Spec preview http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=36349
In short, given the current lacking state of Warrior in pvp. There is no way players could possibly get an objective or balanced view of the Berserker in a BWE.
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwxALLH7nY
And this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3mUpxxbM1Y
Won’t be fixed … Why not put the same mechanic of longbow 3 on Virtue of justice?
LoL, sad thing, this has been mentioned on virtualy every feedback thread i have read.
Unwanted, Unneeded, PowerCreep (once virtues get fixed).
Make it a channeled beam ala mesmer greatsword.
Problem solved.
You win the internet, that in fact would make this god awful weapon actualy look cool.
Pve does not need balance, pve is there to grind the gold to upgrade your account and make your ascended gear and or buy skins.
Why would i want to make that already grindy as hell process harder?.
To be honest, unless torch brings some seriously powerful gap closers which i would be able to combine with an axe, i am realy not interested. We already have conditions with warrior. They are not bad, they are simply not interesting to warrior players. When you roll a warrior you want a phisical tough and hard hitting class, conditions do not qualify.
I dint think we need gap closers.lol
We do if we ever expect our builds not to be GS+Something.
If the greatsword is going to be our best dps weapon and also our best cleaving weapon, what niche does that leave for dagger?
Comparable single target damage, flexibility with of hand, incredible sustain. Those seem pretty significant pvp niches to me.
We can wait and see, but i said it first, GS 1v1 viabillity goes against their current design philosofy, thus a liablility in 99% of the pvp encounters.
I dont see how it would be a liability in 99% of pvp encounters.
Because it compaired to Dagger:
-Less damage
-Less LF
-No sustain vs very high sustain.
-Less flexible. All the off hands offer good things, comparable or better than GSs 4 and 5.But yeah, in those situations where you can consistentl and reliably hit multiple targets, GS will be better. It just does not happen often in pvp.
Only point #3 and #4 are true though #4 would be more true if the other off hands besides warhorn didnt suck so much. Also where do you pvp? There are loads of times where you hit multiple targets.
Cleaving some one going for the ress to equate damage output, sucks if you dont have the damage to put them in that situation to begin with.
A GS actually would have a better chance of downing someone than a dagger because of these changes. Also are you assuming the few situations where you cleave more than one person is restricted to someone ressig an ally?
If you are not fighting a Golem on the pvp lobby, yes i most certainly am.
We can wait and see, but i said it first, GS 1v1 viabillity goes against their current design philosofy, thus a liablility in 99% of the pvp encounters.
I dont see how it would be a liability in 99% of pvp encounters.
Because it compaired to Dagger:
-Less damage
-Less LF
-No sustain vs very high sustain.
-Less flexible. All the off hands offer good things, comparable or better than GSs 4 and 5.But yeah, in those situations where you can consistentl and reliably hit multiple targets, GS will be better. It just does not happen often in pvp.
Only point #3 and #4 are true though #4 would be more true if the other off hands besides warhorn didnt suck so much. Also where do you pvp? There are loads of times where you hit multiple targets.
Cleaving some one going for the ress to equate damage output, sucks if you dont have the damage to put them in that situation to begin with.
We can wait and see, but i said it first, GS 1v1 viabillity goes against their current design philosofy, thus a liablility in 99% of the pvp encounters.
I dont see how it would be a liability in 99% of pvp encounters.
Because it compaired to Dagger:
-Less damage
-Less LF
-No sustain vs very high sustain.
-Less flexible. All the off hands offer good things, comparable or better than GSs 4 and 5.
But yeah, in those situations where you can consistentl and reliably hit multiple targets, GS will be better. It just does not happen often in pvp.
We can wait and see, but i said it first, GS 1v1 viabillity goes against their current design philosofy, thus a liablility in 99% of the pvp encounters.
Also i dont know why you are still bringing up the scaling against 3+ topic. We are already past that. As Robert admitted that it wasnt the best idea to balance the damage around it in his original post.
No he didnt, that extra damage is to account for the times you will miss in pvp, they still mean it to be sub par if you keep hitting with it.
You brought up how they understand this. Clearly we dissagree here, in particular because this game has a track record of your environment defining the weapons and skills. When they are meant to cleave, they suck for single target and they are never used in pvp. Aka Guardian Hammer, Aka Altruistic healing vs meditations, aka reaper shouts in pvp vs pve, so on and so forth.
This is headed in exactly the same situation, GS will be viable in an environment where you can consistently cleave multiple targets aka pve and be a liability everywhere else.
@Apolo your forgetting the base duration changes to all the chill reapers have. Most of them got increased beyond what you are quoting in your posts. Just letting you know.
The numbers are there for show, the idea is that given comparable single target damage, it is the added utility what should define what you want to use. Of course the numbers should be rebalanced, but the idea is that you should compare:
Comparable single target DPS.
Dagger:
-Extra life force
-Healing
-Ranged CC.
-3 combinations of 4 and 5 skills.
+++++++++++++vs
GS:
-Chill.
-Some Cleave
-Weakness applicatio and burst LF.
-Blind
-Interrupt.
Instead of:
Dagger:
-Extra life force
-Healing
-Ranged CC.
-3 combinations of 4 and 5 skills.
-Best single target dps
-Little to none aoe DPS
++++++++++++++++vs
GS:
-Chill.
-Some Cleave
-Weakness applicatio and burst LF.
-Blind
-Interrupt.
-Bad Single Target DPS
-Good AOE pve damage.
The first balance idea lets your play style preference dictate what you want.
The second lets the environment dictate what you should use.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
You are going to get dissapointed, look at the Chill condition. Other than the Auto Chain, which only provides 1.3 thus you will get 1 hit at best every very likelly upwards of 4s. Everything else is on either 30s timer, 120s timer or requires you to switch weapons, thus loosing the AA.
In the bacum it honestly sounds terrible, in a world with condition cleansing and dodging it sounds down right unusable.
In their mind, GS has to be worst than dagger in a 1v1 situation, they only uped it, because it was even worst than they actually intended.
If GS were stronger than dagger against a single target and was also better against multiple targets, why would anyone use dagger?
You are looking at it the wrong way. Dagger auto attack should be better than greatsword. But greatsword should provide better burst and other tools. Then you can have a dagger + greatsword rotation.
Not nesesarily, their chain should be on par, their utility should be different.
Assuming Untraited and Equal DPS.
Dagger AA chain: Gives 8% life.
GS AA Chain: Hits 1 additional target, applies 1.33s Chill, now it will generate 5%LF.
Dagger 2: Deals damage, ranged, heals 3700hp.
GS 2: Whirl finisher, burst damage. Interrupts Chill chain and LF generation, which given the slower attack speed is more significant.
Dagger 3: Ranged Gap Closer
GS 3: Apply weakness, life force generation, damage is inconsecuential.
Dagger 4 and 5 allows combinations with other weapons.
So essentially if you are looking for sustain and utility you go with dagger, if you are looking for added burst you go with GS, but it comes down to preference, not to the fact that dagger will 99% of the time in pvp deal more damage and have added utility than GS.
If the AA chain is comparable, then the ratios on the other skills can be adjusted so that is your preference what defines what you wield.
Instead if succesfully hitting 1 target vs hitting 3+ is going to be the balancing factor, then there is not going to be a ratio at which GS is comparable 1v1 to a dagger. There are virtually no situations in pvp where you can consistently hit 3+ being melee.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
To be honest i just dont think that there is enough Chill in the reaper or Necro in general for that matter to make any real use of Chilling Force(CF).
There are multiple things that limit that trait.
-We have virtually no chill application. Chilling Scythe does not allow for permanent application and that is not factoring in a 3s attack chain prone to be dodged interrupted and so on.
- CF has an internal 1s cd, coupled with a 1s swing after nimations. In average you will get 1 pip of might out of a 3s attack chain, some times 2, you are better off simply running signets.
-1% LF and 139 healing here and there when you manage to actually hit a chilled target is next to irrelevant, even worst they are crossed thus dont fit well toghether.
For Chill to be any viable on this weapon it should BASE cover the full attack chain and go above it when traited.
Im am not being hostile i am pointing out how bad it is to implement an already proven failed philosofy on this new design.
Yes they uped the numbers, but the reasoning behind it stayed the same. If they could guarantee you would hit with every swing, like a ranged weapon, they would have not uped the numbers regardless of it remaining sub par.
In their mind, GS has to be worst than dagger in a 1v1 situation, they only uped it, because it was even worst than they actually intended.
What needs to change is the balancing philosofy behind it and the numbers will follow suit, otherwise it will either fall by the wayside or be an eternal catch up game.
In case the devs have not noticed, we want the GS to be a viable weapon in SPvP and WvW.
I did notice the thread regarding the feedback from the beta weekend and i do think they are moving generaly speaking in the right direction but this Phrase troubles me:
“The original intent here was to make GS feel like more of an AoE weapon while dagger felt like more of a single target weapon. We tuned the damage ratios accordingly so that greatsword would have higher dps vs 3 or more targets as we didn’t want to devalue dagger as a melee weapon.”
Just NO. There is virtually no situation where you are hitting 3 players simultaneously and consistently in SPvP and WvW. If this is what is going to take for the GS to be viable, then there is little hope for it. You already see this with Altruistic Healing for sustain vs Monks Focus, there is virtually no environment where there is really a choice as to what use for sustain, either one is always more optimal than the other. And given this is balanced around hitting 3 targets, we can clearly see where that is headed.
I think it is very important that we clearly and state that we want to actually use this weapo in the other 2/3rds of the game and for that it needs to be viable in a 1v1 scenario.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
The original intent here was to make GS feel like more of an AoE weapon while dagger felt like more of a single target weapon. We tuned the damage ratios accordingly so that greatsword would have higher dps vs 3 or more targets as we didn’t want to devalue dagger as a melee weapon.
This approach of stat ratio balancing is wrong and we have already seen it fail on other things. It does not promote build diversity it instead restricts it by making one option extremely more optimal in a given environment versus another one.
Examples:
Guardian Shouts vs Meditations.
Guardian Hammer vs Great sword.
This will end up with GS being viable in pve and NOWHERE else.
Stat ratios being dps healing or what ever have you have to be on par and the skills utility has to define gameplay and thus style choice.
Given Equal Singe target dps. Dagger offers Life force generation, sustain and soft CC. GS offers some cleave, gap closer/interrupt. What you choose depends on how you like to play. Not on the fact that Dagger will be better (through multipliers and stat ratios) everywhere but while cleaving pve mobs in a corner.
Dagger is our dps weapon, period. In fact, with greatsword, I would support going back to no cleave on it in exchange for higher dps, whether more direct damage or a damaging condition.
Greatsword, I hoped, would have its range and attack angles increased to make it easier to land in PvP but the weapon is designed more for PvE, anyway.
Edit: just reading the post on Dulfy, now. Lots of great changes to greatsword!
care to link?
To be honest, unless torch brings some seriously powerful gap closers which i would be able to combine with an axe, i am realy not interested. We already have conditions with warrior. They are not bad, they are simply not interesting to warrior players. When you roll a warrior you want a phisical tough and hard hitting class, conditions do not qualify.
The lack of balance realy showed on the beta weekend, all the profesion that were added utility things that complemented their standard build were ok. All the classes that added active offensive things like the guardian bow, necro GS and the entire revenant were for the most part sub par.
Is this because of design flaws or straigh up imbalance affecting those numbers?.
This is replicated around other classes as well and it only serves to restrict viable builds instead of actually adding to build diversity.
This more clearly seen on medi guard vs atru guard. Altru healing gives around 70hp heal per boon given, now every aoe boon you can give has a cap of 5 targets adding a potential 350hp. Meditations on the other hand Heal around 1900.
Now given those stats its pretty cut and dry that depending on the environment you are at one is clearly supperior to the other.
What they should do instead is balance around utility rather than stats. Have heals not scale through numbers but instead hit the automatic cap if they heal some one and balance those numbers acordingly. Then the balance should come in the form of what utility skills you need, need a blink? then go medis need to support a team go shouts, and that would be regarless of the team size.
Same flawed logic is applied here. It is very likelly that with this current approach, GS will simply not be viable in pvp.
I mean, its been nearly a month since the patch, this is getting realy old realy fast
Depends, if things are to be as grind intensive as they are now (aka ascended gear) then no i am not interested in hard content, keep it fast and easy to be grinded as it is now.
WoW handles this much much better. All skill that are interrupts, are instant cast with no exceptions. All skills that are succeptible to be interrupted have a casting time of 1.5s or longer again, no exceptions.
Added to it, you have much cleaner animations, less particles and cast bars and it does normalize the fight quite a bit. I wish such things were implemented here.
Im from Latin America, ping to the server is 230. You realy do feal it, you have to be much more proactive and predictive.
I have to say i agree, this is the exact same build, you take away double feel no pain and this build is garbage.
Reality is, Warrior comes down to double FN + Decoration.
Chill is a big issue on the Reaper, it either needs to be applied on every hit or be removed entirely.
Having essentially a 3 second chanel to apply about 1,5 seconds chill is ridiculous.
I mean, people dislike and or find sub par just about evething except the Shroud.
Any chance we can get away from the god awful slow and hard hiting design that has no place in the blow you up NOW meta?.
How would you like the NEW reaper to be?.
And will still be using the same queue for solo and party pvp…
I’m not sure what you guys mean. The greatsword autoattack takes about 0.4 seconds longer than dagger autoattack and does about the same damage. But it’s also a bigger cleave, and it applies chill.
I think the idea with greatsword will always be to use it as a cleave or execute, while using dagger for targets that are above 50 percent. And Reaper’s Shroud, which seems to be better damage than both dagger and greatsword, will be used as long as you have more than 50 percent life force. That makes sense to me.
PvP is a different story, where greatsword and dagger will likely compete for a slot. But I think greatsword stands a good chance here due to the execute, although its poor life force generation might hold it back.
If the weapon and skills it brings cant stand on their own, i think this has no place as an elite spec.
Changing Shroud skills is not worth a trait line, its worth a grand master trait, that is it.
GS is abit on the slow-side and we all feel that. But a big part of the GS trash I can clearly say is a l2p issue, some ppl here on Forums expect to master the GS instantly and that aint happening. Still after 5000+hours I think Focus is hard to land and Axe is un-useble so…
GS has dmg, cleave,defence(Nightfall) and CC imho it just needs higher LF-Gen and maybe abit shorter Cast time on Gravedigger and its fine. AND PRACTICE
It doesn’t take a lot of skill for players with a brain to simply walk away while your slow terrible skills barely hit.
Thats why u have range option, either in Utlity Skill or other Weapon Set, no skill in the world can avoid getting hit forever…. and a SKILLED Necro will hit with GS
Dude its 5 buttons, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure the weapon out. May be you are the one with the slow learning curve.
Agree with all of what you said but in addition, GS needs a consistent gap closer on a 10 seconds CD. Every other Melee weapon has one but the GS and we get punished for that.
Ours has 3 times the CD of your average gap closer and unlike every other gap closer it can be dodged and negated.
Also reaper’s grasp is on far to long a CD, maybe reduce it to 15 seconds but lower the poison duration.
^ Very good suggestion.
I would rather they removed the poison alltoghether and put it at a 10 second CD, after unlike every other gap closer in the game, this one is dogeable.
Actually bunkers are a welcome addition and a break from the insta burst you down meta. which is what its really ruining the game.
I played with it a bit. It’s not bad bad, but it’s not very good to be frank.
- skill is slow and really doesn’t do too much damage.
The freezing is nice, but it’s really easy to dodge because the sword gets this IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS blue glow.
- is a major let down to me so far. I had hoped this would be nice and bursty, but frankly it isn’t. And the precast/aftercast on it is a massive hindrance. I mean, I would probably be OK with it, if it wasn’t for the 1+ second cast time PLUS ANOTHER 1 second of aftercast. It’s massive for just a single big strike. It REALLY needs a reduction on cast times (both pre and after IMO).
- Again with the MASSIVE cast time on a friggin melee ability. It just doesn’t flow well. The cone is quite long (which is good) but it’s really narrow. You can probably sidestep this once you know what to look for.
Damage wise this ability feels solid though. Good damage, 12 stacks of vuln.
- Pretty solid for what it does. Too bad again it takes forever to get this ability off. The cast time is only 1/4th of a second (great), but the effect itself takes time to spread out over the area.
The animation is one of the best in the game though. Love it.
- Not many issues with this ability. Bit of a long cooldown for our only gap closer on the weapon, but it’s ok. (Again great animation/visuals)
Frankly I think that #1 needs to just speed up slightly (only very little, you don’t want the GS to be doing more single target dps than the dagger, at best they should be equal.).
- needs some work. I feel very locked in place when I’m casting it. Especially below 50% with the low cooldown.
Also as far as the cooldown goes. I don’t really get the 80% reduction. The GS is so slow that the 1 second cooldown makes the rotation feel very clunky.
- Cast time reduction would be nice. 3/4th or 1/2 of a second would be much better. The ability has a narrow cone so should be easy enough to get out of.
All that said. Reaper Shroud is great. It’s feels extremely good, because unlike GS it doesn’t have these massive cast times, making the flow feel great.
Actually you do, the dagger defining attribute is that it builds your shroud and is defensive through 2. GS and Dagger should be on par with single target damage.
I’m not a fan of the number 5 skill in “reapers shroud”. i would rather still have tainted shackles. I like the GS not being Melee. To early to complain about the other things mentioned, i’ll wait for the release to see how everything goes with the gear and build i use. My necro’s are mainly Condi builds
The point of the Beta is exactly to provide feedback now, before release.
This is meant to group all the beta feedback for the Dragon Hunter.
First PvP impresions.
Over all the Dragon Hunter seems like a direct upgrade to the Guardian, Virtues are just plain better, And you get your % damage modifier.
The only negative would be that bow, sucks as a ranged weapon over all, the 1 skill needs to hit harder to the first target AND the projectile travel faster.
Can we differentiate between reaper and GS. From what i red you are complaining about GS and not reaper.
On that i can get behind. The only real good thing about the REAPER is its shroud. Thus much like the Guardian, if you play something building towards Shroud, then The reaper is a direct upgrade much like the DH virtues are a direct upgrade over the guardian ones.
Other than that the Reaper is VERY underwhelming.
Well, I can’t speak to PVP, but in PVE it seemed quite strong and was a lot of fun to play.
Also, what’s this about no 25% move speed boost? Signet of the Locust is a thing, right?
Not if you ever plan on using it.
Regarding pve, im certain the Reaper works in PVE, but just because literaly EVERYTHING works in PVE.
Seen a couple of streamers, everybody is bashing on the GS.
Just played the Reaper, bottom line, sword sucks.
This is meant to group all the Reaper feedback.
My initial PvP impressions.
1- Damage just isnt there.
2- Chill might as well not be there. The combination of slow attack speed and its very short duration unless you go all in, makes it really weak. Even going you still can not keep it up.
3- You get kited to death. Little to no mobility combined with high gap closer CDs and a lack of base +25% move speed makes it very easy to stay away from the reaper.
4- Build up mechanics are a non starter in the world of blow you up meta. The same happens with Hammer and guardian, the hammer is simultaneously their hardest hitting and most defensive weapon and you never see it because the build up required for it to work makes it a non starter. GS on the Reaper is the same, but hits softer, is less defensive and does not sinergize well with Shroud. You end up better served by forgoing everything the reaper brings other than shroud.
5- Grasping darkness needs a MASSIVE and i do mean MASSIVE cooldown reduction, Guardians have 2, 10s CDs gap closers and a teleport. Warriors have 2 gap closers on a single weapon AND bull charge. Necros have neither +25% move speed and no gap closer under 30s CDs. GD needs to be base 10s, its easier to dodge and harder to aim than any of the mentioned above.3- LOL warriors always had this and we never complained
Warrior has, better sustain, better armor, more gap clossers on shorter cooldowns. They are nothing like this.
This is meant to group all the Reaper feedback.
My initial PvP impressions.
1- Damage just isnt there.
2- Chill might as well not be there. The combination of slow attack speed and its very short duration unless you go all in, makes it really weak. Even going you still can not keep it up.
3- You get kited to death. Little to no mobility combined with high gap closer CDs and a lack of base +25% move speed makes it very easy to stay away from the reaper.
4- Build up mechanics are a non starter in the world of blow you up meta. The same happens with Hammer and guardian, the hammer is simultaneously their hardest hitting and most defensive weapon and you never see it because the build up required for it to work makes it a non starter. GS on the Reaper is the same, but hits softer, is less defensive and does not sinergize well with Shroud. You end up better served by forgoing everything the reaper brings other than shroud.
5- Grasping darkness needs a MASSIVE and i do mean MASSIVE cooldown reduction, Guardians have 2, 10s CDs gap closers and a teleport. Warriors have 2 gap closers on a single weapon AND bull charge. Necros have neither +25% move speed and no gap closer under 30s CDs. GD needs to be base 10s, its easier to dodge and harder to aim than any of the mentioned above.
(edited by Apolo.5942)
Healer may be, but with no tank to absorb the 1 hit kills the boss and mobs throw, its kind of pointless.
About the same. No sound issue thou.
This had already been explained, unless they actually move to dx12, which in turn they cant do unless they fix their main thread on their engine, there is not going to be any change to your FPS.
In a way they are, they are re doing the fractals.
The problem is 2 fold.
1- Balance, in short, its atrocious. Eles, Mesmers and Thiefs are out of control. People just dont like to go from 100% to 0% in a split second, they like the fight to at least last a while.
2- Rewards simply suck. And i dont mean top end top MMR or what ever have you, those should be nice, but the every day every match needs to be much better than it currently is. It is very difficult to sell pvp to some one, when it takes the same or longer than a dungeon run, it is much harder to win and even if you win your reward is a fraction of what you would have earned spending the same time doing dungeons.
We have already gone over this, there just simply isnt enough pvp population to split the queues. Why do you think they merged them in the first place? the were separate queues before.
Because there isnt one. They already mentioned this on a POI if i recall correctly.
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