Nah..get rid of RNG totally…let us buy Porous Bones with gems.
“In short, I enjoy my Necro; have found a couple of builds that work well.”
I think we all have found a couple of niche builds that work well in limited circumstances...outside of those pigeonholed scenarios we certainly do need help.
I would just like to make a couple of observations….they neither support nor flame the OP….I don’t think there is a right/wrong answer.
1. Many “player” issues are exactly that….things only players can address. Things like boredom, propensity to grind, appreciation of rewards, attention spans, need for new stuff are not uniform across the player spectrum so there IS NO ONE ANSWER the devs can hone in to fix all things up…and nor should they..there are just not enough resources. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t do what they can but there is a limit.
2. Devs cannot fix all issues for all players because of 1.
3. “original ideas” which work for the MMO genre are really hard to come by. The ANet devs are NOT the font of all wisdom in this regard and should listen more to the wider MMO community and extremely talented player base for feedback. Many times, and not only with this MMO but also that other “elephant in the room”, you can almost see the devs trying as hard as possible to incorporate a player idea without appearing to do so…just silly. Not that the game design is a democracy (to quote GC) but good ideas are good ideas no matter where they come from….devs, players, other games or the broader community.
4. We all eventually change our perceptions over time….what seemed good/captivating yesterday may not hold true tomorrow.
Just my own thoughts.
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Aussie and proud of it…it is also India’s founding day as well (26 Jan) so best wishes to them too.
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@Somoe
Those abilities you listed before do look impressive when viewed like that..a list.
Now try and work those into a viable build and you start tripping over all sorts of issues like lack of weapon/trait synergy, excessive cooldowns, pitifully short durations (fear anyone), broken mechanics and really lackluster damage (attrition comes at a cost).
I don’t think anyone is arguing we have don’t access to some great abilities but we are arguing that we cannot access enough of them to be competitive other than in a few niche areas….and many don’t like being painted into small corners.
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I think Levian and Brujeria summed up my thoughts pretty much…some situational changes but rarely.
I have been trying to get the message across that there are two sides to AoE. The damage output (say by us) and the damage received by the targets. It seems everyone is focusing on damage output and not damage avoidance/mitigation/survivability of the targets.
There are many glass canons out the complaining about our AoE (which we have had to incorporate in some build at a lot of expense to burst etc.) yet they refuse to modify their builds to add a bit of avoidance/mitigation/survivability so ANet solution is to punish us. Having said that, the choice to add some survivability etc must come at a cost and not simply be handed out as passive abilities. After all we have had to chose the opportunity cost of damage for survivability and AoE. But I fear this will be too hard for them.
In addition, there are so many bugs with broken mitigation/avoidance traits and abilities that I can’t for the life of me see how they can balance any damage, let alone single out AoE, without them being fixed first. Only today there was a red post about a broken dodge mechanic (been there for a long time) is going to be fixed in the the next patch….things like this have a DIRECT bearing on any AoE analysis that needs to be undertaken before they start hacking and slashing.
I am at a real loss…anyway I start chemo tomorrow so it will keep me occupied for a while….but I really do not like the thought of what “damage” will be done by “hasty simplistic” fixes that don’t address the real issue by the time I get back on.
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Those professions with the lowest uptake would probably indicate a real weakness in AN global terms….GW2census.com indicates that may be the Engineer (10.8%), the Necro (11.1%) and the Ranger (12.3%). Then the review might also look at toning down some as well as boosting those under performing…I am not going to point fingers.
As I said several times in this thread, I am concerned that they have only looked at one side of the AoE equation.
I am at a loss at them focusing on AoE damage output when such basic things like dodge (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Dodge-roll-randomly-fails-video-included/page/2#post1259644) is flawed and thus distorting things like AoE damage. And this is only one such issue.
However, I feel they have made up their minds would see it as an unacceptable “loss of face” to change that now, especially as it has been so widely publicized. I just don’t think they have looked hard enough at the underlying causes to get it right….easy way out is not necessarily the best way for the game’s longevity.
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Thank you…they really were becoming a pain.
The structuring of a character needs to be a series of PLAYER choices, balance of attack, defence and avoidance. BUT IT MUST BE A PLAYER’S CHOICE. It would be wrong for a whole heap of passive abilities to appear to mitigate AoE or any particular type of damage for that matter. Passives do NOT involve player choice and can exacerbate the original problem if not very carefully constructed….and they do not give the player any sense of reward for making the right choices whether they be skills in building a character or when abilities are used.
That said the devs need to make sure that all professions have the right mix of active/closeable/skills to enable those player choices to be obvious and meaningful…for example if I sacrifice a damage trait for a defence or mitigation trait then they should reasonably balance… give up 5% damage get 10% mitigation or 10% extra defence over a decent duration (numbers are just made up but you get the idea).
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This discussion seems highly imbalanced and seems to focus only on the AoE abilities. There is very little discussion of the other side of the equation…that is building characters that can avoid and /or mitigate AoE.
I have a condition/wells/epidemic necro. To get it even partway viable I have had to sacrifice a lot of burst and trait up survivability so I can conform to the devs vision of an attrition class but it sort of works…I can still be well and truly ganked…no one should be invulnerable or anywhere near it.
Maybe and just maybe those glass cannons complaining about AoE need to adopt a similar approach and tone down their burst for better avoidance and survivability rather than just look at a one sided argument of nerfing AoE. If they don’t want to chose better survivability/avoidance then why should other players be punished for that choice through limiting their options? It is a trade off and should be meaningful in terms of sacrifice vs utility vs survivability.
This is what I have been alluding to all along. There is a real lack of balanced analysis of what the real issues are. The only focus seems to be based on a kneejerk approach of “treating the symptom rather than the disease”.
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I wonder if they will also tone down the NPC/Boss AoE blanketing of event areas. Now they are at times really unfair.
As I said in another post, AoE is not an issue and we have seen no compelling evidence to that effect. Anecdotal comments so far are just that, don’t withstand scrutiny and are in fact contradictory.
This is just a treat the symptom rather than the disease approach.
The issue is not AoE and JS hinted at part of a real underlying issue…the non-AoE skills on some weapon sets are weak. The answer is NOT to weaken the AoE but boost the non-AoE components so players can CHOOSE the most effective ability themselves (and even make mistakes) rather than have them prescribed through make alternatives useless.
Also players need to just get out of the red circles…even with a high ping I can usually manage that (PVE) and AoE stacking (both PVE and PvP) could be controlled thru limiting target areas to a specific number of simultaneous AoEs.
It is amazing that so many players have just blindly accepted that the is an AoE issue. We have seen no evidence of it…we have seen some of the symptoms mentioned above but AoE is not the underlying cause. And this is what I am driven by with this. A half-baked analysis of the issues will not yield good outcomes. And I have seen no real analysis and evidence that supports the contention that AoE is the issue and needs some sort of nerfing.
They are treating the symptom rather than the disease. There is nothing inherently wrong with AoE and its use. I have yet to see any compelling evidence that AoE itself is the issue or in fact that it is an issue at all…we only have a few anecdotal comments that don’t hold water when looked at closely.
People use AoE because it is the most effective tool they have available…and that is the key. The availability of other forms of attack are so poor/bugged/restricted that the only option is to use whatever abilities that work. In this case the answer is NOT TO NERF AOE but to FIX UP/BUFF ALTERNATIVE ATTACKS.
The other main symptom is players are whining about the AoE but refuse to get out of the red circles. The answer is NOT TO NERF AOE but to give the players BETTER WAYS TO AVOID IT which can be a combination of L2P and maybe better dodging ability or something.
Don’t forget that some players have unavoidably high pings (yes I am an Oceanic player) which need to be considered in addressing reflex-type actions and that in itself can be an issue in AoE heavy fights….not the AoE itself.
AoE Stacking can be an issue but can be easily addressed by limiting the number of simultaneous AoEs on any one particular target area. For example if a necro lays down a well then only one or two other AoEs can be placed in the same spot simultaneously.
Then we come to the impacts of treating the symptom rather than the real underlying issues. Those professions that are designed around attrition and condition damage will need serious reevaluation/design changes/player skill upheaval. Is that fair rather than treating the real issues surrounding AoE.
Nerfing it is an easy partial way to quell some whining but it will NOT fix the underlying issues.
These are just some of my own thoughts and many more experienced players will undoubtedly be able to identify more of the underlying issues that affect AoE.
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Well, what is interesting is the number of people suddenly speaking against AoE nerf. So, I wonder what the real reason for this nerf is? ANet, care to elaborate?
I don’t know that it is “suddenly” but more realization that reasoning quoted seems awfully shallow and there is no backup data at all, just some anecdotal blurb which wilts under scrutiny….in fact it seems to be contrary to players’ experiences or issues that are not of the players’ making.
This will be a good test for their stated communication improvements promised….time will tell.
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@Calsifer…I agree 100% that Aoe will always be AoE.
My concern is the reasons put forward as some sort of evidence that something should be done about AoE in certain situations. Those statements just don’t hold water.
The first concerns player choice on the use of skills whether or not it is in the most “efficient” manner should be left to the player…not prescribed through manipulating already limited skills.
The second concerns scenario design wholly and solely..not the use of AoE in and of itself.
I am just as concerned with the outcome as ANet as it is not “us vs them”. We all care about this game. But I am concerned that the reasons mentioned for the particular focus on AoE really are shallow. It seems like there is something deeper at issue…I wish they would tell us.
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AoE skills cannot be looked at in isolation as the sole reason behind some aberrations in play styles. As I indicated above, for example, the scenario design plays a big part in how players use their skills (and I am focusing on PVE here). Take the mob density and spawn rates (I know they are being looked at) in Orr at the moment. A Necro HAS to AoE to survive as we are the “attrition” class and have very little (read no) burst to be able to quickly down sequential mobs. And this is the very basis on which our abilities have been designed… attrition.
This is what I am saying…it seems AoE is being singled out as the prime issue where it is not….and certainly not the only issue that warrants it being targeted.
In my past role as an auditor I have seen situations like this many times. People perceive (maybe without sufficient data or justification) a problem, evolve what they think is the solution then they try and justify the solution through the selective manipulation of “evidence”. It is natural but it is an erroneous approach often leading to ineffectual outcomes and sometimes the root cause of the initial problem not being addressed at all. I am not saying that is happening here but it bears all the hallmarks of similar approaches.
And this^^^ (Critickitten’s post)
Edit: Above I asked two very simple questions on statements made by ANet in this regard.
What is so fundamentally wrong with using AoE on single mob fights that the devs want to nerf it even though its damage is usually less than non-AoE strikes?
Why is it unacceptable to use AoE in dungeon situations when that may be the most effective way to progress to the extent that the devs want to prevent this by nerfing AoE.
The answer to these may point to the real issues rather than AoE being OP.
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“If your skil does 10 damage to a single target, if you have another skill that have the same opportunity cost but deals 8 damage to 5 targets, the AoE skill is better – we don’t want you to use AoE skills on single target mobs.”
Alright I am going to be really naive here…why not? We are talking about single mobs here aren’t we? How is the 8 damage better on the single mob than the 10 damage? And what is wrong with AoE damage on a single mob? I really don’t understand the statement at all…it just seems like a fabricated “excuse/justification”.
“Same thing with dungeons – right now if you have a lot of AoE you can past encounters by just spamming AoE which is not what we want.” Isn’t that what AoE is all about? Ii seems more a scenario design issue than player ability use issue? Again it just seems like a “fabricated” justification.
We want to bring up all the weak weapons/traits on par with strong weapons/builds/traits in addition to reduce AoE effectiveness.
A lot of classes have 1-2 good builds while some have 5-6 builds , we want to bring up all the classes to 5-6 good and viable builds.
I will be pretty interested to see how our attrition basis will work with reduced AoE. AoE/wells/marks are the only way we can survive multiple mobs while “wearing them down” attrition style. Maybe we will get some abilities less focused on attrition to compensate…in other words a rethink of our profession’s very foundation…get ready for the roller coaster fellas (fellas notionally includes girls in this case)…I think it will a big fast downhill first before any slow rise. I just don’t have a good feeling about this especially as my favorite build (shoehorned into it as the only viable one I like) is condition/wells/marks/epidemic based…a true attrition build.
PS I will just add here that builds that require super fast reaction/dodge requirements are out because as an Oceanic player I have a base latency over 150 before our local ISP/Internet’s overheads. Normal latency around the 250-330 mark. I hope ANet factor these type of issues into their “viability” criteria.
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The Dirty Dozen:
1) Would you prefer ascended gear to be the last tier implemented for the remainder of GW2?
2) Would you prefer ascended gear to be equal to exotic gear in all statistics except agony resistance?
3) Would you prefer the level cap to remain at 80 for the remainder of GW2?
4) Would you prefer if WvW was set up on an equal playing field similar to PvP?
5) Would you prefer if WvW / PvP / PvE had separate skill functionalities?
6) Would you prefer if Magic Find was removed from the game completely?
7) Would you prefer if Magic Find was divided equally amongst all party members?
8) Is GW2 too ‘Grindy?’
9) Does GW2 need less RNG?
10) Has the Trading Post [and all its users/farmers] positively impacted the economy?
11) Do you have as much faith [and/or enthusiasm] about the game [and/or company] as you did before launch?
12) Do you reasonably expect [many of] your primary concerns to be addressed in early 2013?
Answers:
1. No
2. Yes
3. No
4. Not fussed either way
5. No
6. Yes
7. No… remove it
8. No
9. No
10. No
11. No…especially with regards to meaningful, honest communication
12. No
I would like to see if they could develop something like a “Patrol of Grunts” …say 5 melee based sub-characters (total damage about the same as a warrior/guardian). Could have a basic mix of melee and elementary ranged skills….low individual damage but as a “swarm” could hold their own. Almost like a mini 5 man group which by default all follow the “corporal” whom you basically control most of the time, or can on a limited basis be individually controlled for a short time. (an example “troop” could be a corporal (sword and pistol), two riflemen, one greatswordsman, and a melee/medic).
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I was not making a case..I was merely stating what IS. Stop making assumptions.
Why do you automatically connect the dots between sex and nudity? You can very well have nudity without sex.
Don’t let the Pope guilt-trip you, bro/sista.
You make a huge assumption there and a wrong one….I was a naturist for a substantial part of my life. I have NO hangups about nudity at all. And I am agnostic.
It would offend many cultures/religions whose peoples play this game.
Religion’s view (or rather, Christinaty’s view – it is Christianity we mean when we say “religions”, isn’t it…) is so warped, twisted and wrong it should not be allowed to carry any sway in any matter concerning nudity.
That may be the case and I am not arguing in its favor…..I am saying not all cultures/people are as free about sex and nudity as others.
You need to look beyond your own values and at society values at large…including this game playing society. One view does not fit all and that is the beauty of our democratic societies…we can all hold different views.
First of all I will sate that I grew through puberty in the 60s ..the era of free sex etc etc so I am not a prude by any stretch of the imagination.
I can’t even see why there is any discussion on this.
It would add NOTHING to the game.
It would offend many cultures/religions whose peoples play this game.
There are plenty of other places on the net to get anime/pics/video that include nudity so can we please just have one place on the net….our game…where it is not thrown at us in every conceivable way.
It ain’t gunna happen.
I would dearly liker to try a build other than well bombing conditionmancer. This really is an innocent question Ascii…..are the numbers you are seeing the “norm” given they are based on several parameters all lining up? It would seem to be a “healmancer” of sorts. What other utilities can you fit in with that?
Ah some humor at last….Yeah I do realise that but I was just responding to the usual listing of our possible abilities being put forth AGAIN (even by innuendo) as a though we can do all these things in one battle. We can’t and I think they know we can’t too. Just why keep peddling the same old falsehoods.
Why OH why do we seem to get the “cheer squad” just before a patch comes out……are we being prepared for the same old disappointment.
@ DK…..why am I not allowed to express my view and you are? I could be just as offensive and use the same schoolyard tactic of pick on the messenger and not the message too…but maybe I am a bit more grown up than that…..don’t worry you will eventually grow up too.
PS if you look at that post you will see the build quickly fell apart when you tried to actually build it.
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As I have said many times before, metadata lists of abilities are not viable builds and when you examine the ability numbers/duration/cooldowns and try and match them with weapon skills and traits you will see why there are only a very limited number of builds that are barely viable given the current state of bugs and trait synergies.
I have actually pleaded with the devs for an example of how to build a necro that matches their vision of the profession…I do not believe it possible with the current trait structures and abilities and no-one has showed one that can do what the devs say a necro is supposed to be. All we get trotted out relentlessly is a list of possible abilities which in themselves look good until you try and make a build with them…then the bugs/numbers/cooldowns/exclusions/trait structures quickly demolish that vision…still doesn’t stop them being repeated ad nauseum by the cheer squad..
To those who just want to cheer lead “the necro is OK” then that is your prerogative but I do not want to remain shoehorned into really limited playstyles just to be competitive when this profession offers so much potential that is held back (maybe deliberately).
I am not normally a whiner and if you perceive my comments as such then you need some lessons in comprehension. As a passionate player of the necro in my own limited way, I only want the best for the profession and the game at large. Comments like Hackks ones above do nothing to progress the multitude of issues with the necro and the devs just turn away from such juvenile bickering and chest thumping leaving valid issues unaddressed.
Now the devs are back from their break maybe we could get a response to this plea.
Now show us a viable single build that can do more than 2 or 3 of those wonderful abilities. We DO have some great utilities but many are mutually exclusive/weapon specific/specialised or have limited durations on long cooldowns resulting in a limited number builds that have a very narrow focus (eg conditionmancer) otherwise it means just plain ordinary effectiveness.
Lots of server errors (502) here too.
This happens a lot on Maguuma with this event.
Minion AI can be really simplified by just giving the players control over “attack” and “return”. Very simple and would take a huge load off the devs having to try and work out complicated AI. It doesn’t solve all the issues but it would certainly make MMs a lot more viable at little dev cost.
Isn’t it good to get it all out in the open though?
I don’t want to play a profession with the most bugs…you fellas are welcome to that role if you want.
What about your stated role and your ability to achieve it in a viable build….I really hope it is better than the necro because ours is kitten awful.
So necro is worse than this?
Did you even look at the forum?….almost a 2:1 and most of us have given up maintaining it simply because we go for weeks and weeks without redress or even a response.
Bleeding ….everyone stacks bleeding and we as a prof are probably one of the slowest at it…the Jagged Horror’s stack would just be lost in the turmoil or worse still excluded because of the stack max. If it has to stay then it has to be meaningful for a compulsory trait.
I can’t just get the same satisfaction out of other classes no matter how much is wrong with the nercro.
I adore the playstyle and general concept but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired especially when we cannot build anything like their stated vision of the profession.
I keep coming back to these places hoping beyond hope that some epiphany has occurred and the devs see the light.
After having a LONG career in systems design, auditing and governance compliance I see a lot wrong with what we get; both in terms of what’s delivered in the game and also the treatment of us as paying clients. Both need to be addressed if the game is to succeed as we all want it to.
If by bugs you mean which prof has the most abilities/traits not performing to description I would say necro by a narrow margin…many profs have non-performing abilities/traits that need fixing.
If you mean bugs as not being able to achieve the vision of the different profs as recently outlined by ANet then it is definitely the necro by a long margin. It is simply not possible to come anywhere near what they have described as their vision of a necro….and they don’t even mention minions which are a necro staple in most normal interpretations of a necro.
I think the relative profession census populations will support this.
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We need two basic fixes at the very least
Pathing; and
Ability to command them to attack and to recall them.
Other than that most are situational and build specific which, while still important, won’t have the overall impact of the two mentioned. The command ability puts all the AI back on the player and would make it much easier for them to implement as the “intelligence” is abrogated to the player.
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It IS a very very good MMO and when they eventually get around to fixing many of the game-effecting bugs it will be even better. It is also important that players keep letting ANet know where they are dropping the ball…overall it is for the game’s best interest….and that is something I think we all have at heart.
I too have noticed this on my necro…..sometimes just unable to dodge at all when in a red circle.
I believe a lot of us have “evolved” as gamers where the old “ways” in games are just not satisfying us anymore and we are demanding more and more in terms of innovation (to stimulate our shorter attention spans) and content (as we rush to max out everything as soon as we can now) to get that same level of “satisfaction”. I am not criticizing or picking on the OP but I am asking is it only the game that is at issue? I know with me it is more me than the game.
Reanimator is just the worst Minor Trait in the game.
While there are other weak Minor Traits to be found there is not one other that does little good to begin with and gives you all the negative effects of having a pet on top of that. As soon as you put your 5 points in Death Magic you are weaker for having it, mainly for the following reasons:
1.) This Jagged Horror does very little damage and dies easily as soon as there is some AoE damage or an enemy concentrates on it (<- must be a bored PvE mob). This leads to a statistically irrelevant amount of damage over its lifetime.
2.) The Trait triggers upon an enemy’s death which means that it is completely and utterly useless during prolonged fights against single strong enemies (Champions etc.). For the same reason it is often useless when it triggers since the Jagged Horror dies before you enter the next combat or very shortly thereafter.
3.) The Jagged Horror suffers from serious pet AI issues. Sometimes it contributes in the laughable way it can. More often it just watches as you fight or charges off to aggro new enemies or does similarly useless or detrimental things.
4.) Despite its lack of actual use it counts as a fully-fledged pet with all its positive effects for enemies (mostly PvP) fighting you and needing a target for some effect (stealth from Cloak&Dagger for example or a gift-wrapped Vengeance Rally).
5.) The Reanimator Trait probably is the (weak) justification for the next Minor Trait, Protection of the Horde, which is equally weak unless you play a pet-necro. If you do not want to play a pet-necro Death Magic is very costly trait-wise as two of your Minor Traits are basically worthless. I do not remember any other profession being coerced into a special kind of build by Minor Traits in one line.
^^^ Probably sums up my feelings.
Maybe a better question would be "How many of us would chose it as a trait if it was a CHOICE at say the 10 or 20 point level in the trait line? To me it seems like we are just being forced to accept the Jagged Horror because if left to choice it would expose its real value as far as the players are concerned…ie useless.
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I partially agree with Ratphink…partially.
There IS a lot of “NOISE” on the forums in general but as it was stated above, people are trying to get their “pet” (read important) issues as a priority in the resource-scarce development “machine”.
I do agree that the etiquette displayed by some is not good but AN must accept some of the responsibility for that if only because of their abysmal communication regarding development issues and addressing bugs.
Having said that, I do not think that the complaints can be dismissed or devalued just because, and it is only anecdotal, that the complainants are a small minority. Without their input many game issues would remain unaddressed.
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Well well well….minion AI being worked on…
Red post near bottom of thread…about 8hrs old.
I actually don’t mind a bit of a grind and I have never shied away from a bit hard yakka…what I don’t like is being told one thing and exactly the opposite happens….and they will just get away with it. The bait and switch strategy seems common to most game companies these days.
An MMO without grind? What dream world are you living in? Take me with you?
The one ANet sold us…remember the manifesto?
“We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2”
- Colin Johanson, Guild Wars 2 Manifesto
PLEASE just fix some bugs…and if they are intended as some form of moderation on skills/damage then be honest and say so…..players are honestly sick and tired of skirting around broken traits/skills/abilities that should operate as stated….because it appears that these form the basis of your vision of the classes….which at the moment are largely unachievable except in some very narrow interpretations.