Guild Wars 2

Koviko.3248:

I always ask, “Seriously Tybalt? Do you really think just you alone going in there is going to actually make a difference? Don’t be a fool!”

But my character is silent.

Interesting, my character did say something to this effect for the Vigil version. Hearing this happens way in advance I wasn’t surprised though.

I think the current Krytan king during Sea of Sorrows really reflects that attitude, especially with his eventual acceptance of reality.

It branched from a reply here. I have a feeling most of us involved have said our piece at this point. What started it was a suggestion it would be impossible for Rytlock to have unrequited feelings for Logan. Note I am not saying he does but arguing it would not be out of place with current lore is what led to that long discussion, so it was tangentially on topic.

In response to Pyriel, if culture was that iron clad there would not be numerous people fleeing places like Saudi Arabia and countless more stuck there. Your culture argument is one that those governments make, but not one embraced by some hive mind. In addition for the Charr it would likely be more opposition due to the history of conflict. Modern Charr culture is not particularly concerned with what they do if it does not interfere with duty. There are always exceptions, but not all Charr are as extremely rigid as many seem to think, and there is a huge difference between outward and private conduct. For example the Charr do grieve in private, and it is the public display of weakness that is considered extremely taboo.

The Caitians and Bothans are just as animal-like as the Charr. Worst of all is trying to use TES to try and promote the frankly illogical “impossible” point, since there is an outright explicit scene between a Khajiit (and not of the more human-looking variety) and Dunmer (Dark Elf) that actually brings up his feline anatomy in TES lore books. The scene is censored in later games but the relationship exists all the same in said lore books. Plus there is the whole marriage thing in Skyrim. Also it bears mentioning that it was you who brought the mechanics of physical intimacy up, and your whole “they may be too different for anything to be possible” is stretching it big time when they are all outwardly similar in every manner you can see in game.

I get that you find it gross, and I am sure quite a few characters would too, but you are dismissing examples of where your logic is objectively wrong with a hand wave. Also I have acknowledged Logan’s attraction for Jennah numerous times. Something being taboo does not mean it would never happen either.

In short your bringing up Saudi Arabia and dismissing my TES example only weakens your argument, and while it is perfectly fine to view consentual physical relations between different sentient species as gross this does not mean it does not make any sense or that opposition to said unions would be any less oppressive in lore. In wildly shifting from genetic compatibility to superficial human-like looks you also show the logical weakness of your argument, and ignoring the examples in existing fiction that happened without mass public controversy does not help your point either.

And lastly I do feel this is on topic because yes the line of argument mirrors arguments about such freedoms. ArenaNet has said there are no current plans to show interracial relationships, but that does not mean they do not exist, and I will end this post by reiterating I think unrequited feelings would have their place in lore. It need not be nice neat pairings of characters.

It is hard to say exactly. Automated turrets are a thing for example.

Isn’t the lessened influence of humanity and Kryta’s struggle to stay relevant a major point of the game’s lore? I see it more as a demonstration of perseverance. Humanity does not have a dominant influence but Kryta is fighting against what unfortunately looked to be an arrogant march into irrelevance. Any prominence is a good thing on the road to increasing relevance.

They took many roads in design to get away from some fantasy tropes, and having the world not revolve around humanity is one of them, I think.

Pyriel.4370:

Logan and Rytlock for example would never have a sex drive for each other because of the difference in species, same as it would be Logan and Zojja, not to mention they all have platonic relationships, intimate but not sexual. So if you are talking about a relationship in which there is no sexual contact, that would be platonic, not a boyfriend or girlfriend as that would be a sexual relationship.

By saying that it is possible for a charr and human to have a sexual relationship you are saying that they could have sexual intercourse, rather than anything to do with personality, as it is the sexual intercourse that differentiates between platonic and sexual relationship.

As we must assume that humans and charr are close genetically or exact copies genetically to real world counterparts (homo sapiens and big cats), we can also assume that there would be no basis of common levels of attraction between the two races due to the above stated reasons thus no possibility of a healthy sexual attraction.

Hence it being most likely due to cultural, biological and lore-based reasons, that charr and humans are only capable of platonic relationships.

Okay I wanted to avoid repeating points but as has been said you seem to be ignoring them in your responses. Before I begin I must point out the only thing that matters is that two sentient beings are mutually attracted to each other. There is no “healthy” caveat there. Cultural reasons are irrelevant as characters are individuals.

Neither of us knows if Rytlock or less likely Logan have attraction for each other. Only the lore developers or definitive examples in the actual lore could define that. I went over that in length though.

Now again with the genetic and superficial stuff: all of the races, even if not 100% confirmed with the Asura, are more anatomically similar when it comes to physical compatibility than different. The superficial differences are minor in the grand scheme of things. Eyes, nose, ears, arms, legs, mouths, faces in general, as well as more intimate organs are all far more similar amongst them than different, and even if not directly confirmed for Asura the fact the Sylvari are outright confirmed to have physical relations with any of the other races by proxy makes the Asura compatible. Moreover even with alien biology it still would not matter. It is not as if two females at a glance would be compatible for example.

I shot down the bestiality thing before but will do so more specifically now. These are all sentient beings. The Charr could look exactly like a lion and it still would not be bestiality. Again there are numerous examples in scifi and fantasy of races of animal-like people and humans getting together. The Elder Scrolls, Star Trek, and Star Wars all had this happen without some big hullabaloo in the real world. I posted specific example earlier but I have to get going.

I think it is extremely relevant because your reasoning unintentionally I am sure mirrors the excuses made for people opposing same sex relationships.

I am not saying I want to play as Skritt but of note is they seriously considered them as a player choice. The player would have controlled a trio of them as one.

We see at least in old LA parents debating whether to send their kid back to a fahrar, and like I said Evon Gnashblade is still part of the Ash Legion. Now some I am sure are not. Other examples are some of the Charr founders many years before current GW2, and Charr players are given the blessing to work with the orders.

The Charr are most often carnivorous but there are examples in game that suggest some like to spruce things up with plant matter, though only a couple examples. They also cook their food and use sauces and such, which must contain some plant matter. It is very clear most are virtually exclusive carnivores.

Yes I get that platonic relationships can occur or care-giving relationships. In terms of sexual relationships though, biology comes a lot into that.

All of the races except the Sylvari are extremely biologically similar, and even the Sylvari have anatomy designed to be compatible. You are pointing out very superficial differences in anatomy.

In terms of the biological imperative, it gives humans a sex drive, therefore physical attraction for other humans, I don’t think that would work the same way for other races.

The whole point of the Sylvari having bodies mechanically compatible is to understand and take part in such things, and again the other races are far more alike the humans than different biologically.

the charr are still contesting land with the Ascalonians.

Those Ascalonians are cursed ghosts with the only active conflict with humans being the criminals not associated with official government, not that this has anything to do with the rest of my response.

Charr x Human would make no sense. Charr for example leave their children to the legions and the Fahrar and have no bond with them really, humans rear their own children largely. Charr are feline, Humans are primate (would you find an intelligent lion attractive?). Logan loves Queen Jennah (duh) and Rytlock has a band of brothers aspect to pretty much all his relationships. He’s the tribune of the Blood Legion, I’d be surprised if he had time in his diary for any sexual relationship.

Oh where to begin here? Firstly regardless of race characters are individuals. Some Charr do keep in touch with their children and some humans outright abandon theirs. Both Charr and humans are humanoid in shape, both are mammals and so are far more similar than different even then, and both are of roughly equal intelligence. The latter is pretty much the only thing that matters too. You keep bringing up reproduction when that is not the basis for all relationships, much less same sex ones. As to your question about intelligent lions, obviously it would surprise you but there are entire fandoms revolving around anthropomorphic animals, fantasy races, and all manners of fictional sentient creatures that yes include people that can find them attractive.

On the topic of Rytlock he is not an automoton. It is possible he has never pursued a relationship but even then it does not mean he is ‘made of stone’ to paraphrase a Charr character in Ghosts of Ascalon. Regardless of which way he swings Rytlock is clearly a very emotional character, so I would not assume he is pretty much asexual simply due to his dedication to duty.

I agree Logan almost certainly has his eyes set on Jennah but that would only reinforce the jealousy Rytlock already has. As I said it could absolutely be platonic but he is clearly jealous of her. I went over my thoughts on that in detail a few posts ago so I will leave it at that here.

While yes that is true, it is more how far should they concern themselves to go.

Either way if they put in a major gay character, I would wager it will he a sylvari or human with another of the same race (if they find their partner).

You seem really preoccupied with the notion a mixed race couple would somehow be extemely strange or even controversial but the topic is not at all out of the ordinary in scifi/fantasy settings, as I gave a few examples of earlier.

This brings me back to my original point: not all characters need be paired up. Again while I fully acknowledge the Rytlock situation cold be totally platonic, it would not surprise me if he was attracted to Logan, and really his attempts to join him in a brotherly relationship would make perfect sense especially in response to Logan’s attraction to Jennah being clear.

Unrequited feelings that a character learns to live with, even if that is not easy, would work fine for a gay or bisexual character, or even a straight one. Not all romantic feelings are mutual, and a strong friendship existing despite that I think would be interesting.

They made it pretty clear a long time ago they didn’t want the game’s content to be a check list of killing dragons.

It is impossible to draw exact real world parallels with steampunk or magic. Charr water treatment for example actually surpasses our real life technology, with relatively small devices able to cleanse entire bodies of water. Of course stuff like ghost traps, ghost disruption, and devices to attract branded have no real equivalent.

About that Asuran comment, I did think I remembered ArenaNet saying the Charr are the most advanced, and at least one Charr in game boasts that they are way ahead, but I had no idea any Asura said as much.

As to Charr technology being the root of most other mechanical technology, I suppose sifting through hours of prerelease interviews is the only way to find the exact wording.

Confusingly some stuff in game does contradict prerelease lore too, even stuff still cited in articles. I see the article on the Charr has been updated since I last read it though because the old version emphasized promotion through killing superiors, and the Charr in game seem more a meritocracy with advancement in rank through killing seemingly far less common though not rare (and doing such does not on its own guarantee support or respect).

As to the tanks in game being slow or fragile, I have to check out the Black Citadel later. I could swear high speed races are mentioned.

As long as it doesn’t turn into the “holy trinity” problem some MMORPGs face. As a more extreme example we could have 50 people in a max of 54 for our Everquest raids and 1-2 of the wrong people logging off could make us unable to do anything of value.

They also specifically went out of the way to make each content release avoid a list of checking off “the next dragon.”

It has to vary from individual to individual too. It would not surprise me if Queen Jennah could do it quite a bit further than Kasmeer did for example, considering she demonstrated superhuman-like ability when the branded attacked Ebonhawke. She simultaneously projected an illusion that Kralkatorrik flew by again and that all of the combatants got turned into branded, tricking the hordes of branded into thinking the battle was won, while simultaneously paralyzing all of the allied combatants to prevent them from breaking the trick of the illusion. I don't know if there is a single other example of such extreme mesmer power in lore.

On the topic of the Charr that count as part of “the military” yeah, they all likely do. In fact I suspect even Evon Gnashblade is still counted amongst the Ash Legion legionnaires for example. Not all Charr are always actively fighting, but they do all have training and I think even most (or perhaps many) living abroad are still technically part of their legions. The reason that they are likely all counted in the numbers is that duty is extremely important to the Charr. If serving to one’s ability involves farming or being a merchant that is still considered a duty. The combatants are more highly regarded but the largely non-combat roles are not scorned (in general at least) either.

It’s been pretty much stated the Charr and Asura are quite a bit ahead of the others in the field of physical and magical technology respectively.

Notably, ArenaNet has said prior to the game launch pretty much all mechanical devices you see are derived from older Charr technology. Does something in game say Kryta leads in farming technology though? The Charr are indisputably as far as I’m aware quite far ahead when it comes to physical technology, but that doesn’t mean they lead in all areas and I’ll admit if I’m wrong.

I believe it’s the opposite though, not that the difference in aesthetics exaggerates how far the Charr are ahead, but that the steampunk look actually understates how far the Charr are ahead. If we could see the Charr tanks in motion, that would probably be quite a bit more clear. Years after the Charr technology started to spread perhaps the gap isn’t quite as large even if their innovations largely came first, but I still get the impression without fighting wars on so many fronts and without a Charr faction interested in truce the humans would not have the slightest chance of fending off the full might of the modern Charr Legions. Even a great many years prior to the game in the novel Sea of Sorrows, the main character is blown away at how advanced Charr technology is in comparison to the propaganda he was taught growing up.

This does make me really curious though. Proficiency in the design and construction of machines doesn’t automatically make them the best farmers. It is most definitely not unusual though. The mother’s response to the child in question that was brought up for example amounts to “we’ll see what your strengths are when you go to your fahrar.” The fact Charr society is in a period of rapid social change (with not all areas or Charr equally enthusiastic about that change) confuses matters further.

Pyriel.4370:

But bear in mind this is a game rated Teen, so people from ages 13 can play it legally. So while I can imagine GW2 pushing some boundaries, I wouldn’t think they would put gigantic focus on this and tbf this game is about killing big dragons, so I doubt they should either as well Anet has social responsibility as a business, it should not really be trying to solve the world’s issues.

Firstly, the game is about far more than “killing big dragons,” as the massive effort put into the characters and lore shows. In addition to that, ArenaNet put a lot of thought into these things, including things that will never come up in game. Just because they never bring up sexual matters in game for example, does not mean they have not thought about them when designing the lore. The confirmation that Sylvari can have physical relations with any of the other races is perhaps the biggest example of this, in addition to the fact most Charr relationships are stated to be casual (and no, not in the ‘just to produce cubs’ sense).

Secondly, the ESRB system has no legal bearing as established by USA courts protecting the first amendment. It is a voluntary system. I know that is different for other countries, but I highly doubt anyone but the most extreme of politicians would take notice of this.

It’s clear at face value that all of the races are more similar to humans than not. Any quirks of specifics are kind of irrelevant in my opinion, even the fact that Sylvari are just made in the humanoid shape with fully functional parts so they can interact as other humanoids do. I would argue people do not have intimacy for reproduction, more like reproduction is a side effect of the physical intimacy that is ingrained in people. The Sylvari have the necessary body parts for this but are not fertile, not even with each other. It is only to participate in such intimacy that they even have the parts for it.

And lastly, since I didn’t mention this, I think the only thing of significance is that the parties involved are desiring such intimacy. Similarity of anatomy is a superficial thing that shouldn’t matter at all, but even if it did they are all more similarly shaped than different.

Interracial relationships in the context of the game have nothing to do with any real world issues considering for one we do not know of any other species with intelligence comparable with humanity and for two most of the civilized world is long past mass opposition to interracial relationships.

The whole “can produce offspring” argument is one of the flimsiest ones in existence in trying to determine if a relationship is appropriate. It is pretty much only ever brought up as an excuse to either ridicule or deny rights. You pretty much never hear of anyone try and tell infertile people they have no business in relationships. Cultures that still sell women are another thing entirely, but that isn’t a factor most of the time bring up the “can produce children” card.

It may not be ArenaNet’s responsibility to chime in on social issues, but it’s certainly not their responsibility to avoid any taboo that might raise the hackles of people with hyperjudgemental perspectives on intimacy. I’ll note that I’ve noticed people out to judge other relationships tend to be absolutely obsessed with the physical mechanics of sex too. How everyone’s bits are shaped and whether they can produce children are 100% irrelevant when talking about two consenting sentient adult characters. I am not accusing anyone here of this perspective, but the post I’m responding to certainly suggests ArenaNet should bow down to avoid making those with that perspective go all “eww gross.”

I just want to post for the record, since I gave negative feedback in the past, that I think the compromise is fair, and I in fact bought the most expensive version to support the game to show my appreciation.

I do still think there should be extra small incentive even for new players to pre-purchase the base game, but overall I think it’s much fairer now.

You have nothing to be sorry for. It was perfectly clear what you meant. The main things off were that English does not apply a gender to things that do not literally have gender (except in slang as a form of affection especially for vehicles/ships) and simple grammatical differences. What you were trying to say still was quite clear though.

It was not at all an accident. They put quite an emphasis on the game’s system enabling spontaneous co-op. It’s one of the game’s greatest strengths in my opinion.

I understand your feeling to a point. I lead raids in my EverQuest guild and while I love my guild the game feels like a job honestly, to the point that when I had real life job hours overlap the game it felt like a break (people are simultaneously both wonderful and dreadful – being in guild leadership has taught me that people are quite nuts and to just accept that). I love that I can just hop on GW2 and have fun spontaneously. I don’t expect to see that go away personally.

Yeah if you didn’t invest a ton of time I’d go for the second account personally. Me? While to players that were active to the whole time I’m sure I’m poor, I’ve invested many hours into the game and my character has stuff from one time events I’d not want to give up.

Now if you have a bunch of old holiday stuff and such, that would be a very hard decision indeed.

I’m really glad to see someone has taken the effort to translate this. I made myself e-flashcards to memorize New Krytan around the time the game came out, then abandoned that as my obsession dimmed to mere love of the game lore. Thanks for the interesting read.

On the topic of Charr diet and farming it’s really important to remember that the Charr have the best (physical) technology in the known world. Their farming technique is probably vastly superior to the humans’ for example. Don’t let the steam punk look make you forget they have the likes of water treatment technology.

The size of the Blood Legion lands being pretty much only an estimate is a huge factor too. I really don’t know how well you can estimate the Charr populations based on in game stuff, because like others said the matter of scale in game does not reflect the vastness of Tyria in lore. Traveling from Ebonhawke to Ascalon on foot takes the majority of an entire book, and that’s only a relatively small swath of Iron Legion territory, which is only the second largest.

Edit:
It appears some old lore info claims the Charr do not have farms. That is clearly contradicted by lore in game though, so perhaps it was old information or historical information from the time when the Flame Legion’s control was cast off. A Charr cub in the Black Citadel outright says he wants to be a farmer.

Vilenia.3081:

- Not knowing where is the Ash Legion’s homeland.

Edit: I’m starting to think my mind just conjured up the following. Maybe it’s only the Blood Legion that was pinpointed.
I could have sworn it’s to the east or northeast with a huge swath of land being Blood Legion territory to the north. I have to look this up now.

It’s also quite amazing how the truce faction not only started but actually gained some significant influence as well. The charr of the pre-game lore you can read represent only one faction, with the growing influence of the truce faction. Granted Smodur still fears the historical ways of his people.

I think it is wonderful we have this medium to discuss this civilly. Of course things will get a bit heated sometimes, but I think we can all remain civil and try and remain more level-headed. I mean no offense to any with this response.

Okay I don’t think I need to make a bunch of quotes to respond to all of that.

1.) On the topic of a “tortured” character or one where their sexuality defines them:
There was no history of mass repression in the Guild Wars universe, or certainly not in the context of modern Tyria. At most it sounds like a Flame Legion kind of thing considering it’s implied females are treated literally as animals, so perhaps taking a stereotypically female role in mating would be seen as demeaning in the twisted lens of the flame legion. You meet a charr woman who didn’t even know how to speak when she was rescued, which paints a very dark picture into how the Flame Legion dealt with women being instrumental in its fall from power. I don’t think this is ever outright stated, but the game takes a “somewhere between G and PG” tone when it comes to sexual matters, so I doubt they will outright say the females of the Flame Legion are reduced to sex slaves that aren’t even allowed to learn to speak, but it seems heavily implied by that dialog in the Iron Marches. That said it was directly stated that there is not a prejudice in Tyria regarding same sex relationships: it’s considered weird but not regarded with hostility. It would make no sense to shoehorn a personality in to represent a type of behavior/emotional state formed as a result of real life history. Considering it’s a huge point of pride that all Charr are regarded equally based on their merits, I suspect implying taking a “female” role in mating is somehow demeaning would earn a rather dangerous reaction from female Charr. I like the example of Rytlock here because it would change absolutely nothing whatever way he swings.

In fact, I would go so far as to say bringing blatant attention to it would be hideously frivolous since it would drag in real-world issues “just because.” Such characters simply happening to exist is a far better way of doing it.

2.) On the topic interracial aka mixed species relationships:
This would perhaps be frowned upon between races with current or recent political animosity, or a “eww gross” kind of reaction, but when it comes to the whole “animal” thing the Charr (or other animal-like races for that matter) are not arbitrarily controversial because they happen to be feline, any more than humans happen to be primates.

The fact of that matter is, whatever the form Charr anatomy may take, they are far more similar to humans than not, and are at the least equal in intelligence. Interracial relationships (which is a way of frequently saying interspecies relationships when all parties involved are ‘sentient’ on a human-like level or higher) are nothing new or controversial. The Charr are no more different than humans than say Klingons in Star Trek for example. The fact that they are feline is of superficial consequence, and if you look at it logically there are way more anatomical similarities than differences.

The developers, in fact, have outright confirmed the Sylvari can have intimate physical relations with any of the other races of Tyria. This isn’t the kind of thing they address in game, but they have addressed it.

Opposition to a Charr-human relationship or approval of a Sylvari-human relationship simply based on the looks of the races is pretty much akin to the logic behind real world anti-miscegenation laws. There isn’t any logical basis to condemn relationships between consenting individuals, and it was never controversial in the other sci-fi/fantasy media that addressed it. Khajiit player characters and Argonians in Skyrim can wed the more human-looking races, and there are I’m sure tons of other examples. There is at least one half-Bothan half-human character addressed in the Star Wars books, and the Bothans are depicted as variously canine/equine in appearance. They did inexplicably tone down the feline features of the Caitians for Star Trek: Into Darkness, but the fact is they had Captain Kirk fooling around with not one but two women of an alien species long-established as feline.

Heck, the actor who played Garak on Deep Space Nine pretty much made the character bisexual, and played him as flirting with Dr. Bashir in his first episode. He was asked to tone it down, and it wasn’t because his character wasn’t human. (Considering his character was only intended to be in one episode though and he became a recurring guest role, obviously they did not hold this against the actor, and they even let him write his own book about the character later.)

Now hey I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with finding it gross, but the fact is all of the races of GW2 are far more like humans than different.

Leo G.4501:

Zunnar.8503:

snip

Hmm, did all of that actually happen? I mean, it’s not indicative of anything but it is interesting.

That said, I bet so many people would rage if they found out Rytlock wasn’t the most manliest male thing to ever man a male (sentence sounds rather gay, huh?) which is odd. . . you can still be very masculine and not be heterosexual but apparently who he hits on at the bar makes him less bad-a to people? Fyi, I don’t care either way what Rytlock is, (I only have eyes for Tybalt!) and don’t think we’ll ever find out at all.

It all happened but it all could be in the context of friendship and teamwork too.

I hope quoting the book is okay like this. I snipped it up as much as I could think to without removing the meaning. I’m hoping quoting like this is considered fair.

I think those four incidents are an enormous part explaining why Rytlock and Logan act the way they do towards each other in game. And yeah, it doesn’t say anything and there could be no more to it than friendship/brotherhood. If there were some unrequited feelings going on there though, I don’t think those quotes would contradict it. Importantly it wouldn’t affect who Rytlock is at all, because in the context of a charr a warband’s bond is even stronger than any crush would be.

Indeed there is nothing wrong with the thread. I think this topic is nicely contained here so I hope bumping it is okay.

Firstly it was confirmed there is not prejudice in any of the player race societies on this subject, and that it would be looked on as perhaps strange but not with hostility.

I want to bring up something I am not sure others have, as most all examples are about potential couples. A male character can be gay or bisexual without being in a relationship. The reality is there are far fewer potential partners, and unrequited feelings are something people have to deal with regardless of orientation. Rytlock and Logan come up quite a bit, and it is very clear Rytlock is jealous of Jennah. Now it very well may be a platonic jealousy, but if Rytlock held feelings Logan could never return it would be something many gay men have to live with. Rytlock teased Logan the first time he met Jennah, but what if at the same time it stung him as she gave him a scarf as a gift? Rytlock gave Logan a Blood Legion symbol and invited him into his warband. Probably the second most off guard I have seen Rytlock is when Logan gave Rytlock that scarf in return, something a flabbergasted Rytlock tried to turn down until Logan insisted. I could easily see that moment being a time in which Rytlock accepts his unrequited feelings and tries to simply make the most of their friendship, making the scarf being given to him doubly awkward. It is important to note to a Charr the bond with other members of their warband is considered even stronger than that of lovers. The most caught off guard was of course when Logan left just before the fight with Kralkatorrik, to paraphrase… “You’re a part of my warband… my brother! You can’t abandon us!” At that point whether or not the feelings are platonic it is quite clear Logan hurt Rytlock extremely deeply. It would be the epitome of (blocking erroneous censor) awkwardness if this theory is correct and Rytlock got invited to be a best man at Logan and Jennah’s wedding, if their relationship progresses in that direction. To summarize a long-winded comment: the existence of a gay or bisexual male need not be in a token relationship.

Moving on from that subject, there are a lot of misconceptions about the Charr here. Firstly, there are enough heterosexual and bisexual Charr that population is a non-issue, especially since most relationships are more casual. The biggest mistake I see here is the Charr living outside the Charr lands being called gladium. Charr can live apart from their warband (and this is seen as suspiciously strange but not with open hostility), and they can be part of a legion while living far away. Evon Gnashblade for example is an Ash Legionnaire. Others already addressed the fact that Charr are not automotons and do have relationships, and even if most are more casual they are still relationships and there is not a taboo against the closer mates.

Rytlock doesn’t strike me as the type to hold a blanket prejudice (and even as he whined about being weak for trusting a human in Logan he became a big part of the truce faction). It would be logical to be very wary however due to the corrupting influence.

I think one of the depressing things is how both Jennah and Smodur are shackled by warmongers. Both have to hold back their agendas lest they lose popular support. It has been said Smodur’s greatest fear is the nature of the Charr undoing his plans with the legions reverting to a state of perpetual civil war. This makes the talk of him wanting to destroy the Claw of the Khan-Ur make perfect sense. This does not annoy me though, and I hope we hear more about the Claw in the future.

It is the opposite of some others for me for the technology. It is not believable to me when a fantasy setting does not evolve over time, and it is refreshing seeing science, technology, an even society progress over time. This is hundreds of years after the first game, and I am not a fan of a fantasy world being stuck in a snapshot of time for thousands of years.

I see it as one of the many fantasy tropes they intentionally snubbed, such as the Charr being quite unlike Gnomes and the hive mind race not being arthropods. I like that they broke the mold. Even the magic-based Asuran technology is treated with a more scientific manner, and again I find that refreshing, but of course I am not saying one opinion is more correct than another. I would just find it far less believable if over hundreds of years nothing progressed.

I do not guess exactly what is going on, but in considering it I do think it is important to remember Evon risked his life to prevent his Legionnaire from extorting “protection money” from the people of the city, and killing another member of his wabrand was akin to killing his sister to defend the city. Granted he might not be above less extreme manipulation.

Edit: Spoiler tag and all formatting stopped working. I had to delete the post and repost.

About Rytlock’s motivation, don't forget the whole reason he fought in the arena to begin with was because he agreed with Caithe that they were being cruel to the animals, in fact he personally set the arena on fire. I think it's pretty obvious Rytlock got very attached to Logan too, and he was jealous of the Queen from the first time Logan got all googly eyed for her. Now it could be jealous as in attention as a friend, or war companion, or something a bit more than that, but in the end the reason doesn't matter because Rytlock is quite obviously jealous of Jennah. I think he has many motivations beyond that, but he liked Logan a lot, and he even freaked out and urged them to call off the attack out of desperation, because "Logan was always by his side." (To which Eir replied "Well he's not now, or some such.") More than that, it's not like he only cared about Logan. I think his grief was second only to Zojja, if not equal to it. He was pretty much paralyzed after the battle at first, Caithe accusing him of "wallowing in grief" when they needed to be planning their next move, to which he replied with something along the lines of "Wallow?! Two of our companions are dead!". He didn't even know Glint long before making that statement either. I say this to emphasize there is a lot more to him than simple vanity. He wouldn't have been one to just leave without them. They were his friends after the months in the arena. I don't think we ever learned just why he wasn't with his warband either have we? Regardless, he was not as bold at the start of the book. He didn't press the issue warning about the trap at the start of the book for example. I'm not saying Rytlock at the start was timid, but he certainly wasn't nearly at the point of his reputation by the start of the game.

If they address the concerns and do something reasonable, I will pre-purchase. If they don’t, I’m not giving them a free loan and I will buy at the last moment.

BrotherBelial.3094:

warbignime.4610:

Then you don’t buy it, why make another thread like this when you know there are hundred others. Mods merge this please.

Why? This has nothing to do with the price, or the inclusion of the core game. It’s a then Vs now conversation. And feed back to ANet that if/when they do another xpac, they think about adding more of a pre-order bonus. At no point did I or anyone else talk about getting it or not. That is all you.

I agree. I’ve posted similarly in other topics before seeing this one. This topic addresses exactly the problem I have with this.

“Hey, give us an advanced payment for who knows how much collective interest for us, and in exchange, your bonus is…. pretty much absolutely nothing! Oh if you want to spend 150-200% more we’ll bundle a few digital items with gem shop purchases… but hey you can eagerly assist us test our product and pay us to do so!”

That’s the pre-purchase “bonus” in a nutshell. Nevermind that pre-purchase on its own is morally questionable, but now they get worse bonuses than even non-fully paid preorders have historically gotten. It’s a complete and utter insult.

I mean seriously, how can you honestly look at that pre-purchase page and not see anything wrong with basically NO bonus at the $50 tier, even for active players? What’s the company that started this disgusting pre-purchase thing anyway?

mrstealth.6701:

You get a totally worthless title. Which they apparently feel is worth paying for a product you have no idea when you will actually recieve.

This reminds me the GW2 soundtrack. I heard your money goes into the ether paying for it, and indeed nearly two years later it still hasn’t come. I like Jeremy Soule’s music but man what a stinker of an online store he owns.

I only didn’t complain because I acquired it through other means (a friend) while purchasing due to the abysmal feedback his store has. It’s almost fraud, but I went in knowing I probably wouldn’t get the physical item for a very long time if ever.

I know I can trust ArenaNet to get the product. And indeed, even a free character slot for pre-purchasing would be better than nothing at all for existing customers. Heck, I’ve bought a few gem cards over the years for the simple purpose of wanting to contribute. Giving ArenaNet money isn’t what I’m upset about. Hopefully they fix this up.

Infusion.7149:

Zunnar.8503:

Price isn’t the problem, absolutely no bonus for pre-purchasing, even if you own the original release, is.

The access to the beta weekends is pretty much the only incentive *unless the prepurchase features (kite/guild hall item/mini) are removed after official launch

However, the “vanilla” GW2 HoT is hardly a good value for someone who owns GW2.

The privilege of helping QA the product is not something I’d tout as a huge bonus. Seriously, something like a character slot or fluff item or something, but absolutely no incentive to pre-purchase at all unless you pay an exorbitantly inflated price.

Price isn’t the problem, absolutely no bonus for pre-purchasing, even if you own the original release, is.

I felt like Edge of Destiny had more potential, like it was rushed. For example Logan teaching Rytlock to swim would have been a neat thing to see, but it's treated as "oh yeah Logan taught Rytlock to swim." Some of my favorite parts of the book were actually when Rytlock was caught off guard and his "mental armor" so to speak dropped for a moment, and I liked the contrast at the end where the characters that took everything the worst and were inconsolable were the one that usually acted cold being brought to hysteria (Zojja) and the one who acted tough falling to his knees and wallowing in grief as Caithe accused him of doing (Rytlock).

There are a lot of nuances to the characters that were shown but not really explored much. I thought the end of the book was by far its strongest part.

I liked Ghosts of Ascalon, even if I had (and have) a thirst to hear more about the members of Destiny’s Edge. I hope we find out how Rytlock got that sword eventually for example.

Now Sea of Sorrows was just astoundingly amazing. I will probably re-read that some time. I was really impressed. I really hope Ree is the one that writes it if there is another book. The Charr having retractable claws was not something I’d have known without the books either. It’s a minor detail but I find it amusing considering how they look in game. I wasn’t expecting the book with the most distant connection to the current game lore to be my favorite, but it wins easily for me.

The price isn’t the thing that gets me. It’s the total lack of pre-purchase bonus. There’s no incentive for me as an existing customer to pay early. The list of bonuses is totally blank.

Did people who bought GW2 after it came out get the same bonus as a standard pre-purchase exactly? No!

There should be an incentive for pre-purchasing beyond “you get to help us QA the game.”

The problem I have is there is literally no incentive to pre-purchase as an existing customer. That’s not greed, that’s… hey… prepurchase… oh if you’re just one of those NORMAL buyers there’s really nothing bonus for you though.

The fact the incentive to pre-purchase is literally a blank slate no different than buying at launch is the huge problem for me. There’s no bonus whatsoever unless you pay 50% more, and the ludicrous $99 one is just a cash shop bundle.

I apologize if this bump is inappropriate, but I saw a point that was brought up that I did not notice an answer to.

CureForLiving.5360:

Not sure if they have social stigma against dying of old age like the Spartans supposedly had.

I know this is an old topic but I don’t think this was answered. The Charr actually do not have such a stigma. Basically, duty is important but not really battle in particular. Now active fighters may get higher recognition and such but it’s not considered dishonorable to fill other roles. What I gather is that arrogantly pushing towards a duty that one cannot fulfill well or being outright lazy are things that are despised, but performing to one’s best ability is respected no matter what the job is, even if it’s passing along old stories as an elder. Obviously not all Charr think alike, but this is actually addressed in game.

To get to the point, and I apologize I do not have time to look this up right now, there is someone you can talk to in the Black Citadel that talks about an old respected Charr. It might be about one of the statues but I’m not sure. In any case, eventually your character can ask what battle he died in or some such. The reply was that he didn’t die in battle; when he got too old for that he served by sharing his experiences with newer generations, and died a hero. It’s also highly implied in various dialog that while all Charr have battle training and are likely far better fighters than say the average human, not all of them perform fighting as their duty. The particular example I can think of is an NPC expressing annoyance with some Iron Legion Engineers that do not fight the battles, and the player character can choose to point out that their work is necessary for the war effort. I want to say this was in the Iron Marches.

One thing to remember about the Charr Legions as of the game’s time line is that they are fighting wars on many fronts. Even with the cease fire with the humans, Rytlock openly talks about how the Charr are fighting a losing war of attrition against the ghosts of Ascalon, Branded, and Flame Legion (as of early in the Personal Story, as an Iron Legion player is working on technology to disperse ghosts for longer windows of time). For that reason, I’m sure mortality is higher even than usual.

Also of note is that it’s been said that the greatest fear of the Iron Legion imperitor Smodur is if the aggressive nature of the Charr makes stabilization impossible, with the legions descending into never-ending civil war once other threats are resolved. I don’t know if it’s a dropped plot point, but he actually wanted to destroy the Claw of the Khan-Ur as a symbolic move to leave behind the past and move forward. What is definitely a plot point of the novel Ghosts of Ascalon is that retrieving of the Claw was specifically arranged to try and manipulate more Charr into accepting work towards a peace treaty with the humans, and in game Charr NPCs vary in opinion whether they oppose or desire peace.

I think there’s a transition of sorts in Charr culture at the time of the game, even beyond the rejection of the Flame Legion. For example a cub in the Plains of Ashford wants to be a botanist, but the player character says they would never be accepted. Yet, as you explore the game you do meet Charr researchers and even historians, even some dedicated to the objective study of the ruins of Rin.

I don’t know where that would all lead eventually, but I think it’s very safe to say at the least for some time prior to the events of the game old age was most definitely not something looked upon negatively.

Yeah I actually logged in to mention the difference between Asura (magic) and Charr (physical) technology but it looks like that’s been covered.

One thing that it is very easy to miss about the lore is that the Asura technology is superior with all things magical but Charr technology is more advanced when it comes to the workings of physical machines, so if we’re talking rockets and such the Charr are (far) ahead on that, and only very recently have helicopters and airships come about. Due to the steampunk nature of the Charr technology in the game, it’s easy to forget that the Charr are as far ahead of the other races when it comes to physical technology as the Asura are with their magical technology.

Of course the combination of different technologies happens in the game’s lore, but even considering all that there is so much going on in Tyria they really do not have time to worry about thinking of other planets, I would suspect.

If any of that has changed since before the game came out do correct me of course. It’s just really common to see people think the Asura are technologically superior, when it’s not that simple. Just how big the gap is between the Charr and Asura is another matter entirely, since there is a fair bit of arrogance from both sides on that front. For example a Charr in the Black Citadel says she wasn’t worried about touring Asura learning how to make a few alloys when the Asura are centuries behind when it comes to the design and construction of physical technology, but who knows how much she may have been exaggerating.

I’d be lying if I said I didn’t think of this though, especially since (correct me if I’m wrong) the humans and their gods came from a different planet originally.

They really need to fix it. I’d go so far as to call it un-fun. I knew this bug existed but I figured weeks later it would have been fixed by now. I got 96,000/100,000 for the last tier of the monthly experience and the trading post bugged out so I logged out and back in which got the trading post working. Pity it erased all of the progress I made for it, and the kicker is I was at 75,000 in a previous zone before I went to craft, thinking I’d finish it off with crafting. I proceeded to progress with my character in another zone and got a good 150,000+ experience and then a game bug froze me at a black screen and then disconnected me. There goes all that progress once again. Naturally I had used 75%+ of my funds to purchase the tradeskill materials I needed to finish off the leather working tier I was working on, so just crafting more is not an option considering it resets when you zone.

They should just wipe this one from the September achievements because it is so incredibly broken. Sure you can work around it but it’s nothing but a chore as is. You can’t see how close you even are to completing it and it just outright encourages grinding as safely as possible in a single zone in one sitting. That’s just plain broken and I hope they fix it soon. There are so many things I’ve wanted to try that I avoided trying to get this silly thing done, only to find it was outright erasing all of my progress any time I took a break or zoned. Bleh!