BG
They kittening broke roaming.
G catas are pointless.
can’t get +5 ( or I guess you can but you have to leave wvw to craft?)
The removal of wp’s makes the fights non existent.
The removal of guard stacks hits small groups much harder than big groups.
Can’t upgrade to drain supply in front of enemies.
Auto upgrades means everything is fortified unless you are k training.
Stupid PvE dino “event” discourages fighting because you lose your weapon skills if you pick up a gear.
Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended
That is probably the fastest response I have ever seen >.>
How about this one!
I never understood why people are so upset with this. Spawn siege isn’t going to prevent the capture of the northern towers/Garrison unless the attacking army is too small to be able to take them in the first place. And if you do take an opponent’s Garrison and spawn towers on their own borderlands, you’ve already won. If they then have to use spawn siege to try to take back their towers/Garrison, that means they don’t have the numbers to go down there and actually take it anyways.
Did people think that Anet would have turned ele into a free kill walking loot bag because of their whining?
wow haters gonna hate
http://orig00.deviantart.net/ae57/f/2013/171/4/a/haters_gonna_hate12221_by_lord_iluvatar-d69w84z.gif
Well, toning down sustain a bit would be a start so they can’t reset 24/7. All they did was taking away some Vigor duration from a trait while they’ll still have the best uptime of it (almost perma) considering how cantrips give you Vigor too just like attuning to water.
Most Ele players are so spoiled after being on the top of every gamemode for so long, that the moment ele becomes slightly balance they’ll burst into tears and demand nerfs beause they’d actually have to learn how to play.
Mesmers are like kittenroaches. If you see one on the other team, that means there are 10 more hiding in PU Permastealth.
Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Everytime someone dies to fall damage, it’s really a perma-stealth PU mesmer oneshotting you from stealth then immediately hiding again.
Everytime someone dies to fall damage, it’s really a perma-stealth PU mesmer oneshotting you from stealth then immediately hiding again.
Sometimes it’s hard to tell if they were really in stealth – or one-shotting you from 9000 range with their unreflectable, unblockable greatsword burst combo.
I hate to break it to you, but let me put this bluntly:
Nobody on this forum, let alone Robert Gee, who I can assure you is incredibly busy right now, is going to watch 110 minutes of somebody talking. This is a bit more than your two cents, it’s more along the lines of the whole bank account.
If you want to give feedback, make it directed and to the point. Bullets work nicely for this. Headings do too. Mindblowingly long youtube videos do not.
The “nerf pu” crowd were never paying attention in the first place. Scrubs are gonna scrub, and they only ever learn enough about a game’s meta to kitten on whatever they think killed them last.
Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Most people here seem to not know (even though I have stated many times) that I’ve only been playing mesmer for 5 days. I’m new to the class, not even a week in, yet I’m being judged as if I’ve been playing since BWE 1. “Ohh PU is such a crutch, you’re so bad” Yeah Im new, I want a crutch. I’ve played ONLY thief since BWE 1, never straying from D/D. I swear I’m going to have to make a thief montage next to show that I’m not an awful player, I’m just playing a new class. No wonder most people hate mesmers, the community is utter garbage for this class. The Thief forums are nothing like this. /endrant
Let me ask you this:
In your opinion, what makes your video entertaining or interesting to watch? Generally speaking, I find a video interesting for a couple of reasons. It could be showcasing absolutely exceptional play, this is always interesting. It could be demonstrating an interesting technique, build, or mechanic that someone has come up with. It could simply be an instructional video, with not necessarily exceptional play and not necessarily a groundbreaking new build, but with solid suggestions, tips, and advice on how to perform effectively.
You’re a new player, and so you’re obviously not going to be particularly skilled at the class, eliminating the possibility of exceptional play. You’re playing a tried and proven build that isn’t new or different in any way. You’re also not making it as an instructional guide on how to play or perform effectively.
So what does that leave us with? Well…not much. It leaves us with a video showing less than exceptional play, with no particularly unique or distinguishing characteristics about it to keep us interested or entertained. Is it such a surprise that people aren’t jumping out of their seats to praise it?
“tedious and annoying to play against” is not a valid criteria for balance changes.
You know what else is tedious and annoying to play against?
Full-tank rangers.
Cleric warriors.
d/d Eles.
Any full-tank build in the game.
Any player that kills you.
And those players who sit around using it, do you think they’d magically be more useful if they didn’t choose this dumb as kitten spec? No, they’d be just as useless, running something else stupid. The spec you’re complaining about isn’t a problem, as you admit, it’s not useful.
And it isn’t the problem, as stupid players are stupid no matter what builds they try, and troll players will troll no matter what tools you give them.
In short, your complaint is rather meaningless, as fixing it won’t fix your annoyance, and Anet should never base balance of a class on the comfort levels of the people who fight against that class.
I only talk about small group compositions in my post. 1v1s, especially in WvW, are imbalanced by definition. It is a completely impractical “mode” (luckily it’s not even one). There are too many hard counters in Guild Wars 2. For reference, although it’s sPvP, have a look at the banned traits and amulets in 1v1 tournaments.
Back on topic. While I agree with the stealth, I completely disagree with the conditions. Playing power builds has never been so rewarding and easy (mind you I play one myself). In my tier most small groups (groups of 2-3 players) prefer high power damage burst builds that rely on stealth, immunities and mobility to score a kill before the enemy can even retaliate. Building on immunities and stealth with a power build is definitely not smarter than running a condition build. The often debilitating damage a power build can pump out while being impregnable to one or often several forms of damage is – to put it mildly – ludicrous.
That said, I certainly don’t defend Perplexity runes. They should have been nerfed (again) a really long time ago. But the main reason why Perplexity PU Mesmers are so obnoxious is not the condition damage but the disproportionate stealth upkeep. But both power builds and condition builds are equally guilty of abusing that flawed game mechanic.
(edited by Elmo Benchwarmer.3025)
Oh god…
Yesterday I had a close encounter with an engi. He was good and we were fighting for about 5 minutes – with his elixir HGH build he had quote good condi cleanse and decent tankiness that was really hard for me to counter. When finally he made mistake and I’ve manage to down him, I was about to compliment his skills when I received a quite vitriolic message about “being a noob playing a noob faceroll build that requires no skills”. He then changed toon to one with even better condi cleanse, found me killed me. I guess his ego was satisfied. While I don’t fully recall his name, it was rhyming with “Zero”… Now I see this post
/facepalm.
Full of players trying to defend a completely broken build. It will get fixed eventualy, but like everything ANet does will take a loong time to do so
Well, we’re full of players blaming their deaths in this game onto their opponents spec instead of their own shortcomings. Sadly, I think the universe doesn’t have a fix coming up any time soon.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
You know that scepter #2 is on a 6 second cooldown right?
12k torment damage on a 6 second cooldown? You really think that’s balanced? (and it actually goes up to 15k if you factor in weapon and guard stacks).
4 things:
- To have 6s of CD you need to take the scepter trait, which is inferior to Ineptitude.
- It’s a reactive skill, so to activate it needs participation of the enemy to activate it.
- Torment damage can be reduced to half if the enemy is not moving.
- You negate the damage by cleansing it.
So in the end, the skill damage is proportional to the enemy’s lack of awareness and lack of control of the fight.
So, if someone is receiving the 12k of damage it’s because he deserves it.
Ansau – Sylvari Mesmer – Exiled Warriors [wE] – Gandara
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
I found a Staff ele, it was a regular 1v1 but with a twist, I used my nose to press the skills on my keyboard, that’s right my nose. For the majority of the fight I did nothing but press 2 and 3, I think I pressed 4 once on scepter/torch and I won the fight; without even going below 50% health, I didn’t dodge once, I didn’t use my heal, nor any utilities and I still won.
I play a kit less engineer with only one hand and have never, ever, once, lost a fight to a thief or mesmer, stealth or not. Not one loss.
AtomsofSystems your just not getting my point. Its not a complaint about zerk should be able to beat all, For instance i have a knights/zerk ranger GS/LB with full condi removal, so against pu condi memsers i remove all their condis, but i cant to enough dmg to them even though i am full dmg. So the fights last foreverrrrrrrrrr until i get bored and just leave. (or a friend of theres comes or a friend of mine shows up) This post is not abt thiefs opness whatsoever.
I’m sorry, I must be missing something. You’re complaining about pu condi mesmers, but then you just posted that you run a (ranger!) build that has so little difficulty against PU condi mesmers that it’s a boring fight and you just move on.
I don’t get it, are PU condi mesmers OP and hard to deal with, or aren’t they???
Having a dire or even a rabids set i dont find fun, i like builds that do dmg (such as beserker etc) Idk how people find it fun to be a tanky lil guy and being able to make 100 mistakes and still win just because their dire condi or whatever, its not enjoyable.
- Whenever i see a mesmer i think kittens more dire trash, and when i see a shatter mesmer i am legitimately surprised because non condi mesmers are so rare.
Condi shatter builds can be one of a hell of fun, they’re not inherently boring. You can melt people in seconds and they allow to face outnumbered fights, which requires tons of skill and are more stressful than duels with a power burst build.
They can also do tons of damage also, just they do it in a different way (more over time than instant bursts). However, you can still see 4k confusion + 3k torment + 1k bleeding + 700 burning in a second.
All this “condi builds are boring cause they’re easy” is just a nonsense idea of people who think their skill is elevated to the heaven because playing squishy power builds proclaims you as a skilled player.
There’s a reason why condi builds in pvp don’t work. Players there put their arrogance behind and let the clearance and smartness bright, by taking condi removal and not playing squishy builds when not needed.
Meanwhile, WvW is full of ganking zerker builds that die in a second from condies. Then they yell at you about noobing with condi builds, or come here to the forums to ask for nerfs…
Ansau – Sylvari Mesmer – Exiled Warriors [wE] – Gandara
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
Don’t go the irrational “blame Anet” route.
There isnt a game out there that runs 180 player characters with 180 various server connections and ISPs linked together that doesn’t have the same or worse problem.
Which has nothing to do with the FPS problem. The FPS problem is because of the engine not ISPs or anything like that.
So what game out there now uses an engine that allows 180 players in different locations to process fluidly to each other simultaneously, that maintains solid pings and consistent 60 fps or better?
CU has the framework built currently to handle 1000+ players per instance. : )
The main problem about anet is the internal netcode is garbage and if you want to actually research instead of just blindly praising ANet, use Wireshark and look at all of the garbage each player spams the server with.
Good network design minimizes overhead; ANet decided that maximizing the amount of TCP headers each of their servers has to parse is a good idea for some reason. Not to mention anything related to optimizing how conditions are handled, and literally everything to do with damage.
ANet has made so many bad design decisions over the years that literally every intelligent professional that even marginally works with computers has a reason to laugh at them. Sysmins, Protocol Guys and Databasing. Seriously, look at how ANet sends the information regarding another player on a packet level. Enumerating outfits and armor with fixed address packets seems like a really good idea since literally everyone else in the industry does it with their art teams. But no, for some reason, that’s not implemented, so evaluating every single different fashion wars 2 costume becomes incredibly CPU heavy. It’s a work of sheer genius that a game this badly implemented on a technical level even runs. Props to Intel, AMD, and NVidia for making hardware strong enough to run this game even at 30fps.
That’s all. : )
The simple fact is a castle or tower should give the defenders a significant advantage over any attackers below them. This is not reflected in game as the immovable siege is useless within 2 seconds of an attack beginning, and enemy siege can be placed in ridiculous positions but still clear your own siege whether well placed or not.
The top of almost every real castle a crenelation to allow the defender to attack the enemies below whilst still having a degree of defensive cover. They have arrow slits and murder holes to rain death down on the attackers, whilst very well defended.
Non of this is reflected in the game mechanics, so every time a blob comes knocking the defenders with fewer numbers will typically lose. Taking a garrison or major keep should be a monumental achievement, not a quick 2 minute task by a blob that is karma training a whole map.
WvW can be a very unrewarding place for those of us that enjoy scouting and defending, very little reward for hours of work which can be wiped out in seconds by every huge blob that turns up at the gates, whilst the masses run around gathering vast quantities of loot-bags and rewards on the K-Train.
Give me a castle that works like a castle ArenaNet, if a few defenders could hold or at least seriously slow down an enemy then more people would scout and defend, especially if our efforts were rewarded in loot. You get loot for taking a tower, why not for a successful outnumbered defence?
A workable defence would even help smaller servers that are outnumbered constantly in periods when the majority of the servers population are sleeping and prevent the huge discrepancy in scores that happens overnight. Just look at the statistics, the bigger servers score more points in the periods where the majority of the players in the time zone are asleep.
If I was sleeping in a castle and it was suddenly attacked, I’d wake up and defend it. Clearly we can’t in the real world send alarm calls to the servers population all night, so giving defences that actually function as defences and provide a significant advantage is the better answer.
No . I think specifics to the wall problems from the “experts” are the problem. Doesn’t take skill not to back up a claim. Just takes a keyboard and a whole lot of assuming.
We already had a No Walls Week with the golem thing. I am hoping for a lets give love to the defense week where you can stay on something longer than 3 seconds against a zerg. If you have a death wish get on a cannon. Its faster than standing in front of a firing squad.
This is absurd. Lets go through and see why, shall we?
1) dodge fire
And by dodge fire, we actually mean ’don’t be on the point while the ele is spamming fire spells. You’ve only got 2 dodges, but the ele can cover the point in long lasting fire aoes for quite a while, while hammering with autos/other skills. If you want to ‘dodge fire’, you simply have to abandon the point.
2) place your burst after their healing
Cele ele has fantastic sustain. They only need to go into water for burst healing. If you’re waiting for them to do a water rotation before you burst, you’re going to be waiting an awfully long time, since the only reason they’d need to do a water rotation is if you’ve already bursted them.
3) kite
Kite is such a simple term. Let me translate it to something more descriptive:
‘Lose the point, prolong the fight, and hope beyond hope that nobody on the other team notices their ele 1v1ing a mesmer on a side point and drops by to eat you’.
It’s that simple.
Yes, that simple. All you have to do is lose the point, burst after you’ve burst, and extend the fight long enough for their roamer to +1 you.
Ok, now for some advice grounded in reality…
Technically speaking, a shatter mesmer can 1v1 a d/d celery elery. You’ve got the burst for it and the boon stripping. However, it’s going to take a very long time. They have a lot of healing and defensive abilities, so it takes multiple successful bursts to actually kill them. They can avoid your burst in multiple ways though, so successful is the key word of that previous sentence. At the same time, they’re extremely potent offensively, and shatter mesmer typically is weak on condition removal. If you get up close, you can eat enormous burn stacks really fast, and you’ll die before you even get a chance to extend the fight.
This means that in order to fight a celery elery, you have to play really carefully, at long range to stay away from the nasty meat-grinder that a d/d ele creates, only coming in for a quick burst. This playstyle might work eventually in a 1v1, but it fails spectacularly in a match. It guarantees that you lose a point you’re trying to defend, guarantees that you don’t decap a point they’re defending, and gives their team ample time to rotate and kill you.
Ultimately, it’s not worth your time or effort, because unless the ele is really bad…it’s going to result in your death one way or the other.
Mesmers 100% stealth 100%dmg 100% speed 100% bullkitten
you melt down to mesmers a lot i take it ?
LOL
a few days ago I ran into a zerker ranger that was so incredibly, and I do mean incredibly stupid i will be laughing about it long after condis are gone and i am gone from this game.
this guy let me get 2 phantasms and a clone out, then sat there with 6 stacks of confusion, then right as i put my feedback on him he decided to literally sit in it and pop all his CDs on his LB.
can you guess the outcome ? are you by any chance that ranger ?
LOL
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
There’s a reason why PU is called PU.
It’s because it smells so bad kinda like the people who play this skill-less tasteless anti-fun build.
And I don’t need to explain why PU means it smells bad either. If ANET wants casuals to play the game, they need to delete underhanded annoying builds that “may not be viable in team play but still manages braindead garbage and anti-fun to play against.”
You could attempt to make some legitimate arguments against PU, and people have. But yours is a bonified, genuine example of scrub talk.
You’ve offered absolutely nothing to the discussion.
How is there a 32% chance at getting no aegis? Unless the distribution of odds isn’t even among the boons, I do wonder how you’re arriving at that conclusion.
A special form of wizardry that Iike to call ‘simple math’, though I actually did math slightly wrong. The real chance is 26.2%.
PU can choose from aegis, might, swiftness, protection, or regeneration. That means that every time a boon is granted, there is a 4/5 chance (or .8) that it will not be aegis. 6 second stealth means 6 boons are given. .8^6 = .262, or 26.2% chance.
A player can plan his moves perfectly and know exactly where an opposing mesmer is, time his attacks based on cooldown cycles, etc., and have his plans to counter the mesmer’s stealth and possibly the rest of his future-planned moves, get shut down by RNG.
This is so completely false, I’m not even sure where to start. Countering a bursty build has nothing to do with killing them in stealth. It has everything to do with predicting the burst and avoiding it. If you know where they are and what they’re doing, then it’s child’s play to avoid the burst.
As you said, since the trait is still good because of the stealth, and my complaints are about the boons, and not about the stealth at all, why are you defending the boons?
I discussed the boons because you made laughably incorrect claims about them. I wanted to make a point.
Single-target skills hit the first target connecting with the weapon’kittenbox. Even if the real mesmer is targeted, a clone-on-dodge or any clone on the side swung by will absorb the hit in full.
No, that’s only true for a projectile attack. A true single target attack, say corrupt boon, backstab, or many others don’t actually have a real hitbox at all, they simply apply the effect on the target.
The teleport is blink? As a utility, it’s the lowest-cooldown ground-target teleport in the game.
Uh.
Yes, Infil Arrow has no cooldown
Lol.
but realistically speaking, outside of back-capping or just running away from combat, this ability isn’t used in combat situations as a reposition for subsequent attacks or damage.
No, this is absolutely false. SB5 is used for repositioning in combat, and general mobility whenever necessary. You can’t just say ‘oh, this ability isn’t actually used’. That’s ridiculous, of course it’s used, and used well.
Dire isn’t mathematically the best PvP set ever designed? Sub-optimal? Are you kidding me?
No, it’s not. And no, I’m not kidding you. Dire is suboptimal on any condition class that relies heavily on critical strikes, and that includes mesmer.
They removed this set from sPvP because it was so overpowered on every single class.
This is a lie. The set never was added to PvP, it was never removed.
They did the same for perplexity.
This too is a lie. Perplexity runes were never added to PvP, not removed.
Are you new or something and have no idea what the history of the game is or how to optimize for PvP? —snips random ad hominems and incoherent grousing--
I’m quite aware of how stats work in PvP, and how to optimize builds. I do have what might be considered a fairly extensive amount of experience and credibility on that topic.
T1 might have enough keep-campers to sweep out a few mesmers. Otherwise, though, it’s widely considered as breaking WvW defense at the moment.
Really, widely considered as breaking WvW defense? That’s amusing. There’s a lot of things people consider as widely breaking WvW defense (arrow carts, facerubbing doors, various other mechanics), but mesmers are not one of them. If they were really that bad, you’d see threads about it. There’s only one thread, and it’s on the third page.
Except mesmers in organized play are a thing. Not in sPvP (okay, it is being abused in HJ by a few (I’m looking at you, and you know who you are :P)), but obviously cele ele facerolling is much better there when the format prevents so many builds from being viable due to innate stat problems. I know of many guilds who run three to five mesmers partied to maintain permanent stealth within a keep or SMC, chain-portaling inside, etc. Some go as far as suggesting a boon duration build for maximizing aegis uptime as to allow for them to be unhittable from a single attack from a sweep from PU. Unless you get a lot of guards sweeping a large area, you’re not going to find remotely good mesmers. Any mesmer getting swept is just sub-par. A guildmate of mine is renowned on our server for always being inside SMC and never being swept out despite our enemy’s best efforts.
Competent enemies will always find a mesmer. You can use engies with lock on, stealth disruptor traps, or simply just watch for the prestige explosions which, as I mentioned earlier, are seen regardless of stealth. I’ve never had issues finding mesmers stealthing in my keeps, but that might just be because I’m good at this game shrugs.
In conclusion
You’re wrong again.
(edited by Fay.2357)
^^ This. I simply couldn’t agree more.
The whole “PU is OP” comes from people that can’t addapt to the fact that conditions are much better that they used to and get stuck in their all-offensive zerker builds without condi clean/transfer and just keep spamming their abilities at clones and keep dying from confusion procs.
I can’t count how many people managed to:
- AOE me to death
- Hide and then ambush me when I was attacking something else
- Focus me instead of my clones
- Simply run away – as typical PU build has no cripple and most damage comes from confusion on use damage, after a while all I could do is /wave
- Cleanse/convert to boons/transfer my conditions back to me and watch me melt
PU isn’t OP, but the game indeed has changed a bit. Adapt or perish.
This entire post has either been written from an extraordinarily misinformed perspective, or with the explicit purpose of lying.
Near-constant Aegis and Protection coming up every few seconds
Near constant aegis and protection? Hardly. If a Mesmer with PU uses the full 6 seconds of stealth, they still have a 32% chance of not even getting aegis a single time. Hardly ‘near constant’.
as these boons randomly popping hard-counter any kind of strategic play,
This makes zero sense. How does a couple of boons ‘hard counter’ any kind of strategic play? What they do is give slightly more protection to the Mesmer once they unstealth, hardly game changing. I guarantee you that if PU gave no boons, it would still be a meta shatter pick purely for the stealth duration.
Combined with clone bodyblocking
Really? Try targeting the Mesmer next time instead of just randomly spamming your skills in their general direction.
blur, and the lowest cooldown teleport in the game
Blur and the lowest cooldown teleport in the game? In a bursting build? If you’re a power bursting build, you need greatsword. Blur is on mainhand sword, and phase retreat is on staff. You’re mixing like 3 separate builds into one in a sad attempt to call mesmers op.
As far as WvW goes, condi dire PU is the single most unbalanced build to ever exist.
Hardly. Dire is a severely suboptimal stat set to even use on a condie Mesmer instead of rabid.
Played correctly, it ha literally zero counters except for vastly outnumbering it, including directly revealing it through Sic ’Em, Analyze, etc, due to innate durability not seen on other professions with such access to stealth and its constant damage requiring no setup.
Literally everything said here is a lie. Revealing the Mesmer is a very direct counter. Even a tanky class will die rapidly when exposed to pressure from multiple people.
Also, constant damage with no setup? Condie Mesmer means shatter condies, and shatters require setup. The other primary application of conditions is the scepter torment block, and to say a reactive block-counter requires no setup is a unique stance to take.
It has become a staple in most organized group play both small scale and large scale
No it hasn’t. You’re just wrong.
keep and tower defense is almost ignored at the moment
This isn’t even remotely true on any active wvw server.
as there is next to always going to be a mesmer or three hiding somewhere to provide a portal as soon as RI goes.
This is why you sweep. Good players do it, and keep their objectives. Bad players don’t, and lose them.
With no tells on stealth, it makes them much more difficult to spot than any other stealth-based class.
This is a lie. Visual effects from the prestige can be seen even if you’re in stealth when you use it. Mass invisibility is a massive and obvious channel, and veil produces a distinctive persistent ground effect.
In conclusion
You’re wrong.
For PvP PU is alright but I would say inspiration line is better, heal on shatter and condi cleanse as well as healing mantras make the mantra heal viable. The GM can be chosen to suit flavours in shatter builds, it’s just all round good.
Interrupt builds don’t take PU.
Reason for this is there’s so much stuff torun around and LoS behind its almost its own special place as nowhere else in GW2 is it like that.
Where PU is almost entirely necessary is WvW. Why do I say this? Stealth in WvW is so incredibly powerful for getting out of a situation that turns against you.
I mean look at what you see roaming nowadays. It’s high stealth and/or high mobility. I don’t see as many warrior roamers since the change to swiftness not affecting movement skills. What I have seen is an increase in thieves (both trapper condition and DP power), trap and power rangers, condi engineers with traited toss elixir s and PU mesmers.
They all have the same thing in common, stealth and mobility. Thief is still top of the pile but mesmers are giving them a run for their money.
The only way you can justify a nerf to Mesmer stealth in WvW is if you also nerf it for thieves. This would cripple them due to them being balanced around a mechanic which has had little to no counter play for 3 years. No, running around hitting thin air is not counter play.