Just wait till we get the new expansion, and they become sniper, then they wont even have to engage in CC.
Lol the notion of bunker on the damage fest that is pvp, is right down hilarious.
Wrong, achieving balance is not the objective of the patches, shifting the meta is.
What is wrong with condi being able to burst? Sure some condi application skills could be shaved a bit, just as some power damage skills could be shaved, but why should power be allowed to burst but not condi?
If condi can dps and burst, then why does physical damage exist?
Balance is not the point of The patches, Shaking the meta is.
Balance patch was fine. Please stop fearmongering.
This has nothing to do with fear mongering, this is actually a pretty common development technique, used among others by Blizzard and Wizards of the Coast.
Im putting forward that balance is not a goal, the string of utter kitten ups that are the balance patches are intentionally design to be so, the idea being that in a twisted way, the class X that you liked is intentionally rendered unplayable, as a result you are forced to look for something else to play and that keeps the illusion of the game being “fresh”.
In other words throwing a wrench into the meta, just for the sake of shaking it up, balance is not a consideration.
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[quote=6592682;J
So, from what you are saying, does everyone with HoT use the elite specialization over the others?
[/quote]
Yes
Endure Pain: it is the same ratio of active up-time vs cooldown. But wait… you get more vigor if traited… isn’t it? (one boon more to strip… yay)
What kittening game are you playing?, for you to get the same up time you have to trigger it twice, in the kittening damage galore that is this game, fights dont last 30seconds.
Nop, balance swings, classes going from ok to unplayable. And the constant doubling down on failed design has pretty much killed pvp population.
Oh, and dont even bother with out HOT, elite classes flat out destroy core classes. It was one of the few expansion in games i have played that introduced more options and killed variety.
Yup, warrior is pretty much unplayable AGAIN.
Have been saying that damage is out of control for a while now.
This latest patch has not done anything to bring things back to reasonable levels, if anything, quite the oposite.
sits and eats his popcorn
Interesting arguments guys, however the classes are not fully balanced, nor will they ever be fully balanced and people just need to accept that. Once you do, GW2 will be slightly more enjoyable. Everyone knows that teef if strong 1v1 and berserker is strong 1v1, 2v1 and 3v1. Difference is that with passives that both classes take, teefs will drop faster to condis and are way more prone to being 1 shotted by the other class. There is a reason why new players are suggested to start with warrior more often than not.
inb4: I play teef yes, but I also play druid/engi and berserker (hammer ftw). Some classes are more…shall we say…“noob friendly” than others. The main point is that classes will never be balanced enough that everyone will be happy. Just adapt to whatever changes, stop complaining and just play. This is a game after all.
Not perfectly balanced and unplayable are 2 different things, Anet has a well established track record of the latter one rather than the first one.
To be honest. I simply don’t see why they nerfed healing signet instead of nerfing how Berzerker could gain Adrenal health version 3x by spamming their F1 or simply nerfing ‘’Dead or alive’’ trait wich is a sustain trait for berzerker only… So core warrior got the nerf along with a patch that was suposed to be aimed at berzerker….
How many kittening core warrior did you see in PvP in the last year or so? About none…
Seems that devs have the attention span of a 2 year old…
You want best sustain and best Burst? And be one of the most Passive classes sure that’s interesting gameplay…
Dont find it interesting, play something else.
And best burst? please, not my kittening fault you cant find the stunt brake skill button.
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Sustain is what makes Warrior a Warrior, we do not want to tap dance on the keyboard, nor button mash healing skills.
We have already been down this road and warrior was UNPLAYABLE, this was less than kittening 14 months ago.
Also condi builds are across the board worse than power builds for every class except mesmers, and mesmers aren’t even upper-meta. You’re literally trying to get underpowered builds nerfed.
Dont know what game you are playing dude, most certainly NOT this pvp.
Dont know if reverting is the solution, but right now condition damage is just stupid.
They can either control the fight or do stupid amounts of damage, they cant do both.
I think they arent unlocked if you dont have HOT. Either that or theres a tab that sells non hot stat trinkets. Theres something about that on wiki i think
Have hot, there is only 1 tab.
Ok. Ill buy all three just to check which stats you are talking about.
All the HOT stats.
Dont be worried, pvp cant be harmed.
Its already dead.
Just traded 2 of this and to my surprise they are utterly useless.
We need the missing Stats Combinations, the earring has them, there is no reason this shouldn’t have them.
- the current split of active players between pvp, wvw and pve are very shifted towards pve.
This is irrelevant
Not if you are a business which has limited ressources and has to split ressources in a way to accomodate the most amount of players. You saying something is irrelevant to you, does not make it so nor does it change economic reality.
I am a software developer my self. The resources required to overhaul the pvp system are irrelevant to a company the size of Anet. We are talking 2 programmers tops. 1 for the gear system, one for the environment/maps. Hell 1 person alone can pull it off.
I don’t know what kind of hobby software developer you are, but to even suggest this… simply No.
What you are talking about is the pure coding side (which also would be vastly more complex in a system as big as GW2 but let’s keep that aside). The pure balance aspects, bug testing, actual concept stage, etc. is vastly more complex and would take way more staff. We are not talking some hobby priject with 1-2k lines of code.
You have no idea what you are talking about. PvP needs 2 kinds of overhaul.
1- Overall slow down of fights. Through a better gear system.
2- Different Modes.
2- Involves new maps, map creation tools are among the first things that are developed along with the game engine, its how their artists actually use it. So the cost of this overhaul is pretty much on the game mode testing. Given they can simply push the maps as unranked games for player testing and feed back, the cost of this “overhaul” is pretty negligible.
1- Involves creating a new UI and new Items, not modifying the underlying systems. And as a professional on the matter, I am going to come straight out and say that if implementing a new UI requires editing in excess of 5k lines of code, which as you said, is toy software, then their problems go well beyond the pvp game mode.
A balance team is already in place, they are only required to play the same game with different stats.
This is all perfectly implementable with a team of 1 or 2 developers/programmers. It the political decisions and internal approval procedures that are the issue, NOT the technical/economic aspect of it.
We are talking a multi million dollar company hiring 2 interns still in or straight out of college to do 90% of the job and once it is tested and green lit the only thing left is polishing (prettier forms, nicer looking maps).
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- MMOs make bad competative games. Even the goliath WoW pulls insignificant pvp numbers compared to the total playerbase
This is false, WoW went as far as to charge to participate on its tournaments.
Yes and when you have a playerbase of 12 million, having 200-300k interested in entering your tournament will do something like that. Doesn’t change that going by numbers of viewers it’s tiny.
I agree, thou that does not deny the fact that, if done right, pvp can be profitable.
- the current split of active players between pvp, wvw and pve are very shifted towards pve.
This is irrelevant
Not if you are a business which has limited ressources and has to split ressources in a way to accomodate the most amount of players. You saying something is irrelevant to you, does not make it so nor does it change economic reality.
I am a software developer my self. The resources required to overhaul the pvp system are irrelevant to a company the size of Anet. We are talking 2 programmers tops. 1 for the gear system, one for the environment/maps. Hell 1 person alone can pull it off.
- the last time spvp was put at the center of developement and focus the pve side of the game suffered and with it the game overall
This never happened, pvp was never the focus of development.
Sure it was, shortly before HoT was released and the new trait lines came out. The entire focus was on making spvp work. Arenanet even came out saying that their marketing department was in favor of catoring to the pvp crowd to get more players to play.
Took about 3-6 months, near 0 pvp activity and a lot of pve moaning for them to implement split skills and rework class balance around the raids they designed.
That is not pvp focused development. The trait line change was due to the incoming op specs and the changes to among other things conditions. The subsequent tweaking was done to correct development mistakes. That in the software industry is “post deployment support” it has nothing to do with developing pvp, any more than Automotive Recalls have anything to do with adding new features to vehicles with faulty components.
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The game needs to slow down. Reality is, THIS IS NOT MOBA, the player base does not want a game where you from 100% to 0% in 3 seconds flat.
That and class balance is and always has been, atrocious due to the lack of commitment on class build archetypes.
i would trade some balance for a new beginning with slower combat
For the sake of PVE i dont see Anet changing how classes are suposed to behave, if result on pvp creep builds Anet says those are metas, maybe and maybe not they get changed in future.
Slowing down means reduce performance in pve, since they cannot fully separate classes from the gamemodes, they barelly can change skills.Anet needs to change their game ideals if they want the game fixed, still i think Anet made the game really to work arround powercreep vs powercreep.. sadly.
I really hope that they noticed what they are achiving here is not a good model for a game nor interesting wich means tweak what is wrong atm and then growth within that baseline.
Still…. its Anet and gw2 that we are talkign about, past changes prove their tendencies….
That is completely false. Skill effects are based on a base value + coefficient. The coefficient is applied to stats. Stats are a function of gear, pvp amulets in its current incarnation.
So the only thing that needs an overhaul is the pvp gear system, which is completely isolated from PvE.
The game needs to slow down. Reality is, THIS IS NOT MOBA, the player base does not want a game where you from 100% to 0% in 3 seconds flat.
That and class balance is and always has been, atrocious due to the lack of commitment on class build archetypes.
i would trade some balance for a new beginning with slower combat
I’m not opposed to smaller swings in health (e.g. you don’t go from 100% to 0% in just a few seconds, but you also can’t heal from 1% to 100% in a few seconds either). But it would have to be very carefully done, otherwise bunkers or even bruiser builds would be immortal, and that’s not fun either.
Also, if ‘slower combat’ means less mobility and dodging, then I also disagree. The action-oriented combat is one of the best features of GW2 IMO, and the primary reason that I play it over other MMOs.
However, I think it could be valuable to reduce burst and sustained damage if burst and sustained healing were also reduced.
Action RPGs need to feel like tug of wars games, and not like pistols at dawn where you say go and 1 lucky skill puts you in the ground.
The game needs to slow down. Reality is, THIS IS NOT MOBA, the player base does not want a game where you from 100% to 0% in 3 seconds flat.
That and class balance is and always has been, atrocious due to the lack of commitment on class build archetypes.
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Spvp had it’s glory moments and the best the game could pull was 5k twitch viewers with massive promotions ingame and out side of game.
This 5k viewers is not success by any standard.
- MMOs make bad competative games. Even the goliath WoW pulls insignificant pvp numbers compared to the total playerbase
This is false, WoW went as far as to charge to participate on its tournaments.
- the current split of active players between pvp, wvw and pve are very shifted towards pve.
This is irrelevant
- the last time spvp was put at the center of developement and focus the pve side of the game suffered and with it the game overall
This never happened, pvp was never the focus of development.
The problem with banners is not that they buff 5 ppl instead of 10, might stacking also affects only 5 people, the problem with banners is their aoe radious, which this did nothing to address.
Rifle is fine. It’s a Rifle.. it’s main utility is DPS.
Then it has no utility because its dps is atrociously low.
Ever going to address this?, it deals like 0 dps and brings next to 0 utility.
Ah, yes, because everyone can use the busted op cowardly class, then its not op. That makes a lot of sense…
Quick tip, may be people dont like the kitten play stile…
confused, you want faster award tracks, complain that people die too fast, then its everything is telegraphed, then you only play for the rewards. In short you don’t pvp because you enjoy pvp. Never do a thing you don’t enjoy if you can avoid it, – especially in a game lol.
I enjoy the game, pvp is PART of it, when i PVE it does not set me back on my PVP, every minute i spend on pvp is minutes i take away from my PVE grind.
Not doing the grind actively sets me back on accessing PVE content, not doing the PVP grind, sets me back on a title, may be.
Nowhere, thats where its going. That is the product of not having a pvp balance team.
The pvp team, can not touch the skill mechanics, thus there is little hope they can ever achieve anything.
Pvpers do not need asc gear and on top of that the previous system gave you almost full set in a day for free. Calm your kittens and do it the way the rest of the game does it if you want asc gear.
There are no such thing as pvpers, there are players that pvp, and every minute you spend on pvp is a minute that sets you back on the grind.
I play PvP because I think it’s neat. I couldn’t even tell you what the rewards were for last season except that I got a set of armor out of it for a character I don’t play.
You dont matter, the player count spike does.
PvP rewards are the only thing that made it worth it last season, congratulations on kittening it up.
I have to agree with the op, this game is grindy as kitten, and pvp is essentially despised by the grand majority of the player base, the only thing that made last season as popular as it was, was its rewards…
it takes 8.5 hours of game-play to complete a single track, it need to either be speed up or changed.
People seem to not want to accept that there build is being countered in WvW. Thieves by design are Alpha Predators in WvW. It is where they shine, capturing camps, cutting off small groups, harassing enemies. ASSASSINS if you will ROAMING is what the thief is best at…
Best and Over Powered are not the same concept. Over Powered is by default the Best. The Best needs not be Over Powered.
Very very strong, I simply had to run because after slapped 50% of my health off me I was left with several conditions still to deal with.
Wow was he unstoppable.
I think that’s why a lot of people in this thread are irritated. Thieves can simply disengage if they meet their hard counter. The same is not true for other professions outside of warriors, mesmers and to a lesser extent engineers & rangers.
If necros get put in a tough situation, they’re SoL.~ Kovu
Them disengaging is not the issue, all classes have a measure of disengage, the problem is the absurd on demand damage with impunity and the UNLIMITED ON DEMAND DISENGAGES.
Like its been said above, it takes no skill to play a thief and there is no fighting a thief.
Risk reward, implies risk, unlimited on demand disengages, remove Risk from the equation.
Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.
Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.
None of those classes has anywhere near the ability to strike with impunity from stealth and retreat to stealth again on demand.
There is simply no fighting thieves on wvw.
Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.
Ever going to address it? going to be broken forever?
Apolo isnt worth it. remember, this is the guy who made the ‘All amulets need +500 armor AT LEAST’ thread because he was dying so fast. his advice is about as useful as my flatmate Winston’s, & he’s a Jamaican man in his 70s who doesn’t own a computer.
And that is completely in line with what i am saying here, but no you are right, lets plow ahead and keep doing what clearly has not made pvp popular, that will show them!!!!.
2- A change is gameplay design is by no means all inclusive, its simply a change in how the game is played. Since HOT pvp has become ever increasingly more frenetic and spiky, while pve tends to be more methodical and technically based (generally speaking). PvP popularity has greatly decreased while pve has increased. So you can either double down on your current design and say kitten it let be what it can, or you shift the design, but something has to give.
It’s easy to fix: nerf elite specs.
PvP got worse because elite specs added more stuff total, were over-tuned to make up for playstyle shortfalls, and added a lot of “get out of jail free” cards. PvE got better because the creature and encounter mechanics became more challenging. You can nerf elite specs without affecting PvE.
As i said above, pvp was never popular to begin with, sure it might have been marginally better than now, before HOT, but the idea to REALLY make it popular.
You DO know that this is a team game right? We had separate queues in the past. We had 5v5 for 5-man teams ONLY. We had solo queue for individuals ONLY. No mixed queues. No duos, no trios, etc. Matches were generally competitive and even.
The problem is that pvp population has taken such a dip that i honestly suspect that 5v5 queues are simply no longer sustainable. Solo q are a trivial change programming wise and have been requested for years, they gave it to just this season, why?.
This is not up for debate.
You posted it here, thus yes it is.
I’ve always advocated for separate queues: Team Queue(5v5) and Solo Queue(1-man) The reason is that duos and mixed queues simply do. not. work. They just don’t. Only 5v5 and solo queue works.
Agree but see above.
there is no gw2 competitive scene, they need to go back to the drawing board and acknowledge that what they have done so far has been one kitten up after another.
…aaand I’m saying that’s because casuals are more important then vets. that might work for pve but not here.
They have not catered to casuals, the ever increasing spiky and frenetic combat does not lend it self well to casual gameplay.
GW2 pvp has never been casual friendly, a mildly experienced player will crush a casual with out much effort, that has always been true in GW2 and still is and incidentally has always been exacerbated through gross class imbalance.
AND you are missing the bigger picture, there HAS NEVER BEEN a gw2 competitive scene, pvp has been a big flop since launch, i know i played all the way from gw1 nightfall to now.
That is why the direction should have shifted long ago, it is no that now pvp is unpopular and the devs struggle with long q times, this has always been the case.
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I understand where youre coming from, but making something all inclusive completely undermines its value. for a games competitive scene that spells disaster. take any fps for example, or even chess. the rules are simple, the quest to the top is not. if the top is reachable to anyone, then no one will reach for it because its so easy and thus has no value.
1- there is no gw2 competitive scene, they need to go back to the drawing board and acknowledge that what they have done so far has been one kitten up after another.
i would like to know what is the average amount of pvp queued players at any given time, i would be seriously surprised if it ever reached 1k world wide, its the only way to explain long waiting times, it means you cant put 10 people together with roughly the same skill lvl. That is how dire the pvp situation is.
2- A change is gameplay design is by no means all inclusive, its simply a change in how the game is played. Since HOT pvp has become ever increasingly more frenetic and spiky, while pve tends to be more methodical and technically based (generally speaking). PvP popularity has greatly decreased while pve has increased. So you can either double down on your current design and say kitten it let be what it can, or you shift the design, but something has to give.
Shifting design is of course easier said than done, mainly because the trait system is atrociously bad, and it was even worst before HOT.
Anet need to define archetypes and class intrinsically qualities that need to be trait line independent and then specialize trait lines for weapons and skill types.
For instance lets take warrior. What are things that characterize warriors game play.
Passive Regen
Used to be fast weapon Swapping
Cleaning conditions tied to Adrenal expenditure.
These are all things that you simply have to have to have a functioning warrior build, they should NOT be tied to trait lines, you should always have them.
Now lets take a look a sword traits, there is one is STRENGTH, many in ARMS that benefit indirectly through Fury upkeep, and then you Have some in TACTICS, through PS.
WHY?, the better design would be to have them all concentrated on a single line.
The worst offender is the Scrapper, where giros are essentially moving turrets.
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