Guild Wars 2

Nick.6972:

Are people just bad or unwilling to learn to play better?

Yes

LilMcGinley.3890:

Renxian.6982:

LilMcGinley.3890:

Rastos.3812:

Angewaire.6319:

Necro vs thief roamer- only viable as a conditionmancer. Any other builds- total fail.
Agree- thieves on WvWvW are “pain in the *”
note: they were first class in spvp to be nerfed. Without reason – You say.
Unless You havnt been hit by 9999 dmg from a thief.

Sorry, I had to log in just to reply to this, I have to disagree, I play a Hybrid Necro, Pwr/Cond and seriously have no problem with thieves. I don’t even have to carry a staff. It’s so simple, once they start in on you just drop some wells. Thieves are squishy, and if the well bombs don’t kill them, the remaining conditions will while they are trying to get away. Remember they can only cleanse one cond every three seconds if spec’d for it, if memory serves correctly. Plus, hit a Thief with Fear and he doesn’t haven’t a stun break, well it’s pretty much good night. I also have a Lvl 80 Thief that I have done a lot of WvW with. I don’t like the gimmicky play style which is why I stick with my Necro. But as most of the other posters have said, Thieves generally are bad players. Spamming a few buttons and hoping you drop. I will however say Thieves for getting around the world and map completion, nothing beats it. Mine doesn’t even leave LA anymore, just stays there and does my cooking for me. I used to love my thief, but now that WvW is what appeals to me more he had to retire. Cheers.

Pretty much this. I don’t play my necro in WvW, only sPvP, but when I see a thief I know I can light them up with some burning/bleeds and it’s pretty much game over. They will either run or die. Yes, their condi cleanse is in stealth (1 condi/3s).

That isn’t completely true. HiS can clear like three conditions straight up, and then you get I think two more over it’s duration from the trait. If they aren’t carrying HiS as their heal though then you are correct.

A necro can throw more than 5 conditions on a target really fast, not to mention HiS only clears “Cures burning, poison, and bleeding”.. all others are still ticking away. HiS would give you those 3 + 1 for being invis for 3s. Signet of Spite is 6, 2 of which auto cleared and 1 thru the 3s duration, leaving Cripple, Blindness, Chill, Weakness for them to deal with. If I was a thief and got hit with that, I’d prolly just run away.

But yeah, there are other ways to condi cleanse as a thief, such as Shadow Step and Roll for Init, can also trait in Acrob and Shadow for additional but it is a class that lacks reliable, consistent condition removal.

No. It’s 3+1 on initial stealth and 1 three seconds after that from my experience. That’s why Shadow Refuge is so good for condition wiping. I have yet to run into a class that can load enough conditions to kill me straight up assuming I am not stunned or in some way prevented from using skills.

That said, we absolutely need to blow utilities to counter heavy condition loading from classes like engineer and necro. Also as said before, best defense against a thief, as you demonstrated, is making the fight too difficult or dangerous to be bothered. From my personal perspective, I will generally ignore ANY character that can repeatedly re-apply chill to me. Chill is absolutely the most obnoxious condition in the game because it screws you in about 5 different ways.

No we cannot cleanse revealed. The trap may be broken again, it was a few weeks ago. Seems like everything is glitchy lately though.

Handin.4032:

All you thieves out there now know what it felt like to be a mesmer back before the confusion nerf, or before the portal nerf Just take your beatings, hope anet doesn’t wack your class in the nuts with the nerf-bat like confusion, and just move on From personal experience, posting on these threads saying your class is perfectly balanced isn’t exactly making anything better, eh? :P

Except we don’t punish all classes in a massive area with brutal damage for doing all actions offensive or defense except movement. While I agree confusion got whacked too hard, you know kitten well it was OP af in WvW group fights pre nerf. Making an entire zerg choose between being a spectator or killing themselves through action while they simultaneously attempt to survive AND deal with your entire team is pretty obviously over the top. There was no skill level at which confusion Mesmer wasn’t crazy powerful.

I do however think a 50% damage reduction was way too drastic a first step. That takes a lot for me to say too, because I freaking HATE mesmers.

Terrahero.9358:

Renxian.6982:

Terrahero.9358:

Renxian.6982:

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots).

No they dont! This is flat out a lie.

They can pick up both Shadow’s Rejuv. (healing in stealth) aswell as Shadow Embrace (cure cond. every 3sec in stealth, ticks the moment you enter stealth), or choose blind on stealth instead of either of these two.
You would still be able to pick up more then enough Initiative Regeneration to perma-stealth.

infact the only thing needed to get perma-stealth is 10pts in Shadow Arts for Infusion of Shadows, and 20points into Acrobatics for 2initiative regen every 10sec. Pick up Infiltrator’s Signet, which also works as a great escape skill/stunbreaker.

And presto you got all the initiative regen you need to perma-stealth with Dagger/Pistol.
Aswell as 40 unused Traitpoints, 2 open skillslots, and 1 major trait in Acrobatics you havent picked yet. (Most get Stealth when taking falling damage for this trait slot, could also get 50% speed while in stealth.)

I know all the combinations to achieve perma stealth (and there is at least 1 more that I can think of off the top of my head). All of them have sacrifices.

Those 40 remaining trait points and burned utility slot would mean you are giving up some of the following.

Critical Damage, Critical Chance, Toughness, Healing Power, Increased Damage when initiative is over 6, Hidden Killer (100% crit on attacks from stealth), Executioner (Increased Damage to targets sub 50% hp), Shadow’s Rejuvenation (healing while stealthed), Shadow’s Embrace (condition removal in stealth), Cloaked in Shadow (Stealthing Blinds Nearby Enemies), Signet of Shadows (25% MS) or a utility skill (Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Shadowstep).

At the low low cost of a big chunk of your utility/synergy, you too can troll stupid people!

Big list, untill it becomes clear enough you can still get most of the stuff in that list. Executioner and Hidden killer are mutually exclusive anyway.
You make it almost sound like you could get all those things. Even if you dont spec for perma-stealth you’re going to have to choose between those things on your list…

Also you’re overplaying the Blind on Stealth thing a bit. Great for d/d since you get into Stealth near enemies. Great to mitigate their next swing, or attempt at CC.
But for D/P you leap through a smokefield, generally AWAY from enemies. Far less usefull trait because its not as neccesary.

The REAL cost is 2 major traitslots and 1 skillslot. One of them going down a traitline that is extremely useful anyway, its where the condition removal and healing in stealth is, aswell as extented stealth duration. And the many stacks of Might from spamming Stealth so much.

You can get enough initiative regen to still have plenty of traitpoints and skillslots left to pick up both damage and survivability. Its a build that still hits very hard, and can pretty much not die.

With the exception of the two Grandmaster traits that are mutually exclusive I actually CAN get all of those other things at the same time.

Hence me listing them as things you would have to give up.

The extra 10 points you are suggesting in acro have to come from somewhere. you are either sacrificing toughness, healing power, cloaked in shadow or shadow’s embrace, and Shadow Rejuvenation in SA or Precision, Crit Damage, and Hidden Killer/Executioner in Critical Strikes. I understand that you feel thieves should give up more for the build, but you should at least have all information on hand before calling others liars.

The blind on stealth is great even for D/P (which is what I run) Blind fields in general are great up close, and SR being a big pulsing blind is incredibly useful. It’s also handy when say, I stealth to wipe conditions like immobilize, which are often applied in melee range.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Rastos.3812:

Angewaire.6319:

Necro vs thief roamer- only viable as a conditionmancer. Any other builds- total fail.
Agree- thieves on WvWvW are “pain in the *”
note: they were first class in spvp to be nerfed. Without reason – You say.
Unless You havnt been hit by 9999 dmg from a thief.

Sorry, I had to log in just to reply to this, I have to disagree, I play a Hybrid Necro, Pwr/Cond and seriously have no problem with thieves. I don’t even have to carry a staff. It’s so simple, once they start in on you just drop some wells. Thieves are squishy, and if the well bombs don’t kill them, the remaining conditions will while they are trying to get away. Remember they can only cleanse one cond every three seconds if spec’d for it, if memory serves correctly. Plus, hit a Thief with Fear and he doesn’t haven’t a stun break, well it’s pretty much good night. I also have a Lvl 80 Thief that I have done a lot of WvW with. I don’t like the gimmicky play style which is why I stick with my Necro. But as most of the other posters have said, Thieves generally are bad players. Spamming a few buttons and hoping you drop. I will however say Thieves for getting around the world and map completion, nothing beats it. Mine doesn’t even leave LA anymore, just stays there and does my cooking for me. I used to love my thief, but now that WvW is what appeals to me more he had to retire. Cheers.

Pretty much this. I don’t play my necro in WvW, only sPvP, but when I see a thief I know I can light them up with some burning/bleeds and it’s pretty much game over. They will either run or die. Yes, their condi cleanse is in stealth (1 condi/3s).

That isn’t completely true. HiS can clear like three conditions straight up, and then you get I think two more over it’s duration from the trait. If they aren’t carrying HiS as their heal though then you are correct.

Burnfall.9573:

Xirin.8593:

Burnfall posts stuff like this in every Thief thread. Just ignore him.

For anyone who played EverQuest 1, he is the Battleblade of GW2.

I hold you Accountable for Lying and Deception.

I Encouage you to post my threads/post of “:]Burnfall posts stuff like this in every Thief thread” in the post, so everyone in the community can see.

Otherwise,

I’ll take that as a Joke.

Oh there is a joke here alright. Your post history for example.

Haltair.3062:

Last day I was runing with two recruits. Three thieves roaming in enemy field.
Suddenly an enemy thief appeared in our back and killed one of the recruits. Then he tried to kill me and he couldn’t due to my knowledge of the stealths. The remaining recruit and I tried to kill him, but we couldn’t, he was frankly skilful and managed the rythm of the fight frankly well. Two thieves against one and we couldn’t beat him.
Was this due to stealth or was due to a skilful fighter?
We had some more stealth options than him.
Now let’s imagine that all the people who qq here has been stomped by one or several skilful thieves. It could seem that it is almost impossible to beat due to stealth. In fact you were fighting against above average players.
Perhaps I should start complaining about stealth, or perhaps I should congratulate an skilful thief.

Best,

Haltair

See, in your example, the thief is clearly OP.

• Trollface *

Blackhat.4016:

Hello everyone,

I recently started playing GW2 again after a break. I used to play s/tPvP with pretty much any profession which means I do understand the basic mechanics.

Anyway, WvW is more fun for me now and I would like to find a good roaming (solo or small group) profession. I already have my ele for big zerg fights but a 2nd char for that would be nice as well. I know eles can roam too but I played enough S/D and D/D for the next few months.

Here is a short version of what I’m looking for:

• close range combat (I simply like it because it’s a nice change coming from a staff ele)
• good 1v1 (1vX is no necessity)
• something unique
• fast in and out of combat
• (somewhat decent in zergs)
• (not heavily condition based)

Here are the 3 professions I’m currently thinking of:

Thief:

• melee
• good 1v1 and 1vX
• stealth (unique)
• extremely high mobility
• zerg fights?

Mesmer:

• melee still good?
• good 1v1 (1vX?)
• Illusions and Portals (unique)
• good in combat mobility, ooc mobility?
• zerg fights (I know Portal and Time Warp are really strong but besides that?)

Guardian

• melee?
• good 1v1 (1vX?)
• Consecrations, Symbols, Wards (how good are they in small fights though?)
• mobility?
• good in zerg fights

As you can see I have a lot of questions (bold characters) and I’m hoping more experienced WvW players are able to answer them.

Please let me know which profession you think fits me best since I can’t decide. They all look good but I’m sure one of them might be better for that role.

Thief:

Mainly functions as a blast finisher in zerg fights. Our kit has 0 options to attack targets over 900 range, and one of our two ranged options are terrible. Thieves don’t have a lot of natural tankiness or mitigation skills, so it can be rough being in the thick of the zerg.

Mesmer:

Portal, Timewarp, Null Field, the mass stealth, and even post nerf into the void are all strong in group combat (and don’t they have a large projectile reflect too or am I thinking of something else?), mesmers in general are pretty good in all aspects of the game. Their out of combat mobility is generally viewed as pretty meh though (they are slow)

Guardian:
Bar none the most desired class in all aspects of the game. They are good in small groups and zergs.

There are solo guardians out there, and they can be quite terrifying 1v1. That said, other than swiftness they don’t have much overall mobility so they are very vulnerable to classes that can reset a lot. As a solo roamer, I win most fights against guardians by simply poking them endlessly over time and ducking in and out of their range.

Terrahero.9358:

Renxian.6982:

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots).

No they dont! This is flat out a lie.

They can pick up both Shadow’s Rejuv. (healing in stealth) aswell as Shadow Embrace (cure cond. every 3sec in stealth, ticks the moment you enter stealth), or choose blind on stealth instead of either of these two.
You would still be able to pick up more then enough Initiative Regeneration to perma-stealth.

infact the only thing needed to get perma-stealth is 10pts in Shadow Arts for Infusion of Shadows, and 20points into Acrobatics for 2initiative regen every 10sec. Pick up Infiltrator’s Signet, which also works as a great escape skill/stunbreaker.

And presto you got all the initiative regen you need to perma-stealth with Dagger/Pistol.
Aswell as 40 unused Traitpoints, 2 open skillslots, and 1 major trait in Acrobatics you havent picked yet. (Most get Stealth when taking falling damage for this trait slot, could also get 50% speed while in stealth.)

I know all the combinations to achieve perma stealth (and there is at least 1 more that I can think of off the top of my head). All of them have sacrifices.

Those 40 remaining trait points and burned utility slot would mean you are giving up some of the following.

Critical Damage, Critical Chance, Toughness, Healing Power, Increased Damage when initiative is over 6, Hidden Killer (100% crit on attacks from stealth), Executioner (Increased Damage to targets sub 50% hp), Shadow’s Rejuvenation (healing while stealthed), Shadow’s Embrace (condition removal in stealth), Cloaked in Shadow (Stealthing Blinds Nearby Enemies), Signet of Shadows (25% MS) or a utility skill (Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Shadowstep).

At the low low cost of a big chunk of your utility/synergy, you too can troll stupid people!

Atherakhia.4086:

Renxian.6982:

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand the complaint. While I do find stealth to be powerful, it doesn’t elevate the Thief class above Rangers, Elementalists, Guardians, or Mesmers in overall roaming power as I consider each to be equally powerful.

I honestly have no problem with perma stealth in this game or any other as most games with a stealthing class actually do have perma stealth. Now clearly in this game it’s one of those things that probably wasn’t planned, but my only complaint with perma stealth the way it’s implemented in this game is really the fact that it doesn’t trade off any real damage for all the added utility perma stealth provides.

Earlier in the thread I half-heatedly mentioned replacing the leap finisher as that’s the lazy man’s choice to resolve this issue. The root of the problem is very clearly the iniatitive regen system in this game though.

But I’m concerned that a lot of people who argue for nerfing things like weapon synergy for a class simply aren’t experienced enough with the class to fully comprehend just how far reaching their changes could end up being.

Initiative regen needs to be fixed, but I’m not stupid enough to think they can do it without dramatic improvements elsewhere. It’s the same with adjusting just the stealth aspect of the class. This class is not built very well and stealth is so powerful that it hides the legitimate issues with this class.

To nerf one would need enormous buffs in other areas.

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots). Dropping all that utility for misdirection and the simple fact that instead of simply moving erratically and leaving people feel the need to blow every cooldown they have trying to hit a thief that is doing 0 damage.

No one is denying that stealth is inherently powerful, but it’s not the end all be all of wvw roaming and it’s not even the easiest way to reset a fight. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it’s all of lvl 35. If anything my ranger is better at it because it a can tank a ton of damage and regen mid fight on top of being able to reset at will. Hell I play my ranger the same way I play my thief. Dip in and out, reset till I win.

Oh I know there are trade offs, I’m just saying they aren’t enough The typical 0/30/30/10 build has the regen capable of perma stealthing and is extremely strong. You’d expect the class when trading CnD for 5 init in favor of needing to BP+HS for 7 would sacrifice more damage then it does. My argument is that it should, but the reason it doesn’t is because initiative regen isn’t properly balanced for the class as a whole regardless of spec.

But like I said, I’m not stupid enough to think you can adjust skills and traits to remove the initiative regen and expect the class to still be playable without dramatic improvements elsewhere. I just don’t want to see knee jerk changes to player complaints when all that will do is move them over to the next thing to complain about instead of just resolving the root problem.

I certainly appreciate that you are at least objective in regards to the thief class, most people simply put on the tinfoil hats and claim we should be destroyed completely. I don’t necessarily agree with your viewpoint that there isn’t enough sacrifice for the stealth heavy builds (which I don’t even run because I refuse to give up the utility and survivability the other traits give me). On a low health pool class giving up a chunk of condi removal or health regen is a huge sacrifice. I don’t think the tradeoff was meant to be damage personally (and they still give up some damage). They are also extremely BS reliant because their entire build is centered around not being targetable. With less condition cleanse or hp regen or blinds they rely almost entirely on not being seen, which means less use of non stealth-field utility weapon skills.

Plus we’d probably be more receptive if ANET would fix all the things they have broken while nerfing us. Steal/Shadowstep/Infiltrators arrow/ Sword 2 skill all behave erratically, sometimes going on cd/burning initiative without moving you at all. The weird pre-cast delay many thieves have noticed since the big balance patch (imagine skill lag except…always) causing skills to sometimes cast painfully slowly. Or the newest, and my personal favorite, sometimes our stealth skills the two it’s been specifically mentioned for are CnD and SR, will simply give you revealed (QQers dream here) for no reason at all (and no I don’t mean getting knocked out of SR or attacking etc).

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand the complaint. While I do find stealth to be powerful, it doesn’t elevate the Thief class above Rangers, Elementalists, Guardians, or Mesmers in overall roaming power as I consider each to be equally powerful.

I honestly have no problem with perma stealth in this game or any other as most games with a stealthing class actually do have perma stealth. Now clearly in this game it’s one of those things that probably wasn’t planned, but my only complaint with perma stealth the way it’s implemented in this game is really the fact that it doesn’t trade off any real damage for all the added utility perma stealth provides.

Earlier in the thread I half-heatedly mentioned replacing the leap finisher as that’s the lazy man’s choice to resolve this issue. The root of the problem is very clearly the iniatitive regen system in this game though.

But I’m concerned that a lot of people who argue for nerfing things like weapon synergy for a class simply aren’t experienced enough with the class to fully comprehend just how far reaching their changes could end up being.

Initiative regen needs to be fixed, but I’m not stupid enough to think they can do it without dramatic improvements elsewhere. It’s the same with adjusting just the stealth aspect of the class. This class is not built very well and stealth is so powerful that it hides the legitimate issues with this class.

To nerf one would need enormous buffs in other areas.

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots). Dropping all that utility for misdirection and the simple fact that instead of simply moving erratically and leaving people feel the need to blow every cooldown they have trying to hit a thief that is doing 0 damage.

No one is denying that stealth is inherently powerful, but it’s not the end all be all of wvw roaming and it’s not even the easiest way to reset a fight. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it’s all of lvl 35. If anything my ranger is better at it because it a can tank a ton of damage and regen mid fight on top of being able to reset at will. Hell I play my ranger the same way I play my thief. Dip in and out, reset till I win.

TheGuy.3568:

Renxian.6982:

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Obviously stealth is the only mechanic in game that makes targets hard to kill, and only thieves have said mechanic. Please tell me about how super hard it is to play a guardian, warrior, or necro.

Naw, you just didn’t read what I wrote. That’s cool. Most thieves are so upset over being called Op where they are Op that they focus on that and do not read the rest. You even skipped the guardian, DD ele, Mesmer thing. I get it. I really do, but if you are going to quote me then read what I have to say. If not do not waist your time. Post like yours just reinforce the fact that most thieves are, “bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs” (as you put it) who lack scope. Re read my other post if you want to respond not in the mood for the back and forth bs that tends to go on here. I broke it down how it is that is all.

I read your whole post, including the backwards shot at D/D ele’s. That doesn’t really make your post less stupid to me. D/D eles , much like thieves, aren’t overpowered. They have very specific strengths. The only difference is ele’s excel in a much wider range of situations. Guardians I have mixed feelings about, but they generally win through simple attrition, they will just outlast you. Mesmers I cannot be objective about because I despise them. Having a unique strength or advantage is not overpowered.

All the tongue in cheek crying in the world won’t change that fact.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Jalad Lantana.3027:

I don’t see what the attraction is for some arbitrary group vs group combat scenarios.

It sounds like a weird no mans land somewhere between WvW and team spvp.

It does not interest me, but I thought there were places already established where players can congregate for duels and fixed group vs group play on and ad hoc basis.

Other games base their large scale PVP on different size ‘sides’, but Arenanet decided to go with world versus world, so that is what we have.

The interest & attraction is from people who want to get better at the game for themselves and for their guild, rather than win via scoring points or having off-hour coverage. Believe it or not, people like to actually kill people in PvP, not siege a keep for 5 hours.

It’s a straight-up test of skill. No siege to use, no walls to hid behind, it’s your best 15 vs my best 15. Winner take all.

So in otherwords, an kitten measuring contest.

pullnointer.1476:

Spiral Architect.6540:

What I’d like to see: all characters, upon reaching xx level (40? 60? 80? dunno…), can complete a quest to get a permanent 25% speed boost added to their run speed. No signets, no weapon usage, no sigils required. That would be fair.

no.

Compelling argument.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

I just want a Necro with a Greatsword ;_;

I want P/P thief to be…good.

Also dual sword thief seems like it would be fun as hell.

Guardian. Although warrior can be very tanky too. What gear are you running that you die fast 0.o

Spiral Architect.6540:

What I’d like to see: all characters, upon reaching xx level (40? 60? 80? dunno…), can complete a quest to get a permanent 25% speed boost added to their run speed. No signets, no weapon usage, no sigils required. That would be fair.

I like this. since my class has trash access to swiftness, being shoehorned into wearing that stupid signet kitten es me off.

Dirge.1250:

I still think Anet should just make lvl 80’s fully naked and only have a stick as a weapon (where we can customise its colour) thats it!

I bet all u troll will still qq about sum1 being op coz they hit to hard with the stick bahahaaha..

Nope. They would QQ about lack of “variety” because “all the classes play the same and use the same weapons and skills”.

Travlane.5948:

no its either a game lag issue or a stealth issue….i am not walking out of friendly refuges or anything like that. im talking str8 up hittingwith CND and it not invising me or buff stealth showing up. somtimes i hit CND and go right to reveal without even using another skill.

I had that happen with Shadow Refuge actually.

I sat in it for full duration, the refuge disappeared, I took one step and got revealed debuff.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Conversely, some PvPers need to stop being a bunch of elitist, self absorbed jerkwads. I can only assume that the majority of the people who PvP are not like that, but if so, then the minority that are, are the loudest, most obnoxious bunch of griefers out there who get off making others feel worthless and making dang sure that everyone they come across knows just how big their little kittens are…

The dumbest voices are almost always the loudest. In video games and in real life.

I’ve noticed a lot of pre-cast delay in my weapon skills for my thief in general since the last major patch.

It seems we get glitchier every patch.

Master of Timespace.2548:

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Expressing the truth in a sarcastic manner doesn’t make it any less real.

Unfortunately I can’t express the truth in regards to you and people like you because I would get yet another infraction.

TheGuy.3568:

You really only have one choice and that is to accept that thieves are thieves. A class like this should have never even made it into the game (both for its’ short comings and OP features), but it is too late now. Complaining for a year has amounted to a hill of nerfs most pointless or making under utilized skills UP (see pistol whip, dancing daggers, cluster bomb, PD thief condition variety, underwater combat, caltrops and AOE). Fact is as of this moment thief stealth is out of hand and there are no plans to change this.

However, if you roam with a zerg this issue means little to nothing to you. A thief in zerg is a class that does very little DPS at range and is semi useless to zerg. You may say on demand blast finishers what have you but fact is in a zerg a hammer warrior, guardian, even a nades engineer is infinitely more useful. Lets not forget about keep defense and taking keeps. A good mesmer, necro, staff ele, and those mentioned above will be more useful. A thief may chose to debate. That thief will be wrong. This is nigh absolute (there are cases where a thief stealthing a mesmer into deeper parts of a keep cna help a portal “bomb”).

What we are talking about here is solo and small group roaming. Where a class with superior mobility and gap closing skills also has stealth which in many 0 30 30 10 0 builds give you access to a stupid amount of both burst DPS and healing. While not giving up your get out of jail free cards.

To any thieves who feel they can get fancy quips off I have to ask do you realize the class you play? Much like DD ele (once upon a time), mesmer, and guardian you play a class that duels well. Among all the classes in WvW not only do you duel well but you roam well. No matter how skilled you think you are or leet you do play a class that relies on a crutch to get wins. There is no skill to it. You may dig at other players for dying to thieves but truth is in many cases there is no other choice. It is not a skill issue its a mechanics gakitten ue. No one is going to fix it. Stealth has been deemed nigh untouchable by the devs. While you revel in the fact and pick off classes that can not deal with you remember. As one of the skilled players of this game you jumped on the bandwagon class and actually tried to brag and put other players down. there is no counter for a “good” thief. They will always pull off a win or push a draw.

I said my piece.

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Obviously stealth is the only mechanic in game that makes targets hard to kill, and only thieves have said mechanic. Please tell me about how super hard it is to play a guardian, warrior, or necro.

What if ascended gear is only craftable and you have to run instances or pvp/wvw to get the mats instead of the gear itself.

Considering the current time-gating with asc/legendary gear, I don’t forsee exotics suddenly becoming worthless.

Killing people appeals to me and this game has numerous avenues for destroying lesser ninjas.

naphack.9346:

Only Trinkets.
Why would you wat it in any other slot anyway?
It’s great as trinket, but anywhere else, theres simply better options.

Options. Would be interesting to have more options that still synergize with my build.

Thanks for the replies btw, I couldn’t find it in a search of the forums so I appreciate the help

Rama.6439:

SquirtyMagoo.8321:

neomccoy.2657:

Had fun tonight in FABL vs RET/RAM coordinated attacks.

Here is the video of this match-up so far, unbiased view since i kept the parts that we got wiped. Enjoy Keep up the great fights FA!!! Hoping to see SoS more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0AiK23TArQ

Yeh thanks to RET and RAM (RETAM? RAMET? There’s gotta be a name for you guys…) for the open field fights. They were a lot of fun! You guys are working really well together considering how recently RAM transferred. FABL is definitely the place to be for good fights this matchup.

Also, I freaking love the TC militia. I don’t think there is another militia in gw2 you could fight vs 2 organized guilds with and still have a good fight. Amazing watching that vid and seeing lots of them stick on the commander even when they aren’t on voice comms.

This matchup has been way better than DB in terms of open field.

I totally agree, I expected more from DB and they just hid all week, EB put up a better fight then DB and I was totally amazed by that, I give EB props for that, I hope we don’t see DB for awhile cause if they don’t even want to fight, why bother.

And as far as FA and SoS, I like the open field stuff, it’s great, but when doing the open field, why do you all always drop siege, you talk about us hiding behind our towers and siege, everytime we do open field, you guys always drop something, that isn’t open field, if you want to do open field, leave the siege in the towers and keeps.

We didn’t drop siege when we took on TC and SoS in SoS garri (and won) the other day

Considering that your server drops more open field arrow carts than anyone I’ve ever seen, perhaps the pot should stop calling the kettle black.

Amun Ra.6435:

Archon.6481:

Amun Ra.6435:

Zacchary.6183:

Ensign.2189:

Mesmer / Engineer / Necromancer are the best in the competent bracket, depending on what you’re trying to accomplish.

Very good Thieves dominate the total kitten bracket.

Fixed it for you.

You kidding? Was in WvW the other night…the thief didn’t need to busrt from stealth mind you…so here is what happened…

Was trying to get to the zerg for my daily kills…theif popped from stealth in front of me and just spammed that stupid easy flipping like a monkey skill and hit me for 7k/6k/4k then dodged and got hit for another 3k….all in a matter of 2 or 3 seconds.
How does that make a thief….“very good”?

Either wearing armor when you go into combat, or not exaggerating damage will help.

My list:
Thief
Mesmer
Ranger
Ele
Guardian
Engie
Necro
Warrior

Just noticed your tag…can deny all you want but there is no skill involved in pressing a single key over and over and over and over and….well….

Seeing as heartseeker has very low damage when you have full health, unless you were a naked elementalist you probably aren’t going to die from HS spam. If you did die from HS spam, then it’s moot because you would have died from a single backstab combo anyway…or literally any combo from any class.

Luckily for us thieves we can take all ini regen traits in all trees all at the same time…oh wait.

Also, did I read that you are a D/D ele? You are complaining that a thief can 1vX cause invisible on a class that can 1vX because unkillable. “No other class can do that” Ok pumpkin.

Topic title basically, is there such a thing as Cavalier gear? Or is it only trinkets and the fractal backpiece?

This system is god awful. Your “solutions” don’t actually make any sense.

Forcing us to remain stationary for stealth, destroying the weaponsets, 10 second reveal for being mobile while stealth ends? 10 second reveal for moving at all with “stationary stealth” We all know how long statues survive in pvp afterall.

What were you trying to achieve? Just permanently destroy the class?

PinCushion.7390:

If I’m solo, as in not running with a party, then I’m probably dead. But why would I be soloing with a Staff?

This right here makes you smarter than 99% of the thief whiners.

“I was running my zergling whatever build and soloing for no sensible reason and died to a roamer with a duelist build OP NERF!!!111” is like the most common thing I see from most of them.

lunyboy.8672:

Renxian.6982:

Abrilete.1439:

Fenrir.6183:

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Many skills require target to hit. If you can’t target the stealthed oponent, you can’t damage/CC him. As I see it, that prevents damage and CC. A lot.

Sure, and a large amount of skills and all basic attacks can be used without a target. I guess cherry picking examples is cool too though.

Completely not true. Any ranged skills with the exception of ground targeted AoEs are required to have a target. Additionally, when we use skills to block a thief that is invisible, that does not trigger the revealed condition.

In other words, stealth until you actually hit us. And if you are behind us when you decide to use your backstab, our melee wouldn’t be hitting you anyway if we were swinging wildly in what we thought was your direction.

So it isn’t just no targeting, it is also combat status that can’t be observed, while the devs tell my profession that I can’t perma hide my kit back packs (hobo sacks) because they are the only thing that tell opponents what weapons/tools I am using; thieves not only get to clear the target, the called target and leave combat, but also get to watch our status (are we blocking? are we swapping to another weapon set?) and while they are resetting the fight can wait to isolate one of us to grief some more.

I don’t mind that they excel at 1v1 and certain jobs are built for thieves, it is the mentality that the class attracts sometimes that makes it more frustrating.

The mentality of people who fight against thieves is just as frustrating. Seeing threads every day where people act like thieves are permanently invisible guardians with a million damage unblockable nuke.

Resetting the fight is stupidly easy on several classes. Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Even Warrior can do it. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it only lvl 21. Any class with access to solid mobility skills can reset. Ranger and Warrior have really low cds on mobility skills that allow for resetting if done right. The only difference is that the thief mobility skills are less susceptible to immobilize due to how shadow step works. Admittedly this is powerful, but dodging in and out of fights isn’t unique to thieves. People just get annoyed because thieves tend to be dedicated roamers and are far more likely to return and try to kill you again. I understand that that is ANNOYING but it is not inherently overpowered.

Every thief spec is different. The highest stealth uptime builds come at the cost of other stats, whether that be damage or condition clearing or whatever, because they need initiative regen.

Those thieves running instagib combo builds sacrifice a ton for raw damage. (Examples include giving up the SA traitline, which has all those stealth regen effects, and sometimes their utility slots for signets to take advantage of the signets of power trait).

We’re really not different than other classes, everything we do comes with choices. People just don’t want to see that.

JaNordy.6149:

Renxian.6982:

JaNordy.6149:

Renxian.6982:

JaNordy.6149:

Haltair.3062:

Great. Another stealth thread.
Could any moderator take a look on these repeated threads?

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve shadows

Ever stop and think, that there are so many thief threads because anet refuses to do anything about them? I recently dueled a condition thief, something you rarely see. When he would stealth he would do his rapid sneak attack stack ton of bleed move. I was able to block it several times. What was my reward for perfectly timing it? Him still being stealth to do it all over again instantly everytime with no revealed or initiative lost. Clearly working as intended…

Regards,

JaNordy – One of the 6 CAMP

Just throwing it out there, but a P/D condi thief has to cloak and dagger you to stealth, unless he blows utils. So unless your “Perfect Timing” involves you allowing him to poke you in the kitten with his dagger every 3-4 seconds, you probably aren’t being particularly honest with us.

So rather than argue about a design flaw I pointed out in game, you blindly resort to the “its you” post. My timing was indeed perfect for what I stated. You have no clue how long duel I had with this thief was. He did CnD me many times as we fought, he also missed many times as well. You have completely failed to make a point in what I stated about block and sneak attack. You can tell when someone has no argument when they state “you are not being honest” as their argument.

One love,

JaNordy- One of the 6 CAMP

My point, since you are missing it, is that you failed to dodge or block the important part of the combo, which you can see coming because he has to practically caress you to land it. It doesn’t matter how long you were fighting because attrition is the absolute worst way to kill anything and a condition thief is pretty much 100% attrition damage. Attrition damage takes so stupidly long to take anyone with health it still amazes me that people actually die to condi thieves. They can’t even condition load you, they are just stacking bleed.

P/D condition thief also has the worst escapes and worst utility of any of the viable thief sets.

How in the world did you both fail to kill him AND allow him to stack enough bleeds to actually be dangerous.

You still have not answered the stealth reveal I pointed out. All you talk about is how “bad” people must be to die to thiefs and CnD, ignoring the fact how many times it can be used in long fight. You wont ever dodge it all which ends up making “block CnD” a completely moot point and if anything points for an even harder nerf on that which you clearly wouldnt want. Guess it is too much to expect of someone basic comprehension. Unless you are a troll with seems likely as you cant read. I await your 3rd reply that will in no way address the stealth reveal issue I pointed out… again.

Alta Vista,.

JaNordy – One of 6 CaMP

I unfortunately cannot help you. I said much earlier in the thread that revealed on block wouldn’t offend me too much, assuming uptime on certain kind of blocks, especially aegis, was reduced. I’m happy that you feel you are somehow making a pro debate, but you should at least read everything I say.

Regardless, you wasted your blocks on an AA chain that has no CD instead of the initiative heavy stealth granting ability. Or apparently you were fighting standing in a field of mobs your own siege, and random doors.

This is why thieves get kitten y in threads like this, because people come and whine about dying to things that are often simply terrible decisions on their part. It seems the general consensus is that we are supposed to just roll over and die for you 100% of the time and if we don’t we must need a nerf.

kishter.9578:

Waffler.1257:

How do you lose to a thief on a necro? Necros melt thieves in 3 seconds, I don’t even play my necro anymore because of how easy it is.

27,416 of damage and i dot even have to react, GG, The battle was a totally balance, but to the thief side—-
how can you fight something that can burst you in 2 sec and IF you have time to react they “PUFF” thanks to the great, incredible and only mechanic in any ever MMORGP -stealth as will-

OK im done whit this, hey thief around T1-when you see my necro “khasastra” just jump on me i will stand still, dont worry about me if you win is ok, if im winning you will stealth and return back until im dead, lest make this easy just kill me. I will be Akitten that way i wont rage when you kill me because this mechanic.

GG

edit: filter A-F-K?

I have roughly the same armor as you in a full berserker set….

Abrilete.1439:

Fenrir.6183:

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Many skills require target to hit. If you can’t target the stealthed oponent, you can’t damage/CC him. As I see it, that prevents damage and CC. A lot.

Sure, and a large amount of skills and all basic attacks can be used without a target. I guess cherry picking examples is cool too though.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Renxian.6982:

What’s the rest of your server doing?

Dungeons, fractals, dragons, falling to their deaths from flying boats…

There is actually a lot more to this game than WvW, and a lot of people don’t like our part of the game, just like I detest jumping puzzles.

I’m not going to apologize for the fact that many don’t play WvW, but it seriously sucks when the people leaving are the biggest groups, and best commanders, and all at the same time…

Not asking you to apologize, but if you are a WvW lover on a PVE server, you may want to consider going to a server that loves WvW like you do.

Burnfall.9573:

Renxian

Once and for all,
Stealth is the Problem factor, not I.

As long Arena net plays Favoritism, thing will happen to Thief Stealth; “due to classes like this”

No it really is you, and players like you.

I kill stealth heavy thieves constantly. I do it on my thief, I do it on my lvl 21 ranger, and I am confident I could do it on any other character I pickup. The fact that you and a small subset of very loud individuals cannot find it in yourselves to do anything other than give away loot bags and cry constantly about how you lost to a class specifically designed for the purpose of ambushing the unaware is not the class’s fault.

The fact that thief damage, mobility, deception come at a cost in utility and survivability is completely lost on you because you apparently insist on wandering around alone with a stab me sign on. Pretending to be a statue and engaging thieves solo in open field is playing to the strengths of the class.

Or do you play a boon stacking guardian and try to solo boon hate necros too?

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Renxian.6982:

Is your entire server in those three guilds?

The groups going are by far the biggest WvW guilds, and like I said, they are the best organized in terms of community services like Team Speak.

What’s the rest of your server doing?

Burnfall.9573:

I Agree very much with you OP including those who aren’t in-denial.

Well as Always,
Multitude Reasonable Important posts/threads like this is thrown out in the trash due to Elitism of Favorite Stealth Thief class.

Obviously

It pains me to think that thief will likely see more nerfs due to people like this.

Is your entire server in those three guilds?

Straegen.2938:

Burnfall.9573:

“There is never room for Discussion and Rationality, if one is Enslaved to Denyingl the Truth”

This quote applies as much to your posts as it does anyone else.

Burnfall must be a politician with his “the truth is what I say it is” attitude.

Burnfall.9573:

Straegen

I play a ranger class, what more Truth do u need?

Isn’t that Rational enough?

What’s more to discuss?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8Ksn16H0OE

So your basis for claiming thief is OP is:

Anecdotal evidence where a weaker duelist class gets beaten by a stronger duelist class in a 1v1.

The fact that you are a ranger. No explanation, just that you are a ranger.

Seems legit.

I hate mesmers. I hate how they have damage, deception, mitigation, and cc all in a single package. I am not a Mesmer. Therefore, by your logic, that is proof that Mesmer is OP.

Or do I also have to link a video of a Mesmer killing someone?

Straegen.2938:

Dual.8953:

You could have blocked CnD. Then he can’t Sneak Attack and all his other skills are weak as all heck. CnD’s a melee skill so it should be obvious when a ranged set is trying to use it. Also he can only CnD twice from full initiative. Maybe try kiting.

Except there are plenty of other ways to stealth such as smoke fields (D/P creates them at will), other creatures, blinding powder, shadows refuge, doors, siege, etc. It is also pretty easy to just wait out dodges then CnD. Going stealth is ridiculously easy for a thief and not much another player can do about it.

It would be extremely odd for a condition spec thief running P/D to have a D/P secondary.

If you fight the thief standing in mobs you are just asking for trouble, and not just because of CnD.

Smokefield access on P/D is limited to a util.

Shadow refuge is on a 60 second cd and is VERY vulnerable to knockbacks (insta revealed if you knock them out)

How often are you fighting a thief surrounded by your own siege?

If you are near a door he can CnD (aka enemy door to him) why are you fighting to the death outside of it?

CnD working on walls and doors was patched out previously but recently came back due to a patch it seems. Either way, I am sure it will be patched out once they know why it happens.

JaNordy.6149:

Renxian.6982:

JaNordy.6149:

Haltair.3062:

Great. Another stealth thread.
Could any moderator take a look on these repeated threads?

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve shadows

Ever stop and think, that there are so many thief threads because anet refuses to do anything about them? I recently dueled a condition thief, something you rarely see. When he would stealth he would do his rapid sneak attack stack ton of bleed move. I was able to block it several times. What was my reward for perfectly timing it? Him still being stealth to do it all over again instantly everytime with no revealed or initiative lost. Clearly working as intended…

Regards,

JaNordy – One of the 6 CAMP

Just throwing it out there, but a P/D condi thief has to cloak and dagger you to stealth, unless he blows utils. So unless your “Perfect Timing” involves you allowing him to poke you in the kitten with his dagger every 3-4 seconds, you probably aren’t being particularly honest with us.

So rather than argue about a design flaw I pointed out in game, you blindly resort to the “its you” post. My timing was indeed perfect for what I stated. You have no clue how long duel I had with this thief was. He did CnD me many times as we fought, he also missed many times as well. You have completely failed to make a point in what I stated about block and sneak attack. You can tell when someone has no argument when they state “you are not being honest” as their argument.

One love,

JaNordy- One of the 6 CAMP

My point, since you are missing it, is that you failed to dodge or block the important part of the combo, which you can see coming because he has to practically caress you to land it. It doesn’t matter how long you were fighting because attrition is the absolute worst way to kill anything and a condition thief is pretty much 100% attrition damage. Attrition damage takes so stupidly long to take anyone with health it still amazes me that people actually die to condi thieves. They can’t even condition load you, they are just stacking bleed.

P/D condition thief also has the worst escapes and worst utility of any of the viable thief sets.

How in the world did you both fail to kill him AND allow him to stack enough bleeds to actually be dangerous.

I actually like playing for PPT. If I take enough of your stuff AND hold it, sooner or later you will need to fight me :p Not a dig, just saying the best way to pick a fight is to make yourself impossible to avoid XD

If not I guess I could like…use my world bonuses to farm some nodes or something.

GuardianOMS.8067:

It bothers me. My sister was killed in the great FA war of 2012. Please show respect.

Did we give her a proper burial?

Burnfall.9573:

As Always and be Always..

Stealth theif; which i call it by name, is thier class of choice, Intentially.

There’s Enough of Evidence Everywhere.

They Will Never Answer Your Question Op because as many Stealth Thieves Players; they hide in denial mode- much like Stealth Mode.

Whats New?

Lol

I hope that answers your question OP

I hold out hope that one day you will post something that:

1. Makes sense
2. Provides any form of actual proof to backup any claims
3. Is factually accurate.
4. Provides meaningful room for discussion

I’m not counting on that ever happening though.

Seetoo.9316:

So how would it differ from dagger? What you listed would be “ranged dagger”.

The problems are:
- pistol 2 is bad
- p/p has no mobility

So what if p2 is changed to a mobility skill. What would it do?
- It can’t be a leap to target with damage (Heartseeker)
- It can’t be a shadow step to your target with damage (Shadow Shot)
- It can’t be a shadow step away with damage (Shadow Strike)

- It can’t be a gap closer since you still want to kite

So the options would be a (300? 350?)gap maker (basically withdraw without the heal) with additional effects like:
- damage (boring)
- short duration smoke screen (premeditated)
- evade (reactive)
- caltrops (ridiculous with caltrops on dodge)

One of the options I included was a shadowstep on pistol 2. It may be boring but it would be a functional mobility skill. It would solve two problems for the set. the number 2 skill would no longer be useless and the set would gain mobility The skill doesn’t have to be exciting as long as it is useful.

The idea behind the leap finisher/execute numer 2 alternative was simple: if we leave the current attack speed on the pistol 1, giving it access to stealth for sneak attack synergy would improve the set overall, and giving the set an execute makes it more viable as both a condition and a damage spec AND solves the problem of unload spam being 100% of damage in a damage spec.

Wait till he learns about the new trait that kills all enemy targets near us when we stealth.

Monsoon.2589:

How about in order to take SM you need to go to LA and watch a couple of cut scenes, then do and transport quest from LA to X, then go and talk to some vendors, then go back to EB then back to LA to watch another Cut scene because you were not fact enough in watching a cut scene…then rinse and repeat

What does this have to do with PVP/wvw? Nothing

This is the exact same opposite of requiring PVE people to go into a pvp/wvw area to do achievements. Now just think about what wvw people would say if they had to go outside of wvw and watch cut scenes and do quests to achieve a wvw objective…people would be up in arms and /rabble rabble and people would just tell them “Hey its just PVE, if you don t like PVE then don t PVE, nobody forces you to do your wvw achievements”

See the issue?

Do YOU see the issue with labeling a wvw jp achievement as a pve achievement?

OS belongs to the wvwers, achievements in OS belong to PVPers. No one is forcing you to come. You can complete the 16 meta achievements without ever entering a pvp zone.

Thanks to these threads I will be making sure to camp some scrubs in OS at least once a week. Just so that I can bathe in the tears of the entitlement complex whiners. I hope every one of them is on here crying while I run that spike through their chest.