I tell people if they have 2300~ power, 50%~ crit chance and 100%~ crit damage, (this is about average for a balanced build thief) they need their from stealth attacks to do 50% of their total damage to their target while using hidden killer for it to beat executioner.
You call it average I call it weak… My thief has a 70% base crit chance, with + 12% while behind a foe and >90% health
Give me a banner and my crit chance is about 90%… If there is a warrior I have 100% fury uptime so I reach 110% crit chance…. tell me… why do I need hidden killer?
@Nate: I used fraps and counted the time/ the frames of each attack
@Wish:
1) no, It takes 2.05sec use fraps and check it out
2) yeah noob thieves are using Hidden Killer, you are right. Thieves with an average crit chance of 61% are using executioner because it deals more dmg
4) You are right! There are so many boss fights in gw2 where you have to fight against two bosses without adds that die instantly when you look at them…. uhm… wait.. no…
You get revealed when Backstab ends and not when it begins^^
btw i think it’s easier if you just download fraps and hit some random mobs while recording it… even the vlc player can play videos frame per frame
Does this mean the revealed debuff actaully starts when CnD hits at 0.4s?
okay I’ll try to explain.. You go to a mob, and you are stealthed… you land a backstab and right after your debuff revealed appears.
1) Your autoattack starts -> 0.6sec for double strike + 0.55 sec for wild strike + 0.9sec for lotus strike -> you surpassed 2.05 seconds -> your revealed debuff remain 0.95 seconds
2) You start your Cloak and Dagger while you have still your revealed debuff
3) There is a little time between Lotus Strike and Cloak and Dagger where your thief will just stand and do nothing (called aftercast)
4) After that your thief will start to swing his/her dagger for Cloak and Dagger while you are still revealed
5) Your Dagger will swing about 0.4 seconds until revealed ends, right after that you dagger will hit the enemy and you stealth yourself
6) You start your backstab (we are at ~3.4 seconds now)
7) Your thief will swing his dagger for backstab and needs about 1s until it finally hits
8) You land backstab, bypassed ~4.5 seconds and have revealed debuff on you
9) chain is over
Also whats just the base damage for CnD Backstab and an auto attack chain separately?
You can calculate by your own if you want^^ dmg calculation
dmg done
952 (weapon dmg) * 2499 (power with assassin’s signet and full ascended and 30 DA) * skill coefficient from above / 2600 (average targets armor)
= 2199 with backstab
now we have the base dmg of backstab without any bonuses, but we want the max dmg….
so we add all our + X% dmg traits
Dagger Training 5% more dmg
First Strike 10% more dmg
10% more dmg against foe with condition
Executioner 10% more dmg in total
that means
2199 * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 3073 dmg
usually you want to add the vulnerability from sundering strikes and Cnd but for this test we just say you don’t use sundering strike, so your dmg increases by 3% because of CnD
= 3165
with sigil of force you add another 5% dmg and so on….
and if our attack crits you have have to look at you crit dmg that should be 1.12 -> 150% + 112% dmg -> 3165 * 2.62 = 8292 dmg
endless testing^^
I used fraps and watched my tests frame per frame so I got those animation durations. Scootabuser done the same thing and I compared his numbers with mine… they were very close (for examble my aftercast for autoattack was 1-2 frames longer -> 0.04sec difference)
For dmg calculation I created a spreadsheet and testet endless times if my calculated numbers are right.. Finally they were all very close. So I was able to calculate my average dps with/without might
It took about 4h to write down all the attacks and dmg of an arah p3 run but it was worth (for me)
sry for my bad english – I’m sitting in a lecture right now so I can’t concentrate very well^^"
We would have to know exactly how long it takes to cast CnD + Backstab (tooltips suggest 3/4 seconds in total)
Autoattack = 2.05s with .5s aftercast
CnD = .9s (but you hit right after ~ 0.4s)
Backstab = 1s
How many dagger auto attacks can we get off in 3 seconds (revealed debuff)
-> in 3s revealed you can do 1 autoattack chain and 1/2 double strike (double strike duration = 0.64s)
Damage for CnD + Backstab & dagger auto attack chain (over 3/4 seconds)
18.567 dmg unbuffed (CnD + Backstab + AA) -> without a group stacking you might with 30-30-10-0-0 and both signets IF everything crits
and 6848 with just 1 autoattack chain if everything crits
So after 12 seconds it takes 6 seconds after every CnD+Backstab to cast it again, whereas with the trait in shadow arts that number is reduced to 4 seconds after CnD (only 4 seconds of auto attacking between CnD+Backstab instead of 6).
pls don’t forget the + 10% dmg while initiative > 6 you do less dmg without infusion of shadows because this trait doesn’t trigger
I can’t look closer to the rest b/c I have no time… sry for that
I really think it depends on your playstile, 25-30-0-15-0 was a very solid build for me and I used it very long. But at the moment I really prefer to use 25-30-10-0-5 or 30-30-10-0-0.
Feline Grace is not that good. Of course you are able to dodge more often but you don’t really need it anywhere except lupicus. Since your autoattack refills your endurance + your signet of agility it’s better to put these points into shadow arts. Even if you only spend 10 points in there you have better options then in acrobatics.
Infusion of Shadows increases your dps very much and Master of Deception is great against unfused shaman in vulcanic.
and I’m especially interested if any of you have done some math on things like “when is heart seeker ever higher dps than CnD + backstab” or whether or not poison fields are worth using over just plain old cluster bomb spam.
I did^^ and scootabuser too… heartseeker does more dmg <25% hp and only if the boss dies when you are starting to use it. If you spam heartseeker and the boss is not dead when your initiative is empty it’s would have been better to use CnD^^
Ahh yeah and 10 points in SA > 10 or 15 points in trickery for your dps
How the heck did you manage that, you get a level for completing the Starter zone. and even running it down to Arah would probably get you a level or two for zone exploration.
As I sad you can skip this^^
Just join a friend in sPvP
avoiding all the waypoints & points of interrest can be difficult but I can image it’s possible
It’s terrible on EU server…. Everyone is searching for warriors , you mostly get kicked if you are thief or something else then warrior or mesmer but noone cares if you are a bad warrior or a good warrior.
I can’t understand how people can prefer a rifle + longbow warrior over a d/d thief.
Trash warrior > anything else.. I was so confused
The problem is Unload, not retaliation
Everytime I´m using P/P against the final boss in cliffside or at the first time you fight the grawl in vulcanic I die because of their reflection, unload deals about 11k dmg my thief has about 10.8k hp -> I kill myself just because I´m using the worst weapon set.
Any solutions? Don’t use P/P
That’s your problem, right there.
Most thieves are running full zerker.. I you get hit you will die anyway. But it’s a little bit strange when you can survive much better with D/D (melee) then P/P (range)
The problem is Unload, not retaliation
Everytime I´m using P/P against the final boss in cliffside or at the first time you fight the grawl in vulcanic I die because of their reflection, unload deals about 11k dmg my thief has about 10.8k hp → I kill myself just because I´m using the worst weapon set.
Any solutions? Don’t use P/P
Your DPS will be MUCH higher with 10 points in SA – I would say SA is one of the best trait lines in the entire game. Even if you only spend 10 points in there you have so many good options.
The max dps build is 30-30-10-0-0, I`m running 25-30-10-0-5 like RandomFightFan or sometimes 30-30-10.. With 25-30-0-15-0 you lose so much dps
where is the challenge? we did it with 3 ele (1 D/D + 2 D/F) 1 mesmer (S/F) cause we didn’t find a last one.
This fractal is not as difficult as many people think… actually it’s really easy if you know what your profession can do and if you have 100% reflect uptime
dont even need reflection (/deflection); smoke bomb/well of darkness serve nearly as well for blotting out groups of elem dps
- though im only frac29; not sure how much harder it gets;
Yeah it’s possible: the problem is, there are more ele at higher levels and your AoE has a cap of 5 targets. If you get hit from only 1 ele and have no condition remove or some other options to get out of the way you can be dead in no time b/c the agony hits very hard and the meteors are not very friendly as well.
Its even more difficult to down the shamans shield, while taking care of the ele with blinding.
where is the challenge? we did it with 3 ele (1 D/D + 2 D/F) 1 mesmer (S/F) cause we didn’t find a last one.
This fractal is not as difficult as many people think… actually it’s really easy if you know what your profession can do and if you have 100% reflect uptime
1) yeah correct, but your critical hit chance nearly reaches 100% at least I have about 95% with fury and banners
2) yeah that’s correct
3) normally a good team should be able to have 25 stacks of might even without a thief… 1 Mesmer 1 warrior 1 thief or 1 S/D Ele and you have them.. Thieves should not goal for it
4)why 16%?
You dont have dagger training 5%, you dont have executioner 20% (average of 10%) you dont have First Strikes (10%) so we have 25%
Sundering strikes: Vulnerability caused by this trait has been increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. It looks like ANet wants to replace thieves’ defensive utility via weakness with offensive utility via Vulnerability. This is a good trait, but Vulnerability is still pretty bad.
oO?
Why that? Vulnerability is the BEST Debuff in PvE… If we can hold around 10 stacks with CnD and Sundering strikes it’s pretty good. Now we only need to stack might with our autoattack :P
no it sucks i didn’t even have to read it. Venoms are terrible.
You are totally right, I thought exactly the same when I read it
lets state what you miss with venoms:
+10% dmg ini > 6
+ 5% with dagger
+ 7% Crit chance
+ 300 precision -> 14% crit chance
+ 30% crit dmg
+ 20% crit dmg < 50% hp -> average of 10%
======
- 21% Crit Chance
- 55% dmg
so the best case scenario is 561 × 5 which is 2800 damage total (every 45 seconds). WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPIE thats literally less than a dagger auto attack crit that has a 1/4 second cd. Were do I sign up for this awesome ability?
You sir, are totally right…. the new conditions sounds soooooo op like “You die if you move” but at the end its more like “an necro does more burning dmg”
Anyway: its just a new reason for many people to QQ in this forum
On those bosses the venom sharing and totc would be nice to have but I’d still prefer a smoke screen to stop the crazy amount of projectiles that plague fotm and signet of agility that cures a condition for everyone and refils my end.
When you say it like that it sounds like this signet only refils your endurance^^
The total endurence of your team is refilled, in 99/100 times no one will even notice that but if you have 2 thieves vs lupi it is a huge advantage cause you don’t really need 15 points in acro anymore
I agree with RandomFightFan venomshare is crap compared to other builds
Hey dear gw2ers, the sitation is like ele is the jack of all trades, no king, but strong in everything, makes ele fully viable and good as the other proffesions. if ele could do 100-120 k damage mutch more would run it and it would get insantly nerfed, and no chance that it can do 120 k. Show me a screen of you doing 120 k and il follow your toughts. but thief got better damage becuse we can do 20 k damage each 3 sec, and 30 k below 25 % hp, ele can beat thief, no doubt in that they are counter of thieves, but in damage we are still supreme over them, but their good side is that if you compare their damage to their survablity to the thief damage and survablity, if you get a together number of that, ele will be best, but if you only count damage thief will rule it defeinivlity. and if you got 100-120 k that got to be on that dungeon boss which let you do tons at him:) So im the one that burst your bubble..
Playing a thief, I have noticed that enemies with a ranged attack continue to attack you while you are stealthed. Not just finishing the attack they are on, and not just getting caught in an aoe, but continuing to attack you as if there was no stealth at all. It makes stealth nearly useless in PvE because many enemies have a ranged attack.
because of that reason I never understood why some players are telling stealth is our defense unless you have condition removal on stealth
Just physical “walls” or something like that (Mesmer: Feedback, focus skills, Guardian: Wall of Reflection, Shield, Ele: swirling winds and so on)
Players themselves, summoned adds or spirits are still able to block them.
So it’s easier with a full zerker group. You can summon your thieves, adds or whatever you want and just burst him down – when everything is on cd he should be dead
Little hint: you can summon Fire Elementals if you have enough money and use them as walls
Don’t know exactly but I think since 2 weeks… 1 Month ago anet started to make swirling winds from ele useless there, later WoR and after that smoke screen and shield of the avenger
As far as I know nothing can block his projectiles now
1. That bug is extremely annoying, I hope I’ll see a fix before the end of the world.
2. Buy asc. stuff with laurels. You don’t need ar to do 10 anyway.
You don’t need ar at all since you can dodge every attack except the Jade Maw. I got my first ar at level 30 and it worked well
@haviz: Its more about his heal, WoR, aegis and so on… Even without Toughness/Vitality he’ll pull aggro. I’m one hit as a thief (maybe with luck I have about 5% HP left) so if I don’t dodge his autoattack I’m down at lvl 48.
@Dub: ok… lets say “Does anyone ever melee him successfully without dying at lvl 48?”
Acrobatics is a different defensive doctrine than stealth-based defense. Your stealth-inducing utilities cease to be your “best utilities” when you’re relying on dodge for offense and defense instead of stealth. By leaning heavily on stealth via utilities and investing in Shadow Arts this fits more into the category of a hybridized build than something Acrobatics-based.
But a dodgeroll doesn’t hurt your enemy. + 2 initiative when entering stealth is not really defensive, it’s an offensive attribute which allows you to attack more often with Backstab.
I think Molch wanted to mention that you lose DPS with this method
Sounds like you actually have no idea how to play a thief?!?
Smokescreen is one the best support skills we have… Did you ever do grawlfractal > 40?
Shadow Refuge explain them what to do… my mates know how it works and it saved our fights many times
Signet of Agility My panic button… Its a must have in PvE if you are skilled offensively with 25-30-0-0-15 or 30-30-10-0-0 or 25-30-10-0-5
@lordbyron i’m not sure if lvl 51 is high enough for you but i stay melee with my d/d Ele when i’m s/f mesmer so yeah actually it is possible and more funny..
Lvl 1-50 is quite boring and too easy for us if we stay in range. In my opinion there is no easier fractal. Nothing can kill you if you have enough reflects and even with reflects you can kill the elementals before they can kill you if everyone is full zerker
In the 4 ele Video it just seems to be difficult because everyone run pvt…
Edit: i can’t understand why ppl cry because of this boss since ascalon is much more difficult… 10k dmg from warriors autoattack? Onehit if you get hit from a mage BEFORE the meteor even hits you? Me and my party EVERYTIME die before anything hits us – we used fraps and saw the ascalonians shot their arrows 15 frames after the dmg is killing someone. Grawl is brain akitten and easy since you can evade all attacks, instand kills from nowhere are bigger problems
try it out…I dont believe it works with bleeds/poison….once you try playing with it, you’ll see how (not) good it is….there are very few specific builds that use it, but it usually switches thief to hard mode.
ehhh it works… I usually use it when I play with pugs.. Cluster Bomb = 1500 heal, Caltrops = 500 heal/sec → 5000 heal in 10s, Choking Gas = 500 heal/sec → 1500 heal in 3s
Daggerstorm = full heal :P
I always use Signet of Malice, Shadow Refuge, Caltrops and Dagger Storm.
Chilling works just out of his shield, that means you are just able to chill him right before it appears (unless you are staff ele and able to AoE ground chill).
Crippling works in the same way, so you can’t cripple him with dagger 4 while his shield is up, but you can use caltrops as ground AoE to make him slower
I’m able to brake his shield and get a nice heal with Caltrops (500 heal per second) and Dagger Storm right after. If I had 2 healskills it would be much easier – with the Signet I have to dodge nearly every attack when there are no eles with everything else I die before I get the shield down v.v
Like i already mentioned on Youtube you should try Thieves Guild…. with Signet of Malice + Caltrops + Cluster Bombs you should have enough heal for yourself. With Smoke Screen and much luck your Thieves will not die and attack the shield.
Slowing down the shaman with grenth skill works pretty fine as well, our ele is always using this skill right before the eles spawn.
I spend many hours in this fractal and tried different methods… It is disappointing that our skills count only as one attack (Unload, Cluster Bomb, Caltrops)
But I’m sure thieves are able to solo it… anyway either I have no survivability (Haste, Critical Haste…) or not enough offense
btw: I didn’t test grenth by myself and Ice Drake Venom… I’ll try 30 points in DA and Sigil of Hydromancy to chilling him for 9sec + Cripple him
edit: with +40% Condition duration even longer
