But can balance be achieved if the game is fundamentally design flawed?. Its no big secret this games pvp failed miserably.
You have classes where 2/3ds of its signature skills are useless in 2/3rds of the game.
Classes static over time ground target skills in a game designed around fluid moving combat.
Gross advantage of ranged over melee in 2 out of the 3 game modes of the game.
The game is fundamentally design flawed it goes beyond simple balancing and its essentially dead pvp and wvw show it very much.
I don’t play/care about pvp
Guardians:
Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)
Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.
but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp
If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…
im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp
Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.
Actually, designing the game balance around the average player is terrible in terms of making it competitive. Games between randoms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because players simply aren’t aware of the counters and often times they are decided simply due to whoever plays less poorly.
Games should be designed at the skill cap. Other players can rise to it. But if the game is broken then no amount of rising will fix it. And how can you expect a game to have a high skill cap when you’re balancing it relative to the floor?
5 Randoms in a pug != 5 Average Joes In a Premade Team.
Relative to best, they might as well be. And besides, there’s a whole host of high level play in between.
The games that balance and design around the top 1% of premade teams with under 20ms ping connections, invariably fail because that does not represent the bast majority of their player base. Kind of like this one did on lunch when pvp crashed and burned.
There is a reason world of Warcraft has a bigger pvp crowd, being a pve game and being this a pvp king successor.
Oh, we’re talking about Blizzard now? You know what one of their top pvp games is? Starcraft 2. They focus balance exclusively on the stats of the top leagues and tournaments. I’m sure that game didn’t sell well at all. Or its predecessor, lol. Let’s just say they don’t take in account what platinum league players say very much.
Or just maybe, just maybe, Blizzard’s a bigger name?
Of course, Blizzard’s UI making makes it far more accessible to casual players, which Arenanet needs to learn.
You wanna know what is even bigger than SC2, LoL, they constantly make changed based on feedback from average joe, and what they perceive to be the general feeling of the player base.
Should high skill lvl players be consulted, certainly, but they should be consulted in regards to fine tuning balance, not on general game design. Does a Skill need an extra second CD? sure go ask the top 1%, having a class that has both its signature skills being fixed ground targeting on a game based on fluid dynamic combat, that’s quite beyond the high skill lvl players, regardless of whether they can make it work or not.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
I don’t play/care about pvp
Guardians:
Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)
Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.
but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp
If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…
im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp
Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.
Actually, designing the game balance around the average player is terrible in terms of making it competitive. Games between randoms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because players simply aren’t aware of the counters and often times they are decided simply due to whoever plays less poorly.
Games should be designed at the skill cap. Other players can rise to it. But if the game is broken then no amount of rising will fix it. And how can you expect a game to have a high skill cap when you’re balancing it relative to the floor?
5 Randoms in a pug != 5 Average Joes In a Premade Team.
The games that balance and design around the top 1% of premade teams with under 20ms ping connections, invariably fail because that does not represent the bast majority of their player base. Kind of like this one did on lunch when pvp crashed and burned.
There is a reason world of Warcraft has a bigger pvp crowd, being a pve game and being this a pvp king successor.
I don’t play/care about pvp
Guardians:
Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)
Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.
but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp
If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…
im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp
Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.
I don’t play/care about pvp
Guardians:
Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)
Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.
but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp
If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…
It is ridiculous that people give Anet a pass by blaming NCSoft, if your car broke down and Chevi would tell you, we would like to fix it, but GM wont let us. Would you give them a pass?.
NCsoft is Anet problem, not our.
I really don’t think NCsoft has anything to do with this.
To be honest i dont give a "$·%$%!·!$ about NCSoft. Anet is the developer of this game, dealing with NCsoft is Anets problem not mine.
Solo Q is dead? try SPvP. This game killed its predecessor pvp crowd.
Now? been a away for a while?.
Been away for a while, after the patch has it become any more viable in WvW?.
PvP sure you can win.
WvW if you are up against a ranged class and a competent player, no, no chance in hell you can win, you will get kited to death all day long.
Why the guardian needs a blink I’ll never understand
Because Anets concept of a paladin is a self healing blinking rogue.
1) AoE Stability
Everyone has access to stability, redundancy does not mean much in a self sufficient oriented environment.
3) Point Controls
Other classes do this better due to the existence of poison.
4) Hands down best ~~Sustained~~ Grp Condi Removal in game
Same problem as 1
5) Best ~~ Sustained~~ Group Healing in game (Shout Warrior does better “Burst Healing” – and by better I mean “easier”, because a guardian will output more burst if spec’d to, it’s just much much harder to pull off)
Same problem as 1, exacerbated by the fact that devs do not want healer specs.
6) Combo Finishers Trump Warrior’s hands down. (Hammer / GS -> Blast (4s), Whirl (10s), Leap 12s)
which would be awesome if we had anything other light fields to trigger, plus hammer sucs all around, if it did not have the finisher nobody would play it.
1 & 4) Clearly you have reading issues: Sustained Group Based.
3) Poison does not equal Point Control.
5) I have no issues healing my group and making it my sole focus. Clearly you need my build and playstle. Feel free to browse around, you might learn a few things.
6) Combo Fields are there to ~enhance~ gameplay. Nuff said.
It’s evident you play GW2 – 1v1. Not Guild Wars.
Move along, nothing to see here.
1 and 4- clearly you have reading issues, redundant, see i can do that too
3- no, but guardian does point control through self healing, which gets neutered by poison.
5- me neither but you are doing it wrong, remember the whole “no trinity”
6- good ones sure they are, light, not so much.
Better check your game, guild wars are from guild wars 1 not guild wars 2
I seriously doubt you play tpvp for coming up with those responses. When you try to make a point, stick the the game mode you play, not the one you know nothing about, or you’ll simply spread misinformations. No, hotjoin does not count.
pf, Mesmer can easily heal allies at a rate of 2.8k every 5 seconds while still sustaining some pressure through dps and conditions and with out needing you to step in the small circle, but i am the one spreading miss information…
1) AoE Stability
Everyone has access to stability, redundancy does not mean much in a self sufficient oriented environment.
3) Point Controls
Other classes do this better due to the existence of poison.
4) Hands down best ~~Sustained~~ Grp Condi Removal in game
Same problem as 1
5) Best ~~ Sustained~~ Group Healing in game (Shout Warrior does better “Burst Healing” – and by better I mean “easier”, because a guardian will output more burst if spec’d to, it’s just much much harder to pull off)
Same problem as 1, exacerbated by the fact that devs do not want healer specs.
6) Combo Finishers Trump Warrior’s hands down. (Hammer / GS -> Blast (4s), Whirl (10s), Leap 12s)
which would be awesome if we had anything other light fields to trigger, plus hammer sucs all around, if it did not have the finisher nobody would play it.
1 & 4) Clearly you have reading issues: Sustained Group Based.
3) Poison does not equal Point Control.
5) I have no issues healing my group and making it my sole focus. Clearly you need my build and playstle. Feel free to browse around, you might learn a few things.
6) Combo Fields are there to ~enhance~ gameplay. Nuff said.
It’s evident you play GW2 – 1v1. Not Guild Wars.
Move along, nothing to see here.
1 and 4- clearly you have reading issues, redundant, see i can do that too
3- no, but guardian does point control through self healing, which gets neutered by poison.
5- me neither but you are doing it wrong, remember the whole “no trinity”
6- good ones sure they are, light, not so much.
Better check your game, guild wars are from guild wars 1 not guild wars 2
A rose by any name is still a rose…
1) AoE Stability
Everyone has access to stability, redundancy does not mean much in a self sufficient oriented environment.
3) Point Controls
Other classes do this better due to the existence of poison.
4) Hands down best ~~Sustained~~ Grp Condi Removal in game
Same problem as 1
5) Best ~~ Sustained~~ Group Healing in game (Shout Warrior does better “Burst Healing” – and by better I mean “easier”, because a guardian will output more burst if spec’d to, it’s just much much harder to pull off)
Same problem as 1, exacerbated by the fact that devs do not want healer specs.
6) Combo Finishers Trump Warrior’s hands down. (Hammer / GS -> Blast (4s), Whirl (10s), Leap 12s)
[/quote]
which would be awesome if we had anything other light fields to trigger, plus hammer sucs all around, if it did not have the finisher nobody would play it.
Wanted to make exactly the same thread.
Guardian feels the most linear and boring class in GW2.
It’s only good in a team, even then support, and lets be honest, isn’t that great.I can’t roam efficiently in WvW with all the cheese builds.
I can’t tank as good as other professions in sPvP.
I can’t deal as much damage as the other professions without going full zerk and sacrificing all defense.Warrior feels superior in almost every possible way.
+1000
When the rogue is just as tough as the paladin, you know something somewhere went awfully wrong.
Aka, a slow thief
lol said the same thing
I think “active defense” on the guardian is greatly over rated. All our blinds have a rather lengthy casting time/animation, specially so the GS one.
Aegis is miserably scarce, you can pull about 4 per minute, and if you actually do, it goes down the hill from there decreasing the aegis pm.
it is also not helped by the fact anything and everything triggers both Aegis and Blinds, like aoe for instance or a regular auto attack, so while an interrupt directly disrupts the skill aimed at you, aegis/blinds must in most cases be preemptively cast is poped by circumstantial/environmental damage.
It also does not get into account how unreliable it is when facing summons, which all the classes other than warriors use, or how it also does not work against channeled skills like Thiefs pistol 3 (Repeater) or Engis Flamethrower (just to name a type of skill not that this one in particular is any good).
(edited by Apolo.5942)
You know you have like 0 sustain right?.
10k hp thief-guardian aint hard to play, people just do not like 10k hp paladins.
Cant you upload it anywhere but twitch, twitchs streaming is good awful.
“Unscathed Contender” While under the effects of protection you deal +8% more damage.
A full dps guard has relatively little access to protection though, and you probably wouldn’t want to squander it as a pre-cast for burst.
A guardian using Hammer for instance has pretty much permanent protection.
Lol this is the most kittened comment ever.
This is true only if
a- You hit with the slowest most telegraphed attack in the game.
and
b- Your opponent is kittened enough to fight you in the small static circle you create.
Problem is, even you had 25% move speed on your traits, where would you actually put it? you already need 6 to have access to sustain and 3 more to fix health or so to fix health and get healing dodges..
Problem is many aspects of the guardian are artificially, even stupidly dare i say, kitten.
Take Altruistic healing, there is no reason why you should be healed X times the number of allies you give boons to, instead of a grater fixed amount. Why? because most your boons already have a set max number of targets, thus you could simply be healed that amount instead of having unreliable healing, which why most people dont run it.
So overall guardian is just bad unless group play is involved? If that’s the case I’m re-rolling lol
Not necessarily but unless you want to play a 10k hp rogue wannabe with out stealthing, yes pretty much.
Problem is many aspects of the guardian are artificially, even stupidly dare i say, kitten.
Take Altruistic healing, there is no reason why you should be healed X times the number of allies you give boons to, instead of a grater fixed amount. Why? because most your boons already have a set max number of targets, thus you could simply be healed that amount instead of having unreliable healing, which why most people dont run it.
If its a pug, you need bring nothing but damage and making sure you do not go down. I personally like meditations as the best build all around.
My advice, stick with the necro.
Actually it needs a whole lot more AI, it needs less button mashing and more passive stuff to slow down the fights.
If spirit weapons were immune to attacks for their duration, and there were two new buttons I could press to make them spread out, follow, or attack target, then I might get excited.
I do look forward to any improvements to guardian of course, and I’m in no way feeling kitten before I see the actual updates.They’re probably not going to make them immune; that’s going to lead to a lot of complaining regardless if it’s good or not.
They do need to make them much sturdier as in “not melt in 0.1 seconds to incidental damage” so a big buff is needed.
Athey need a HUGE buff, or at least a differentiation, pvp “incidental damage” is not the same as PVE “incidental damage”.
?
I’m guessing you only pvp?There’s only 1 meditation skill with a low cooldown, and that is smite condition.
Twentish second cooldown is acceptable if the skill is powerfull enough.
36 seconds cd on a 2k heal, teleport, burn and fury is ok
16 seconds cd on a 2k heal, clean condition, fury and aoe nuke is ok
30 seconds cd on 5s stability and retaliation is not.
A plate armor skinned (not getting the actual damage reduction) rogue, with out the stealthing.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
Problem is, in wvw has access to the same stats, so while you can fix the class problems other classes can simply stack on its strengths, thus you end up right back where you started.
Sure you can fix you lack of crit and healing through zealot or what ever but that is not going to do you much good when others can get the same stats added to their already better ones.
No melee class should start at 10k, i thought they would have learned this when kiting killed pvp back a year ago, seems Anet is a slow learner.
1_ Shouts, never use them, too little utility too long cooldown, only use them on specific parts in pve, aka stability for marsh fractals thats it.
2_ Meditations, this is how all skills in this game should be, big noticible impact, low cooldown, exelent.
3_ Consecrations, never use them same problem as 1
If you can only realistically blow the skill 1nce per fight, it needs a complete overhaul, big blow up are what elite skills are for.
In all honestly not very optimistic.
-Regarding Spirit weapons, bow being targeted was a no brainier, but that is not the main problem with weapons, the problem with weapons is that they do not keep up with you, need a bazillion traits to run and get destroyed by essentially every aoe and boss in the game even when not aiming for them. Reworking their abilities? sure be my guest but that is not what they really need, they need not to be touched by aoe and have their move speed increased.
-Dont see them addressing the guardians meager 10k hp pool. Necros have almost twice as much hp and offensive sustain.
-No comment on GS trait balance/additions, the main used weapon has virtually no trait we can access after fixing our hp pool and getting healing medis.
-Also no changes to symbols which might as well not exist in WvW.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
Have to agree and have been saying this for a while, stats are to restrictive on guardian.
-You have to spend 6 points in Honor to overcome the ridiculous 10k hp pool and get dodge heals.
-Regarding WvW you have to use a staff for swiftness which leaves you 1 weapon either sword or GS and staff is not really a ranged weapon so you always end up in an awkward situation where you either need to hit some one on a wall or down from one and the staff does not have the range for it. You also have a lack of sustain unless you go meditations and then your sustain vs your opponents kiting is ludicrously low.
-Symbols might as well not exists in WvW and they are a KEY component of your sustain.
-No +25% move speed trait means travelers is mandatory further restricting your stats and builds.
-Save meditations, traits synergies is all over the place, you have 2handed cd on one lane and GS sword damage and pitiful sustain in another one. You need 3 lanes for a pseudo decent Weapons build. Symbols interfere with force of will.
1- It does not work while roaming, so its out.
2- I hate builds that are only marginal viable thanks to food bonuses.
It also has been looking like they’re making some changes based directly on reasonable forum posts, so we might see some QoL changes like RoW while moving, Spirit Weapon tweaks, Mace and Shield changes, etc.
Based on?seenany preview=?
Boost basic HP pool to 13-15k, tired of my paladin feeling like a rogue.
Melee guardian is miles behind melee warrior and need to catch up. HP would not matter while playing bunk or support, you stand because of your sustain and would go down just the same to perma poison as you go down now, only take 3 or 4 seconds longer.
That or give force of will another bonus so that it is more than just the stat fix the class needs.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
I have ran guild missions ranging from 20 to 70 people since the megaserver. Most of the time, the majority ended up on the same flow. So, the taxi-ing is minimum.
Yes, still, anet need to find a solution to minimize the inconvenience. Especially when not all new players understand what it means by megaserver. In fact, many new players don’t even know pve is megaserver.
Makes sense since it’s not explained in game and you still choose a server at the start, leading folks to assume it all works the same as any other game with a similar set up.
Why should they even care, i am in the same maps in the same server with my guildies, i expect to be able to play together, is not my place nor my interest to fix GW2 for Anet or circumvent their servers hardware limitations, which is all this really is, merging servers to cover for evaporating population.
yeah, you have to tetris everyone that wants to participate in, not a real or practical for that matter, solution for large guilds.
Trying to get 20+ people on the same overflow while also rushing to do the missions is a pain in the kitten .
I would actually like more toned down fantasy weapons, take the royal ascalonian grate sword. It is not realistic, its fantastic (as in fantasy) but its toned down. We need more of this, and less flashy over the top anime like weapons. Nothing wrong with anime, but the aesthetics of this game clash with it too much.
Happened to me a couple of times, thou cant say for certain it is a server issue or connection issue.
Regardless of what and how it does it, 14k hp is a non starter for me.
You must not have gone toe to toe w some seriously good players if you haven’t been in a fight that lasted longer than 25s 1v1
Seriously, half the classes out there do the roaming better than the guardian, scratch that, all of them. No disengage = no roaming.
The guardian profession can be a lot of things, and a “paladin” is most certainly one of those things, but a paladin is only one of the things it can be. Maybe one of the archetypes a guardian was intended to represent wasn’t “ninja guardian” or whatever, but don’t merely call a guardian a paladin. It comes off as extremely simple-minded to me.
And i would be ok with it, if making a proper paladin (thus playing the class propperly) would not incredibly kitten your pvp viability.
Seriously, is this entire forum just endlessly recycling the same questions and discussions forever?
Shield #4 isn’t awesome (it’s cooldown is waaaaaay too long and it’s damage too low), but I think it’s a good way to represent a “shield bash” sort of attack that still fits the Guardian. Also, moving that move to the Focus would really screw the Focus over as a viable option.
Actually i think the best way to represent a shield bash, is i dont know, with a an actual shield bash?.
This game is filled to brim with attempts to originality that end up being lackluster, both in terms of mechanics and aesthetics. Paladins with mediocre hp pool, paladins that resemble rogues more than they do warriors, clothies that wield grate swords as laser canons, a complete reversal of what people expect the shield to do and the focus to do, armor classes that are essentially meaningless, The kitteniest aesthetically rendition for healing in the form of rolling. So on and so forth…
(edited by Apolo.5942)
A guardian can be a lot of things. A paladin is just what you want it to be.
Sorry no, you heal, you wear plate, you are a paladin, you want to make it original then make it original and DIFFERENT, dont borrow the class troupes and expect to be ok to pull a 180 on it.
To make a proper guardian/paladin with 18k+ health we sacrifice too much stat wise, we are under powered.
I rolled the class to play a warrior healer hybrid, not rogue healer.
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