Guild Wars 2

I think Tool Kit is an amazing kit for PvP/WvW (as it sounds like you’re most into).

You get an AOE cripple, great for kiting. A spike damage Pry Bar that also adds Confusion. Good block. Magnet is the best, pulling people off walls or just bringing them in to set up a spike combo. Works well followed by Pry Bar + Barrage + any other big hitting skills you have equipped.

rogerwilko.6895:

as good as you.

As bad as this grammar is, it’s probably the best answer anyone could possibly give to the question “is the Engineer good?”

If you like the idea of your own skill level determining how well your character does, and you want a high skill cap with the most keypresses and combos in the game then go for the Engi.

The correct answer is “not Mortar”. Whatever your options are, choose “not Mortar”.

Sorry I got mixed up when you said thrown.

I’ll double check and /bug it as well.

The stealth should be 5 seconds either way. The 3 and 3 3/4 seconds are both obsolete regardless to if they refer to Stealth or Stability. Looks like there’s multiple layers to this bug, as we wouldn’t want just a 3 second Stealth added underwater. Make sure you report it in game.

Bloodgruve.6038:

Sitting Duck is a good trait with Bombs/Rifle, it applies on Net shot and Glue Bomb.

Blood~

I have only been disappointed by this trait except in specific 1v1 encounters (rare). It has a cooldown and if your Glue Bomb hits 5 targets it’s only proccing on 1 of them before it goes on cooldown.

It’s not awful, but when a good chunk of our immobilize is AOE this trait doesn’t really add up IMO.

The word ‘viable’ is wildly misused here, but Berserker is the best IF you know when and how to dodge properly. If not it is easily the worst set you can have. I just hate grouping with people who saw on the forums somewhere how everyone should use Berserker no matter what, but they don’t understand how and when to dodge so they’re on the floor 90% of the time.

Honest you can use anything in PvE, whether you like conditions or not. PvE is far more about understanding the mechanics of any individual encounter (including the times you need to dodge) than it is about the gear you’re wearing. More toughness/vitality (Soldier) gives you more room for error. More power/precision/crit (Berserker) let’s you kill stuff faster, so the encounter lasts shorter.

I’m not trying to be “that guy”, Berserker gear at this point in the game is objectively the best as long as you play it properly. I just also wanted to say that if you have something other than Berserker gear you’re not doing it wrong either.

Fall.8475:

blutstein.2468:

Adamantium.3682:

Fall.8475:

My Highly Classified Build’s stats seem better:

random b***

If by “highly classified build” you mean you’re not going to tell us, what is the point of this post? A neener-neener? I-know-something-you-don’t-know?

Great topic, PP. Keep up the good work. I enjoy reading your thoughts on the Engineer, helps me add things to my own builds or use certain parts of yours the way I want to.

easy to tell how the ‘highly classified’ build looks like if you take a look at his stats: 10/30/0/0/30 with SD probably.

But its still a complete mystery whats he purposed with his bland post…

Because there were players keep asking my build in-game. I though I should leaks “some” information after 1.5 years. Would it be better if I continue to keep silence, posting nothing at all and left everyone continue living in an engineer trial and error illusion? Guess no one likes puzzles.

Also complete disclosure of the information would give me more liabilities then benefits. Examples are: A-net Nerfs (They already nerf one of my skills) and PvP countermeasures.

This…. this is good stuff.

Make no mistake about it ladies and gentlemen, this guy is very important!

Fall.8475:

My Highly Classified Build’s stats seem better:

(Exotic Armor and Weapon)

Power 2467
Precision 2014
Toughness 916
Vitality 916

Critical Damage 107%

Condition Damage 300
Condition Duration 10%
Healing Power 0
Boon Duration 0%

Critical Chance 66.29%

Damage % 54.08%
Condition Damage % 0%
Armor 1980
Health 15082
Endurance Regeneration 0%
Agony Resistance 30
Tool Belt Recharge Rate 30%
Farming and Leveling
Bonus Experience 20%
Damage & Survivability

Effective Power 7755.7

Effective Health (EHP) 16265
Damage Reduction 7.27%
Reference Armor 1836

If by “highly classified build” you mean you’re not going to tell us, what is the point of this post? A neener-neener? I-know-something-you-don’t-know?

Great topic, PP. Keep up the good work. I enjoy reading your thoughts on the Engineer, helps me add things to my own builds or use certain parts of yours the way I want to.

Very good video. You play calm and calculated, you don’t look rushed or panicked at all which is great. Sometimes I find myself in that category. I’ll try to stealth in combat but I end up breaking myself out of it.

Good creative combos as well. Could you share your build with us?

You definitely can use the rifle for DPS outside of a Static Discharge build. This is slightly outdated but a good example of how:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/tPvP-Five-Gauge-Chaith-s-Power-Control/first

Comparing the two rifle skill sets is apples and oranges. If you play the Engineer rifle like you want it to be the Warrior rifle, you’re going to have a bad time.

At .75 it won’t be so bad, but compared to all of our other options it still won’t quite add up. I think it needs to do something else in addition to what it brings. I understand the need to balance around that big heal… but with the huge cooldown and the odds of actually hitting that big number it shouldn’t be weighted that heavily.

All of our other heals can remove (a) condition(s). I think AED should be a stun break so it brings something unique and more useful. Of course this means it would have to be instant, which I think fits the theme of the skill more anyways. Bring down the top end heal by ~1000 or so if this is a big deal, though comparing to some of the other heals out there coughcoughHealingSignetcough… I still see those as being more powerful even if AED got these buffs.

You mentioned crit, but it sounds like you have none. Generally crit traits and gear are not useful with Dire, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t great ways to use it.

To answer your question, I think what you’re hearing is just the general dislike of conditions in PvE. Due to the way they stack (or not stack) having more than 1 high condition user in a group isn’t very beneficial.

In WvW I think it’s unpopular for the opposite reason. It’s very very good. Conditions by definition take a longer time to deal their best damage. With Dire gear you’re very tanky. Putting two and two together here… you could be very hard to kill while still dealing supreme damage through conditions.

Oh, and the reason you didn’t hear about it until a couple months before Ascended gear came out is because that’s when it was introduced.

I don’t like the Three Headed Wurm. I like hard content, I enjoy hardcore raiding in other games that have it. Difficulty to me is not the problem. The problem for me is that it is in the open world. Anyone who has raided can tell you that you need to rely on the other people in your raid. When your “raid” involves 100+ pugs that reliance you have to have dissolves quickly.

I don’t think all content should be attainable for all players. Different strokes for different folkes, and all that. I just wish there was some way these types of difficult events (Teq, Wurm) could be tuned instead for ~50 players and in a private instance so guilds could do them together with far better coordination and with players they’re used to working with.

I’m glad there are at least some people out there enjoying the Wurm, but unfortunately at this point I don’t really enjoy it. I think it should be at least tuned down a bit, and in the future I hope they look into putting some of these huge hard fights as something guilds can do together (guild missions!).

All crit damage is going down. Celestial is not being singled out for a nerf. All crit damage in the game is being nerfed. It will still be just as good as it is now relative to other options. I take that back, it may be moved to be second to Berserker (which to be honest it probably should be). Though they did say the best crit damage will still be the best crit damage, it will just all belower. It is only few percentage points between the two anyways.

I don’t know what the gems comment has to do with anything. They don’t sell armor in the gem store so why does it matter if we get the armor we want?

Phineas Poe.3018:

It’s overpowered in the sense that you get significantly more stats added into your build than any of the triple-attribute insignias. It’s not the best at maximizing your DPS, but if you make use of each stat (as we do) then it’s just about as ideal an armor set as you’d want for your engineer.

And for the amount of gold invested making an armor set, you better be sure you’re going to be using it a lot.

You’re right. It is a very flexible set of gear. When making ascended armor as an Engineer, it’s a good choice to make. Going with Rabid/Carrion/Zerker just pigeon holes you if you ever want to change builds which I’m assuming most people do.

Quirky is quirky, I don’t think they reasons for why each class is quirky is relevant. The fact of the matter is both Warden and Engineer are the odd man out compared to the other classes in their respective games. It shows in the population of each.

Bombsaway.7198:

Do all fractals use the same stats (really do not know)? I do know that in WvW you will often want to change your stats out and I do the same with the LS content depending on what it is.

Do you just acquire materials and gold so quickly as to make creating 2-4 sets of ascended gear not a problem? If so, that would confirm the perception that getting ascended is very unbalanced to those who enjoy WvW or simple PvE more than hardcore PvE mode.

The question raised in this thread is what 1 set of gear is the best to use for any given Engineer build. Often I do change my stats out (as stated in the OP) but this is not feasible with Ascended gear.

It takes 24 days to craft 1 set of Ascended armor if you want to stick with the easy to acquire materials, or an obscene amount of money. It does not require hardcore play if you don’t want to drop hundreds of gold on it, just lots of time.

Bombsaway.7198:

In other MMOs, often the unique class has a bit more of a following.

Not in my experience. Wardens in LOTRO (my main) are just as rare as Engis in GW2. To me the Engineer being the quirky and unique class explains it just fine.

I would certainly agree if you don’t care about Ascended or do not do Fractals. I fall under neither category

Specifically it looks a lot like Elixir B.

I get what you mean though, our icon has that weird fuse-type looking thing.

Going back to try another game for a couple months after a big expansion has given me perspective.

GW2 is gasp well balanced. It will NEVER be perfect in any game, but in GW2 at least every profession is useful and generally speaking has a chance to beat any other class 1v1.

The answer to this thread has nothing to do with Engis suck, or Devs hating us (why would they hate something they spend most of their waking hours creating?), it’s simply the Engineer play style. It’s a niche play style, not your typical “warrior/rogue/mage” type. It really doesn’t go deeper than that.

Kratos is right. Though there’s nothing that really needs a petition here. Just rename the title to your suggestions about these traits.

What seems to be your biggest advantage to Celestial isn’t that prevalent when you only have the gear: Critical Damage. Though I agree using just one set of gear is well worth it. That’s the point of the thread after all.

I hadn’t seriously considered Celestial, as I have always got more of the stats I want from my own mixes. That hasn’t been a problem before, as I have many different exotic sets of armor. Now that is no longer feasible with ascended I am quite undecided lol.

I think your advice is best. Celestial may not be ideal for any individual build, but looking at the numbers it’s not bad I may just go that way. Thanks for the input.

Thanks for the reply. When you run Celestial, is that everything? Gear, trinkets, weapons? I posted this in another thread but this is the kind of comparison I’m looking at right now:

My own mix:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqiYH5yuF17IyoCdGoH6VehXfe8WsFEC-jwBBYhBk8AkCBIDtIas1gFRjVJjIqWdDTKAYmDA-e

Celestial:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqOGRGVozA9AAAgR8zDAAAgQA-jQBBYjBMRtIas1gFRjVVjIqWlETKAYmDA-e

The trait/rune/food setup doesn’t really matter I just threw in something that I like that is the same for each one.

I guess pros for Celestial is what you already said. It’s one set of gear, has great critical damage, and more stats than you could get with any home grown combination.

With my own mix it’s more flexible. I could even stay one set of gear (whether it be Carrion, Rabid, etc) and just with the trinkets and weapons really modify it to what I want for any specific situation.

I lean more toward condition damage, especially in WvW. I like to just throw on the conditions then outlast my opponent. I don’t feel like you can do this with Celestial very well. That’s really my only concern with it, though admittedly I haven’t looked at what Rampager weapons (what I have in Ascended since I figured it would fit pretty much any build) and the Rabid/Dire ascended trinkets. That could be okay, but it’s late and I’m going to bed and I haven’t put it through the calculator. If you have experience with Celestial gear (armor) + condition damage trinkets/weapons I’d like to hear about it.

It’s certainly a good set, but I would hardly call it overpowered. You get a ton of stats, but that crit damage doesn’t come for free.

My own hybrid mix I’m looking at:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqiYH5yuF17IyoCdGoH6VehXfe8WsFEC-jwBBYhBk8AkCBIDtIas1gFRjVJjIqWdDTKAYmDA-e

Full Celestial:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqOGRGVozA9AAAgR8zDAAAgQA-jQBBYjBMRtIas1gFRjVVjIqWlETKAYmDA-e

I went a bit condition heavy, but I could easily drop a bit of that and add in some more power to equal the Celestial build and still have considerably higher condition damage. Don’t get me wrong, Celestial is a good all around build and I don’t think it’s wrong to choose it, but you certainly don’t get everything. As hybrid builds go it leans a lot more towards direct damage than condition. If that’s what you like, go for it. If you want more condition damage, try making your own mix like I did.

Tony Snark.

I am Iron Asura.

I respectfully disagree with the previous builds. Managing 3 sets of weapon skill cooldowns is not easy for a beginner. Grenade Kit, while obviously one of the best things we have, is also not very user friendly. It’s hard for a beginner to move and still target the right places when throwing grenades. Engi glass cannon is pretty tough as well. You’ll be dying a LOT if you’re new to the class in that build.

I suggest a very basic condition HGH build.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspSXnwSfF17ICIF5V9J6R+RZT2HFr1DC-ToAAzCpIaS1krJTTymsNNyYuA

You drink elixirs when they’re available. You have condition removal, stealth, stability, boon removal, and all the boons you could want. Once you learn what the elixirs all do exactly you can use them in more specific times.

I’m about halfway to my ascended armor set, still thinking about what stats I want to make.

I mostly PvE, but I switch builds a lot. I’m not in WvW a lot but I like to have good builds for it. I almost exclusively use pistol/shield. Because of this my builds tend to go hybrid, but I like the ability to swap trinkets to have a good condition build if I need to.

So with that all said what do you guys use, or what would you suggest for me to think about? Right now I’m leaning towards Carrion, or 4/2 Carrion/Rabid. Full Rabid seems like it would lack power for a hybrid build, or do you think going Berserker trinkets would compliment it nicely?

Thanks!

LOL great thread. So true.

“What’s better for fighting a group, grenades or bombs?”

Not a huge WvW player, my dislikes might help explain why.

Likes:
1) Using the character I’ve spent hours building in PvE.
2) Ability to be a solo player or just one soldier in a large army.
3) Ability to advance rank and unlock new perks.

Dislikes:
1) I don’t dislike dying BUT when you do die it can take a crazy long time to get back into battle. If you’re roaming you could die just by being unlucky and running into the big zerg but then have to run all the way back every single time. In a game where everywhere else you can instantly teleport anywhere any time you want, this is very detrimental. This is the #1 reason I can’t play WvW for very long before getting very frustrated. When you die in sPvP it’s fine, a few seconds later you’re back in the fight. Not so in WvW. Need more waypoints in WvW, some outside of keeps that can never be contested or something.
2) This is the other side of one of my “likes”. Being able to use your character from PvE means not everything is balanced well for PvP. It’s not fun to play against Runes of Perplexity in a PvP game mode.
3) Zergs. This isn’t just that I don’t large groups, but it becomes exponentially more difficult to deal with a group the more players that are in it. 1 AOE retaliation boon can wipe out half my health from just 1 grenade throw.
4) I don’t want to be “that guy” and I’m not qq’ing about WvW, but I have to include a 4th here. Portals. I don’t like the emphasis that is placed on Mesmers due to portals and veils. No other profession can do anything as crucial as those IMO. I’m not calling them OP, they fit with the Mesmer and I don’t think anything about them is broken. I just don’t think any other class has skills that are as valuable as these are which isn’t exactly fair.

Carighan.6758:

I find it curious that I seem to be entirely alone in simply not minding the backpacks. Yeah, they don’t fit every single character design. Ofc they don’t, neither does the weapon you’re wielding in the kit.

Sure, an option to change the look would be cool, but I’d put it pretty kitten low on the priority list. I mean I get for human engineers it’s bad because the size is so overdone compared to your character. Should have rolled Asura, like the rest of us.

The problem for me isn’t so much that the packs are ugly, but it’s that they cover the other much cooler equipment you’ve worked for. That Jet Pack you grinded money for, then skinned to an ascended back piece? Nope, can’t see it. That awesome shield you finally got? Not happening.

I too enjoy the trait distribution you use. I like seeing successful builds that don’t go into Elixirs.

I question what some of those guys you went up against were thinking at certain points in that video, but sometimes it takes the right opponents to win outnumbered fights. Good video.

“On Crit” sigils are also likely to change. They talked about how a percent chance to trigger on crits is not something they like. These will likely be changed to 100% on crit. They didn’t go too deep about what this means for the cooldowns or potency of these sigils though.

One thing that could be interesting is Sigil of Purity + Generosity, and traiting into Transmute. Could be a rune that removes boons too. That’s a lot of passive condition removal, could be cool.

Asura are more of a humanoid shape than Charr. Most armor won’t look as bizarre on an Asura when compared to a Charr. With that said, Charr are much larger so it’s easy to see your cool weapons and back skins you worked hard for.

In LOTRO I rolled a Hobbit because I just thought it was great to be the smallest little creature taking on huge trolls and such. I employ the same idea in GW2, I love being the tiny little Asura taking on all these huge enemies all the time.

Some find Asura humor annoying. Personally I enjoy it. You’ll get a lot of it, so that’s up to you if you like it or not.

Also, Asura = master race.

Liewec.2896:

Tink Cogwhizzle
Human Engineer

I went for a more sexy look with human cultural t3 chest and viper skirt while still keeping up the techno theme with aetherblade armor and goggles :-3

Is this a leak for Bioshock 4!?

Seriously, great pic!

Mad Rasputin.7809:

They had a pretty simple fix to the hobo-sack issue a while back.

Why not little icons like elementalists have instead of the big, ugly hobo-sacks?

Shouldn’t be that hard to tweak the elementalist’s code and add some new icons.

I don’t know if it was a Dev who initially brought this up (I think it was) or the players, but there is no need for an icon IMO. The idea is that the Hobo Sack is some sort of visual indicator as to what kit the Engineer is in. That’s silly. Nobody is alerted to what kit an Engineer is using by what it looks like (especially since two of them are the same). Within a fraction of a second of an Engineer switching to a kit you know what they do? Use a skill. That’s how you know what kit it is.

To be clear I’m not against icons, I mean why not have them, but I do not buy the idea that is some sort of a road block to dealing with the terrible aesthetics of the Hobo Sacks.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Just face it, grenades are dumb. Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

Hey, I’m with you. I don’t like grenades. But we don’t gain anything extra by subtracting the grenades. The other aspects of the Engineer will still be lackluster, only grenades will join them. We will only have something extra by adding it.

We need addition not subtraction.

I agree with the premise of the thread but not the solution. I haven’t played much in the past month or two so please correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re balanced to other professions with the Grenade Kit right? It’s not like we’re some OP profession everyone plays because Grenades are easy god mode. They’re where the rest of the Engineer should be.

Let’s bring the weak parts of the class up to the level of what the GK can do, not nerf the GK down to the level of, say, Gadgets and Turrets.

While some of his points I don’t agree with, I land on Manuhell’s side of the fence when it comes to kits.

Look, I love kits. I love the Engi. There is no inherent problem when you play with kits. The problem is that it is 1 subset of utilities, it is not our class mechanic that is always present. If I get tired of kits, as I am wont to do from time to time, I can’t just run gadgets or turrets because I’m stuck with my main weapon which Anet even says is balanced with kits in mind. Forget that it takes a utility slot, I’m not concerned with that because they work well. I don’t know what the utility slot really has to do with anything because it’s not like we’re missing out on something when we use a kit. We’re balanced for them. We are indeed the only profession that is admittedly balanced for just 1 of our 4 types of utilities.

This is not like Mesmer illusions because Mesmers can choose from their different subsets of utilities and still have access to illusions. Partly because most of their utilities have something to do with illusions, but mostly because they get illlusions through their weapons. Engineers cannot choose from their different subsets and still have the multiple weapon bars that we’re balanced for.

To keep this on topic, my post boils down to this: love it or hate it, the Engineer is (currently) all about kits. If you don’t like them you won’t like the Engineer. And, well, duh, get past level 5 lol. I don’t have a lot of level cap characters, but I have leveled each profession to ~30 at least twice each. I feel that is the point where you can really get the feel of how the profession truly plays.

I’m going to piggy back onto this thread if you don’t mind…

Haven’t played in a few months. Is 30 points in Explosives still all most people do? I used them almost exclusively before and I got kinda tired of them. I like pistol/shield a lot.

Any significant changes in the past few months that opened up more builds?

Hard content, easy content, whatever you want to call it to me it’s just not fun. I enjoy hard content. To me, this isn’t hard content for the sake of being fun. It’s just annoying. Why do I need a group to get to the top of a tower to an instance I just solo anyways? Fractals are hard and fun (certain ones… okay just lava). This tower is just obnoxious.

To me it’s more frustrating than anything. I feel that I have given the LS a lot of leeway, but the story just feels so out of place in Tyria right now and I’m really tired of zerg first updates.

Evasive Powder Keg is even worse! At least the mines come out only at low health, and with 15 points in the trait line. The dang bomb is at just 5 points and every time you dodge! Sometimes it’s nice, but when I’m trying to stealth it’s very very annoying.

Hello fellow Asurans! I have a simple yet odd request, if you could post a picture of your Asura holding (not stowed) a Destroyer Shield. Preview is not always totally honest when it comes to shield sizes, and it looks very small on preview so I would like to see actual size before I consider making it.

Thanks!

Thanks for the correction. I had thought I remembered something like that, but the wiki didn’t confirm my suspicion. Nades obviously better at procing pretty much anything, but those couple bomb skills can also be handy.

ukuni.8745:

Adamantium.3682:

Dude… Infused Precision + Invigorating speed. 20 points. Perma vigor.

that’s nice but please tell me what build will you run with that and how does it make you a more viable option on a team then any other class? and remember I’m talking about spvp

I’m not going to list out all the builds that can use 10 points in Firearms and 10 points in Alchemy, let’s be real. That’s 50 more trait points you can put into a myriad of different builds. I’m not sure why you want me to do this or what it would prove.

You’re deviating from the point here, which is permanent vigor is NOT gone. You just can’t get it with Speedy Kits anymore.

Haralin.1473:

coglin.1867:

Powerbruce.6710:

yes but it’s a trait based on %, and you can use a over 50 greandes in the time you throw a single mine. same problem but with ratio 1:3 for bombs

Umm, no, just no. the ratio is 15 :11 for grenades to bombs. bomb 1, 2,, and 3 all have one explosion. Smoke bomb and Glue bomb both have their initial explosion plus three pulses. Each pulse has the opportunity to crit.

.

Smoke Bomb and Glue Bomb do no damage read the tooltip!

They still pulse, and as such those pulses apply relevant conditions. Conditions like bleeds from Shrapnel, or vulnerability from Steel Packed Powder.

I believe the pulses can also “crit” even though they’re not doing damage, applying relevant conditions from those types of traits as well which is what he was referring to.

Dude… Infused Precision + Invigorating speed. 20 points. Perma vigor.

Tken.1986:

About Energized Armor and Blood Injection. Increased conversion from 5% to 7%.

To be honest, I am really curious about what make you guys decide to add extra 2%. I really still don’t see any point in investing in this kind of trait at all. In addition, this kind of change to me is like a filler only to make the list look better/longer.

Agreed. I would like to know what they think of traits like these. It’s not a bad idea, not boring like a flat damage increase or something.

I would prefer it be something like 10-15%, but where it’s an actual tradeoff and not just a bonus. 15% of vitality is converted to condition damage. That would provide some meaningful build decisions IMO. Especially because you’re converting out of the vitality you get by default in the Alchemy line. What if someone wants condition damage from that line instead? This would be a meaningful choice, taking away from what the line gives you by default. Currently like you say it’s not very meaningful.

ukuni.8745:

Adamantium.3682:

coglin.1867:

Why would we not have permanent vigor? Infused precision + invigorating speed with any decent crit chance is perma vigor. Which sure as heck beats the button management of having to swap in then out of a kit every 5 sec. Its much easier, much more intuitive to game play, and much much more intelligent to use the combination I mentioned over depending on speedy kits and kitten kit swap management system to keep vigor up.

As well, with any boon duration, it is easy to stack up plenty of duration. Either way, you absolutely have to have 2 traits for permavigor, or depend on an outside source.

As permavigor will not be going anywhere, I do not see how it is relevant.

I know right? I’m kind of tired of hearing about the Great Vigor Nerf of 2013.

Not only that, but I would like to see a record of how much time all these people complaining about this phantom nerf actually spend with full endurance. You know, because vigor does nothing when you’re at full endurance.

I agree with this thread with 1 caveat, Engis have insufficient condition cleanse if you don’t trait for it. Saying Eles (or any profession) can do it better is meaningless because professions are by definition different, but unless you trait specifically into elixirs and Cleansing Formula 409 I agree our condition removal is quite poor.

I’m less interested in how people plan to get permanent vigor and more interested in how people plan to adapt to the change and how it will effect us in spvp, you can’t put 30 points into getting permanent vigor in spvp without taking away from what your build is ment to do.

I’ll go more in-depth about the topic when I finish, till then put some thought into it

You still only need 20 points, as has been gone over ad nauseum.