Guild Wars 2

DeceiverX.8361:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve always hating tanking. Always. Tanking, to me, is the worst thing that’s happened to the MMO genre.

I mean the typical tank and spank scenario is you have a tank, who draws all the aggro and stands there, while being healed by a healer, while everyone else takes it down. What part of this is not completely contrived.

I’m sure Lord of the Rings would have been a much better book if Boromir stood there tanking while Gandalf healed him, and no one was actually in any danger.

Tanking is ludicrous. It’s a mechanic that should not even exist. Yes, it’s lovely to not be able to die. But you know, that sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in which you can die.

I completely agree. It was done in D&D because it made the most sense on paper, and because it also made the game easier to design and play for people to get into. It’s not because it’s good design. Actually, most game designers will blatantly say it’s horrible design when looked at objectively. But it was kept alive through tradition.

And that’s just coming from the perspective of assuming the groups are easy to get.

The reasoning behind why I think tank/support players are upset is because that role simply isn’t needed, and it’s actually slower to find parties willing to play by the trinity ruleset than rushing things down with DPS builds.

In fact, they’re experiencing the exact same problem DPS players have with traditional trinity games; wait 5-6 hours for rare a chance of a party to beat the content. Meanwhile, tanks and supports would be scooped up instantly, because an overwhelming majority of players have more fun playing DPS, a fact cited many times.

The trinity itself is a hard-enforced optimization. You don’t bring a party of all-DPS to kill a boss in traditional games, because it wouldn’t be effective. In GW2, the players define the criteria for optimization in how to beat content. The concept of all-DPS is just a less-enforced optimization model; the trinity encourages the same and more restrictions.

Nothing is stopping players from being able to perform traditional tanking roles in GW2. The stats, gear, and builds are there. The players are the only ones who define it otherwise. Don’t like the player-driven convention? Look to find players who like trinity style and join up with them.

And it wasnt really even done in DnD because nothing forced mobs to attack a “tank.” The toughest characters, defensively, in DnD could be the mage type while some of the best DPS could be put out by the “healer.” The melee character in the heaviest armor with the largest health pool could very well be the group’s main DPS while being “squishy,” compared to the group’s casters.

Any GM that had his monsters ignore the real threat to focus on the group’s most invulnerable character wasnt worth playing with.

Sometimes I miss this as well .. then I remember how much I don’t being asked to tank EVERYTHING.

GBEW.5947:

Svarty.8019:

The game is good, it’s just the combat system that’s poor.

This mmo that has the best combat system in an mmo just doesnt have avery good combat system.

… and there’s no contradiction in your statement.

Objectively speaking you can “tank” with any of the 9 professions of the game, all of them have the tools to be pretty resilient to incoming damage. The real difference with other game is that you don’t have any skill to hold aggro and you won’t have a dedicated healer that will be able to watch your back and maintain by himself your health.

Your health management must first be done by you and secondly done by group joint effort through various mean. Your group may be able to provide you with low health constant regeneration as well as some low burst heal (well now there is revenant’s ventari and the ranger’s druid spec that slightly step out of these boundaries).

Can you give an example of another class from another game that fits your description?

Reason I ask is your question seems misdirected. A tank in the classic sense is about damage mitigation and aggro control. When you talk about dps, healing and defensive support, that’s not necessarily part of a tank’s job or abilities. And is it in context of open world, raids, wvw, or some other game type?

If what you mean is dps with survivability in general, warrior and reaper are the classes that come to my mind.

Btw, whoever told you to go staff guardian was probably trolling you.

Timberfox.3961:

The mobs respawn before I can even take a step. I was wondering if I just dreamed that I had killed the thing. Come on people use a little brain power, huh? Not always but frequently enough to wonder what the heck is going on. Is there no delay between death and respawn?

It would probably help if you said exactly what your group as doing when you had your problem described in the original post. Was it taking a camp/tower/objective in wvw? Was it trying to hold an area for an event in pve? If so, which event? Different events and areas will have different things that determine the respawn rate of mobs. Regardless of your answers, though, Anet isn’t “cheating”.

General Health.9678:

Timberfox.3961:

I am getting really tired of killing a mob, only to have it respawn immediately in the same spot where it just died.

If a mob has a spawn point, it’s always going to spawn there. If you just killed it.. move away from the place you killed it. The solution is player based rather than mob based.

There are times in the game when the mob you just killed will respawn immediately, before you can move away. This used to happen more frequently, but it still does once in a while. That ANet has made an effort to change some of these spawn issues suggests that it is a problem with the game.

That said, the OP’s main issue is something else entirely. Some mob armies spawn in the contested area because they have a lore-based reason for doing so. Some Risen appear in a puff of smoke. Some Flame Legion apparently arrive by riding on (or in) meteors. Some dredge burrow up from the ground. It’s not cheating.

Timberfox.3961:

I am getting really tired of killing a mob, only to have it respawn immediately in the same spot where it just died.

If a mob has a spawn point, it’s always going to spawn there. If you just killed it.. move away from the place you killed it. The solution is player based rather than mob based.

What are you talking about? If your in WvW the enemy probably popped the emergency waypoint that lets them teleport into the keep for a short time.

If your in PvE mobs spawn quite often in various locations during events. Infact they come from specific routes typically so that builds that use things like turrets, traps, banners, spirts etc… can set up in advance.

What you have said has NOTHING to do with anet “cheating”. Just you being salty because things apparently didnt go your way and I am assuming you died.

Your gonna have to provide ALOT more information if you want people to take you seriously with this kind of accusation.

How are the devs cheating here? If you take too long to kill all of the enemy mobs, then yeah, you run the risk of them respawning. That’s not cheating; that’s how the game is.

Djinn.9245:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

An alternative for that 800 gems is a mule, an alt that’s used to hold items.

One storage expander purchase can only hold 250 more of any one item. A mule starts off with 20 slots and its inventory can be expanded from there. You can park it either by a chest for a daily harvest (and go to WvW or PvP as needed) or by a bank for easy access.

I’m assuming you’re talking about a mule on the same account, which might cost a new character slot if you’ve already used them all. I have storage issues but I don’t have mules for this reason. I’ve heard of people having a second account, then you would have the bank slots also. Does anyone have an opinion on doing that?

The OP has an inventory problem (he can’t deposit more Obsidian shards) and the person above me suggested something that can be bought for 800 gems to help his problem. My reply was suggesting an alternative item s/he could buy for that same 800 gems. So yes, my reply is saying s/he could look into buying another character slot.

Another possibility is to use a char that you’ve abandoned as a mule, if you have one. Or a char that’s only used for role playing. Or only used for PvP.

If you have storage problems and don’t/can’t clean out your inventory then a mule is a good option. If $10€ is a problem financially there’s using ingame gold to buy all or part of the 800 gems. If it’s a philosophical mindset that says no chars used for storage then the 800 gems storage expander is your best bet for that 800 gems.

As too second accounts, they are mildly useful for storage. You have access to another mat storage panel however you have to switch accounts to do so. However a storage expander costs $10€. New accounts currently cost more so not really a bargain on that point. And you can’t put your account bound items in there, which can tie up a fair bit of your bank.

You could always buy more space to allow more than 250(up to 2000 per stack). You will need the shards at some point.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Storage_Expander

GBEW.5947:

?? how dense can you guys be? I can literally solve my biggest issue in game right now with my credit card. Yet it isnt paying to win? Wtf.

1. The term “pay to win” began with games which sell stuff in the store that give an advantage in competitive play. These are typically significant boosts to stats which could not be obtained any other way (i.e. by playing the game). Those without were simply not able to compete with those who had them. By this usage of the term, there is no P2W in GW2.
2. Lately, and specifically with regard to GW2, the term “Pay to Win” has been used to refer to any outlay of cash to get something the player wants. All sorts of things get pointed to, from “winning” the game by getting skins to avoiding perceived “grind.” According to this usage, both the gem store and the gems-to-gold exchange are P2W.

Those who disagree with you are doing so most likely because they don’t accept the attempts to redefine the term. I agree with them. Just because a term can evolve does not mean that it should.

The question of whether the gems-to-gold exchange devalues things like Legendary Weapons or Asc. Armor is a worthy topic. However, there are negative connotations attached to the term P2W. Those negative connotations came about because of the disdain for those who won fights in PvP by using their credit card. Since that is not what’s happening in GW2, those connotations do not apply to the situation you’re referring to, yet they are hardwired into people’s thoughts when they see P2W. Thus, using the term in discussing the situation means that all you will get is discussion about the use of the term.

Man the theme of pay 2 win has changed so much since back from when i used to play online consistently… I mean if we’re talking PvE or WvW ive seen people in Masterworks demolish people in Ascended gear…

Back when I could play games a lot Pay 2 Win meant buying power. Getting a definitive advantage over other players that those players can not attain unless they also wanted to spend money. Playfully called Wallet Warriors

Everything here is just paying for convenience. Is your time worth more to you than your money or is your money worth more than your time? You decide and no matter what you decide it doesnt stop those players from attaining the exact same thing as you.

In the recent months since ive come back Ascended Gear has been more and more common… Fractal Daily Missions hand out ascended equipment like candy on halloween.
Some reward tracks in PvP have a chance of giving ascended equipment.
And you are guaranteed Ascended Gear from Raiding WIN OR LOSE and raiding isnt as hard as everyone makes it out to be.(obviously faster if you win though)

In the couple months since returning to the game with some friends we have gotten more Ascended gear than we know what to even do with from on-off Raiding, Fractal Daily and PvP without spending Gems or Gold.

For me people throw around the term Pay 2 Win far too often that its lost most of its meaning… I mean hell theres 5 Tiers of it now?

To be honest, what does it matter? How other ppl get their gear or if they pay for their progression is utterly irrelevant. More power to them if a player chooses to spend their money to progress.

Whether a P2W label is accurate or not, they key thing is that beyond dlcs and expacs, the game does not force p2w to stay competitive or to as the only means to an end. It doesn’t improve your skill and it doesn’t let you skip content.

So yeah it might have some slight P2W elements depending on how you want to define p2w, but it isn’t implemented to the detriment of the game

the only p2w element exist in GW2, if you even can consider it as p2w, is the advantage of account with HoT over one who doesn’t, in terms of availability of elite specs. even then, a skilled one legged vanilla mesmer can win against a crap chronomancer.

Is it play-to-win? In the general sense? No. Is it pay-to-buy gold from ANet through the gem system? Definitely. Can that turn into a pay-to-buy gold that one can then use to buy better equipment (i.e. legendaries), and thus ‘pay-to-win’?

In that specific criteria, yes. It is. If one is willing to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars or pounds to gain that benefit, then yes.

Again, only if one is looking at the given criteria in that narrow spectrum. But in the general sense? No, it’s not.

For example, in Star Trek Online, I paid $100.00 to be able to buy that Tholian ship. That ship destroys everything in its path with its nuke-everything-in-sight pets.

That was a pay-to-win scenario. Nothing in Guild Wars 2 comes close.

GBEW.5947:

legendaries are kittening expensive and should take a long time to obtain.

A reasonable opinion, and a completely separate issue than pay to win.

If p2w isn’t about power you can buy with money but about whatever you decide it is, then I’ve decided that buying fashion from the gemstore is p2w. If someone has bought an armor set that I don’t have and that’s not currently available then he won over me because…. Fashion Wars 2! If a cosmetic item is put on sale and someone buys it an hour before me then he won also because he was more beautiful than me for that hour.

So you see, once you decide to change the meaning of p2w from the real meaning to fit your grievance of the day then you head into nonsensical territory.

Buying convenience or time (or fashion) isn’t pay to win. Not even in a small amount.

GBEW.5947:

i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats.

I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning.

It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest.

Or your definitions of what you think winning is are not in the majority. And quite frankly, if you are looking for a game where the grind is absolute, you’re not playing the right game. ANet has said many times convenience items will be sold. Not the power itself.

The gold trading feature is also not sold by ANet. Any gold transactions through it are defined by the players, ANet being an intermediary to moderate prices based on supply/demand. The gold came from somewhere; likely, it came from the people who had to take the time to get their ascended armor without purchasing anything.

Basically, you’re complaining about having the ability to “win” on your definitions despite the other people who are selling the money already having “won” potentially years ago.

GBEW.5947:

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

GBEW.5947:

Learn to read.

GBEW.5947:

?? how dense can you guys be? I can literally solve my biggest issue in game right now with my credit card. Yet it isnt paying to win? Wtf.

GBEW.5947:

So your saying don’t play guild wars? Uh no.

I was really trying to look at this and gather others thoughts however most of you just seem like flaming is your pass-time hobby so im just gomna go ahead and throw my opinions out there as fact from now on.

I’ll reiterate:

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

You’ve deviated fast. Seems to me you’re not looking for a discussion but instead just wanted to rally a ton of people behind you to try and scream P2W when in reality, the game is far from it.

By the gaming community’s convention at large, not yours, the game is not P2W. The people selling gold have probably already achieved maxed out everything and are just selling the gold for cosmetic items, because in their opinion, being the best-dressed is very important to them.

GBEW.5947:

i am now a firm believer that the guild wars community either A, Has no idea what they are talking about. Or B, simply likes to argue when their views are questioned.

No, you literally asked for a discussion, and were the first to break of that healthy discussion.

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

GBEW.5947:

the fact remains that this is pay to win in some peoples eyes and most have lost the meaning or concept on what pay to win is. Refer to sig.

And what is P2W in your eyes is not what the convention of P2W means. That’s not losing meaning or concept. I came from/worked for a popular game a decade ago which had massive stat variance and a literal endless treadmill of grind to being better. It has a system which you could buy characters, gear, money, account-bound items – pretty much anything – and these things were directly sold by the players, set at their own prices, with only a profit tax. Given roughly $30,000 USD, you could outfit a top-tier character. Given around $100 a month, you could be competitive in the PvP. And there was always a way to be increasingly better by spending more money, because the stats always got better, even if only by a margin of .1% (and sometimes as large as almost 200%), and someone was always willing to sell what they got.

And the game was open-PK, meaning people could deny you the ability to farm or do literally anything if you tried to get out of buying things by farming. And they did.

That’s Pay2Win. On your definition, and the community at-large’s.

GW2, you skip a bit of the grind if you spend money to do things. Okay? What does it matter, though? You said you look for optimal stats. Nobody’s stopping you. Ascended gear has fixed stats. They’re not different between players, and they’re never going to improve, and nothing new to power-creep it is coming. As soon as you reach ascended, if the gear grind is fun for you, then you’ve finished the game entirely forever. Time to go play a new game, because then what makes it fun to you is over. If it is what’s fun for you, why does it make you upset other people can do it faster? So what? If you have fun grinding, it means literally nothing at what rate other people play the game. They’re not taking away from your fun. You’re denying yourself fun because of arbitrary jealousy or them taking the “easy way” out of what is pretty much exclusively a time-gated experience. The real likelihood is they’re spending similar time to you, just doing different things, like WvW. Because in their eyes, they see PvP as what’s fun and what matters, and GW2 does an excellent job at keeping the power tightly-sealed at endgame.

To me, you’re playing the wrong game. If you want something about the grind with no shortcuts, go look for a subscription title. Anything that doesn’t take a monthly fee will be selling shortcuts, because that’s how GW2 stays afloat. They need to pay the bills. Better doing that than having expensive item malls which are strict dependencies to acquire the best stats at endgame, which is what most other titles offer. Because then that invalidates the grind, and skews every other facet of the game. That’s the convention of P2W.

“lol ur mad”

Because people do not agree with you, they are wrong and upset. Yup, you’re real fun to have a discussion with, particularly when you tell anyone (and now everyone) who disagrees with you that they’re just mad.

Honestly, if this was a troll, it’s quite the failure. I think the intent is to make other people upset and start flaming while losing their cool, not you

I enjoy posting long-winded replies, since I view the forums more fun than the game currently.

GBEW.5947:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

OP has established that the game has a “pay” option. They have yet to provide evidence that there’s something to be “won” by choosing to spend RL cash to get gems.

Learn to read.

You asked what we thought.

GBEW.5947:

i would rather have a healthy discussion

Responding to someone else’s views with “learn to read” won’t promote a healthy discussion.

GBEW.5947:

When i first bought this game i was kind of shocked that i was able to buy gold with gems, it screams p2w.

If you start off assuming something, it’s hard to see evidence of alternative explanations.

GBEW.5947:

.now that i am on the grind for a legendary and my ascended armors, gold seems to be my only issue, and the fact that if i so chose, i could very well just skip the entire process has started to get on my nerves a bit.

The fact that something gets on your nerves doesn’t establish a “pay to win” scenario. What is it that you are “winning” if you buy gems and convert it to gold? You reach your goal more quickly, but in the end, all that you did was trade money for time. You won’t end up with any advantage over others who play more hours and/or more efficiently.

In other words, you’ve established that the game offers the ability to “pay”, but not that there’s anything to win by doing so.

GBEW.5947:

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

GBEW.5947:

This is just a dumb statement. i’m 100% sure i don’t need to explain why.

GBEW.5947:

Learn to read.

GBEW.5947:

i am now a firm believer that the guild wars community either A, Has no idea what they are talking about. Or B, simply likes to argue when their views are questioned.

lol ur mad.

Seems a bit contradictory.

I think the option to exchange Gold to Gems and Gems to Gold is quite generous and game-healthy on ArenaNet’s part. It gives us an option to acquire Gem Store items sans cash, and allows those that usually buy game currency from Gold-Sellers a safer option. I’m unsure if this applies to OP referencing this statement:

GBEW.5947:

multiple risks being either you never end up receiving the gold you paid for (this happened A LOT when i was buying items on diablo 2.) or you getting caught and banned.

GBEW.5947:

Behellagh.1468:

I don’t count buying in game gold because with RMT sites, anyone can buy in game gold. All that official channels provide is letting the studio/publisher in on a slice of that market.

This is the best point against my opinion that i have seen however in games that dont have this option, buying gold is generally frowned upon and there is multiple risks being either you never end up receiving the gold you paid for (this happened A LOT when i was buying items on diablo 2.) or you getting caught and banned.
i for one really enjoy the idea of the people behind the game profiting rather than some kitten in taiwan so don’t get me wrong it definitly has its strong points, But for those of us that don’t want to spend absurd amounts of money that i quite frankly need to cover insurance, Bills, gas, food, diapers etc. i just can’t even if i did want too.
Which makes me think it is little kittened up that someone can buy the game, make a brand new character, and buy themselves all the legendary items. The argument for this that i have seen however is that legendary items arent any better than ascended, to that i say screw you. Legendary items are the pinnacle of pve rewards and you should never be able to just simply buy them with actual money, However with the way the game is right now i also think you should be able to buy them with in game gold. So this is impossible i know. It still is FACT that legendaries are sought after pieces most spend quite some time to obtain. If you don’t think this is winning then i don’t know what else to say to you.

Keep in mind, there are four legendaries in the game that can’t be bought at all, and they’re more prestigious than any of the original legendaries.

if the gem store offered anything you couldn’t get in game, like better stats, unlocking all waypoints, etc, then I’d call it p2w. as it stands now, I don’t.

you don’t automatically win the game (in any sense of the word) by having ascended gear.

Tell me how is it pay to win when an upscaled player in white gear get a precursor from an open world event while you, with your 10000$ kit, only achieve to get some green trash?
Pay to win lol.
The only one winning here is Anet.

I’m somehow amused by the direction our OP took after the first post. Anyway, GW2 is not p2w, no matter whether you can obtain ingame currency via money or not. As a previous poster said, we may have the “pay” part, but not the “win”.

This is how the phrase “Pay to Win” is supposed to be defined:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

I cannot stress enough, how impossible that is to do in this game. Ascended armor cannot be bought, it has to be crafted. You cannot circumvent the acquisition of several account bound items needed to craft them, either. Yes, you can buy a legendary, for somewhere around $350-$400 of real money, but what advantage are you really getting? I mean, perception is everything, and it’s pretty widely accepted that the gap between exotic and ascended is negligible in all game modes. So, where is this perception that buying a legendary weapon—which is exactly as powerful as an ascended weapon of the same type—considered pay to win?

Who changed the definition? Why did we suddenly start muddying that definition? Because a game offered people the opportunity to purchase currency in a game? I think we need to instead look at what advantages that currency provides, rather than shallowly scrutinizing the business model.