focus 4 (1081 to 541 by erroneously halving the duration of the regen itself rather than just reducing the ability’s cooldown by 20% which you are traiting for). This is obviously a bug as you wouldn’t spend a trait to reduce the CD only to have the regen halved…traiting for diminished ability???? I am using your build at the moment but not that trait till it is fixed.
Edit: when playing around with the maths including the increased area and the reduced CD, the normalised regen comparison on the traited F4 is marginally ahead ….but only marginally. The trait does little when comparing the normalised outcome. The opportunity cost of using the trait for an extra few% regen over the untraited F4 might not be worth sacrificing another trait for it.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
The necromancer spite line trait (II) Spiteful Talisman is supposed to reduce the CD on Focus skills by 20% and increase the range by 300.
It does that BUT on Focus 4 it also halves the amount of health regen both by time (6.25 secs to 3.25) and total health regen (1081HP to 541HP). This is the error. There should be no reduction in the health regen.
It seems a but odd to trait for a 20% CD reduction but cop and undocumented 50% reduction in healing. Pls don’t say it is a tooltip error as this is totally counterintuitive to the concept of traiting for improved abilities….traiting for diminished abilities????
This is easily reproduced. Just equip focus as off hand and swap traits between II (Spiteful Talisman) and any other one…you will notice that when selected the trait halves the health regen.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
I was trying out Nemesis’ tanky build and I was playing around with the trait Spiteful Talisman (spite line).
I noticed it did reduce the cd on Focus skills BUT on Focus 4 it also halved the duration of the regen ( from 6 1/4 secs to 3 1/4) AND halved the total regen (from 1081 to 541). It seems a bit rude to trait for a reduction in cd of 20% but cop a reduction in its ability of 50%. Before I make a total idiot of myself (good at that) is this really flawed or am I on the wrong track? (I did try a search of the forums but came up with nothing).
Edit: I posted it in the bugs forum. It is just counterintuitive to trait for diminished abilities so it can’t just be an undocumented tooltip error/omission.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
Nearly every one of our decent skills is so heavily traited, gated or corralled that we are becoming super-gun-shy about asking for even basic, core, role defining abilities without ourselves hiding them behind a mountain of pre-conditions. This is just wrong. Stability SHOULD be a basic, core, profession characteristic for necros if ANet truly want us to be the attrition class etc etc etc.
I shudder at times at the timid way we seem to approach these issues…like walking on egg shells….mustn’t ruffle the feathers or something.
Cherry picking a couple of Tazer’s comments…not out of context though I think.
“just a matter of finding some gimmick builds” and in the same post “I’m really trying to be realistic”.
Necros dont want to run “gimmick builds” JUST TO SURVIVE and THAT is being realistic. Because to get that “gimmick build” we have to become the “selfish” almost to the extent of being “shunned” in many group senarios.
It is NOT merely a matter of this skill or that, the overall consequences are much larger than the individual skill arguments. And this the devs do NOT see because they don’t play the necro enough to experience that…or they just plonk their ANet badge on and see nothing of the real necro experience.
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^ fully agree. We have spectral armour and spectral walk, why can’t the overflow damage be absorbed (like as it did) by a"spectral shield"?? which, only if it is considered OP (which it wasn’t) automatically triggers a 1 sec cooldown on all abilities, except movement, as we are knocked out of DS (you know like the bug that is/was occuring…although I wonder how easy it is to actually code what was a bug as intentional?)….sheesh the convolutions we have to go through just to get parity or near parity.
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These are just further examples of “gating” our abilities. Many of our abilities are “tamed” down by “gates” such as pre-requisites skills/abilities, traits, RNG procs, interupts, resources (LF), cooldowns, terrain (LoS) and the list goes on. Like I said before, while our abilities look good by themselves on paper, their actual use/hit success negates a lot of those highlights. Add to that the counters, dodges, misses, cleanses and it takes a bit for us to connect meaningfully when compared to the raw ability specs on paper. Thats why our abilites need to be looked at from the actual hit-landing-end (actual effectiveness) rather than from the casting-end (max THEORETICALLY possible).
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
Hmmmm we seem to have come adrift from the original topic.
My basic concern is that our damage balance budget includes DS offensive abilities. If I use them I am left without enough LF to handle the defensive requirements that ANet have imposed on DS…after all it is all we have in many ways as a surrogate shield and even that has been knobbled with the DS damage overflow to health.
BY all means gate Dhuumfire but not through DS which itself is heavily gated already with both cooldown and resource restraints. Placing Dhuumfire (or any ability) on the end of that makes 4-5 gates before it can be effective. That is the problem with a lot of our skills…great on paper but either gated out of useability and/or corralled by counters, dodges, stuns, interupts, cleanses, terrain, etc etc….. great on papaer whenever they actually proc and hit but that is diminishing significantly.
Quite a while ago I raised the issue of DS becoming the devs catch cry….you know “but you have DS”…a catch-cry for why necros miss out on certain things and I feel it is really starting to show. I just feel the one-resource-fits-all mentality/approach is leaving us very thin on the ground.
As I mentioned in a couple of other threads, my main concern about our defence is that ANet expect us to use our defensive DS LF for both offense (which is included in our balance parameters) and defence. On top of this the change to allow incoming DS damage to spill over to real health is unjustified in any shape or form given our lack of other mitigation abilities and just seemed like an act of kittenry (self imposed censor here). The other issue is that we have to build LF BEFORE we can use our primary defensive shield substitute…..and that leaves us hugely vulnerable early in encounters.
I posted in another thread about 3 issues regarding the balance of abilities and maybe it should have been posted here instead:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necromancer-s-only-defense/page/5#post3178733
Basically my points were:
1. Raw details on abilities themselves do not indicate how viable they are to fit into a build.
2. A lot of our abilities are heavily “gated” to the extent that they rarely meet their max potential. EG torment relies on Proc>DS>cd for DS>enough LF>LF used for defensive abilities>LF erosion over time<LF harder for condi builds<change traits affect condi build. Many are similar in terms of gating.
3. A lot of our abilities are “coralled” by resources, long CD, counters, cleanses, dodges, blocks, terrain etc. Add to that the opponent’s CC and we are borked like a lot of people are expressing.
I also raised an issue in a separate thread about the possible double counting of resources that is also relevant here. Primarily it asks the question about DS damage as a part of our damage balance yet being expected to use DS for defence thus diminishing damage potential.
These ALL need to be considered together when looking at balance…not just the ability in isolation. It is why we seem so lame in real life (outside of the cookie cutter builds) but to the devs we look so good on paper.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
This is just a question from a “not-so-good” player.
I was simply looking at LF as a resource we build up and spend on defensive and offensive abilities. It seemed to me, without being able to underpin it all with sound game maths, that it is more than a little stretched for what it seems ANet expects of it both offensively and defensively especially with the latest change to DS damage overflow.
Has anyone closely looked at this in terms of real time gameplay? Is LF overcommitted?
Edit: for example, if our damage is balanced around the use of DS as a part of our damage abilities, it means if we use DS defensively (like ANet want us to), we will never be able to reach our damage balance potential because the effective LF resource has been double committed….offensive LF abilities for damage but redirected for defensive abilities for survival (a necessity). It means if we use LF/DS as Anet intend us to we cannot achieve our damage balance….and vice versa….if we max our damage balance we are left vulnerable without LF for survival.
I wonder how ANet reconcile this apparent contradiction. To me it appears a double counting of a resource.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
When you straight list a lot of our abilities (like above) they DO look impressive. BUT there are 3 issues that severely “hog-tie” their usage/effectiveness in actual gameplay.
1. A lot are only really maxed out in “niche” builds with limited use. Much of the time the traits required are out of reach to include more than one or two of those abilities in any one build. So we need to stop just listing all the highlights as they are NOT achieveable in a viable build.
2. Many of our best abilities are heavily “gated”. Again, while they look good listed, they are difficult to actually use to the max. For example torment requires DS and that requires LF but as a condimancer you are struggling a lot of the time to create LF for offense (used on defence)..plus DS cooldown superimposed on that…again unless you trait heavily and knobble the condi build. Sure some are good but only when the planets align and you are standing facing north balancing on your left foot. Much of the time those pre-requisites do not align, limiting procs and synergies such that the abilities in practice lose much of their attractiveness and effectiveness.
3. Most of our abilities are heavily “coralled” by large CDs, counters, cleanses, dodges, blocks etc to such an extent that they are a loss in terms of the contribution a necro can make. Add to that the opponents CC and you see where that leaves us.
All 3 of these constraints need to be taken into account when considering balance.
At the moment too many people (including, it seems, the devs) mainly concentrate on the isolated impact abilities without considering how possible/effective they actually are in real life gameplay.
This is where the necro community is missing out as it seems this is not the case in balancing so far.
Edit: spelling several times
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
14 months of waiting…….water….i …neeed….w…a…t…..e…..r.
Agree though Bhawb…we need info (other than rhetoric) on which we can build some hope…..other professions get it…..it is not like we are asking to be “special snowflakes”….just treated equally.
I hope this won’t earn an infraction but I feel it needs to be said. I, of course, don’t pretend to speak for all posters, but read these forums for the necro and the following stands out pretty clearly.
Again we see our concerns being “dismissed” (almost contemptously) with throw-away rhetoric that IS NOT substantiated in any way especially given the overwhelming evidence/experiences of players who main necros (Putrid Mark thread in Bugs forum and the reaction to Blood changes last patch that did basically nothing but tread water for example)..
I really enjoy the necro in whatever minor way I play it (limited for lots of reasons) but I am constantly incensed by the way player concerns are ignored and dismissed.
We are not told what expectations the devs have of our class other than high level vague meta or, the other extreme, by focussing at one-skill-at-a-time level….with NO in between that players vcan work on and no analysis amalgamating outcomes with other changes.
While I do appreciate Jon’s time in posting, his comments thus far, as those of others on other issues, simply reinforces player perceptions of these statements being out of touch with player reality.
I noticed in the Ele/Mes threads there was considerable to-and-fro on issues with Jon providing good background info in support of their direction….this is a far cry from the unsubstantiated glib “one liners” we seem to get simply to shut down discussion. From a long work history dealing with similar issues in the software/finance industry as an auditor/systems auditor, I have found that these sorts of approach/behaviour are sometimes used to mask ineptitude or lack of knowledge/skill. I hope this is not the case here and I am not saying it is but the players are not seeing much to counter.
I am not pointing this out simply as a QQ but maybe, just maybe, the devs don’t realise why players are expressing their futility at not being HEARD and being more than a bit abrupt at times. We are human and react to contempt……..even if only to get some form okittennowledgement that someone is listening sometimes.
edit: the kittken above ….. “acknowledgement” preceeded by “of” ? really
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
" Tyler Chapman.1832:
It will no longer cleanse teammates and it will always give a full cooldown when interrupted because its one of the best skills in the game."
Why is this a reason to put it on full CD? I mean if it has been interupted then a partial CD should be sufficient….especially with the plethora of other damage mitigation/interupts that other classes now have.
When you look at the overall meta this just says “we will give the opponent the opportunity to interupt this ability, AND we will give the opponent more skills to take it out of action, AND we will make an interupt trigger a full cooldown”. Triple whammy right there. So how does it remain “one of the best abilities in the game”?
I think the devs need to look wider than the individual skill and more at the impact on the meta. This is what is making so many of our abilities so lame unless we can “cookie cutter” a build to exploit synergies outside the original intent (dhuumfire/fear anyone).
EDIT: It is exactly this type of throw away hyperbole that the players know is just not true in actual gameplay that increases the players feeling of futility in explaining issues in a rational manner.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
Again I see a problem in their focus on individual abilities in isolation. They talk about the max impact of skills (fully traited), they do not talk about viable builds where most of the time you cannot fully trait all of the skills. This has caused a lot of our current lackluster abilities to either be “meh” because we can’t trait them, or OP when traited and used in combinations that the devs haven’t even considered as they are do not appear to look at build synergies.
The same is starting to apply to the damage reduction/condi removal abilities of other classes and how they effect the necro meta. The devs are obviously really gun shy about OP damage abilities/skills but they do not seem to apply the same caution to what is becoming OP damage mitigation and its effect on all condi metas. When you look at the “mitigation abilities eruption” of some of the professions it is difficult to see how the actual impact on the condi metas has been taken into account….especially when there is also nerfing of the condi’s themselves being introduced at the same time. We are talking about balance here.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
The devs looked like they agreed to lower the 90% to 85% for the patch and may consider 80% as per the JP quote below. I am at a real loss as to what role they want the necro to play…this is the “death-of-a-thousand-cuts”.
“Right now I am thinking 85% on diamond skin as high health eles could break this at 80% imo.
Also thinking 25% cooldown on the alacrity traits so we can move slowly. If we go 30% and have to nerf after that I would not be happy. The diamond skin thing is possible for dec 10th. The cooldown thing on alacrity traits is more likely to be the following patch because it has a lot of testing requirements that concern me.
Jon"
It also amazes me that other classes actually have dialog on their abilities and direction ….compare that to their communication on the necro!!!
Its the old problem all over again…the base abilities are nerfed/kept at very low levels just to avoid the rarer outlier OP chances as Bhawb indicated above. This approach will always end with lack luster abilities and results in the player base adopting the "cookie cutter’ builds to utilise the OP outcome just to rfemain competitive because this is what we are balanced on….and this has been the problem with a lot of our skills so far.
Badgering posters about how they FEEL about the game only serves to reinforce those original feelings…it does NOT change them. Just a casual read of the previous several pages highlights this…..most of the “to-and-froing” was only personal opinion…..NO ONE’s opinion is right or wrong….it is a product of their experiences and values…..these cannot be overcome by howling them down…..winning a “debate” on these forums does not change opinions.
These forums are for players to express their likes and dislikes in the game and posters should be allowed to freely express those feelings. This is almost the ONLY way ANet can get real feedback…….if they and/or the cheersquad keep trying to suppress contrary opinions they might as well close the forums to public posting.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the changes were more for the appearance of “doing something for the necro” than actually changing anyhting at all when you compare it to some of the other class changes. Why any of the devs would single out these changes as a feature of this patch for necros just reinforces that suspicion.
The other issue is that in some of the dev posts they keep mentioning that they are waiting to see how the changes affect the “meta”. What “meta” and how to they measure the changes to it? It would be nice if in their “newly discovered sharing of information sharing mode” if we could actually see this “meta” thing they are measuring things against so we would at least have an inkling of what they expect of us. But I fear they will avoid this at all costs because it would then become a defacto tool for measuring THEIR performance in meeting their “meta” goals.
What…more tooltip fixes?
No matter how much the cheer squad try to deflect people’s thoughts on the “manifesto” it remains :
1. A published statement of their intended meta for the game.
2. People believed ANet would be able to deliver on what were pretty clear statements of intent.
3. Many people made their purchase of the game on those beliefs.
4. People are ENTITLED to voice their disappointment that the game does not meet their expectations created by 1 and 2 and 3.
5. ANet has failed in communicating changes in a meaningful and timely fashion.
6. Player communications are largely ignored.
7. Players feel abandoned on many issues, ie play breaking bugs which have been evident since beta…this destroys player confidence in the development team…especially when they are not even acknowledged.
8. As a result of a lot of these issues, rightly or wrongly, people have lost trust in ANet to deliver.
People are allowed to feel misled and voice that opinion, and should not be howled down for doing so.
All the counterposts and weaving will NOT change how people FEEL.
The old sayings “words are cheap” and “actions speak louder than words” may hold more truth here than they appear to.
It says a lot when the cheer squad are so vigorous in a particular thread. I am not saying either is right or wrong BUTto me it just seems to add credence to the OP…at least its general thrust anyway…when the cheer squad turns up you know the saying “methinks he protesteth too much”.
Xolotl ……..the AZTEC god of sickness, deformity, and misfortune.