Guild Wars 2

The thing is we do know quite a bit. All the evidence we examined. The short stories. The living world. The contributions of the NPC.

Scarlet is the epitome of genius and madness are two sides of the same coin. She went too far, and in my opinion was introduced to the part of her that knows she and the other Sylvari are dragon minions. The Pale Tree tried to warn her away, knowing that without her influence Ceara would go mad. This plays in to the idea that the Pale Tree (and perhaps other trees like her) are keeping the Sylvari safe from dragon influence.

Scarlet ignored this and went in to Omadd’s machine, where the dragon took hold. Her vision of the vine wrapped around the Pale Tree was not, imo, Scarlet herself but the dragon. When she got out her purpose became walking Mord. She forged Alliances by claiming she would give each group something they craved. This is where she got all the tech and shock troops required to form a big enough distraction from her drilling.

I mean what more is there to know? Caithe’s connection, yes, and confirmation about dragon minions, but they’re going to draw that out because frankly it makes for more and imo better story if not every single detail is spelled out in a single update.

Don’t forget that we still have one actual final update on the 18th of March that show’s the aftermath of the whole living story. Hopefully we’ll get some of our answers there and possible in game confirmation that it is Mordremoth ( I know it as plain as anything but at least an acknowledgement by some of the main NPCs like Destiny’s Edge or the DE 2.0)

You’re not alone Blurk, and thank you for your write up on your opinion.

I was not suprised, but also not let down because I already expected this.

You are correct in a lot of unanswered questions, dropped plots (Zephyr Sanctum??), and the lack of supsense in the finale.

Make the best of it and enjoy the little things that the game has to offer. There are still valuable points to have hope for (Tengu, Wizards Tower, Crystal Desert, and maybe even…. Cantha!??)

DarcShriek.5829:

Was Scarlet influenced or corrupted?

We don’t know, but given the yellow “growth” on her face in the final cinematic, and her line of “Tyria will bow to a new master” I’m guessing corrupted.

DarcShriek.5829:

If she was merely influenced, then there is no reason the Nightmare Court couldn’t have been used if they are also influenced.

And yet… we do see some Nightmare Courtiers working with Scarlet. And no reason has been given to why they agreed to help.

DarcShriek.5829:

If she was corrupted, then that destroys the whole sylvari can’t be corrupted position.

Scarlet’s a unique case though. Omadd’s machine broke something – likely what kept sylvari from being corruptable.

The rest of your argument is moot, because Scarlet is not a standard situation. She’s an outright unique case, ergo her situation does not apply to any other sylvari.

DarcShriek.5829:

Because she is only influenced, like the Nightmare Court, then the Nightmare Court could have done this as well. Why would Mordy wait until a random connection is made with a random person? A connection that may not have happened at all when he has a team of people already at his disposal.

Or maybe he wasn’t waiting. Maybe he has been trying, but the act of Omadd’s machine is what made his attempts finally succeed.

We know too little to be certain. We don’t even know why sylvari are immune. We just know that they are.

DarcShriek.5829:

Please show me a reference that states categorically that all dragon minions have to have limited speech?

Other than widespread observation of all dragon minions ever?

Mainly this step. But I don’t think there’s any “single reference” that outright state this., the closest is in the link, and Trahearne’s mention of dragon minions being single-minded here – likely many many others too. This is an observation – the weakest minions are also the dumbest; the grunts of dragon minions are mindless zergers; they swarm their enemies rather than deploy tactics of any kind, and it is only the more intelligent minions (most notably lieutenants and champions) that deploy tactics. And these are so uncommon that it surprises even Trahearne when they begin using tactics.

DarcShriek.5829:

Also, I don’t recall Svanir spreading corruption. The real champion in this case was Drakkar, it was Drakkar that corrupted Svanir. If Drakkar could create Svanir, there is no reason a pale tree equivalent couldn’t create Malyck.

True, a champion of Modremoth would be capable of creating another champion, but Svanir was singleminded in causing destruction and killing nonetheless. Even the champions are not so unique like Labwan.

DarcShriek.5829:

Would he really be all that different? Consider Svanir and The Great Destroyer, both of whom existed while their masters slumbered. Both were somewhat specialized, however, it’s not Malyck that would be special, but Malyk’s tree. Is there any reason to believe that Malyck’s tree would be any less capable than the Pale Tree?

Firstly, you’re comparing Malyck to dragon champions. Y’know, the top dogs of all of dragon minions. The guys who spread corruption wherever they go, who lead the armies and fanatically (just like any other minion) follow their dragon. Does this really sound like Malyck to you?

And it would be Malyck that’s special, because if it were the tree that’s special but Malyck was just your average dragon minion, then he would be on par to risen thralls – he’d have very limited speech, would be nearly (or fully) mindless, and would have no free will and no choice of self-decision or self-awareness. Does this sound like Malyck to you?

No, it just isn’t possible. Unless he’s so specialized of a minion that he’s akin to Labwan the Deceiver, who was so unique of a minion that her personality befuddled Trahearne, who had spent 23 years (all of his life) studying Risen and Orrians.

DarcShriek.5829:

Why didn’t Anet use Faolain if the Nightmare Court are related to Mordy? BTW, I still don’t think Mordy has any influence on the Nightmare Court.

Because Nightmare Court are not corrupted. They still feel the need to fight the dragons. They are still capable of free will, to an extent.

As I said, influence is not the same as corruption. The Sons of Svanir are influenced, but they are not corrupted.

To be corrupted is to become an Elder Dragon. Thus far – and it seems Mordremoth has found a way around it given Scarlet’s personality at the end – the sylvari are immune to all Elder Dragon’s corruption. But immune to their influence? No, they are not.

Highly unlikely. He holds no traits common amongst all dragon minions. He’d have to be amongst the very very rare exceptions, making him a specialized minion which is possible but for such a minion to be made before the dragon’s awakening….

It could be that Malyck is a lying little kitten that works for Mordy.

We know little about Malyck, so from here on in there will be a large amount of speculation.

Malyck is seen to have arrived in the Brisban Wildlands and eventually northern Caledon Forest by his pod drifting downstream and him subsequently awakening.

He had no dream that he can recall, and since the pod was not from the Pale Tree, it is obvious that he was born of another Tree.

There are many things he could be, then.

One, he could be a Firstborn of this unseen Tree. Since we have no other information of the other Tree and he promised to return to the Grove with an army of other-sylvari, and he never showed up later in any storyline, we can assume that there must be a reason he did not return in time to fight Zhaitan. One of these reasons could be that he was among the first to be born of the Tree and as such there weren’t enough other-sylvari to constitute a large enough group to send to the grove.

That’s obviously not the only possible explanation. He could be in a similar generation as our player character sylvari and was either not believed when he returned to his Grove, or the sylvari culture in his Grove is suffused with negativity. It’s even possible that the reason he was drifting downstream was because the Tree he came from was destroyed by a possible parallel Nightmare Court, which also explains his lack of Dream.

We do not know whether all Trees infuse a Dream into their sylvari. However, since we have one Tree that does infuse a Dream, we can assume that Dream infusion has something to do with the biological or magical properties of the seed itself. The alternative would be something Ventari and/or Ronan did to the seed before it became full grown, although how they would cause the Dream to form would be a mystery at this stage.

Curious to see what others thought of what I’ve thought of and what they themselves could think.

The following is far from finished, but I thought it would be nice to make a start with this.

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Mordremoth woke up around Magus Falls, following the cinematic. Not under Lion’s Arch.

I don’t see what’s weird about a sylvari heavily influence – if not corrupted – aiding Mordremoth’s rise, while a good sylvari not influenced nor corrupted aided in killing it. That’s like saying it’s weird Svanir, a norn, was serving Jormag, when norn are working to kill Jormag.

Well i do not mind the “you did it” part, even though it is their writing and not our actual “winning”, however they might want to word it better.
Maybe in points where actual skill is involved.

If they would put in a real challenge at the end, maybe resulting in a dungeon that stays, instead of a mindless Zergfight and a “one button ending” then i would actually say: “yes i did it.”

However that is not the case. It is nice that they want to give us that feeling to acomplish something and it is always something that bothered players if they are alongside NPCs and scripted events, however in the end it is all how it is delivered.
Magnus is a straight man and is just bold with it. However they should cut it back a bit.
In the end it was a joined effort and no single person win.

Even though i can say: “yes i finaly killed Scarlet”

In other forum I wrote before update that “I would hate if in the final battle against Scarlet, the player would be the one that kills her in an instanced area”, well … it happened just like the way I didn’t want.
Now all players that saw that cut-scene is THE slayer of Scarlet, that makes the story inconsistent, in the future how they will tell who killed Scarlet?

They are simply addressing something that many players complained about (even back in GW1).

I guess it’s hard to find a good balance between giving too much and too little credit.

But well, in many ways it’s the same for the Personal Story, in some cases. Canonically, I doubt there are as many “heroes of Shaemoor” as there should be, looking at all the surrounding players. In fact, the title sounds more like the player was the only civilian getting involved.

Those are the vocal minority. We should talk more loudly than them to make our point valid.
Anyway, I totally agree with you with the idea that our character should not get ALL the credit. It doesn’t feel right at all to see hundred of people fighting beside us just for us to get all the credit. It feels like kormir or Traherne but backward.

Lutinz.6915:

The Nightmare could easily be the work of some previously dormant champion or perhaps a corrupted ‘Pale Tree’. We see Sons of Svanir use a Havroun to gain access to the Mists. Perhaps Modremoth or one of his minions could have corrupted one of the Pale Tree’s siblings to gain access to the Dream in a similar fashion.

Nice theory. I love the idea of a champion rather than Mordremoth causing Scarlet’s insanity. But it should be noted that Malyck held no Dream of Dreams experience (it wasn’t amnesia), so combined with the White Stag means the Dream is not something the sylvari trees hold alone, but rather seems to be locational.

Doesn’t prevent the champion-causes-the-Nightmare idea, but takes it a new route.

Hmmm… the Great Jungle Wurm’s hinted to be the source of the Wychmire Swamp darkness, and hinted to not be the ultimate source, and it never dies (it wakes up and goes back underground when timer resets). Perhaps the Great Jungle Wurm, with such proximity to the biggest Nightmare Court base, is the source of the Nightmare as a mere champion for Mordremoth?

Natsu.2589:

Never said it was their goal. Your own words: “They just need magic to stay awake”. So, when they have consumed all magic, they go to sleep again. I suppose, the same thing would happen, if some ominous beings lock away magic in something like, say, magical stones … ? Or if some weirdo decided to disrupt the magic flow? … Or if the magic sinks on a very low level, within a short time frame? I think, you get the point.

Your wording made it sound like their goal was to consume magic and then go back to sleep.

Natsu.2589:

Nothing ergo. I don’t even know yet, how these ley lines function exactly. I just read “disrupt”, and normally this word goes along the lines of “deny sb. smth.”, and not “redirect”. In the end, I have my problems believing, that piercing a nexus of magical energy somehow conveniently “redirects” the magical flow, precisely to one comparatively tiny spot inside of Tyria.

And yes, I saw the cinematic several times. To be honest, I don’t see a tangible diversion. I see an explosion and one, or maybe different streams of magic flowing through the ground. Finally there is a maw in the ground, that supposedly inhales some of the magic. It’s not necessarily an evidence, however. I’m not convinced, at this point, that there is nothing more than meets the eye.

disrupt doesn’t mean deny, but to alter. Which can lead to redirecting. The fact that the Elder Dragon – stated to be a dragon, at least, and a loud one at that much like Kralkatorrik’s awakening (Edge of Destiny, page 341 if you have the book) – began moving and consuming the magic…

It seems pretty obvious she was feeding Mordremoth.

Though considering it passes through Thaumanova, a known location of multiple ley lines, perhaps what she did was prevent flow of magic to the other ley lines, thus “blocking” all paths but one.

Natsu.2589:

What you see there, is an assumption of your engineer. Scarlet was at least partly insane, and passed crash curses of every Rata Sum academy. Do you really believe, your character figured it all out, with a simple glance at a console?

There’s more than just that, and non-engineers don’t get it. Plus it’s more than just a simple glance at a console – it’s everything that Scarlet’s been doing. From beginning to end, including – perhaps most importantly – the stuff in Scarlet’s lair under the Priory and the Study of Scarlet during Edge of the Mists.

Natsu.2589:

No. To be honest, I don’t like your attitude much. Deliberately so or not, for me, you somehow leave behind a rather arrogant impression. I’ve given you a direction, you can dig through the side yourself, if you want. I think it was somewhere in the “Flameseeker Chronicles” column. Look it up, believe me or not – I really don’t care.

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

I’ve answered in a couple of different threads about the current speculation going on about sylvari and possible corruption. This is why I decided to dedicate a small thread to it for future reference and clarification.

Note, none of this is actually confirmed, it’s still theorycrafting/speculation, nothing more and nothing less.

A current theory is that sylvari born from the Pale Tree (there is at least one more tree where sylvari are born from out there, this is why I specifically say born from the Pale Tree) are ‘blessed’ with an immunity to dragon corruption. Said immunity being that they before getting corrupted.

Now, the theory about sylvari is based on that single line, I’ll repeat it one more time:
Sylari born from the Pale Tree.

Why is the Pale Tree so important? The Pale Tree has the Dream of Dreams in contrast to the other tree we know of. This makes it likely that said immunity origins from the Dream. It’s plausible that sylvari who are under the influence of the dream can not be corrupted.

We know that after Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine her connection to the Dream got severed. In other words: she is not under the influence of the dream anymore. This is different from the Soundless. The Soundless sylvari use continuous meditation to block themselves from the Dream but they still have a connection to it.

This makes Scarlet different. When Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine and her connection got, well, disconnected, she was vulnerable to Elder Dragon corruption. And I’ll say that again, Elder Dragon corruption. This means; every Elder Dragon, not specifically or exclusive to Mordremoths corruption.

This also makes it quite plausible that every sylvari spawned from Malyck’s tree is vulnerable to Elder Dragon corruption.

I hope I’ve been able to clarify a few things. However, I want to add a few more thing:

1: Sylvari, being from the Pale Tree or Malyck’s tree, are not born as dragon minions.
Sylvari who don’t have a connection the Dream of Dreams are vulnerable to corruption just like every other race is

2: Sylvari are not specifically tied to Mordremoth (until stated otherwise by devs)

3: Scarlet is not confirmed to be corrupted. It’s plausible, yes, but nothing more then that. To me, her ego indicates that she still had a free will. And a free will implies to non-corruption.

4: To continue on the above: the difference between corruption and influenced is that;

Corruption equals being brainwashed. A corrupted dragon minion is unconditionally devoted to his or her Elder Dragon. They lack free will.

Influenced is still being a devoted minion to his or her Elder Dragon but with free will. A good example are the Sons of Svanir and Icebrood.

Icebrood are corrupted beings by Jormag, Sons of Svanir are a cult. They are Norns influenced by Jormag, lured with promises of power.

@Darc: Scarlet passed through the special courses of all three colleges before going into the machine which was, by all appearances, what allowed the entity into her mind.

So I would disagree that she got smarter. Wiser, sure, since she knew more. But not so much smarter. But everyone gets wiser everyday – or should.

@Silver: “Tyria will bow to a new master” kind of seems like she was intentionally trying to feed the dragon, especially given the line seen if you take an engineer to the instance and interact with the panels.

@hardy: It’s not the last, as Kralkatorrik woke up after the sylvari came to be and they’re immune to becoming Branded (Branded and Risen are the explicit statements of no-sylvari-corruption-possible).

@Darc: I don’t see her losing her free will over time in her journals. Rather, her losing her sanity. Then she succumbed to the entity (be it Mordremoth, a champion of Mordremoth, or someone who’d want to see the dragon rise but isn’t related to it) rather than go insane. This doesn’t show a lack of free will per se. Just bowing to a new master (to use her terms for Tyria).

And what “freakish skills” does Scarlet have that isn’t derived from her born-with genius?

I really wish people stop claiming the sylvari are dragon minions as if it were a fact.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to support that claim. It’s just raw speculation and all support the theory had has been debunked!

I wouldn’t view ED corruption as something like radios or cell phone reception lol.
I’m sure the corruption is down to the DNA, or magical.
That the corruption has always been in the Sylvari, just somehow the pale tree has been able to stop it.

Of course the EDs influince for Sylvari in the form of dreams and nightmares, perhap because the ED itself was still asleep.
Maybe Scarlets way to stop the nightmares was to wake the dragon up.

Though we don’t know 100% how the link between Sylvari, Pale Tree and Mormedoth works so…soon maybe? Lol

Or it was Abbadon corrupting Scarlet the whole and he’s not dead because magic.

We see risen in Fireheart Rise. We see hostile Icebrood in Metrica Province. Jormag was on the northern edge of the continent (off even the Eye of the North map of GW1) and yet we had Drakkar and Svanir as minions to it.

And it isn’t yet confirmed that Scarlet was corrupted by Mordremoth. Just influenced/manipulated by.

@Konig
I believe the soundless are still connected to the dream and require regular intensive meditation to keep it out. Even with these efforts, the dreams effects are not entirely eliminated as Scarlet’s defenses were.

How high is the range of influence of an Elder Dragon. By this I mean how far can it send its minions and still be able to control them.

Scarlet traveled over huge parts of Kryta and the Shiverpeaks and as we now know one of Mordremoth’s champions. Mordremoth itself though awakens somewhere in the Magus Falls. A lot of distance and the dragon was only sleeping while controling her.

Tamias.7059:

I’m not sure this quite works – Scarlet’s insanity began long before she was disconnected from the Dream.

Her insanity began with Omadd’s machine. This is when she became separated from the Dream. As stated in this interview, iirc.

Tamias.7059:

If only non-dreaming sylvari (and I am certainly not convinced that Malyck is one of these, if there are any) can be corrupted by Mordremoth, then it would mean that the Nightmare has nothing to do with Mordremoth

I don’t see why you argue this. Firstly, the Nightmare cannot be corruption. The Nightmare Court cannot be corrupted. Their immunity prevents corruption. If the Nightmare was corruption, all Courtiers would die upon conversion.

But if it’s influence instead, that’s a different matter. A means to twist and perhaps shatter the Dream of Dreams, thus allowing corruption later on. Or if it’s the closest to corruption that can occur while tied to the Dream.

I’d expand more, but I must leave now.

Could Omadd’s device be a possible explanation for why Scarlet might be the first corrupted Sylvari? Prior to Omadd’s device sylvari simply die to dragon corruption, but Omadd’s device removed the protection that causes them to die and that’s why Scarlet was able to be corrupted?

Nike.2631:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Not really relevant, but DarcShriek, when was the last time you saw a giant dredge? (Not counting Molten bosses who are big but not big enough)

The legendary Great One, the Liberator, he who doft his stout helm before the start of Rest-Shift, creating what the unenlightened races call “Dredgehat Island”

He shall rise from justly-earned slumber and lead us to glorious freedom.

Believe, Comrades. Believe.

I do believe, in the idea Molenin’s descendants finally brutally murdered every single Kurzick in Echovald and took the stonewoods for their own. To repay them for their “kindness” during the time of the Afflicted and Betrayer’s Return.

Yeah, Tequatl is the only one that seems to have to do absolutely nothing to do with it. I thought they’d use the tail Rox cut off somehow in the end. I mean you don’t mention a loaded dragon tail in the first act and then never smack Scarlet over the head with it, right? :P

That said, Scarlet overall is… kind of messy. It got a lot better towards the end, mainly because they mostly abandoned the wacky “Let’s cook Faren because why not!” thing she had going on when first introduced. That part just doesn’t fit with her backstory at all imo. She basically was the ambitious mad scientist archetype, who was driven to insanity by the voice in her head.

If you think about it, she does actually make a lot of sense as a villain for GW2 – if the game has a unifying theme, both story and design-wise, it was always different people/races coming together and fighting something they can’t individually. Scarlet is pretty much the antithesis of that – too arrogant to ever actually trust anybody, she tries to solve everything on her own, which ultimately leads to her downfall.

Even the seemingly random alliances make more sense in that light, they are basically a twisted mockery of the races of Tyria banding together. Not really reaching out to each other, but being manipulated by Scarlet to do her bidding.

So yeah, on a wide, thematic level, I think she actually works pretty well. The devil is in the detail, however, I agree that she could have been implemented way better. The whole Mystery angle just didn’t work for this kind of character imo. It would have been way better if she would have been introduced as Ceara, maybe even meet Braham and the gang before going crazy.

AsgarZigel.4530:

I thought they’d use the tail Rox cut off somehow in the end. I mean you don’t mention a loaded dragon tail in the first act and then never smack Scarlet over the head with it, right? :P

She was hauling it about for Rytlock, he told her to toss it out cuz it smells. This happened in Origins of Madness.

AsgarZigel.4530:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Why does she react so negatively to Kasmeer saying her real name in the final instance, anyway? How are Sylvari named? I suppose it would make some sense if it was the name the Pale Tree gave her.

DarcShriek.5829:

It will be interesting to see how the sylvari’s relationship with Mordy plays out. I’d still like to know what Caithe’s secret is and why Mordy was attracted to Scarlet during her trip.

Why does there need to be a relationship between Mordremoth and sylvari?

RedStar.4218:

What was the point of gathering all those armies ? Why build the Marionette and try it out in Lornar ?

The armies were more for what they’d give her – the energy probes from the Molten Alliance; the miasma from the Toxic Alliance; holograms from Aetherblades. Them being armies was a bonus, but it seems she didn’t care much for that beyond the Aetherblade fleet.

As for the Marionette – it was a red herring of sorts it seems. It was explained if you beat the Marionette, the whole weapon test was just to – as Rox put it – “thin out the herd”. If you lost the event, the Marionette exploded – self-destruction. And as per a livestream, there was only one Marionette (though we can replay it) and canonically it was beaten (you can see its corpse there).

RedStar.4218:

If she knew that she was going to invade Lion’s Arch, why did she bother with the thumpers in the first place ? I doesn’t seem like the she knew it was somewhere in LA because she placed them all over the world, even way up north in Jormag’s (supposed) territory.

This bit seems a bit weird to me. I think she was just doubt checking herself and where she needed to strike.

I honestly think she had two agendas the whole time, and disrupting the ley lines was one. The other was to weaken the pillars of the Pact (Humanity, Iron Legion, Hoelbrak, and Lion’s Arch are the biggest supporters beyond the Orders, which she marked with X’s along with LA).

Thus LA was a target from day one, but not for the ley lines. Though that’s my theory. And I doubt we’ll ever know now without digging it out of a dev.

RedStar.4218:

If LA was the target from day one, it does make some sort of sense. But the amount of thumpers she laid all over Tyria don’t seem to go that way.

Her attempt to put Mai Trin in the council was to eventually attack LA. So it was a target from the beginning. But the ley line being in LA may not have been to even her knowledge immediately.

RedStar.4218:

Mentioning “E” reminds me that all the different part of the living story are supposed to all tie in together in the end.

No they weren’t. The Zephryites were a separate plot element, like the backgrounds of the biconics and Tequatl. Not all of it is meant to tie together. Just that they’ll be explored more in the future. Clearly in season 2.

Shiren.9532:

It’s not totally the same thing but Canach radically changed after his first appearance and I’m sure you read the writer’s explanation that sylvari physiology can change in response to their physical and mental well being.

That seems different though than merely psychological well being changing her appearance – and her appearance was even changed during the Omadd machine event.

Shiren.9532:

I like the dragon corruption idea better, but that becomes “messy” when you consider Nightmare, the Dream and how Mordremoth first contacted Scarlet. If Mordremoth can corrupt sylvari, does that mean this new dragon plays by different rules from the others?

Well, technically, they all already corrupt in different fashions even though their corruption can affect all things equally.

DarcShriek.5829:

In addition to who is “E”, I’d like to know why Tequatl became stronger. It was mentioned that this was tied in also.

Tied into the Living Story. Not into Scarlet.

It will be interesting to see how the sylvari’s relationship with Mordy plays out. I’d still like to know what Caithe’s secret is and why Mordy was attracted to Scarlet during her trip.