Guild Wars 2

Dark Catalyst.1028:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Heh, what pressure? I decided to take a more relaxed approach with this expansion and just stuck with lfr and whatever else I found fun. Haven’t felt pressured otherwise. I do feel pressure in this game though, mainly feeling forced to log in and rush through temporary content in order to experience it all and collect my AP.

I wanted to be able to play with my guild mates, so I had to ‘catch up.’ There was no way around playing that catch up, and they didn’t enjoy ‘coming down’ to my level because they’d already done it. It offered no challenge.

GW2 doesn’t create the same feeling for me. I don’t have to ‘catch up’ (in gear) to access content. Hell, if I want to run my sorry lvl 20 toon to Orr, I can…although it might result in some expensive repairs. If I want to take that lvl 20 through CM with a guild group, I can. Nothing is barred to me because my gear rating wasn’t ‘xyz’, like it was in WoW.

Additionally, going back to lower level areas can still be enjoyable, since we’re not one shoting everything. Admitted, downscaling does still need some work, more so now with the addition of ascended gear.

Flex raids through Open Raid. Problem solved.

Flex raids and oQueue (which is an illegal mod btw, but that’s another issue entirely.) Solved 0 problems for my playstyle. All it was for me was a LFR with a longer queue and a bunch of elitists telling me my ilevel isn’t high enough.

Seriously, it’s just a bunch of dudes that think if you aren’t heroic geared already, you are a burden. Flex raids drove me away from raiding almost as much as the gear treadmill itself.

Danikat.8537:

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

Aeonblade:

Restriction: Only ANet employees would be able to see the highlighted posters so that no forum viewers (including the ‘Flagged’ poster themselves) would know they had been singled out.

Therefore, no public MVPs, thus no power trip, right?

I think that might have been in response to my suggestion that it should be public – like a title displayed under their name.

I’ve never seen the WoW forums so I don’t know what that’s like. I know some forums with volunteer community moderators where people accuse them of all being on a power-trip (and others where they actually are) but I didn’t think you’d get the same reaction if they don’t have any actual authority over other posters.

Yea I was mainly referring to the title thing. I think it’s a great idea if they stay hidden, but giving them a title just gives ragers someone new to yell at

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

Aeonblade:

Restriction: Only ANet employees would be able to see the highlighted posters so that no forum viewers (including the ‘Flagged’ poster themselves) would know they had been singled out.

Therefore, no public MVPs, thus no power trip, right?

Gotcha. Great idea. +1. As long as they manage to stay hidden, this has the chance to make at least a small difference. Guess I need to work on my reading comprehension some, because I read that totally wrong the first time lol.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Aeonblade.8709:

Also, yes GW2 has a pretty steep gear grind. I was able to gear myself out much faster in WoW than I am in GW2. But GW2 doesn’t pressure me nearly as much as WoW did to get the gear. Yea, it would be nice and really helpful to have full ascended, but at the end of the day, the game leaves it up to you, and doesn’t restrict you from anything but Fractals. GW2 is more casual friendly than almost any game out there, sans the ascended gear tier.

See, I had the exact opposite experience when it came to being geared in WoW. Additionally, there really weren’t as many options available for looks, at least to me. Several that I ended up interested in for transmuting purposes where no longer available or people did not bother doing that content. Complete and utter nightmare. I did definitely feel the gear pressure, which ruined my play. Always working for something that negates all the time I put in previously…because I couldn’t play the game otherwise… yeah, no thanks.

While GW2 does have the ascended bullkitten, I feel no pressure to obtain it. Oh, I;m sure I will eventually, but it’s not like I locked out of anything even if I never do. This I like immensely. Hopefully, they will take the suggestions and opinions in the CDI to heart and give us additional means of acquisition (outside of crafting, like via karma or dungeons), which will make a lot of people happy.

In all honesty, the only real reason it takes so little time to gear up in WoW now is because of the Looking for Raid feature. Works just like a dungeon queue, and get free epics. But the pressure to move beyond LFR into Heroic mode and get better loot got old fast. I think most people are tired of the treadmills. If it had been the WoW of Cata, sure it would have taken a lot longer.

So…like an MVP system a la WoW forums? It was a good idea in theory, then you realize the power goes to their heads and they feel above other posters. Every single MVP on those forums now is looked down upon.

I don’t feel like singling people out and giving them a power trip is going to fix the negative white noise, but it’s an idea nonetheless.

Basically, I feel like all the “contributors” would be is another lightning rod for people to vent their anger against, and valuable posters don’t deserve to be belittled because of a title or position.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

You pay for access and quality service. Maybe if everyone here in GW2 paid $5 or $10 a month, we’d get something better than Scarlet and temporary content.

chuckle

WoW players pay a sub and they got Pandaria…. you saw how well that ‘quality’ content went over. Like a lead brick… I don’t think I’ve heard anything good about that expansion.

As someone who just recently went back to WoW for the Siege of Orgrimmar release, I can confirm that MoP was terrible. I was done with the entire expansion and all of the new raids in 1.5 months, and it left a bad taste in my mouth the whole time.

Subs a good game does not make.

Don’t get me wrong, there is still a place for sub based MMOs, you just better have a lot better product than the competition, which currently is not the case for any sub based game.

EDIT: Also, yes GW2 has a pretty steep gear grind. I was able to gear myself out much faster in WoW than I am in GW2. But GW2 doesn’t pressure me nearly as much as WoW did to get the gear. Yea, it would be nice and really helpful to have full ascended, but at the end of the day, the game leaves it up to you, and doesn’t restrict you from anything but Fractals. GW2 is more casual friendly than almost any game out there, sans the ascended gear tier.

Insane Pancakez.9182:

It’s okay guys! We can make our new threads in the Living story, or Spvp sub forums. They won’t even notice we’re there!

Haha, so very true.

Honestly I know I’m gonna catch flak for this, but I like Thackeray. He has a good sense of honor, even if he does like to run away

Another one of my favorites is Warmaster Forgal Kernsson. Such a beast. Charge in and kill everything. My kind of leader.

VOLKON.1290:

Palador.2170:

Pfft.

A ranger. With Dev powers. And she appears to have ditched her pet.

I think you’re missing the point.

There’s… something… about that wall!

Do these cracks look like a walrus to you guys?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Aeonblade.8709:

What you say is generally true, I’m not advocating ignoring your friends or ignoring reviews of the game. But personally, I have found it better to listen to these people, and the reviews, and then make my own decision going forward. Something that doesn’t work for even my best of friends may be the perfect game for me. I’ve had far too many reviews and people tell me something is awful and when I go to try it for myself, it turns it that it was much better than they were willing to admit.

I just advocate keeping an open mind on something till I try it myself. I have had better experiences making my own decisions of what my interests should be. But never discount your friends

chuckle

You’ll never see me argue against being open minded. Being open minded is what brought my husband and myself to GW1 to begin with.

Indeed, I never would of tried GW2 if I hadn’t been open minded. You certainly can’t use these forums as a metric of whether or not you should buy it hehe.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Aeonblade.8709:

So, heresay and rumors. Wait until you get your hands on a game before you start bashing it for it’s decisions. The decisions were made for a reason. And the reason they haven’t released videos detailing every little facet of the game is because it’s still a closed beta, like it or not.

Come on guys, we know better than to judge a book by it’s cover at this point. If we did that no one would of ever played WoW, GW2, or any MMO because of what “some dude that I know said this thing.”

Personally, I’m gonna withhold any kind of judgement till release day, both for WildStar and ESO. But to say GW2 has nothing to worry about from either of these games is silly. Elder Scrolls IP alone is worth more than everything ANet has ever done. Do not underestimate the power of 10s of millions of fans. Will ESO suck at release? Who knows. But make the judgement for yourself, and think for yourself when the time comes.

Taking the opinions of people you know personally into consideration may be relying on heresay, but generally it’s at least valid, first hand information.

It’s true that we shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, but is that not what we do with every mmo? Do we not go out and seek out reviews, and videos, etc prior to trying any game to see what others are saying, in order to help us to determine whether or not we want to invest the funds to even bother trying it to begin with?

What you say is generally true, I’m not advocating ignoring your friends or ignoring reviews of the game. But personally, I have found it better to listen to these people, and the reviews, and then make my own decision going forward. Something that doesn’t work for even my best of friends may be the perfect game for me. I’ve had far too many reviews and people tell me something is awful and when I go to try it for myself, it turns it that it was much better than they were willing to admit.

I just advocate keeping an open mind on something till I try it myself. I have had better experiences making my own decisions of what my interests should be. But never discount your friends

The chat alone makes this entire SS worth it.

Jeeze, 2 more pages of people trying to impress their definitions on others. Think it’s time to flag this post and get it closed. It’s nothing but two sides arguing over whose is bigger at this point.

So, heresay and rumors. Wait until you get your hands on a game before you start bashing it for it’s decisions. The decisions were made for a reason. And the reason they haven’t released videos detailing every little facet of the game is because it’s still a closed beta, like it or not.

Come on guys, we know better than to judge a book by it’s cover at this point. If we did that no one would of ever played WoW, GW2, or any MMO because of what “some dude that I know said this thing.”

Personally, I’m gonna withhold any kind of judgement till release day, both for WildStar and ESO. But to say GW2 has nothing to worry about from either of these games is silly. Elder Scrolls IP alone is worth more than everything ANet has ever done. Do not underestimate the power of 10s of millions of fans. Will ESO suck at release? Who knows. But make the judgement for yourself, and think for yourself when the time comes.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Tru Reptile.6058:

Aarean.5398:

Good job anet its definitely a deserved award. Im so glad they could give gw2 its props without even mentioning wow. The naysayers get over it. Its over with and no mmo out nor that will come out next year will be able to compete with the sheer level of injected content at the pace they manage to keep up with. Wildstar. Teso. They wont be able to keep up. Anet has a gold star that wont be beaten for a long time.

Too bad quantity =/= quality. As long as Wildstar and TESO don’t follow Anet’s method of delivering ‘content’ then they have nothing to worry about.

You need a balance of the 2. Too little quality and you got a bad game, too little quantity and you got a boring game.

And TESO/Wildstar has a lot to worry about. WS is competiting right in WoW’s back yard, down to the artwork and graphics (after WoD’s character model upgrade): no one has managed to out-WoW WoW. They need a reason for people to play it rather than WoW (other than just semi-slapstick humor), which is what I’m not seeing.

TESO is already being bashed over its P2P model and shallow combat (the combat on ES games has never been complex and sophisticated but it’s a MMO this time). Not a good starting point.

…What? I’m assuming you haven’t played the ESO beta… Anet needs to get their butts in overdrive before April.

Grats GW2! Now let’s get the ball rolling on some real content updates and bug fixes in 2014 so we don’t hit the other end of the spectrum. Too many huge titles coming out to lollygag around this year And I can assure you ESO and WildStar are going to bring the heat in 2014. Good luck!

Some more stuff I thought of over the night:

• Legendary questline. I don’t know anyone that gets excited about collecting 250 of every material required for the current crafting of one. There needs to be a Legendary Quest arc that gives us a reliable way to get a legendary.

• Account bound all magical items you use on your character. Why can’t I use my Guardian’s old gear on my Warrior? It’s not like I can sell it on the TP. Or do anything at all useful with it.

• New skill sets and 2-3 new trait lines that give us new combinations of stats. Why do I have to get condition damage to get precision on my Guardian? What a waste. Or let us choose from a pool of stats available to each trait line.

While I think it’s a good idea personally to limit the dailies to 5AP (to prevent people from grinding themselves into a coma), It really doesn’t solve any problem. Why should we care about AP? What does it do to make our character better or stronger? All AP does is give you a couple of skins as is now anyway, I just see no reason why we can’t let people who want to farm all the daily steps get the AP for a skin…

Now if they were giving out ascended gear for AP rewards, then yes, we’d need to limit the daily to 5 AP. But as it stands it’s just a few meh skins anyway.

lordkrall.7241:

No, abuse in as actively attacking other players personally instead of keeping it on a sensible level and against servers rather than people.

Which I have not seen very much of. 90% of WvW matchup subforum is 2 guilds having a competitive chat talking each other up, and usually when one beats the other, most of the time, they congratulate each other on a hard fight. Are there exceptions? Of course. Are there going to be trolls? Of course.

I’d rather them leave it completely unmoderated than talk to me like I’m 6 and the players are the problem. Especially when no one here is really complaining but Anet imo.

1. Guardian
2. Necro
3. Engie (if they ever fix them)
4. Ranger (if they ever fix them)
5. Uh…maybe warrior?

Personally, my list for horizontal is as follows:

• More skins and weapon skins. Like, a lot more. The game seems devoid of choices in this category. I can walk around LA and everyone is wearing the same stuff, because it’s the only stuff that looks good.

• More titles, means of achieving said titles, and making the WvW Ultimate Titles actually obtainable

• I’d like to see a progressive horizontal skill set. Something that maybe changes the color of guardian skills from blue > red and changes the skill animations accordingly. Doesn’t add any power, and let’s us customize our characters spell effects.

• Fixes for costume disparity: Why can’t I buy the good looking armor with my WvW badges? Why are there next to no skins in WvW? Where are the exclusive WvW skins for season participation? Inquiring minds are wondering

I’m sure I’ll think of more, but this is just what I have mostly been thinking about today to get the ball rolling.

Every time I see this thread title it reminds me of Soul Calibur’s Ivy. “This is the end” stupid flaming boot/whip nonsense.

On topic:

All is vain.

Jski.6180:

TChalla.7146:

Well… I suppose I could keep coming back and explaining my view on whether or not this is a “pay to win” game or not, but it appears to be going nowhere fast.

For PvE, the idea of pay to win is silly anyway, and why should anyone care if someone spends real money to buy everything and not play the game? How does it negatively affect you overall in PvE? The only person I can see it affecting negatively is the person that actually spent the money, got everything they wanted, and then sat back and thought “hmmm… now what?”

To each his/her own.

Its the same few ppl posting over and over the same views over and over the argument is and has been over for some time. Alone from the up votes the forum communally have showed that its not a real argument to make any more (at the time of posting the first post has no indicator of any up votes yet the counter augmenter has max up votes).

Um. The OP and the first post both say they don’t believe the game is P2W. Which is fine. But your post here makes absolutely no sense, because the OP’s post agrees with the first post.

So….What?

As for “stop throwing around P2W because it damages games” Or what such was said, well, make it less P2W and it won’t even be up for debate

aspirine.6852:

styx.7294:

Vena.8436:

Easterbunny.6170:

And the fact that this is normal is part of what makes this heavy handed move by the corporation responsible for this content reverberate. My understanding was that this development team was old school. The same one that developed my personal favorite game of all time, DAOC. They should realize that all of this is normal. This “We are going to take away your toys” Move by them reeks of a new team with no experience. That worries me quite a lot.

This has been a corporate trend lately.

You can’t even smack talk on XBLive anymore without being banned because if you happen to hurt some 12 y-olds feelings and they tell their mom, you’ll get reported and temp-banned.

That’s not a bad thing.

It is a very bad thing.

Yea, that really stinks. Good bye competition, working for something, and challenge. Hello politically correct everyone is a winner socialist empire. Flying spaghetti monster help us.

(I’m reaching here obviously, come on guys)

TChalla.7146:

BeoErgon.9107:

VOLKON.1290:

Concise, well worded, and wrong.

Pay to be equal a little more quickly is not pay to win.

Don’t forget something essential:
Pay to be equal a little more quickly AND without any need to play the game.
Makes a really big difference.
Get the same things as players that played the game but without playing it and quicker. If you are ok with this and don’t consider that you are buying the endgame then fine.
PVE is not about beating someone else, it is about beating the game( grinding it to death if necessary – and God knows I hate it) . Bypass this with money and you have a P2W.

That’s not pay to win either. That is more of a “pay to bypass the reason for buying the game in the first place.”

In a game with “no vertical progression” (heh), you are essentially making the P2W apply to cosmetics and time sinks rather than actual power. Winning in this game is getting legendaries and ascended items that make your character appear differently from others.

It’s simply the difference between a horizontal progression vs vertical. Not to mention in all actuality there is a vertical grind, albeit only 5% of an increase in stats.

So really, either way you look at it, by definition, the game is P2W.

milo.6942:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

milo.6942:

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

Concise and well worded. Great post +1

Concise, well worded, and wrong.

Pay to be equal a little more quickly is not pay to win.

You can buy a legendary directly from the auction house.

Which just leads us back to the circle of everyone’s definition of P2W is going to be different.

kratan.4619:

Aeonblade.8709:

kratan.4619:

Aeonblade.8709:

Vena.8436:

styx.7294:

I coulda done without the “It is disappointing” though. Don’t pay money to impress you, ArenaNet. And considerin that I’ve been a bit disappointed about design decisions in this game too, that really puts us in an awkward place where apparently we’re just standin around bein disappointed with each other.

The community reps have a very odd “familial” tone they use that I’ve noticed. I think its meant to be taken as a “we’ve given you xyz chances at this” but it comes off like some sort of mother-figure scolding you for a getting a C.

What’s disappointing is the treatment of this community since day 1.

To expand upon this: Are we even supposed to be competing in WvW or is it kum ba ya time? Playing DAoC, everyone used the VN boards. I would see things every day that would make a sailor blush. No one even thought twice about it, we just ignored foul mouthed trolls and moved on.

VN boards best MMO community all time.

Correct, while playing DaoC we posted on the VN, not on any official forums. This only supports what Anet is doing.

The problem with that logic is that the only reason the VN boards were popular was because there were no official forums. If that had been their stance on WvW discussion from the beginning, fine, great, it worked wonderful for DAoC. But they waited a year and a half, on top of telling us they were “disappointed”. It just reeks of a PR disaster, and I think Anet is a better company than that honestly. Sure we complain about fixes and updates, but at the end of the day, Anet is still one of the better companies out there to manage a game imo.

So Anet makes a mistake by having a WvW matchups subthread, admits that it is a mistake, they should still not attempt to correct it because “the horse is already out of the barn”?

…what? They didn’t admit to anything. All they did was slap the player’s hands and say no pudding for you! And I don’t think having official forums is a mistake. It’s a boon to developers because they get hands on with player feedback rather than searching through 20 pages of some random board.

milo.6942:

There is so much convoluted and desperate definition shuffling here it’s just pathetic.

Firstly, how do you win in pve? What is the end goal of pve? I’m asking you. Tell me, how do you win pve? If you say pve can’t be won, then stop reading here. Gw2 is not p2w. If you think achieving or competing in any of the following would be considered “winning” or “endgame” then read on:

• Legendaries
• Ascended
• WvW
• Fractals

P2W does not refer exclusively to things that are bought with money with no alternatives. If you don’t agree, then stop reading. GW2 is not P2W for you. However, there are many games that would commonly be considered P2W that allow players the option to bypass large amounts of grind or time-gating by spending some money. In this sense GW2 is indisputably P2W, but probably fairly mild in comparison to other games.

TL;DR

1. P2W term generally includes games that bypass grind with $$$
2. GW2 allows you to bypass grind with $$$
3. GW2 is P2W (the degree is up to you to determine)

Concise and well worded. Great post +1

EnemyCrusher.7324:

How many gems do I need to buy to get Izzy to come to my door singing Wintersday carols?

Like, all of them

kratan.4619:

Aeonblade.8709:

Vena.8436:

styx.7294:

I coulda done without the “It is disappointing” though. Don’t pay money to impress you, ArenaNet. And considerin that I’ve been a bit disappointed about design decisions in this game too, that really puts us in an awkward place where apparently we’re just standin around bein disappointed with each other.

The community reps have a very odd “familial” tone they use that I’ve noticed. I think its meant to be taken as a “we’ve given you xyz chances at this” but it comes off like some sort of mother-figure scolding you for a getting a C.

What’s disappointing is the treatment of this community since day 1.

To expand upon this: Are we even supposed to be competing in WvW or is it kum ba ya time? Playing DAoC, everyone used the VN boards. I would see things every day that would make a sailor blush. No one even thought twice about it, we just ignored foul mouthed trolls and moved on.

VN boards best MMO community all time.

Correct, while playing DaoC we posted on the VN, not on any official forums. This only supports what Anet is doing.

The problem with that logic is that the only reason the VN boards were popular was because there were no official forums. If that had been their stance on WvW discussion from the beginning, fine, great, it worked wonderful for DAoC. But they waited a year and a half, on top of telling us they were “disappointed”. It just reeks of a PR disaster, and I think Anet is a better company than that honestly. Sure we complain about fixes and updates, but at the end of the day, Anet is still one of the better companies out there to manage a game imo.

TooBz.3065:

Anyway, label it how you want, I am not at all offended by GW2 cash -> gems -> gold conversion or it’s gold -> gems conversion. I don’t feel pressured to spend cash for gold, gold is easy enough to come by.

Ding ding, we have a winner.

We can all label it however we want to, as long as it doesn’t bother us, and we can still play and have fun. Everyone’s definition of what is P2W is going to be different. The good thing about GW2 is, it’s right on the line so much that 2 people with different opinions can disagree on it. So at least they got it right enough to start the debate in the first place

Vena.8436:

Aeonblade.8709:

Hate to burst your bubble, but that is exactly how a lot of professional sports players and even Olympians talk. Look no further than every time a fight breaks out on the football field between 2 NFL teams. It happens all the time.

The heavy handed moderation/ no competition ever attitude is what bred this entire “Every kid should get a trophy just for trying in sports, even if they are overweight and a burden on their team.” Attitude we are having to choke down in society today.

You may want to reconsider the example.

The NFL is a terrible example of allowing freedom of expression within its ranks, and has been getting worse in recent years.

Yea I guess that’s true. Not a very good example but it’s what I came up with off the top of my head because most American players will identify with football more than any other example.

Also to clarify, I don’t condone just cursing at people and raging. I do condone the competitive spirit, which is mostly good natured.

styx.7294:

NightShadow.1429:

Personally I think they need to take a page out of Riots book. Have they majorly screwed up a time or two and have had to give a community apology (whether it be on something they said would happen and didn’t, or something they said that was insulting/border over the line), sure it’s happened. But their staff actually INTERACTS in a REAL AND MEANINGFUL way with the community. They engage, they talk things over, they post about what they’re working on, or their thoughts on balance ect. None of the “Hi there, we at ArenaNet…” No, they speak for themselves as a person unless of course it’s some announcement that requires them to say “Hey guys, this is what’s up”.

Now, I’m not saying that when staff here post, it isn’t meaningful. But it isn’t real, it sounds dictated and pre-written, not at all one human speaking to another. Also, can their forums get crazy? Absolutely… but for the most part, as long as we aren’t calling people out, seriously flaming or posting porn, we’re left along to have discussions. If you guys want this to be able to turn into an Esport, you’re going to have to get used to kitten talking, because it happens in ANY competitive environement. It’s what gets people riled up and rearing to go, it’s develops rivalries and promotes the competition.

This is Guild Wars 2, not Neopets, do I think people should be flaming/trolling or being complete kittenes? Not at all. Do I think the moderation and general tone of the forums could use a loosening of the steel grip it currently has? Absolutely.

Really? Is this how people in professional sports talk to each other in a game? At the Olympics? Or is it just a tradition we inherited from when video games were mostly immature boys?

Hate to burst your bubble, but that is exactly how a lot of professional sports players and even Olympians talk. Look no further than every time a fight breaks out on the football field between 2 NFL teams. It happens all the time.

If you think competition doesn’t breed competitive talk, I really don’t know what to tell you. It’s hard wired into the human brain to compete and be the best. Do you not find it amusing and even more rewarding when you crush someone who was just trash talking?

The heavy handed moderation/ no competition ever attitude is what bred this entire “Every kid should get a trophy just for trying in sports, even if they are overweight and a burden on their team.” Attitude we are having to choke down in society today. Life isn’t fair, and it never has been.

Conncept.7638:

Aeonblade.8709:

Real spell effects. Swinging my scepter like a sword and nothing happening is annoying.

Lol, I would assume by that comment that you are a necro. My second 80 is but I went with a Staff and D/F, and I’ve recently started a retaliation Axe build. Never been able to get myself to use the scepter, even though it’s my favorite on my main, an elementalist.

Yea I should of clarified, my Guard scepter effects are fine for the most part, I’m referring to my necro alt.

Vena.8436:

styx.7294:

I coulda done without the “It is disappointing” though. Don’t pay money to impress you, ArenaNet. And considerin that I’ve been a bit disappointed about design decisions in this game too, that really puts us in an awkward place where apparently we’re just standin around bein disappointed with each other.

The community reps have a very odd “familial” tone they use that I’ve noticed. I think its meant to be taken as a “we’ve given you xyz chances at this” but it comes off like some sort of mother-figure scolding you for a getting a C.

What’s disappointing is the treatment of this community since day 1.

To expand upon this: Are we even supposed to be competing in WvW or is it kum ba ya time? Playing DAoC, everyone used the VN boards. I would see things every day that would make a sailor blush. No one even thought twice about it, we just ignored foul mouthed trolls and moved on.

VN boards best MMO community all time.

TChalla.7146:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ashen.2907:

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

It’s like i’m a wizard or something… I point out how the game is P2W and how people will justify it by any means possible and then this happens.

Based on this definition GW2 can never be P2W, even Anet can’t make their own game P2W with this definition as long as gold->gems is in the game.

Even if they put armor in the gem store that gives +1,000,000,000 stats it still isn’t P2W because hey… “GOLD TO GEMS I DON”T NEED THE GEM STORE"

Just keep moving that line…

There was no line to move. It cannot be considered pay to win if the same results can be had by other means. Is it taking an easier route? Yes. Are they paying to win? Nope.

Uh, what you said is fundamentally pay to win. If they can get items that increase their power quicker than someone actually playing the game normally would, that is P2W. I won’t bother saying google the definition because it’s been said already.

Call it Pay 2 Shortcut or whatever you need to call it to make you feel warm and fuzzy, the bottom line is they are paying, and they are winning, faster than a normal player would.

Real spell effects. Swinging my scepter like a sword and nothing happening is annoying.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Aeonblade.8709:

No, that’s not what I was referring to specifically, just that they filter feedback at all seems weird to me. I’m not saying it was a bad thing, it’s just not something I have heard of before.

So they have a customer support team for the customer support team?

Well everyone in my company is responsible for making our clients happy whether we’re in support or not. We all get access to the customer feedback that the folks on the front line hear or that we get through surveys and such so that we can understand what folks like and where they’re having issues.

We have a team that collects the feedback, sorts it out and sends out the most useful comments (positive and negative) to the rest of the company every so often so we can look around our area of responsibility and see if there’s something we can do to make things better. The more constructive the criticism, the further it travels.

I expect that it’s similar for ANet. Not every developer can read every post on the forum or every e-mail. Some group of folks is filtering and collecting the feedback for the rest of the team to look over and discuss. Players are more likely to be heard if they express themselves in a less antagonistic way.

Not bad ideas, seems pretty efficient. Now if we could get my phone company to do this… So terrible.

TooBz.3065:

LordByron.8369:

You can Google pay to win…..

Start with that……

I d say you will find most of that described in those articles as part of GW2.

What is needed to get the best gear?
GOLD

How much? really a lot.

You can get gold via real money that is alone pay to win.

AKA being able to have advantage over Others paying real money

So WoW that has a huge goldseller problem is not pay to win, while ANet which chose to monetize that which is happening anyway is P2W? Also Diable 3 was P2W until recently?

You can’t buy end game gear in WoW for gold. But you can in this game. That’s the major difference I think.

And you are right, Diablo 3 was very P2W, much moreso than GW2

Yargesh.4965:

Aeonblade.8709:

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

Don’t bring math into this, you might make their heads pop off!

Can’t be easy being so clever.

It generally isn’t.

BeoErgon.9107:

I find it hard when people start arguing that 5% stat increase is nothing.
It is. In a game driven by numerical calculations it can make a difference.

Sure, a bad player in ascended will never win against a good player in exotics. But what about equally skilled players? 5% MAKES a difference.

And this is where all your 5% increase is nothing fails. It will never give power to bad players over good, but among equally good players, ascended gives an edge. Whoever tries to deny this is simply a fool.

An increase is an increase whatever you think about it. 5 will ALWAYS be more than 0 and you can play semantics as much as you like , this will never change. Even 1% is an increase and something that might help to differentiate two equally skilled players. See? It’s called an advantage.

Don’t bring math into this, you might make their heads pop off!

MrRuin.9740:

Aeonblade.8709:

If I can buy gold with RL money and use that to buy most of what I need to craft/make/whatever ascended armor/jewelry/weapons, it’s a P2W game. You are right, the line isn’t fuzzy at all, I think everyone just draws their own line, and no two lines are going to be alike.

The argument is arguing the wrong thing. This game has pay elements.
It does not have win elements that are purchased with that pay system, which is what the argument is. Whatever you buy with RL money, anybody can get in game with time. All you are buying is the convenience of time. You are not buying anything to win. You can buy all you want in the GW2 cashshop, charge all the RL money you want and make 10 full sets of Ascended if you like. What did you buy to “win”? Nothing, as someone with Exotics can still kill you and do everything you can do with equal ease.

GW2 has pay elements.
GW2 lets you buy boosters.
GW2 lets you buy the convenience of time.
GW2 lets you buy prettiness via skins.
GW2 lets you buy ‘endgame’ gear by charging and converting RL money.
GW2 lets you farm all of the same ‘endgame’ gear in game. Ascended, while tedious, does not take long to farm.
Anything GW2 lets you do with RL money does not in any way make you better or able to do things people do not charge cannot, except save time. That time does not allow you do anything else any sooner other than flash that gear around. It does not let you win easily in WvW. It does not let you into dungeons better. It does not enable you to do anything.

The argument of semantics is coming down to what is “winning”.
I rarely charge RL money, I did once for a character slot. Noone that has charged hundreds of dollars can do anything more than me. Noone that has Legendary or Ascended can do anything more than me. Noone is going to win based on 5% increase in stats. If this were true, certain sigils would cost 200+ gold.

Pretty much spot on, I agree. To me it’s a P2W system, but to you it wouldn’t be. It’s all in the eye of beholder and as you said arguing semantics. Good post +1.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Aeonblade.8709:

^ What? So they filter the negative feedback? That seems…backwards.

I’m assuming you are referring to this?

Pandemoniac.4739:

My company regularly distributes customer feedback, positive and negative, to all of us (…) I have never seen any of the negative comments contain statements calling the folks in the company stupid, incompetent, greedy, etc.

Yeah, negative feedback gets filtered when it’s not constructive. It’s something to keep in mind when you’re dealing with any company’s customer support. Most businesses recognize that there are some customers that you won’t be able to satisfy no matter what you do and focus their efforts on the relationships that can be turned around.

My company is also committed to what they call “employee engagement” because happy employees make for a better experience for the customers they interact with. I’m fairly sure we don’t get the venomous feedback inflicted on us because it would be more demoralizing than useful in helping us figure out what we could do better.

I think it would take a really special type of person to listen to someone calling them stupid and incompetent and get anything out of that conversation other than “wow, that person is angry”. Calling me names doesn’t make me want to help you or make me care about your problems. That’s just human nature.

No, that’s not what I was referring to specifically, just that they filter feedback at all seems weird to me. I’m not saying it was a bad thing, it’s just not something I have heard of before.

So they have a customer support team for the customer support team?

Spicyhash.7605:

There is no penalty for getting downed besides having less times you can get downed for a short period. It goes white > yellow > red > you’re dead. Your armor should be damaged each time you get downed, in addition to this downed sickness. It’s so annoying that people can get downed over and over again and keep getting rallied by NPCs, killing stuff with downed abilities, or teammates reviving them.

If armor was damaged on down, even if you got downed 4 times and won the fight, your armor would still be damaged. Persistent penalty for getting downed. Any reason why this is a bad idea, and why?

Are you kidding me? As broke as we are in WvW already? How about we just get rid of downed state in PvP and WvW? Isn’t that what everyone wants to begin with?

MrRuin.9740:

Aeonblade.8709:

Yes, GW2 is very P2W oriented. It is no different than all the other Korean Grinders out there, sans a few key things like WvW.

Whether people like it or not, spending RL money in the in game cash shop gives you huge bonuses, which is the definition of P2W. The only way it wouldn’t be P2W is if the amount of time to farm something in game was proportionate to your IRL wages being able to buy you the same thing for the same amount of time. It’s a hard concept for most to understand, but any game that promotes the use of cash to get ahead of other players is most definitely P2W.

I assume from that statement you have not played a Korean grinder. Even Legendary making is a cakewalk compared to some of the grind out there.
The cashshop here is not giving you huge advantages. You can get a few boosters and Ascended/Legendary. Both of which are farmable in game, and neither is needed to “win” at anything.
You can buy whatever you need to speed up your Ascended making process, go out into the world and someone with Exotics can still be far better than you in PvE and can still kill you in 1vs1 if you run into them in WvW. You haven’t bought the ability to win. You have bought the convenience of time. There is a difference there.

If said items gave you the ability to automatically guarantee you a win at anything, I would be inclined, but its simply not. Time is also a convenience, not a win.
The line to P2W isn’t a fuzzy one. If someone could buy a tier of gear that guaranteed them victory over anyone with exotics, then the line to P2W has been crossed. You simply cannot buy that kind of advantage here.

Played L2 and Aion at release. Also dabbled in L1 and several other games. I have played them. This game is more similar to those than say, Everquest or WoW imo. The grind in this game for materials and such is very similar to L2 style grinding.

Opinions are like…well you know the old saying.

To me, it’s clearly in the P2W category, but not enough to affect my game to the point of driving me away.

If I can buy gold with RL money and use that to buy most of what I need to craft/make/whatever ascended armor/jewelry/weapons, it’s a P2W game. You are right, the line isn’t fuzzy at all, I think everyone just draws their own line, and no two lines are going to be alike.

^ What? So they filter the negative feedback? That seems…backwards.

I guess I’m missing all these threads. Yea I have seen a few take swipes at the devs, but nothing in any of the threads I read has been really bad.

Grind is coming. Or is it winter. Either way, look for longer grinds and more useless LS content.

The good news is with EoTM and a supposed “content” patch, we might actually get something come February I’m optimistic that the LS is going to be a debacle of the past and we will start getting some real information on an expansion. It’s pretty much impossible at this point to not release an expansion at the current rate of decline.

Vayne.8563:

Gibson.4036:

Not sure how many people are aware, but dyes were originally intended to be unlocked across the entire account. Kristen Perry, who was responsible for designing the dye system, blogged about it in late 2010.

Then, in 2012, a post announced that ArenaNet had changed their mind, and were going to make them unlocked per character. The reasoning given was that they wanted dye unlocks to feel like a part of individual character progression. Oddly enough, this was not posted by Kristen Perry or another game designer. It was posted by Crystin Cox, the “monetization manager”, known for her previous work in developing Maplestory’s cash shop.

Ah the short memories of people.

Actually the ENTIRE dye system changed. So you’d get dye seeds and you’ve had to grow them in the old system, but you could only grow one per day, unless you put money into buying plant food from the cash shop. That was FAR FAR greedier than the system they have now.

The whole system changed for the better, not the worse. If the price of me of having dyes not account bound means I don’t have to buy plant food for real money to get more than a single dye a day, I’d say it was a good trade off.

Otherwise you’d have to wait 365 days to get 365 different dyes, assuming every single dye you opened was unique (which wasn’t going to happen). Basically the old way, you’d either have to spend real money, or it would take you years to get all the dyes unlocked.

I don’t need 365 different dyes, I need 3 or 4 dyes. The new system is far greedier than the old for normal players.

Yes, GW2 is very P2W oriented. It is no different than all the other Korean Grinders out there, sans a few key things like WvW.

Whether people like it or not, spending RL money in the in game cash shop gives you huge bonuses, which is the definition of P2W. The only way it wouldn’t be P2W is if the amount of time to farm something in game was proportionate to your IRL wages being able to buy you the same thing for the same amount of time. It’s a hard concept for most to understand, but any game that promotes the use of cash to get ahead of other players is most definitely P2W.

It’s not going to stop me from playing though, as other posters have mentioned the 5% stat increase isn’t enough to make the difference and push me away from the game, but at the same time it’s frustrating to know that if I really wanted to I could spend my RL money and bypass 75% of the game.

Ceallach.8740:

If someone can’t make it to an event before everyone else completes it – due to something the people able to get there bought in the gem store… you don’t see the problem ? Map chat is already filled with people who take champ farming and such very seriously – do we need a way for “serious farmers” to make the game unplayable to new players ? Or for it to be something people require for dungeon runs so that players can get places in-between combat faster ? There are many situations where this would provide a distinct “advantage” and cause other players to get the short end of the stick – which is what “P2W” is.

At least try to be constructive instead of loling in chatspeak – I gave you that respect instead of just trash-talking your idea.

Edit : And I’d also like to say that I’m more than willing to change my mind – I would just need to see more logical implementation or arguments that address the issues that come to mind when considering this.

Here ya go. Gold > Gems > Speed Boost. Since everyone says there is no such thing as a grind or P2W items in this game because everything can be bought with in game currency, I’ll throw this right back at them

It’s a logical and profitable suggestion that would make Anet money.