Guild Wars 2

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jeknar.6184:

Nuzt.7894:

Jeknar.6184:

Shala.8352:

One thing i can tell you, is that wvw players havent the same mentality of pvers grinders, so we don’t give a kitten about reward tracks XD, we play for fights and we have fun fighting, our fun is not coming from opening the loot but from killing the opponents.

That’s why people always cried about how rewards were bad and how EotM was much more rewarding?

That doesn’t mean ppl play for rewards, it means they see the difference between the two an common sense would dictate that reward/loot progression should be close to equal. It’s the principle more then anything I would think.

But this person said we don’t care about rewards, then why would we complain when the rewarding is poor? That whole “WvW players don’t care about rewards” thing is a lie.

Sure, we don’t want to turn WvW in EotM 2.0 by overflooding it with rewards, but I’m thankful for the reward tracks as they now increased the poor income I have from playing mostly WvW. That mean less time on PvE and more time in the game mode I want to play.

I think most of us were complaining because we’d actually lose gold playing WvW, especially those of us that were constantly upgrading things. Even now with the reward tracks I’m lucky if I break even.

This^

WvW now earns enough that you don’t (or shouldn’t) lose money doing it. Problem is the way many handle it they just let the commander or just some people pay for all the siege and stuff, tip your commanders! (those 4 superior rams that just dropped cost someone about 1g, multiply that by the dozen or so times you do that, it adds up and someone is footing the bill).

Jeknar.6184:

Nuzt.7894:

Jeknar.6184:

Shala.8352:

One thing i can tell you, is that wvw players havent the same mentality of pvers grinders, so we don’t give a kitten about reward tracks XD, we play for fights and we have fun fighting, our fun is not coming from opening the loot but from killing the opponents.

That’s why people always cried about how rewards were bad and how EotM was much more rewarding?

That doesn’t mean ppl play for rewards, it means they see the difference between the two an common sense would dictate that reward/loot progression should be close to equal. It’s the principle more then anything I would think.

But this person said we don’t care about rewards, then why would we complain when the rewarding is poor? That whole “WvW players don’t care about rewards” thing is a lie.

Sure, we don’t want to turn WvW in EotM 2.0 by overflooding it with rewards, but I’m thankful for the reward tracks as they now increased the poor income I have from playing mostly WvW. That mean less time on PvE and more time in the game mode I want to play.

He/She is wrong, I care about rewards, not because I want a shiny mini per or some crap but lets face it WvW is the most expensive game mode. We have to buy siege, gear changes frequently, Food/Stones (this part can be pretty kitten expensive), server transfer, I would say Guild Hall upgrades are more important to WvW for the Guild Siege if nothing else. I don’t play for rewards but I certainly would not mind having some half decent rewards I could turn into gold.

PvP is a one time charge for the locked stuff, PvE is put on zerker gear and never worry about regearing ever again. WvW is really the only mode that requires gold income on a constant basis.

So I don’t agree with “we don’t care about rewards” but I do not base my gameplay off of rewards, they would be a welcomed addition.

You have to understand that for a long time wvw players had to sink lots of gold into wvw but had no way to obtain it. Back in the day you would be lucky to leave with a few gold. That is where the rewards complaint stems. This issue was made even more significant after guilds lost all their guild buffs and had to spend thousands of gold to get them back. Other contributors include introduction of ascended weapons/armor and introduction of new expensive stat combinations not found in wvw.

Hey … that is a nice improvement in communication. Didn’t have to go to Twitter to find out what happened.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

Every one has an opinion if you arnt considering Gw1 or Gw2 pay to win it is your own way of viewing it … it dosnt mean these are facts !
also i havnt said that this game is P2W
i just said i agree with some people that it is DEBATABLE !

Compared to F2P the expansion is slightly P2W it is debatable no matter what OPINION youll express
if you compare Reaper to Necro or Mesmer to Chrono there is a huge difference
but yea sure it dosnt mean you cant win a match but some F2P peeps feel the disadvantage and it should be addressed in my OPINION

Why should it? They are on a trail account if they want everything all they need to do is buy the game same. as everyone else

This is the same stubborn mentality that brings you ‘GW2 is the worst grind MMO’.

It’s plausible that I am being bias with my subjective take on things, but I am willing to gamble my previous experience with games that have had actual grinds or P2W aspects to them that I can safely say GW2 is doing an excellent job making them nearly non-existent or absolutely unnecessary.

Until this game offers an item that you can only get through the gem store with gems, that is an outright upgrade over any pre-existing item you can normally get through playing the game, it will not be P2W.

I like someone’s statement before about it being paying for convenience. That’s extremely different than paying for an absolute advantage over your other players, and you certainly aren’t winning for it.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

Every one has an opinion if you arnt considering Gw1 or Gw2 pay to win it is your own way of viewing it … it dosnt mean these are facts !
also i havnt said that this game is P2W
i just said i agree with some people that it is DEBATABLE !

Compared to F2P the expansion is slightly P2W it is debatable no matter what OPINION youll express
if you compare Reaper to Necro or Mesmer to Chrono there is a huge difference
but yea sure it dosnt mean you cant win a match but some F2P peeps feel the disadvantage and it should be addressed in my OPINION

Adding exclamation marks to your sentences doesn’t make them facts. Just saying.

We had a definition of pay to win back in the day that served a purpose. The purpose was to separate games that were legit from games that were simply ways to part you from your money. That definition came with all sorts of connotations. If you change the definition and the connotation doesn’t change, you’re giving people the wrong idea.

The original idea of pay to win was you can’t trust or play this game at all, because you need to keep throwing money at it to stay relevant. Again, maple story and runes of magic are examples of this. Legit triple A titles weren’t called pay to win because they were legit games, even though they came out with expansions that raised power and level cap. It just wasn’t how the term was used. This isn’t an opinion. It really wasn’t how the term was used.

All you can debate now, really is whether it’s fair to change the term you’re using in light of how bad the feelings are associated with that term. In my opinion, changing the definition of something with massively negative connotations creates confusion rather than clarity and muddies the waters. It allows less savory games to operate with impunity because if you’re calling all games pay to win, those other games get a free pass.

There are pay to win games. This isn’t one of them by the definition used years ago, and I do believe that’s fact. If people want to interpret the word literally and change the definition, in my opinion, they’re doing the entire genre a disservice.

Obtena.7952:

GBEW.5947:

Guild wars 2: where you can buy gold directly from the publisher and the fans will gut you for saying its paying to win. Lol.

At this point im juts gonna go ahead and say screw it, you’re wrong. It is 100% paying to win regardless of others opinions.

At this point, I’m just going to thank every single person that takes advantage of GW2’s ‘massive’ P2W opportunities so I can continue to play without paying a monthly fee.

GO WIN!!!

you are correct here, ultimately this monetization plan works because non p2x people feel that its worth whatever annoyances or imbalances may occur, and p2x people feel that its worth it to get whatever advantages/special things real cash offers.

its far from the worst example, and probably one of the better monetization strats if you dont want to pay monthly.

monthly payments are being offered less and less though, because its less profitable, so this is how things will roll, until there is a paradigm shift.

GBEW.5947:

Guild wars 2: where you can buy gold directly from the publisher and the fans will gut you for saying its paying to win. Lol.

At this point im juts gonna go ahead and say screw it, you’re wrong. It is 100% paying to win regardless of others opinions.

At this point, I’m just going to thank every single person that takes advantage of GW2’s ‘massive’ P2W opportunities so I can continue to play without paying a monthly fee.

GO WIN!!!

It’s a scary thought that kids these days don’t know what actual p2w is…

I mean, by today’s perceived definition, just buying the game is p2w and buying any expansions is p2w.

That means GW1 was p2w

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

If your definition of “pay to win” includes anything beyond “can pay real money for a stat advantage over others, thus giving those who pay the ability to win regardless of their skill level”, then your definition is a personal one based on an opinion and cannot be used in a rational discussion.

It is important that clearly defined phrases remain clearly defined. Attempting to misappropriate an unpleasant label that means one thing onto something else so that you can misapply the unpleasantness to the new thing is intellectually dishonest.

problem is that is not what most definitions say. many include being able to buy top teir gear, regardless of weather its possible to earn in game. it is not, and has never been clearly defined in the way that you claim.

one of the most basic p2w methods has been to allow people to buy power others have to spend time grinding to achieve.

Pay to Win is a term that originated in games in which those who paid had a statistical advantage over those who did not.

That is the definition of the term. It is now being incorrectly applied to a variety of things that people don’t like because they want to piggy back on the negative connotation of the term’s definition in order to employ a guilt by association logical fallacy.

Allowing people to buy items that are available through other means would be an example of “Pay for Convenience”.

GBEW is quite obviously a troll
That said, I’m bored, so I’ll play

If you want to see ‘pay to win’, get a game called Age of Wushu Dynasty for your phone. It’s F2P like GW2 is, also with a cash shop.

GW2 sells temporary boosters, toys, cosmetics and other generally silly items. GW2 has basically 2 tiers at endgame: Exotic and Ascended, and ascended is not so much more powerful than exotic that it will make any serious difference. In addition, ascended is not only relatively cheap to make (compared to some other MMOs I have played) but it’s handed out FOR FREE.

AoWD has dailies with free stuff, yes. The AoWD cash shop also sells items to upgrade gear, to obtain gear, to learn skills and to beat the snot out of anyone with less money than you. Does AoWD have cosmetic items? Yes. Does it allow you to literally pay money to beat other people with little effort? Yes.

I’ll be honest, I didn’t even read the OP because I have seen so many of these kinds of threads throughout the years it’s not worth my time, even when I’m bored. But if you want to whine, find something reasonable to whine about.

Also, stop scamming people

HoT (or any expansion released years after main game release) is not p2w because it doesnt do what developers intend with p2w: continously exploit and prey on peoples addiction and competetive nature. It doesnt always apply to you but someone will always give in to the dark side.

There is nothing in GW2 that currently do this. Does GW2 vanilla make you wanna buy HoT? Sure it does. Still not p2w though.

Since I like imaginary examples, heres another scenario of what p2w would be:

Teleport to friend is now available in sPvP and WvW on a 1m cooldown.

Do you need that to play the GW2? No. No more than you need HoT. Thats how people argue " I can still play this game for free, its not p2w!". But good luck when sPvP teams start demanding you have it or when WvW guilds no longer allow members that doesnt have 50 of them in the backpack every night.

You wrote the game is “slightly” pay to win. I certainly agree with the slightly part. Although, it greatly depends on your personal view on what “winning” actually means in this game. Think we have seen that by all of the comments.

Progressing quicker than others doesn’t sound like much of a problem until you get to those able to buy everything (let’s say every single one of the old legendaries, multiple ascended sets as well as +9 (5 stat) infusions on everything) instantly with their money. Kind of silly to say you can’t buy yourself a quick ascended gear because you have to craft those. You can still buy all of the materials instantly.
I certainly consider the ultimate min-maxing of your gear in PvE a long-tern goal and therefor would call that winning.

Honestly, people are always a bit allergic to certain terms like “pay2win”, “grindfest”, “easy”, etc… Everyone has a different difinition of those. You can enjoy crafting gear or legendaries, you can enjoy doing everything yourself from gathering to crafting to polishing. People are free to enjoy anything they wish.
He was simply saying others can do it quicker and easier by spending money. Or more like others can keep up with you while spending much less time on the game.
An older audience means having players with much less free time time but much more disposable income to make up for that. That is why there is the gem-to-gold conversion. People would simply pay RTM companies for the gold instead.

It is still a very player friendly system. The advantage others gain over you with their money is not that crazy. You can easily achieve anything they can buy and yet they can NOT buy everything you can achieve.
To me, the true pay2win games allow you to gain a ridiculous advantage over other players in both PvE and PvE buy spending money over those not able to ever buy let’s say gems. There is no Premium system or any crazy boosters like in other games. I am talking about games with +20% damage/defense boosters in PvP, games with Premium systems that give you +10% increased stats or anything along those lines.
A true pay2win game means non-paying customers are nothing more than cannon fodder to those spending real money on it. They will never be anything other than that. It doesn’t even matter if they play and grind all day long.

Guild Wars 2 is far from being a game like that. You can simply decide to trade your hard earned money for time otherwise spend on grinding OR you can decide not to. You can freely enjoy grinding anything if it is content you enjoy.
Personally, I still love dungeons tours even if I could simply work a few extra hours at work and convert that money into gold. It would be a MUCH quicker way to make gold, sadly.
Why don’t I do it? Because I enjoy the content that I run. I enjoy playing with the people I play with. This applies to most of the people here it seems.

The game is slightly pay2win (just like all of the other MMOs out there).

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

lol

you wrote that micro transaction definition was your understanding too

and you are saying that Hot is not micro transaction therefor it is not P2W haha really?
thats the best word play iv seen but you could still use some work
lets play your game of words

there are multiple definition for P2W but since you insist on sticking to the orgin of the term P2W
lets analyse this

Pay To Win – just like it is written you PAY to WIN , it dosnt state any micro transaction in it and since you pay to buy hot … it counts as a valid point

see easy iv done the same thing as you did

BUT!! my post was not intended to discuss if HOT expansion is P2W or not i just stated there are some Illogical argument points in this thread in terms of defining p2w by stating that buying cosmetics is p2w , i just mentioned the expansion because it is debatable and i agree with some people that it is slightly pay to win

and there are various of variations definitions to this P2W term no matter if people choose to evolve it or not , it is a fact ! that there are multiple definitions

but the true definition in my opinion is having an advantage over other player by paying sum amounts of cash even if it is considerd Pay to Progress

Those who use literal interpretations of words without context are doomed to create misunderstandings.

When you see a phone booth that says out of order, do you try to move it in a different position relative to the phone booth next to it?

Pay to win aren’t words, they’re a phrase and that phrase had a meaning. You’re ignoring the original meaning trying to interpret a phrase literally.

This style of interpreting things isn’t very useful when you’re trying to communicate an idea publicly.

Oh looky here

well my friend since you know the phrase so well
please do and find me the original phrase of Pay to Win
But before you do i must say you wont succeed
because many others share a different definitions
like many others share different opinions

and about the phone booth skit very cute hmm i dont see many phone booths since we evolved a bit well … maybe there are some in prison .

I don’t really need an original quote, considering it was widely discussed for years. People used it to decribe games like Runes of Magic and Maple Story. They didn’t use it to describe Guild Wars 1 or WoW.

By the current definition both Guild Wars 1 and WoW are pay to win, but if you look back five or six years, no one ever said they were.

Guild Wars 1 brought out expansions with new skills, and new professions, some of which were considered the most powerful in the game. Hell you could solo farm the Underworld on a Ritualist. But you had to buy Factions to get it.

If you wanted the most powerful PvE builds you had to buy Eye of the North to get at the very least pain inverter. There were a few amazing skills you could get with Eye of the North.

For a while, in fact they were asking for rank 8 ursans to do content, but you couldn’t be a rank 8 ursan if you didn’t have Eye of the North.

And WoW not only raises the level cap but makes it easier to twink alts, so you get more powerful even on new low level characters, giving you an advantage. And since open world PvP is a thing in WoW, the level cap itself makes open world PvP imbalanced.

But people aren’t walking around six years ago saying these games were pay to win.

Yet now, Guild Wars 2 sells a cosmetic item for cash, that you can get in the trading post (talking about legendaries, since you can’t be ascended for cash) and suddenly this game is pay to win?

Or they bring out new builds or specializations that are better in PvP, but they did that in Guild Wars 1 with certain skills and elites. They even sold a way to unlock skills/elites faster in Guild Wars 1, just by buying something from the cash shop.

But Guild Wars 1 wasn’t known as a pay to win game.

I don’t need an original definition. You need to tell me which MMOs aren’t pay to win by this new definition.

This thread is getting funnier and funnier. There is nothing in the game that if you spend real money on will give you an advantage over anyone else. Nothing. HoT is not pay to win, it’s an Xpac, every Xpac ever has given and “advantage” over people who do not. Be it level cap and better gear, easier ways to get currency, or items that can only be obtained in the Xpac. Now if the only way to get ascended gear and legendary weapons was to buy them from the cash shop for cash only, not with gems, then the game would be pay to win, and then these would have to effect PvP, or be needed to finish the game, like gate you from areas of the game, not be able to finish the story of the game etc.

Saying thing like bank space and trans charges are pay to win it just not true. You can gain charges by playing the game. Gain gold to trade for gems to buy bank space.

All the gem store if for is QoL. You do not need anything from there to play the game, sure some things make life easy, but not one thing there is a must have.

Cute. Clearly I hurt your feelings with that last one, but I’m going to ignore the snarky comment on my education and stick to the issue at hand. There is literally nothing in this game that will give you any kind of advantage that you can’t earn with a little effort. At worst, you have to pay for skins that are purely cosmetic, and really you don’t have to pay for those either. Why don’t you use your little pyramid scheme money you mentioned in your other post to buy gems for gold. Because you can do that.

MrPinks.2015:

Vayne.8563:

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

it dosnt matter my friend there are plenty of definitions for P2W
i just chose this one because i think it is the popular term

and HOT is slightly a P2W compared to F2P players
in terms of elite specializations
i am not saying you cant compete or enjoy the game as F2P in PVP
but some elite classes are slightly better , but again it is debatable
i agree to disagree on this points because in reality i dont really care , i bought the game so…

my point was that saying cosmetics are P2W it is an hilarious joke that has no logic for a P2W argument

Actually there aren’t many defintions, so much as people tailoring the existing definition to completely change it from what it meant originally. You don’t get to make up definitions. That’s not the way it works.

This genre has a history. Words are created to explain certain concepts. If a concept is going to evolve and it’s going to include every single MMORPG on the market, the term loses not only it’s original meaning but all meaning.

Saying something is true doesn’t make it true. Changing the definition only muddies the waters. It accomplishes nothing.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

i never said expansions are pay2win, but thats an entirely new discussion, because the nature of monetization has changed.

back in the day there were few free games that were designed to make money. it was understood you were always going to have to buy games. for many today this is no longer assumed to be true.

the reality is nothing is really “free” and at some point money is going to come into the equation.
pay to win is most likely going to be in any long term game without a subscription(and some with subscriptions) because people tend to be willing to pay for things that increase value. The simplest way to give value in any game is to increase your liklihood of winning.

as far as f2p goes, its becoming not a question of p2w, but more a question of how much p2w can exist while still making the game profitable.

People’s assumptions may have changed. But that doesn’t change the original definition of what pay to win means. Pay to win had a meaning. You could buy power for cash in the cash shop. That’s just not true here. You can’t make it easier to get power, but you can’t buy power.

And you can get all the same stuff by playing in game.

The problem is the original words pay to win had a definition that comes with an implication. You can change the definition but if you can’t get rid of the implication than comes with it, you’re maligning a company for no reason.

Since it never included expansions, if you decide to include them now you pretty much have to include everyone and that means every MMORPG is pay to win. If that’s the case the original value of the words is gone.

It was designed to let people know this game is not a legitimate product because you’d get some sort of competitive edge from paying cash that you couldn’t earn in game.

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

there are plenty of things based on severity. Someone that has a bad day once and awhile is not depressed. You need to meet certain criteria for depression and one bad day a month does not meet that. The criteria defines what depression is. Just like several people have pointed out criteria for p2w games and how gw2 does not meet that criteria. So anyway this thread is a waste of time. Good day to you sir. I hope your more adaptable in real life.

MrPinks.2015:

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

In your own definition you use the word micro transactions. That’s always been my understanding too.

HoT isn’t a microtransaction though. It’s an expansion. It’s not available in the cash shop. You only buy it once.

HoT is therefore not pay to win. Microtransactions never referred to expansions but to stuff sold in the cash shop of any game.

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

But changing the definition of something does negate things. You can’t go back two years and find anyone calling any MMO expansion a pay to win situation, because MMO expansions are simply not considered pay to win. They all make you more powerful. They all give you some kind of advantage other than just more content and no one called the pay to win.

iv read so many comments and i got to say that people need to read the definition of PAY2WIN

Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions.

I agree with people who say HOT is slightly Pay2Win because of the elite classes

so the only argument people can have in terms of P2W is not the cosmetics , bank slots , black lion keys , transmutation charges and ETC
it is only HOT Elite classes

I just get mad at the level of logic people have
that put cosmetics items into P2W argument? really?
Black lion keys? really?
Transmutation charges?
you can buy all of that with gold
and also gain them in game but even if you wont buy them … you are not in a disadvantage against other players , well only if there are fashion competitions .

if you want to really understand what is P2W mmo , i suggest you nice people to go out and try Neverwinter online you’ll have a great time !
and come back to compare it with Guild Wars

phys.7689:

Andraus.3874:

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

this is a false idea, just because there are worse examples of something doesnt negate things.

you think you can win in gw2. YOU CANT WIN IN GW2 THERE IS NO WINNING. you made this thread to try and find comfort from others agreeing with you. oh noes you cant get a legendary in 1 day how dare they. legendary’s provide no advantage. even wow sells currency in their cash shop which you can turn into gold and pay2win. thats the biggest mmo on the market. every mmo copys them. so every mmo is pay2win according to you.

There’s really no point in this thread. Some people don’t understand what a real p2w game is. They probably never played one. At the end of the day you won’t change their ignorance. Maybe someday they will play one and realize how off they were. But no big deal if they want to go through life thinking gw2 is p2w

GBEW.5947:

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

The term Pay-to-Win was coined due to people buying power to defeat other players in PvP matches, duels or open world fights. So, yes, when you say P2W you are inviting discussion of PvP. That’s what the term means.

You’re using it because the the MMO fan base thinks of P2W as very bad. You seem to think that the negative meaning attached to the term enhances your argument. It doesn’t. It means that instead of discussing your concern, we’re discussing whether the term P2W applies. It doesn’t.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

zerorogue.9410:

Guild wars 2 is pay to win, however it is pay to win done stealthy.

The comparison is what you can do with a free account and what you can do with heart of thorns. While most of the options are purely cosmetic there is one big thing that pushes gw2 over the threshold of pay to win. Elite Specializations.

Pretty much every Elite Specialization is a direct upgrade of the class. so much so that if you are playing pvp you must have a elite specialization equipped or be at a disadvantage.

Go take a look at meta battle. Nearly every build that is considered “meta” (or what you should be using) is an elite specialization.

Truthfully Elite specializations should have been available to everyone, or better yet been balanced so they weren’t such a must have.

Every MMO has expansions. Every MMO raises the level cap. Every MMO adds power to expanded characters. By your definition, every single MMO is pay to win. Even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win by those standards.

The term pay to win wasn’t coined for you to complain about having to buy an expansion. The term pay to win was talking about continually having to pay money to the cash shop to stay relevant in the game.

It was how you separated WoW (and other legitimate games) from Maple Story (and other truly P2W) games.

If your personal definition of pay to win includes all MMORPGs, then I can’t see the value in using the term at all.

p2w has never had anything to do with having to pay to stay relevant. p2w most often is when paying provides you with top teir power considerably quicker than by playing normally.

which basically means gw2 became p2w with introduction of ascended, and legendary stat swap, for the average player.

building full ascended without gold requires multiple hours a day of farming for like 6 weeks.
power leveling crafting and buying the pieces takes like 3 hours with gold.

however, its not end of the world grind to get ascended, but yea real cash allows you to go straight pass the last grindy power teir.

but the game was always clear they would allow people to use money to get around thier time based power progression, its just that the progression got a lot greater as time went on.

initially, they could only get exp faster than you, and buy easily obtainable gear faster, that changed.

You are wrong in your statment that ptw is getting to the top faster.

Pay to win is getting stuff thats 5, 10, 20% higher then whats in the game normaly.

This game cuts a pretty fine line in the P2W schema. Getting highest tier stats means crafting. Crafting requires lots of materials that can be bought with gold on the TP, so you can literally, buy yourself to that point. However, you still have to play the game to get the stuff to make the vision crystals.

Ascended gear is for fractals, and gives a moderate boost in WvW and open world via WvW infusions, as small as they are. However, if you nitpick, one could say it is “F2P”.

Its not a bad thing. It generates profit for them to do more for us, so for paying customers, its a win/win.

You have yet to see what a real P2W game is really like. The P2W factor here is so insignficiant that it can be passed off as a joke but if you really that anal about the very insigificant bit of P2W so to prove your point that it is P2W, then so be it, you happy can already.