team game with no team ladder. seems legit
Well this was supposed to be a pvp focused game, and its the pve what keeps it alive, so yeah, that does sound legit to me as well.
I think its high time they aborted this failed experiment and moved back to something closer to GW1.
The other issue is casting time and stand still skills. On this game, with this much kiting, with this much evasion and CC, melee classes simply cant have either.
Hmm? All melee weapons but maces and the necromancers dagger have built in leaps/charges/teleports. Obviously there are things that impede the practicality of it, but the Necromancer with a dagger would still have a teleport from Death Shroud.
What makes HS HS is not the gap closer, its the lack of CD genius.
That goes without saying, but obvious a lack of CD isn’t a reality for the CD professions.
Lowest leap is what Mighty Blow?
Just saying it should be more like HS, really only puts gap closing in the context since generally one would think you’re not talking about throwing 0-4s leaps on professions.
Actually yes, just 1 decent one for every melee oriented weapon on melee classes, take warrior again, broken as hell as it is you can put 3 gap close on a single skill combinations 2 on GS one on bulls charge, they still have a hard time sticking in close quarters.
These classes(melee classes) would be better served if all melee weapons had a proper gap closer in a say 3-4 seconds CD it would free up 2 skill slots and make them marginally more viable. Thou i dont know if that would be enough.
Its a problem with the system really, if you can do everything on the move and on top of that you can throw out a kitten load of CC slows and so on, And on the other hand you have a class that moves at the same speed but needs to stay close quarters to deliver, there is a clear advantage to one of those. That is why casters must remain stationary to cast in wow. I mean its the same reason gun took over swords and axes in real life even thou taking an axe to the face is just as deadly.
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Hmm? All melee weapons but maces and the necromancers dagger have built in leaps/charges/teleports. Obviously there are things that impede the practicality of it, but the Necromancer with a dagger would still have a teleport from Death Shroud.
What makes HS HS is not the gap closer, its the lack of CD genius.
Actually i dont consider the thief to be neither hard nor overpower, they compensate squishines with high burst damage and invisibility, they are not that hard to pay either. Something like HS is what every melee class in this game should have (with its damage adjusted to compensate for the class tankiness).
Due to the lack of proper support, more game modes and the kitten advantage of kiting vs melee, SPVP is almost DEAD you simply can not separate the Qs if you expect to play more than 1 game per afternoon.
Keeping a bad mechanic in the game because of population is not a good design. PvP devs have one responsibility: PvP. They only need to concern themselves with facilitating a healthy environment for PvP competition (through balance, infrastructure, etc). Population is another issue for a different department of Anet to handle.
How healthy do you consider it would be, to wait in line 45 minutes for a pvp mach?.
This is a Guild Wars 2 Elementalist, not a Dungeons & Dragons Wizard.
Given the massive failure of this games pvp, specially considering its a sequel to GW1, i would not be too proud of that. Doing something different, makes it different, not good.
I think the real problem is Elementalist & Warrior are the only professions that have viable and semi-viable full time melee options, respectively.
Warrior viable melee builds? i take it you dont pvp much?
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Guild wars is a lore.
Because this game is massive letdown from GW1 in every single aspect except pve?
someone has tinted glasses syndrome.
You are right, graphics being several generations later, are much better as well, i stand corrected…
The best duelist professions in the game are not melee. That says a lot.
D/D elementalist
Elementalist is not a melee class, try again.
How is D/D not melee?
Because he is a caster and he should not be able to stand toe to toe with a warrior. Thou certainly this is my pov. The massive popularity of pvp clearly shows that breaking up the conventional class roles is what people want, oh wait…
Because this game is massive letdown from GW1 in every single aspect except pve?
The best duelist professions in the game are not melee. That says a lot.
D/D elementalist
Elementalist is not a melee class, try again.
You can call it “thread” when you can show me that you need 10 eles to kill a warrior.
Lol eles complaining about another class survivability, oh the irony.
I think what keeps most people playing pvp tho is the game combat is actually fun.
I think what keeps most people playing is nostalgia towards GW1 seriously.
Almost every profession has access to swiftness, gap-closers, crowd control, cripple, chill, or immobilize, not to mention blinks. This is not a big issue.
Kiting have access to more
If they kite away from you off a point you win the point, if they stay on point the points are small enough that you can easily attack them, with the exception of foefire mid. Of course If its a team fight an they don’t need to stay on point, work with you team to coordinate c/c and if stab is up use immobilizes.
./thread
Dead players do not hold points.
Seriously any plans to get melee fixed?
Alot of the reason that PvP is empty is the lack of venues for casual players to feel any sense of competition or progress.
PvP is empty because people did not like the weapons switching mechanic, the lack of support and the massive advantage of kiting vs melee. This game tried to break away with conventional model and it failed, plain and simple. And it also happens to be a massive let down for GW1 players, to make matters worst.
PvE is the only thing keeping this game alive, and it is a disgrace. GW1 now has a bigger pvp base than GW2, that should tell them something.
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This is why solo queue must be separated from 5-man team queue. Of course pugs will “naturally” be separated from premades on average due to rating, but whenever a particular pug player performs exceptionally well and carries for multiple games, he will get knocked back down by a premade, so his potential MMR is capped. It’s a glass ceiling.
Due to the lack of proper support, more game modes and the kitten advantage of kiting vs melee, SPVP is almost DEAD you simply can not separate the Qs if you expect to play more than 1 game per afternoon.
And I mean soon, not eventually.
Apolo, you’re still missing the point.
Your #1 skill isn’t just some arbitrary attack – it’s tied in to your mainhand weapon type as well as damage. It doesn’t make any lick of sense to make a weapon skill that is clearly derived from your mainhand weapon, swing both your weapons.
Oh, i do get your point, i think it is rather irrelevant, which is not the same as not understand it. Take Axe+Sword.
Visualy:
Axe+Sword
1- Autoattack
2- Axe Whirlwind attack
3- Throw an axe
4- Throw a sword
5- “Guard your self with the sword”
Axe+Axe
First 3 the same
4- A Cross slash with both weapons simultaneously
5- A persistent longer and more exaggerated Whirlwind strike.
How exactly does it matter if the auto attack swings the sword and the axe intermittently?. If the skill description is an issue, just remove the axe reference from there, for all that matters.
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I am sorry but as i said before, the default auto attack skill, is not that meaningful as to need its own unique attack animation. The animation for the off hand skills are meaningful and visually distinctive enough as to not be confused with a regular swing. Having the Character swing his right arm for 5 minutes straight like a robot reeks of low budget free to play.
Granted there is no auto attack, how ever, it is not meaningful which weapon is swinging, when swinging more than one time per second. I realize it is intentional, but it is also too visible and the contribution to the game play is marginal.
Please Make character alternate between swinging both weapons, when wealding 2 melee weapons. It looks more akin to a low budget free to play, than a triple A title like this, constant robotic movement characters execute when wielding 2 weapons. Keep same skills mechanics but for the love of god, please alternate say swing once with the axe, 2 with the sword (off weapon) even if the skill executed when auto attacking is always the same.
- Armor/Toughness in this game is inconsequential.
- Eles should not have melee builds period.I’m curious as to why you believe that Eles shouldn’t have melee.
You are right, with as little class differentiation as this game has, Eles might as well wear heavy armor as well…
- Armor/Toughness in this game is inconsequential.
- Eles should not have melee builds period.
Regardless of what ANet “could” or “should” do, I generally agree with the fact that there are a few things that they could implement that would make the PvP in the game so much more appealing. Right now all we have is what amounts to the old RA from GW1 and Zerg vs. Zerg.
In my personal opinion, (and only mine) I think that GvG would be better than arenas.
Cheers
I dont really think you can implement something like that, with out the diversity GW1 had to offer. There is only so many times zerging in larger (wvw) or smaller (5v5) is interesting. The only thing that changes is the scale not the strategy.
And you can not implement Dueling or Arenas, simply because of how grossly kiting and ranged classes overshadow melee classes.I am not saying Dueling or “Arena” fighting… I am saying Guild vs Guild. 1v1 wouldn’t work for exactly the reson you cite. GvG would be more of a concerted effort by a guild to have a well-rounded team capable of battling another well-rounded team from another guild.
Right now, the only reason to belong to a guild is to socialize and gain influence for the rewards… Guild hopping (or collecting) is a hobby for some. There is no reason to be “loyal” to guilds like there use to be in GW1. Guild Pride is almost non-existant in most cases (note: Not all guilds are included in this group.)
In my opinion (and I can only speak for MY opinion) I think GvG would be a boon, not a detriment.
The one thing i think could be implemented, is having something like guild ranks and premade pvp tournaments with only guild based teams. How ever you still have to remember GW2 is simply not deep enough to encourage comp strategy, team play is simply reduced to communication and execution, not composition or strategy. This is due to the fact that a single class in GW1 (with out counting the secondary one) had access to about the same amount of skill all classes combined have in GW2.
why use a warrior here and not a ranger?
Sad attempt to make warriors seem relevant?.
sweet you got the idea, now just make some of these game modes now before your playerbase drops out
on top of payload, attack/defend, capture the flag, king of the hill, odd ball, arena, and MOBA
Before? at this point is to try and bring them back, if i counted 25 people max over the weekend on the mist i think i would be exaggerating.
1) You can obviously have it without a healer.
I beg to disagree and use your game as an example, we barely have a functional, essentially dead, point control game with out healers. Do you really consider a game mode which only focus is to kill the other team would be any more viable than this?.
I understand you have to use the company line and the whole no trin thing. I suggest its time to reconsider this before this game is completely dead. As i said before, i appreciate the franchise, bought the GW1 games, but at the end of the day, you have to sell the games gamers want to buy, and i honestly doubt GW2 would work as a PvE exclusive, i would even dare say the population decrease in the short less than 8 months after lunch is a rather grim indicative of this. That unless you have given up on micro transactions and expansions, that being the case, ignore my previous comment and do as you please.
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@PowerBottom
None of those builds is more optimal, than simply bringing more ranged kiting firepower srry. Kiting ability in this game is simply too much for melee to have a real impact with out dedicated healers/support.
Unless you start giving heartseeker strikes to every melee weapon out there for warriors and guardians.
You cant have death match with out Healer Classes, Kiting and Ranged classes would overshadow Melee classes even more than they do now (If that is even possible).
Why do people keep saying this crap?
Deathmatch is where people are supposed to die, not be healed for 30 minutes while playing a war of attrition. If anything not having healers is an advantage (Not that long matches wouldn’t happen, I’m sure they would occasionally if you get two teams who are very good at playing defensively).
The other issue (Melee/Ranged) is simply a balance issue, has nothing to do with the type of mode.
So ye keep saying and so pvp keeps sucking.
You cant have death match with out Healer Classes, Kiting and Ranged classes would overshadow Melee classes even more than they do now (If that is even possible).
I disgree about needing a healer class. There have been games with a deathmatch mode where all damage dealing comps were viable even when healers were available. Furthermore, you have “support” roles in this game that can fill that role, its just that they can’t sustain a team indefinitely. This makes the matches more fast paced and frankly better.
As far as the Ranged v. Melee debate is concerned… it is one of the many balance issues at the moment, but it is not the same discussion as whether or not Deathmatch would be a good addition to the game.
More PvP styles would be good. Particularly if you didn’t know what kind of match you were going into when queing for tournaments, because it would create more variety in the teams.
To the victor go the spoils, if your enemy team is dead then what ever the objective might be you can freely claim it for your self. That is where healers come in, they make it time consuming and of set some builds that clearly aim for the former. A bunker is cute, but he can simply get ignored until he is alone, and then all his Tankyness wont make an ounce of difference.
And again lets call a spade a spade, for all their talk, Ranged damage is here, debuffers are here, assassins are here, tanks and melee (as dreadful as they are) are here. The only thing lacking is Healers/Support, and it clearly aint working. I mean GW1 has about if not a higher pvp population than GW2, that is right down pathetic. WoW was not the glory of pvp when it launched, but they did dropped several failed models until they nailed it.
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I think it would actually be more useful if Anet acknowledged the dreadful state of pvp in general and why it failed so hard. Then made a compromise and moved from there. I dont think this kind of reactions are of much use. In my opinion they need to scrap the current model (as far as pvp is concerned) and move back to the GW1 model with the standard trinity. Just because it is a different idea, it does not mean it is a good idea, and i think the spvp numbers speak for them selves about this.
Err… no. Whilst I agree that they do need to go back to the GW1 structure of SPvP, they DEFINITELY DONT need the standard trinity.
So says you, which you are entitled to think what you like. Spvp numbers 8months after lunch says otherwise me thinks. In fact, the only real thing missing from trin is healers, me sees.
Do you actually have numbers to compare or are you pulling it out of you kitten Also you conveniently forgot to mention that when guild wars 1 came out, the wasn’t that many options. The point being you cannot compared to entirely different environments, I mean you can if you want to, but it doesn’t make it valid.
Oh, me would not dare soil GW1 memory by comparing to this. Me however sees damage, CC and tanks, no viable melee classes and me thinks the only thing me doesnt see is healers.
Me thinks New skills should be added to exiting weapons, make weapons have as many skills as support skills classes have, then Anet makes real healer classes. yes yes yes.
That me thinks would make pvp interesting again, and not the barren wasteland that the mist is. And would fill up now empty half of the pvp servers, yes yes yes.
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Introduce Multiple Skills for the same weapon, meaning introduce say the same amount of the support skills, but for each class on each weapon. Make player choose, take the opportunity to bring healer back (god knows you need it) and we can start moving towards something closer to what GW1 was.
I think it would actually be more useful if Anet acknowledged the dreadful state of pvp in general and why it failed so hard. Then made a compromise and moved from there. I dont think this kind of reactions are of much use. In my opinion they need to scrap the current model (as far as pvp is concerned) and move back to the GW1 model with the standard trinity. Just because it is a different idea, it does not mean it is a good idea, and i think the spvp numbers speak for them selves about this.
Err… no. Whilst I agree that they do need to go back to the GW1 structure of SPvP, they DEFINITELY DONT need the standard trinity.
So says you, which you are entitled to think what you like. Spvp numbers 8months after lunch says otherwise me thinks. In fact, the only real thing missing from trin is healers, me sees.
You cant have death match with out Healer Classes, Kiting and Ranged classes would overshadow Melee classes even more than they do now (If that is even possible).
I think it would actually be more useful if Anet acknowledged the dreadful state of pvp in general and why it failed so hard. Then made a compromise and moved from there. I dont think this kind of reactions are of much use. In my opinion they need to scrap the current model (as far as pvp is concerned) and move back to the GW1 model with the standard trinity. Just because it is a different idea, it does not mean it is a good idea, and i think the spvp numbers speak for them selves about this.
Then again, the lower the population the lower the costs of maintaining the servers (which are low to begin with any way), thus Anet may simply not care about the player base numbers. I dont think they are actually counting on the expac sales as they did for GW1 (otherwise they are in for a reality check). Don’t get me wrong, i am not criticizing them, this is a business, they did good money out of GW2 and PvE is decent for what it cost, They might just end up calling it a day.
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Honestly think that is simply not feasible, if 90% of the spvp player base, play the same 3 classes over and over again aka Thief, Mesmer, Ele, consider how long you would be waiting in line to get a spot on a 5 different classes team.
It would be the final nail in the coffin of spvp.
I realize the people hosting this thing only sPvP, but that makes up such a small part of the game that so few people actually play.
In a GW title this is so true and so sad a little bit of me died inside…
Historically, GW2 promised to become an esport, and don’t want to release multiple PvP types because this could divide the community (and subtract from viewer interest and such)
Looking back now, it’s apparent Gw2 will not be an esport. An alternate theory begins to emerge, gw2PvP lacks depth because arena net didn’t spend any real money developing it, and never will. They dedicated just enough money to scam gw1 pPvP fans into buying their game and otherwise don’t care. That is why.
I think That “scam” is a bit of a strong word for it. But I do understand were you come from. I still think the game could be salvaged, if they looked into balance and moved closer to the true and tested trinity. God knows the only thing actually missing from it is a proper healer class/build/weapon, other than that, everything is already there, thus the balance issues.
Tank? – Can spec a warrior to have about 3000 power, 60% crit, 30k hp, 500hp Regen per sec, cant get into melee for the life of me, but if that does not scream tank i dont know what does. I bet the guardian can do something similar.
Caster/Kiter? – Mesmers, Rogues, Eles, Engi, Necros
Dps – Thief, Ranger, Melee sucks, but Thief can close in for the kill with HS
The only thing missing is a true Healer/support, hence its like trying to dive a 3 wheel car.
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its so hilarious, back in gw1 there was all the stuff we missing for gw2.
still the time for gw2 will eventually arrive, im a belieber.
GW1 pvp players bought GW2 because GW1 pvp was a great game (pve too).
I’m sure that anet will fix all these problems but maybe its too late.
Strictly speaking, it is in their power to do so, all the mechs from the original are here, used to a lesser extent in some cases.
its so hilarious, back in gw1 there was all the stuff we missing for gw2.
still the time for gw2 will eventually arrive, im a belieber.
Well i am not paying an expansion pack for it. Just saying. I bought this as a loyal customer from GW1, but my Good will has essentially been expended on that.
One thing that is missing from GW2 is actual focus on the TEAM and not the individual, but this goes to both PVE and PVP, this game is made for solo players or randoms joining together overcoming challenges, even in PVP. There is absolutely nothing achievable by a team, even your rating is your own, it’s not your team’s rating (Which would make pairings more balanced if it was based on a team)
GW2, simply does not have the class diversity required for teamwork and strategy to pay of. Sure, coordination pays off, but that is it.
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Regardless of what ANet “could” or “should” do, I generally agree with the fact that there are a few things that they could implement that would make the PvP in the game so much more appealing. Right now all we have is what amounts to the old RA from GW1 and Zerg vs. Zerg.
In my personal opinion, (and only mine) I think that GvG would be better than arenas.
Cheers
I dont really think you can implement something like that, with out the diversity GW1 had to offer. There is only so many times zerging in larger (wvw) or smaller (5v5) is interesting. The only thing that changes is the scale not the strategy.
And you can not implement Dueling or Arenas, simply because of how grossly kiting and ranged classes overshadow melee classes.
Been Playing the game some more, since I was told repeatedly, that The Thiefs are a good melee class, i thought i would give it a go and see if it was true.
Turns out it was true, how ever, WHY was it true?, because of a little skill called HeartSeeker. This one skill, includes everything that every other proper melee class lacks, it is a No CD, High Damage, Gap Closer, all rolled into 1. Now in the game of kiting of course a class with a skill like this can work and even then, it is still far more optimal to kite and shot from the distance and then close in for the kill. Does this mean it should be nerfed? Certainly not, something like this with toned down damage to compensate for their durability should be included for every weapon for Guardians and Warriors (with the exception of the Guardian weapon you should set aside for the proper support role).
6th Problem: Stacking effects Mechanic.
Other things I found that are clunky and bothersome are Staking Boons and Conditions. I understand why you need to Stack conditions from a design point of view, with out proper support and the far reduced diversity in conditions and hexes from GW1, you needed a way to make Condition builds viable, thus condition stacking. But was there really a need to stack them 25 high?, why not something more reasonable like 5, it all depends on how well you can spam it any way. This game suffers from this in some many different lvls, you went for the multiple less significant, shorter CD/Duration route on everything, rather than longer significant ones, as was generally speaking done on GW1 (and most other games for that matter). This is again exacerbated by Problem 3. Also, and this is entirely cosmetically, but why is it that every Dot in this game has its damage described as total over the total time?. Its a DOT, what we are interested for comparison is how hard it hits over a consistent amount of time (typically a second) not how much damage does total, specially not if we will be stacking it or trying to extend its duration.
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what if melee damage is buffed?
The only way for melee to be significant is for its damage to be rise significantly, and general CC ability to kite, be toned down significantly. As long as classes can spam multiple slows, daze, stun, and aoe versions of it, melee will never be significant.
So true, something needs to be done.
Yeah backstab needs to do more damage.
Thank you for confirming what i said. Thiefs are only viable because of Heartseeker, which is a High Damage, No CD, Gap Closer Strike. Essentially everything i said the true melee classes lack.
There is only so many kiting classes that MMO can take and in this one in particular, they all do the same. Until a pure melee and dangerous Build is possible and we get a true healer spec/weapon, spvp will remain dead. Its not been a year yet and you can see several permanently empty pvp servers. For a pvp oriented game, thats saying a lot.
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Just remember if you get the refund, but then decided to come back you’ll have to start all over with a new account.
Its unlikely I will be coming back, yet have not completely made up my mind yet. I thank you for your time and the information.
There is a time window for refunds. I believe its 90 days.
That would be nice, i could give it a couple patches chance to change my mind.
I think there are plenty of viable builds for each class. The problem is people either don’t experiment or there is 1-2 that make the other viable builds look bad. Trust me this happens in all games. It very hard to create several viable builds without 1 or 2 being that much more viable.
No, trust me. There isn’t.
Go play gw1 (if you’ve never done so), and you’ll understand the lack of diversity of viable builds in this game.
I concur.
It is blatantly obvious the OP did not play GW1.
what if melee damage is buffed?
The only way for melee to be significant is for its damage to be rise significantly, and general CC ability to kite, be toned down significantly. As long as classes can spam multiple slows, daze, stun, and aoe versions of it, melee will never be significant.
TESO’s PvP has been uncovered as a complete failure already.
Oh right, I totally forgot that there are people who can see into the future :/
Do you seriously think a game based on years of single player campaign mode on a console is going to have world class pvp?
I dont know, it PVE the only thing keep GW2 alive, and GW1 was entirely PVP focused, so, one could argue, stranger things have happened.
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