Guild Wars 2

Couple of tips that I used to give to someone new at the game (I miss those moments).

1. Learn to prioritize (Monk first, then elementalist because unlike in GW2, elementalist, especially boss, deal crapload of dmg if left alone)

2. Don’t stand in AoE (If you see enemy elementalist casting firestorm or meteor shower, don’t stand still embracing it.)

3. Don’t Leeroy. Take group 1 by 1. GW1 is not like GW2 where almost every enemy is individually independent. GW1 enemies usually comes in group, and the latter and more elite the area, the more well balance (READ: Pain in the kitten to kill) they are, which makes my 1st tips more and more important.

What profession you starting can mean a huge deal. If you are starting as Mesmer/Monk in the beginning, you might ended up hating the game. Mesmer especially requires you to know game mechanic and also a lot of skills from the other professions to excel in playing one. Monk will require you to know enemy types, what kind of skills they are using and whats the danger of those skills, in order to excel.

Try Elementalist/warrior/ranger for beginner. You’ll probably enjoy it more just for the first time. Knowledge of the other profession’s skills and most enemy mechanics and behaviors aren’t that needed to succeed at first. Choose fire and/or earth if you choose Ele for dmg. Warrior, choose sword/axe first before hammer.

4. Be patient. GW1 is one of the most rewarding game that I’ve played (aside from Demon/dark souls series). You failed, don’t fret, try it one more or get a new skill or try different henchmen composition can mean victory.

Cheers!

Harper.4173:

Just because the game is designed to be casual friendly doesn’t mean the veteran players have to be casual friendly. Being friendly and nice towards a group of players is a choice.

Some people choose to be friendly and help casuals. I usually just avoid them every chance I get.

Players that expect the game to give them all the info they need to play are perfectly fine – but they shouldn’t expect people who take their performance and execution seriously to give them the time of day.

If you can’t bother to watch a 10 minute guide on the dungeon run you’re about do to – I can’t bother to carry you through it.

Players need to realize that the path to self-improvement comes from within.

This forum really needs a -1 button…

“What should I do with new content if I don’t care to utilize new content?!”

This is indeed a question for the ages.

C’mon, ESO is not a bad game. It misses a few key things that GW2 does just right, but the complaints I’m seeing here are not entirely accurate.

Phasing: Yes, it’s a problem to just casually run around with friends who aren’t at the exact same stage as you, but you can at least all group up and see each other much more easily than at launch.

Switch from Sub to B2P: Here I have some inside info. Back when the game was first publicly announced, I questioned my friend who was working there as to why it would have a sub fee. He said that model had been put in place early on before the B2P model had proven itself in other games and was “baked in” too much to change by intended launch, but they would eventually switch. So it wasn’t sudden, it just was harder work than the buying public thought.

Muddy Brown: Yes, especially if you start in the Pact. Stonefalls is horrifically dull. But other zones are green and sunny (when not dynamically raining), and now there are dyes — not nearly as good as GW2 dyes — to brighten up the armor.

And the quests are wonderfully immersive, the stories much better told and holding more depth than in GW2, your choices really impact your future experience with no do-overs.

GW2 still works better as a whole. In TESO I can feel like I’m fighting the game to try to get things done, whereas GW2 gameplay and movement is smooth and intuitive. GW2 is more social, has a better TP (well, TESO doesn’t have one at all, just individual guild traders so you have to get lucky to run into one and have it selling what you seek), and is easier on the eyes.

But that’s no reason to bash TESO as being far more horrible than it is.

Snaff ability 1st slot:

Suicidal Charge
Charge forward 400ft with bravery. Upon reaching destination (or any enemy target), explode for 86dmg. Inflicts 110% HP self damage. Also causes nearest human male ally to run in fear (effect only breaks in presence of Queen Jenna).

I read very little of the larger debates in this thread, but it seems like several people are confusing the burned out, frustrated sensations they experience when working really hard for gold, cosmetics, or whatever else they want in the game by repeating dungeons, farming locations, or other events ad nauseam with the symptoms of grind.

They’re absolutely right, in the simplest sense. They are grinding, the frustration they possess does come from a grind. Grind -does- exist in GW2. However, it was not placed there by the developers. The grind the aforementioned players are experiencing is brought upon largely by themselves and general unwillingness to slow down and enjoy the game for what it is in order to achieve faster rewards.

Tired of farming X map? Go do something else. virtually everything in this game throws money at you, from harvesting onions to going deep-sea fishing for certain drops in Southsun. When you’re tired of it, go someplace else. Do an event. Party with someone. Mix it up.

Tired of completing the entire world for that gift? Take it easy. Listen to the npc dialogue. Go someplace you’ve been before and stop pressing for completion when it’s no longer fun. Go play on the underwater organ or something. Your legendary isnt a limited edition drop (And the limited edition things, for that matter, are -easy- to get)., you’ll get it when you get it. Dont blaze through the content for content.

I don’t think its fair to the developers to place the general unhappiness of the grinding community on them. It isn’t largely grind by design, it’s grind by method and the desire for what is as close to instant gratification as possible. Yes, precursors being rng is a travesty, but it’s being worked on.

Play the game. Play the market. Go see what people are doing. If you feel like the game is work, you’re doing it wrong. After all, what are you gonna do once you get twilight? swing it around for a month then quit?

Adding more avenues for grind wont fix it. Farming faster wont fix it. Fixing the matter of grind and general reward pacing requires a little wit and willingness to explore the nooks and crannies of the map for the drops that people -want- on the tp, but are not being provided. Everyone’s at the train, everyone’s at the world bosses; getting the same loot and trying to sell it even though the saturation is making that process hardly lucrative for the time and monotony involved.

I might even dare to say that people feeling that there -is- a grind actually do need to L2P. In the greatest sense of the phrase.

Not quests, however there are ingame methods to get some items.
There is the PvP reward tracks that give you the Glorious armor set as well as the Balthazar backpiece and the dungeon weapons and armors. Dry Top and PvP have the Ambrite weapons also. There are a number of backpieces that each crafting profession can make. Also through crafting are the ascended armors and weapons. The WvW tournament seasons allow you to get the Mistforged and Hero weapons. Tequatl and the 3 headed wurms have weapons or armor as a (very) rare drop. There are a number of karma weapons and armor from heart venders and cultural weapons from vendors in the cities that are ingame. The mystic forge allows you to craft unique weapon skins.

Glorious armor: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glorious_armor
Ambrite weapons: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ambrite_weapons
Mistforged: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistforged_Hero%27s_weapons
Ascended armor: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_armor
Ascended weapons: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_weapons
Sunless weapons (Tequatl): http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sunless_weapons
Wurmslayer’s armor pieces: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wurmslayer%27s_armor
Cultural weapons: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cultural_weapon
Mystic forge: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Forge/Equipment
Crafter’s backpieces: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Crafter%27s_backpacks

In addition, each living story arc also has had some sort of item as the reward, usually a piece of gear.

Thats not exactly true OP. I too had a friend start the game with this discount and We’ve played twice with different characters. Not long sessions either and she got one to 8 and the other to 6

1. Dodging is not locked, takes a bit to come across a a little event that tells you about it. Thats better then before where you were never told about dodging yet everyone still knew about it. Adding a tutorial about something doesnt lock it away.

2. Vistas and skill challenges arent locked, Like I said she hasnt reached level 10 yet on either alt much less 13 yet we did both Vistas and skill changes together. (I too was on a sub level 10 character)

3. No heart, dynamic event, group event is locked so your statement that all you could do is grind mobs is false. If thats what you did it was by your own choice not something the game forced on you. We did events, hearts as well as a couple of group events.

4. Yes its true you only get access to new weapon skills at level 2,4,7 and 10 but its also true getting to level 10 is now a breeze. A single dynamic event is enough to go up a level in the level 2 range while 3 or so are enough to gain a level 10 range when before you needed to complete close to 14 dynamic events.

5. I am not sure when underwater combat locks but by the team we walked down to the lake in metrica Provence it was unlocked for us abit we only had access to 2 skills to be fair. Still I dont think there is another zone with closer water to the starting area so even if its locked at the start its really a none issue.

Your friend got bored at level 7 thats what 2 hrs into the game? s/he may have had 4 skill slots open but they could use different weapons so in truth they could have experimented with about 16 different skills.

I am sorry to say but if your friend got bored for lack to options at level 7 his/her issue is with MMOs in general not Gw2 specifically. even if they made it more restrictive than it was at launch its still more expansive then any other alternative out there. There simply isnt an mmo other I am aware off that gives you over 16 different still to play with in your first 2 hrs. In many you’d be lucky if you’d be given access to 3 different skills in that time frame.

But you Know I am starting to become a bit skeptic new players are actually complaining about this. I have a feeling its just veteran players using hyperbole to drive up their point which to me at least would be more understandable. During my play through with my friend I couldnt help but be said how the 2 little golem game thing in metrica no longer worked. How the heart next to the lake gave you a golem that runs after you instead of a golem to drive with their own set of skills etc.. While I was thinking its a pity the npe dumped the game down so much do you know what my friend said to me as we got underwater for the first time? She said how much stuff is there to do in this MMO? Its overwhelming! (btw this was not her first MMO she’s been playing them for years) And thinking about it she had a point. Here we were a couple of hours in the game and she had already experienced:

- A boss fight (tutorial)
- Dyes
- weapons with different skills
- Skills challenges
- Vistas
- Dodging
- 2 types of questing (dynamic events / Hearts)
- She was confused how a merchant she was using disappeared on her (he was part of a dynamic event that had triggered while she was messing with her inventory)
- underwater combat
- gathering
- downleveling (we over leveled the area)
- group events (we had a champion fight)
- 2 different starting areas for each of her characters
- using turrets which gives you a new skill
- 2 different classes that had their own different mechanics (she tried ele first then necro)

So yeah this was a bit underwhelming for me who knew how things were before but for her? This early in the game she had already experienced so many different content options then she was used to in other MMOs that she couldnt help and wonder how much stuff is there to do in this game? and thats without having experienced
dungeons, fractals, guild missions, mini dungeons, jumping puzzles, mini games, hidden areas, world bosses, meta events, living story, traits, utility skills,elite skills etc..

about 5hrs into the game bored is definitely one word she wouldn’t use to describe the game. So far she only had one complaint and plenty of praises. If you’re wondering her complaint was she’d love to have mounts.

As a new player, I kinda like it? I mean it is not the end of the world. I am in no rush, I am enjoying the story, helping out, having my finest duck being taking out by my jerk of a friend. Having that jerk kidnapped…

I mean is it really that bad? Grinding mobs? The first few days I have…

Worked on a farm.
Chased a wild bull with some wasp attacking me.
Showed some grunts how to shoot a gun.
Went in a bandit cave to clear it out.
Found a random cave troll that had me screaming help.
Went into a swamp, where a random Kingdom hearts looking monster came out of the ground and one shotted me.
Had to fight a underwater creature, that was scary.
Had to protect some farmer tools from little creatures that sound like little girls.
Found out that bears don’t like me, and hit hard.
Saw a gaint tree monster and was rooted to death.

…How can you be bored?

Mordremoth showed up and dropped 4 guild catapults. I called for help and the only response I got was “Fort Marriner is paper, let it fall”. I went to grab some supply to build an arrow cart to defend the place…but someone had taken it all to build a trebuchet atop Troll’s End. So there you have it. Fort Marriner fell. I hope everyone is happy!

They actually went afk before they died. Now they’re waiting for someone to rez them so they don’t lose their loot.

BilboBaggins.5620:

<snip for size>

Absolutely agree with that article.

I was an EQ player from it’s start.

When WoW came out there were a lot of us oldschool EQ players who shuttered at the realization that this is what would become the status quo in MMOs.

EQ had fun stuff to do at every level. I played on the PVP server and we would have Wars going on in many different zones, they had a mechanic put in that you could only kill within 6 levels of yourself, this prevented people from rushing to the cap to farm lower level people, it was amazing. I still have fond memories of taking a bunch of Evil races into Greater Faydark and setting up camp and slaughtering all the good races. Likewise I had a good character that we’d do the same going into Guk/Innothule and waging war on the Evils.

There’s certainly been a turn. But, it’s not so much just endgame but a psychological change in the way games have been handled.

Immersion has broken down because players want to play the elements of the game they desire. EQ didn’t just do the leveling path and end game differently, they did EVERYTHING differently.

I remember taking a two hour trip to get to the next city. Some days traveling was all I’d do. And that was fun, immersive and rewarding. When traveling you’d have to bind places otherwise you’d die and start your whole trip over, losing whatever you had on your corpse till you got back to it. That created a fear and tension that was fun.

That simply isn’t the way gamers want to play things anymore. Instant gratification is a term thrown around a lot but it fits here. No one wants to travel like that anymore. No one wants the reprocussions of their actions to actually alter their game play. Games have forever changed because WoW introduced a more “lets get to the action” type game play. And that’s sad, but on the other hand it’s created a much more active set of games. Instead of logging in on the weekend and spending half my time traveling, I now log in and run a dozen dungeons, a fractal, maybe hop into some PVP or WvW, and basically I’m constantly into the content I desire with no wait time. I’m not sure if I could handle going back even though i see the beauty and immersion that it created.

Even Vanilla WoW would probably be considered quite slow paced by today’s standard, again a cliche phrase but “give them an inch and they’ll take a mile” fits here. Players have constantly been asking for quicker access to game play. And what has been lost is the immersive depth of content. This goes with the leveling structure “I don’t want to have to spend 3 months leveling to catch up” (so they add in fast leveling when you’re below a certain point to ease that), " ugh I gotta spend 10 minutes running there?" (so they add waypoints/teleports/fast travel). “I died and can’t get back to my stuff!” (what they really mean is “I don’t want to take the time to get back to my stuff” ok, we’ll remove that hinderance…). Etc.

It’s all been in an effort to create a more casual environment but in doing so, as I said, you lose that depth in the game. Look at the good RPG games out there, your decisions matter. How many MMOs have retained that? None that I can think of.

But, again, it’s not all bad as a player, I enjoy the fact that I’m no longer needing to get 100 people together to go break through the entrance of Plane of Fear, only to wipe and spend the rest of the day getting our corpses back. I’m no longer having to slowly plow through Kael Drakkel taking 5-10 minute med breaks every 30 or so minutes so the healers can get back to full mana. I no longer have to do 10+ Hours Plane of Growth clears.

As much as it has taken away from the genre we as players have gotten a lot. We can now play casually and it’s really quite nice. I really enjoy GW2s casual nature. When I finally stopped playing EQ it had even morphed into the same type of more casual/easy MMO. I was relieved when I went to DCUO and found raids lasted about 30mins-1hour. Now in GW2 I can be in and out in 30 mins and have actually accomplished something.

So as much as I miss the “good ol’ days” there is a quality in the new brand. Though I do agree, it’d be refreshing to see a more sandbox approach to these games, where there are more options and paths you can take and where it’s fine to simply be low level and having fun because you don’t feel a need to get through it to go play in the bulk of the content.

I think I get this now. And people like to ask for the impossible.

Each person here, individually, wants anet to design the game around THEIR needs, THEIR definitions of what is grind, THEIR wants. If anet fails to meet those standards, then its horrible, grindy, and unfun.

This thread is just starting to turn into a shouting match between people and clashing of ideals, all failing to accept one thing, anet’s definition. Apparently, just as we can’t accept each others, we can’t accept their. Tell me, in the example with DDO, what happens if someone says 20 times is too much of a grind? What about 10? Where is the line drawn?

Now, ask yourselves this. What content have you been denied? What haven’t you n able to play because you don’t have full ascended for, other than the obvious high level fractals? Did people fail the LS because of no ascended? Did people fail dungeons because of no ascended? What are you denied exactly without ascended? People gloat over gw1 with story and the pve and apparently never complained about do the same dungeons over and over again for collecting items for rare gear that was only for looks. How is that any different than now?

I could mention how path of exile or warframe have greater grind than gw2, but it wouldn’t matter. They would be dismissed in some way as they wouldn’t match with someone elses opinion.

In the end, what matters is, are you having fun? Yes? Great! Keep playing! Voice concerns or problems, but don’t act like you are a boss. A customer is a customer. Anet will try to keep you, but if demands become absurb, then its best to just ignore.

If you aren’t having fun, and if you feel anet is just ignoring you, then its time to just leave. Logging on, posting on forums, is still showing them you have interest. If you want to really see change, you need to stop showing up as numbers. TESO went b2p because not enough people signing up for subscription, rift and SWTOR went f2p after being buy and sub because of low numbers.

If anets numbers are in the area they want them, then they won’t worry. But continuing to post on forums or log in is saying the opposite to them.

But hey, why does my opinion matter? I’m having fun playing how the game is right now, which is taboo to everyone else apparently. I’m just the odd one out.

and for the poor unfortunates that joined the priory, they get a sword that stops in the middle of the fight and says, “Oh, I’m sorry — have you not learned how to do that yet?”

Parts of the OP remind me of a quote from Hitchhiker’s Guide.

“In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”

Just replace Universe with either: expansion, GvG, New Borderlands, and/or Masteries.

i really wish gw2 would be so dissapointing that people like the op would leave and just go somewhere else. but reality is gw2 must be really good when people with so much negativity stick to it

Look, I didn’t “care” about PvP either, until I tried it, and guess what? I loved it!

PvP matches are quick and rewarding and you will find yourself getting better at it if you stick to it at your own pace. You will get all sort of PvE related rewards depending on the reward track you choose.

For two years since launch I avoided PvP and stick with WvW and mostly solo PvE, unranked PvP has really help diversify my game. I still do everything else I enjoyed but I usually always run a few if not more matches a day on one or more of my characters. (level doesn’t matter)

Yes, ANet does “push” things a lot, but every now and again, I can understand why. Players often get set in their ways and stuck in ruts, sometimes they need to go outside their comfort zones in order to refresh their game experience.

ON TOKENS

GW2 dungeons use tokens to award cosmetic (and usable) exotic gear. The most expensive item is, iirc, 390 tokens. Under the current reward systems, those 390 tokens would take 7 path run-throughs to get. If one is willing to do all three paths (assuming other than Arah), one can get this item on the 3rd day. Maybe on the second if they are willing to do a couple of the 3 paths a second time on either day to get the extra 20×2 tokens.

Conclusion: That’s not very much of a requirement. As a result, the items are not really seen as all that desirable and only ever were for a short time near launch. Increased accessibility leads to items being taken for granted. This conclusion is bolstered by the fact that the single hardest to get and the most desirable set of rewards in the game, Legendary Weapons (or precursors, really, since Legendaries are crafting or buy only) are seen as the be-all and end-all of the GW2 reward system.

ON PLAYER IMPATIENCE

At launch, dungeon tokens dropped in smaller numbers than they do now, but there was no DR on tokens. There were enough player complaints that ANet increased the token awards. I don’t remember whether the DR was put in at the same time, but it’s certainly in there now.

Conclusion: Even with rewards being accessible via tokens, players want rewards fast. Impatience is a fundamental aspect of the human condition, and any system that requires players to wait at all will only generate less complaints, not no complaints, based on how little waiting is involved.

ON EQUIVALENT V. EXCLUSIVE REWARDS

Different demographics will prefer one approach over the other. Some players are inclined to pursue so-called harder content for the rewards (There are some who’d do it for the challenge alone, but PvE challenge in MMO’s has a shelf-life that’s only slightly longer than the learning curve, and this thread is about rewards anyway). Some of those players also like the exclusivity of the rewards they receive by mastering the harder content. The question becomes, “How many of those seeking rewards via specific content would be unhappy if the rewards were also attainable via other means?” I suspect the number would be non-trivial. In the meantime, some of the players disinclined to pursue specific content generally complain about exclusive rewards (think Liadri mini).

Conclusion: The players desiring equivalent rewards and those desiring exclusive rewards are fundamentally at odds with each other. No developer can please both demographics with the same reward.

RARITY AND DESIRABILITY

There are both exclusive (Teq, Wurm, TA/AP, Carapace) rewards and equivalent rewards in GW2. Other than precursors, the equivalent rewards are by-and-large relatively valueless and their sell price is trivial. The rarity of precursors (and the few other very rare items in game) is what maintains their desirability over time.

Conclusions: If precursors were crafted or obtained via tokens, then the mat lists or amount of tokens would have to be exceedingly extensive to maintain that rarity. The easier it is to get them (which, make no mistake, is what the thread is about), the less desirable they will become over time. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, but it would mean that ANet would then have to produce a new “holy grail” for those who want such goals. In fact, with the sheer number of Legendaries I see in game these days, I believe we’re approaching that point anyway.

MY CONCLUSION

There needs to be a reward Holy Grail in MMO’s. Too many MMO players are accustomed to pursuing hard-to-get rewards, and ANet should not choose to ignore that demographic. They also should not choose to ignore the demographic that prefers equivalent means to obtain rewards. This would mean that there will always be something that’s very hard to get.

That said, I believe that Ashen has hit upon the answer:

Ashen.2907:

All of that said I would prefer a better mix of specific drops for specific content and what we have now.

In addition to that, I believe it’s getting on time for ANet to introduce another Holy Grail. There needs to be a greater variety of rewards that are seen as valuable. The unfortunate part is that making desirable rewards requires rarity of access, whether that is done via exclusive or equivalent means. Ideally, there should be more of both.

The loot system in GW2 is superior to other MMO loot systems specifically BECAUSE it is tied to the Gold Standard.

This means that you CAN play the type of content you want and convert your time into nearly any item in the game, as opposed to games where you must grind away at specific tasks until RNG decides to reward you with a specific item that you want.

I understand that this concept is foreign to people who emigrate here from the inferior products that we’ve all played in the decades before, but the system really is pretty wonderful.

Its impressive how so many people make it sound like trait / npe changes turned this into a different game.

People you still have exactly the same game. Sure it may be more guided but its still exactly the same game. At least it is for those who want to play the game which one would assume is everyone however this doesnt seem to be the case.

Yes before you could unlock all your weapon skills in like 2 minutes . Now it will take you 30-45 mins cause you need to level up to 10 which was sped up a lot. Does that change the entire game somehow? Not just that but previously utility skills were unlocked at level 5, 10, 20. now they’re unlocked at 13,17,19 but lets not forget 1-15 now takes 2hrs rather then 10hrs give or take after that its 1hr per level so now you get all utility skill slots in about 6hrs while before it would have taken you 15hrs of game time. Thats twice as fast. Essentially you’re getting all your weapon skills about 30 minutes later but your utility skills about 10 hrs before. Fair trade.

Now as for the traits.. This is obviously the biggest change but is it really such a big deal? That depends, are you playing the game to level? or are you leveling to play the game? Like its been said from day one this isnt the game were you level to then start playing the game so if thats what you’re doing you’re going against the design and thats always painful. If you play the game to level though the changes to the trait system arent really that big of a deal. If its you’re x alt they’re actually a good thing in my view.

Why you may ask? well what do you do when you play the game? Run around, Do Dynamic Events, Do Jumping puzzles, Vistas, Map completion etc.. What must you do to unlock traits? Kill specific mobs that are part of an event chain, complete event chain, do jumping puzzles, map completion etc.. Same things you’ll be doing anyway! so why is it a good thing if you’re a veteran leveling your 10th alt or something? Well cause after you level so many alts you’ve seen it all which becomes tempting to use what you’re familiar with to level up and that quickly becomes monotonous but this new system changes that. I may like to play in Lornar’s pass so thats where i spend my 25-40ish level only with trait I actually need to zone completion in gendarran fields will which likely mean I spending 1/2 my leveling time in Gendarran and 1/2 in lornar rather then repeating the same exact pattern.

You’re still playing the same exact content, I would still be doing map completion and events just the venue changes.

In short the new trait system didnt change what you do, it even didnt take away choice from you at all. Its just incentivizing you to experience more of what the game has to offer. But hey maybe you just like lornar and really hate Gendarran so what then? you can unlock using gold and skill points. You can thus skip what you dont like if thats an issue for you. And again provided you dont hate absolutely everything that’s likely going to still be cheaper then the system we had before.

frifox.5283:

I’ve never done “raids” before but in my mind a Raid = 5hr extra difficult dungeon run in a 10 people party with an epic, exclusive reward at the end. I honestly wouldn’t mind something like that. In fact, I would love if ANet added something like that. I’d even buy GEMS to access something like that.

It doesn’t need to be 5 hours. I mean in original EQ we had raids that would last 10, but that wasn’t what made them raids. It was the larger force and the epic feel, mainly that epic feel.

Take Arah, cut out the paths, add HP and multiple phases to each of the bosses so they are all as well made as Lupi, and there you have a raid.

I’ve had raids in EQ as short as 10 mins. In DCUO we beat one in ~6 mins (while it was current and still the hardest one available) but initially that same raid we’d spent 4+ hours in there just learning it and trying to figure it out to beat it and our average runs before we really perfected it were still 30mins-1hour.

Frankly I don’t have the desire or the time for 5 hour raids anymore. And, I haven’t done a single raid that took that long in years other than while we were just doing learning runs constantly failing. Back around 2003 from what I saw games kind of steered away from that either making shorter sections or allowing saved progress in raids so you could spread out the content over a whole week instead of individual long stretches of time. Instead of a 5 hour clear up to a final boss that took another hour it’d be taking out half of it one day, half another, then final boss the third or something like that.

I want challenge more than length, and with that challenge should come a difficulty that has us scratching our heads and spending hours on it for long enough to keep us entertained for a while until we perfect it and get it down to 30 mins clears or whatever. To clarify, by challenge and difficulty I mean complexity enough to force us to spend the time to learn it, while also involving enough execution difficulty to keep it entertaining (like Lupi IMO).

I had a little helper with me at lupi last night. Suffice to say, she helped me with lupi after the pugs bit the dust.

There are certain aspects of every MMO that I simply will not participate in and forgo any rewards those give—with no regrets. Sometimes I really want those rewards, too. But it’s no different than in real life, you establish your boundaries.

If I was writing this story…

Trahearne: They’ve surrounded the island. This won’t end well.

Deputy Mira: Oh, we’re in some pretty kitty litter now. Game over, man! Game over!

Sieran: What? Over? Did you say over? Nothing is over ’til we decide it is! Was it over when the Quaggans seared Ascalon? Heck, no!

Trahearne: Quaggans?

Commander: Forget it, she’s rolling.

Sieran: And it ain’t over now! This rose has thorns! Blightghast? It’s a dead dragon! Tequatl? Dead! Zhaitan?

Commander: Dead! Sieran’s right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. First things first, though. We gotta get off this island.

Trahearne: But the island is surrounded. The docks – and all the ships – are in flames. We’re not going anywhere.

Deputy Brakk: I’ve got a little fishing boat tucked away in a secluded cove.

Trahearne: Deputy Brakk? I thought you were dead.

Deputy Brakk: It was a close call. I jumped into the garbage disposal just as the risen breached the wall and overran the fortress.

Sieran: What a lovely smell you’ve discovered.

Commander: You said you have a boat.

Deputy Brakk: Yes, indeed. There’s a little cove over on the west side of the island, well out of sight of, well, anyone who doesn’t know where to look! I keep a little boat there, for off-duty fishing trips. Talon would have had a cow if he knew!

Trahearne: Alas, poor Talon. I knew him, Sieran.

Sieran: Uh, yeah. He, ah, seemed like a great Watch Commander.

Commander: And now his watch has ended…

Deputy Mira: Are you all out of your minds? End of watch? It’s the end of everything! What are you, golems? Wind-up marionettes? Don’t you know when you’re dying? Watch and regulations and orders. What do they all mean?

Commander: Fool of a Deputy! Be quiet! All right. Brakk, you lead the way. Trahearne, bring up the rear. Stay frosty, people.

/e sneak to the secluded cove

Deputy Brakk: Oh, thank the Eternal Alchemy! It’s still here! And nobody found the bottle of Tequatl’s Tail Tequila I stashed under the seat.

Commander: Sun’s almost down. Trahearne, you seem to know a lot about the risen. How well can they see in the dark?

Trahearne: Well, given that the magic which reanimates the risen also somewhat hampers tissue decay, the rods and cones in the eyes of risen…

(Five hours later)

Trahearne: …about as well as when they were alive.

Commander: Right. Well. Everyone wake up. We’re moving out.

Risen Thrall: Death, good!

Deputy Brakk: Oh, no!

Deputy Mira: Those things are gonna come in here and they’re gonna get us!

Sieran: I got this!

Commander: Sieran, what — ?

Sieran (attacking the risen thrall): You shall not pass!

Commander: Get back here and get in the boat! That’s an order!

Trahearne: I think we’re going to need a bigger boat.

Commander: What?

Trahearne: There’s not enough room for all of us.

Deputy Mira (taking a slug from the bottle of Tequatl’s Tail Tequila and pushing Sieran out of the way): Hey, you, cabbage patch kid! Get in the (hic) boat! This is my turf and I’m gonna defend it.

Sieran: But – thorns!

Deputy Mira: Shuddup, ya loose leaf lettuce! Get in the boat!

Commander: Come on, Sieran. We’re going.

Risen Brute: This one, kill.

Deputy Mira (attacks risen brute and other risen approaching): Come on! Come on! Come and get it, baby! Come on! I don’t got all day! Come on! Come on! Come on you kitten! Come on, you too! Oh, you want some of this? Well, double dumb kitten on you!

Sieran: Not bad for a human.

/e Deputy Mira holds off the approaching risen while everyone else gets away.

Posting to lend my voice here. I’ve fond, fond memories of SAB: Back to School, as it was the current event when I joined the game as well as the thing my friends used on me to convine me to give GW2 a try.

I’ve been waiting and waiting for it’s glorious return, all the while telling my friends who are newer to the game about it, and we’re all still pumped for a return that seems to never come about.

World 3 or no, please bring it back. So much love and detail went into the SAB that it’s a shame the intent seems to be to lock it away forever. :c

I think the OP has made himself clear. He would have been happier knowing that he could complete the collections if they were all account bound trophies or karma items. I can see the merit in that. The goal being that people’s experience in collection being somewhat uniform and equal. However, some people are sitting on millions of karma while others are not. And people would still complain about collections being trivially easy or monotonously long no matter where the lines are drawn.

However, I want to talk about something the OP brought up. Real Money Trading. I think the train of thought that people follow with economic complaints in this vein is uninformed. That train of thought is that if you can’t generate enough gold in game to meet your goals then you are forced to participate in RMT. This sort of logic has been the fallback position of players across MMOs for years. When developers or players set the price of a desired item to a point beyond what some players think is reasonable, the conversation usually devolves into “You are forcing players/me to buy currency from RMT sites!” That…just can’t be the case. Issues stemming from RMT in terms of customer support, in game economies and even in game communities are nightmarish. If you look at the history of RMT and how it affects MMOs and even local economies in other countries, you would probably have a better understanding of why Anet took the direction they did with paying for gold with cash. If Anet didn’t participate in legit RMT, and many MMOs still don’t, desperate players would still be flocking to/preyed on by gold sites for the most desired items. For players that can’t control themselves, and there will always be those who can’t, Anet has given them an out. It wasn’t an altruistic motive I can assure you, there is money to be made there, but the pros and cons are complex enough that I think everyone needs to move beyond using the “they do x to drive gem to gold sales” argument as the basis for a rational understanding of game design.

I think not having a purely account bound collection system gives more options for profit for those who wish to participate in the player driven economy. I think having a purely account bound collection system, while a valid option, would necessitate the use of RNG which some people will complain about anyway. Either way, I feel that it’s pretty clear that completing all of the collections is intended to be a long term goal. Players will never agree on just how long that should be or how to gate it. It’s really hard to silence criticism because no system is perfect. For almost any suggestion you can think of, there will be a flaw or downside.

I’m still very happy with the game – as are many in my guild. There are things we would love to see done or added, but in the meantime, we are having fun.

On a related topic – am I happy with the forums? Not so much. The ridiculous infighting between the same small group of players (in almost every thread of significance) pretty much buries any legitimate feedback and makes informed discussion difficult.

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

People need to lighten up – this ‘Entitled’ mentality of posters on this forum does not help their cause with the developers.

It’s actually people like you who are doing the most harm.

Nope.

Stop crying. Start listening. The devs are here (it’s like Christmas for those of us who have been here for a year +) stop berating them. Start listening. They aren’t going to respond to hostility or unconstructive behavior.