Showing Posts For Onerios.4962:
It’s worth stating that when I said that reapers could reach near 18k dps, that was under near optimal conditions. Stationary non interacting target, all debuffs already applies, perfect skill usage with optimal damage utilities, berserker gear, and the target below 50% health so all our damage modifiers kick in. Still stand by that value, but it should not be taken out of context and treated as the average fight dps, which is going to be significantly lower.
Running berserker may give you the option of using Soul Eater instead of Decimate Defense in situations where you will be fully buffed, but I’ve not run the numbers to check if that actually is the case. It’s still fairly narrow however, most of the time you will end up using dd when dps matters.
It seems that half the hero points are inaccessible unless you have a baseline masteries trained, and at least one of the ones you can access with just glider seems to require something else trained, since there is a large hylak sitting on top of it preventing you from channeling. Little bit annoyed about that.
Less sure about that, you are losing a 5/7/10% damage modifier from your runes if you do that. Now if its aoe quickness you may be on to something, but self only the damage modifier is going to be better in terms of dps.
sPvp or WvW, having the wells tick quicker may be more useful however, compressing the damage.
Roaming is never going to be as effective on necromancer as it is with other classes since it is part of the design that we don’t get the ability to disengage (and thereby avoid getting into fights that we are less likely to win) in exchange for, in theory, preventing others from disengaging as easily. Not sure quite how well that has turned out in practice, but since being able to chose not to fight is rather key to a successful roamer if that’s what your looking to spend a lot of time doing you may want to look at other classes who have a toolset better suited to it.
For leveling I’ve got a stack of staffs with swiftness sigils and would use devestation/salvation. Throws out enough swiftness to keep you rolling between mobs, and for longer distance stuff there is always the dashes/teleports to help speed things up.
When you factor in other spells its more like 17 to 18 thousand dps, possibly pushing up to 19 if the stars align and you take the absolute max damage build which provides no support whatsoever and all the buffs/debuffs are in place. That’s still really good though, sub 50% dps won’t be any issue for organised content, its going to be group support requirements that ends up being the sticking point.
Blood magic on its own is lower dps then running soul reaping (although not by much), however blood magic has the only unique group damage modifier in necromancer. As long as your in a group where you can buff at least two other people then blood magic is mandatory since the group dps gain outweighs any personal ones.
Viable just means that they are capable of competing the content, no more or less.
So in groups that are not played optimally necro can be rather effective since they self buff and debuff effectively. A necro can quite easily maintain full might stacks and 15 vulnerability stacks on a champion, so they will almost always perform close to their maximum potential. However, those effects in an optimised group are already covered: PS warrior keeps up aoe might, ele fire fields cover fury, vulnerability has all sorts of proc effects combined with glyph of storms in air means that vulnerability is covered. Once that’s done, classes that provide unique utility (mesmer portal and time warp, warrior banners, spotter/frost spirit) and just plain having greater coefficient per second and damage multipliers end up leaving necromancer behind.
That situation does not happen in most groups, people don’t run the full consumable set so your warrior does not put out as much might, vulnerability application is lacking, and people don’t stack and blast fire fields for fury as much, so for most peoples purposes, necromancer is absolutely fine, especially when you factor in their ability to bail people out of mistakes via transfusion.
While we could do with some more condition modifiers to give us a good pve condition spec, I don’t think spite is the right place for it. The line is already mandatory for all physical specs, and kind of still feels that way even for condition builds, probably should be looking at moving stuff out of spite into other trees before adding more damage modifiers in.
I personally don’t think its even a close comparison between blood and anything else if we are talking about a group environment seeing as blood contains the only unique group support effect in necromancer. When it gets to necros 3+ then its a consideration (aura already covers entire raid), or if the necro is going to be in range of only one or two other players (which would give a high probability of vulnerability and might not being fully stacked).
+100% anything does have major potential to be a problem since you can quite easily end up in a situation where you balance with the trait in mind and the trait is therefor mandatory, or you don’t and then when you do take it things break. Its like lingering curse in necromancer keeping scepter in such a bad spot. I don’t know if druid daze access does push it to that point, if you have to sacrifice too much damage to obtain it there may well not be an issue, but it’s still worth keeping an eye on and preparing a way out, just in case.
There will be an upper bound on the price of shards of glory because they are still in competition with the mystic forge and random drops for obtaining precursors. I can’t say exactly what it will be, but I have serious doubts about the price of shards going over a couple of gold because of it (assuming it is less then five shards per reward) and the cost of the rest of the materials required to make precursors.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAR3Zj8cQtH29B2dAdIWKCMjBwDIAkEE+BPv3hbyN6C-TBBXgAAK/C1N0r+zjSQA-e
Could that work?
Always angry combined with smash brawler means that you only have to get 20 fury in the 10 seconds that it takes for berserk mode to come back up, and using a burst just before berserk mode ends should keep berserker’s power up for all bar a second before you go back into berserk mode.
You do lose out on a hefty dose of sub 50% health precision, a 5% damage modifier, some vulnerability, some bleeds, and the fury from arcing slice in exchange you put out a bit of burning, gain ferocity and a tiny bit of quickness, and maintain some fire fields. In a low fury group that’s going to put base warrior ahead every time, but if someone else is giving out fury then it is possible that the extra damage from being able to do more beserker bursts causes it to pull ahead.
Obviously that is under the assumption that PS warrior is here to stay, and it probably is if only because of Empower Allies is in the same tree. If anything changes to that trait then tactics becomes a lot less attractive.
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Xae, in order to get that dps revs have to swap into shiro, which kills their group support, and running down energy using impossible odds, which gates how long they can sustain it for and means they get less benefit from outside quickness, as well as receiving no benefit from alacrity. Give staff eles or sinister engis quickness and alacrity from a mesmer and they will jump way ahead while the rev only gets a minimal boost.
Its a hammer of whichever rarity your main hand weapon is, so if you have an ascended main its ascended as well.
The only real problem with deathly chill is the opportunity cost associated with not running blighters boon. That’s a lot of potential sustain you miss out on in most builds.
Whats the break even point comparing strength and wurm runes? Already socketed strength in my valk set so its too late for me, but it’s interesting that there may be a niche for them now.
Gravedigger and our auto attacks are easy, just measure how long it takes to proc 30 or so instances of damage. Other stuff is a bit harder, but good recording software combined with chaining the skill in question with an ability that has a known “to damage” time should help.
Dps meters do exist.
There are two broad types out there, the first is a modification that reads the damage values you are putting out from memory, while the others are based around taking screenshots of your combat log and then adding it all up. The latter version has no interaction with the game and would not conflict with the terms of service as they currently stand. I’m sure that with a little bit of work you could rewrite one of them to output a text file of the log.
Anyway, the reason why spreadsheet values are used is because they eliminate variance. Depending on which hits crit if not capped you can have large variances in the dps done, and even when maxed out weapon base is not a fixed number but a band, so between recordings you can have differences in output. You still do live tests, but to get an understanding of the number of skills/skill order that you can reasonably obtain, not the raw numbers your doing.
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Think about what your asking for a moment. If blighters boon did not heal you while you were in shroud, why would the tooltip explicitly make a case for healing you while in shroud, it would simply state “while not in reapers shroud, gain life force when you gain a boon”.
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Not sure, but I think Reaper Shroud AA is bigger DPS than Dagger, everyone is mentioning Greatsword, RS AA has much better DPS than GS.
Ranking currently goes: Deathshroud, Reapers Shroud, Pure Greatsword, Dagger/Horn, Greatsword/Dagger/Horn mix, Gravedigger Spam. There is quite a sizable gap between the shroud builds and the shroudless ones, but in exchange the shroud builds solo stack might and vulnerability, so in “solo” situations they end up pulling ahead of everything bar Gravedigger spam.
Oh yeh, should probably add in the % damage modifiers, going to assume that we are taking blood/spite/reaper.
For above 50% its 1.05, below its 1.26 (remember they multiply), which gives you 1.538 for greatsword above 50, 2.201 for greatsword below 50. Dagger becomes (with wells crudely added) 1.599 above 50 and 1.919 below 50.
For comparision, sub 50% on a fire/air/arcane ele with 3 boons, fireball/lavafont does about 2.168 per seconds. Obviously add in the rest of the rotation/stat conversions/condition procs and it gets better, but gravedigger lets us make up for lower % modifiers with substantially greater base coefficients.
Blood vamp procs add about 100 hp per swing. Dagger swings about once every half second while warhorn procs once every three seconds, so about 2.33 per second, wells push that up to about 2.6 per second. Greatsword is harder because there are more different swing times, but three procs every two seconds is not unreasonable.
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Forum error swallowed post, so will just type out conclusions. Same sort of rough maths as before so don’t go waving it in anyone’s faces as proof.
+ 50% pure greatsword rotation: 1.465 per second
-50% pure greatsword rotation: 1.747 per second
Dagger auto + horn5 (no wells): 1.373 per second
Shroud auto chain: 0.93 per second (which is understandable when you consider that it can solo max might and vulnerability against a lot of things)
Wells add roughly 0.15, so dagger/horn does beat out greatsword over 50% by a bit, so there is probably some sort of optimal dagger/horn/greatsword/shroud rotation that you can do, although you are obviously trading off the utility of a second weapon set for it, so it may not be practical.
BTW, this is a good thing that there is not to great a margin between the two, it means that you can go and fix base necros issues without worrying about sending reaper into overdrive.
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The reason for the difference in +-50% dps rests quite heavily on close to death, above 50% necro has between 1.05 and 1.1025 damage multiplication, while below its 1.26 to1.323, so the difference of gravedigger spam is multiplied. The maths was definitely a hack (watched the video, worked out how much gravedigger was hitting for, then worked out how many casts you get off in a time frame and translated other skills into gravediggers), but that’s because I’m being lazy and know that DnT et Al have better tools and an interest in refining it. Like, i don’t know if they were in full ascended gear, full exotic, a mix, but some numbers at least give us something to talk about.
I’ll have a poke at it tomorrow, got some recordings of the cast times for greatsword auto so should be able to mock up something. On the dagger dps rotation, we can replace the second swing of the chain once every 30 seconds with locust swarm to get a rough guide of its proper output, 1.33*30 is 39.9, drop 0.7 and add in 2 (horn5 hits 10 times, wiki says that it does .2 per hit), gives you 41.2, 41.2/30 is 1.37333 (and so on), so lets say that its 1.37.
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Sub 50% dps is essentially gravedigger spam with the power wells and nightfall threaded in off cooldown since they do close to its damage but on a much shorter cast time, entering into reapers shroud is a dps loss in that situation, the only possible exception could be casting 5 on a sub 25 health target. The approximation was based off of a video from the vale guardian raid, they were running spite/blood/reaper there, and that’s probably whats going to stick, vampiric aura is the only unique group dps boost that necros provide, so while you may take a couple of % hit compared to soul reaping sub 50% the other group members more then make up for it, and the additional sustain could be handy. Not willing to speculate on the rest without running a proper trial, only did the first bit because too many people were chucking round accusations without really providing any evidence either way.
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In one of the other threads I approximated that reaper dps in optimal situations sub 50% mob health comes out to 17.6k (and it is approximate, add a significant margin either side), not done the above 50% calculations yet but i’m expecting it to be between 2/3 and 3/5’s of the sub 50%. I don’t think that dps is going to be too big a deal, but the issue of necros not giving much back to the group that is currently useful (and not filled adequately by a class that is bringing other things alongside it, i know we stack lots of vulnerability and can boon strip, but vulnerability gets passively applied by enough classes that it should be covered, and your already bringing a mesmer or two for alacrity so boon stripping is covered there) is still there. The encounters are not there currently to force the breakup of the current optimal template for group content clearing.
In terms of raw damage output before vulnerability/might, traited axe and lifeblast quite close, however it is possible to load a significant amount of extra might and vulnerability application onto death shroud, and when you do so it pulls ahead significantly.
Looking at current five player content, if your group is not stacking might and vulnerability effectively you will do more damage with a traited shroud build. If the group is already taking care of might and vulnerability application then staying in dagger/x/x is the optimal choice, only flickering into death shroud briefly to proc some traits. If you know that your going to have to range a boss then traiting to buff death shroud is going to be a better choice most of the time because of lower team boon output, but it is not a common situation.
In terms of build, you almost always want spite, the extra might application combined with close to death is a larger damage boost then is obtainable in any other tree.
Yep, the aftercast on gravedigger is almost as long as the cast time itself, which is why there is such a difference between the figures that I put out and the (hit * cast time) value.
It’s not a strictly fair comparison to do a sub 50% rotation on a berserker reaper and a general rabid scrapper rotation. The scrapper is set up as a psudo tank for the boss and is sacrificing offensive stats and traits to make it work, you would expect it to do less dps.
Quick dummy test indicates that gravedigger has a total damage to damage time of two seconds, ish. Assuming that grave digger is always going to hit for 30k (there were 32k hits in the video above, but there were also a decent quantity below, and it makes the maths neater). Also going to assume we are not using soul eater or vampiric wells, because I don’t want to spend all day doing this. Nightfall does roughly the same amount of damage as grave digger, but on a 1/4 second to 1/3 cast (timing that sort of difference is too awkward, going to assume 1/4 second) and a 25 second cd. Well of Corruption does about 2/3s of a gravedigger on a 1/4 second cast and a 40 second cd, while well of suffering does 1.5 of a gravedigger on a 1/4 seconds cast and 35 second cooldown. Three nightfall casts in 75, two corruptions in 80, two sufferings in 70, simplistically going to say that its the equivalent of an extra 7 gravediggers in 70 seconds taking the cast time of only one, so we have 41 grave diggers in 70 seconds.
30*41/70 gives you 17.57, so lets call it 17.6k dps. That should take into account extra procs from our vampiric effects, if you trait for well cooldown you may be able to bump it up a little bit further. Note, that’s under close to optimal conditions sub 50% boss health, which is less then half the fight time. Every time you dodge, you lose out on a gravedigger cast, potentially two, which will tank your dps.
Now someone else go do our above 50% rotation and figure out what sinister engi is ment to put out.
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The stability was handy since you could use it preemptively to stop knockbacks, but don’t mind it this way either.
From pve perspective. Ice is an option if you were considering putting a sigil of frailty on your weapon and were considering running chilling victory. That’s the only ability that needs the extended uptime on chill specifically to work, but with the current state of spite I can’t many, if any, situations which that trait would be more useful then the other options in the tree.
For pvp go nuts, being able to maintain chill uptime through cleanses is really potent.
Ascended Valk/zerker mix is the best choice for pve power reaper outside of a super co-ordinated group in low pressure content. You end up with 20% crit from the gear, combined with decimate defences and vulnerability application you maintain acceptable crit chance while obtaining some more ehp. In low pressure content where your vulnerability application is not required full berzerkers using soul eater (greatsword cdr trait) would be better but your trading all potential survivability and utility in exchange for a marginal dps boost. For condition reaper start off in full sinister and work in carrion until you have enough ehp.
That could all change depending on what in raids though. If there is need for more ehp or armour then cavalier or knights may well be required.
No. those are pvp builds, no reason to take signets of suffering in a pve build currently. The middle one is the one that I’m most curious about, don’t know if its worth losing the extra life force generation and fear from staff which are kind of important, but still worth testing (btw, you forgot to change soul marks on that build, go to unyielding blast instead).
Increase the damage to where it’s needed, but make it scale with close range, so you have to be pretty close to get the full DPS. Like a Mesmer’s GS but in reverse. Gives the damage thats needed for PVE and makes positioning a relevant counter to it.
Did you know that necromancers already have a ranged weapon that gets stronger when closer to the enemy? It’s hidden in a special spot above your weapon bar.
The main concern is that when reaper comes out you will want a backup ranged option for the times when it’s not possible to melee. Currently, lifeblast fills that function, but on reaper that has to fall to an equipped weapon, and pushing axe into that position is better then pushing staff.
It does feel as though something is missing. I mean, none of the changes are bad, the poison cloud change is good in that it now has a potentially useful function and by moving power from lingering curse into baseline scepter you effectively buff condi pvp builds, but it just does not seem quite enough to change anything meaningful.
May be a bit of an “out there” idea, but he and brazil should work together more. Nemesis often comes up with some great points, but then gets bogged down in arguing with everyone, he needs to get someone else to present the points with him (or someone else to do it on his behalf) to tone down some of the silly comments he makes and let people discuss what’s being said rather then who is saying it.
Back on topic, that run is a great baseline and thanks for doing it, but could be optimised further; better gear choices, need to have a look to see if power or condi could do it better (power dummy dps is better but does condi have better uptime in the fight or enable kiting that can’t be done with power?), way fight was executed ment that time was “wasted” on utility skills and healing instead of higher dps options. Still a kitten sight better then I can do though.
Reaper dps is a touch above current necro dps, but it’s still quite a way off from the top specs for current content. Additionally it provides minimal to no group utility regardless of the variant used, and the utility provided can be met by other classes with higher dps.
However, there is a distinct possibility that it won’t matter that much when it comes to raids. It’s easy to take tools that enhance our survival with necro without compromising our damage output, but for other classes that is not the case and they have to trade dps to get buffer ehp, so if the ehp/sustain floor for some raid encounters is set sufficiently high their dps will be pulled down to our level. We don’t have enough information yet to be certain, although a-net is making the right sort of noises so I’m hopeful.
For point one, kind of. The same numbers pop up in the combat log regardless of if you are in death shroud or out, but while in if you take a 2k hit you will only lose 1k life force, so its like having 50% damage reduction.
As for point two, I wish. Sigil of night only works if its actually night, you can’t cheat it. Unless your going to be running night time dungeons/fractals frequently its not worth using because over half the time it has no effect.
Yeh, why are you using a settlers amulet, what makes it better in comparison to clerics (with appropriate swapping of terror and PC of course)?
That out the way, blood fiend is probably not a good idea to run because of how squishy it is even when traited, you frequently end up having your heal stolen from you right at the point when you start to need it. Would strongly recommend you look into replacing it with consume conditions or vamp signet.
Wait a few months and we will have some hard data in the form of black lion chest prices.
Mixed feelings about it as it would then be in competition with weakening shroud, a trait that I really like and try to incorporate into lots of builds, assuming no other changes. Also kind of depends on what your going to put back into soul reaping as its replacement, on the pvp front your running into the soul marks / vital persistence issue so you could end up in a situation where you feel you need to take the trait line but none of the GMs really fit.
I can kind of see it if there was another sweeping trait rework, but just by itself I think it would cause more problems then it fixes.
While it is obvious that maximising dps is going to be key in most situation, I think the point is that we don’t know the constraints that we will need to maximise dps under. Yes, in a situation where other party members are going to be applying buffs and debuffs greatsword will do more damage then reapers shroud, but when they are not available traited reapers shroud pulls ahead. There could also be factors in a fight that force classes away from some of their more damaging trait lines/choices (although I’m not willing to speculate on what those may be), which narrows the gap between what necromancer and other classes can do since we don’t have to make that trade off for the most part. We have a lack of information currently.
It’s not uncommon for condition builds to take spite for the might access that it provides, but the line provides minimal other benefits for conditions outside of signets of suffering. This however caused some issues if you want to make a condition reaper since you were either locked out of curses or spite and took a substantial damage hit because of it. With the buff to the might duration on chilling force do we now have the possibility of obtaining sufficient might to make dropping spite acceptable on non signet builds? It’s only eight seconds base, so your still taking a hit in quantity obtained, but the gap is substantially smaller.
If I was naming a sylvari necro again, would look through irish or welsh mythology for themes and examples.
Carrion does currently exist for accessories, but you are correct in that there are no rings, amulets, or back pieces with that stat makeup, nor any for valkyrie, sentinel and assassin. It would be interesting to know if there is a balance reason behind their absence or if its merely not being implemented yet.