In SWTOR the Trooper was a fairly sub-par PvP option.
In WAR the Black Orc didnt quite live up to their tanky-ness.
Warriors in WoW were one of the best PvP options for the majority of the games life. A Trooper Vanguard was one of the strongest classes in TOR, were you a Commando or something? Black Orcs weren’t tanky? Tell that to the Shadow Warriors who couldn’t take them down. The only class that could reliably kill them were Bright Wizards, and we all know what happened to Bright Wizards 3 months into release.
Maybe the problem here is you. Alright, so Black Orc might not be the best tank in WAR, but the other classes you played were some of the best classes in those games for PvP.
I don’t have much problem on my Warrior. I play Hammer/Axe/Mace in a hybrid tanky-dps spec.
There are a few issues with Warrior in this game. Some of the attacks obviously need a faster animation so they aren’t so easily dodged, but other than that Warriors are in a pretty good place.
I dunno if you’ve heard or not but hammer warrior is useless. Every whiner on the forum will be more than willing to regail you with their 20 years of MMO experience and pro eSport experience in GW2. You were clearly hacking in your video since this would contradict the circle of sages which live on these forums.
This was extremely clear when you killed that Ambushing thief. No one can survive a thief Ambush. GM’s die to them. You must be hacking.
/reported
Pfft. Hammer Warrior is awesome. I use Hammer/Axe/Mace personally though. Yes, I realize you were being sarcastic btw.
I have few problems with thieves when playing my Warrior. Only the really good Thieves are a challenge. Of course, I am speced a kind of hybrid Axe/Mace Hammer build. I kill many more of them than kill me. I also play a Thief, so maybe because I understand the class better also gives me an advantage.
Either way, my biggest issue at the moment is just being able to Steal while in the middle of C&D. If you couldn’t, would Backstab still be an issue?
No teleport skills should be able to do this. It even works mid stomp. I was on my Thief fighting 2 other players the other day, one being another Thief. They downed me and went to stomp and I teleported away at the last second. The other Thief just hit steal as he was about to hit and it teleported him right over and stomped me.
I also think that rally is ridiculously overpowered. It should be one rez for one stomp, not one stomp rezes everyone. Really I don’t think rally should be in the game at all, but if it is it should be 1 for 1.
It absolutely does have a place in PvP. What doesn’t have a place is the different abilities players have while in that state.
I kind of agree here. I think downed state would be better if players just sat there for a certain amount of time (10-15 seconds) with the option to release. The abilities don’t really belong.
Personally, I prefer Arathi Basin and Warsong Gulch to any of the sPvP maps and “conquest mode” we have here.
I like the design of the maps in GW2, they do so much more with the limited space.
but I much prefer the variety WoW had.
In fact: I came to GW2 expecting lots of pvp variety. Rather disapointed with what I found…
I think the maps in this game promote zergy gameplay (possibly because they are meant for 5v5). I don’t like the way they look, I don’t like that the scoring system promotes flipping nodes back and forth and doesn’t promote defense, I don’t like the auto balance feature and the fact that because of it winning means practically nothing because if it did people would be kitten when they get team switched mid game. I don’t like that you can talk to the other team either. I have heard more trash talk in this game than I have heard in any game. lol I also hate the stand on a point to flip it system because it excludes classes that need to kite or stealth and causes them to lose the node, in other games they have to flip a switch for 5-10 seconds uninterrupted, which is much more balanced for all classes imo.
Not going to bother editing this, I know its messy but I am busy. lol
Personally, I prefer Arathi Basin and Warsong Gulch to any of the sPvP maps and “conquest mode” we have here.
Weird. I used to think of warsong as hands down the worst pvp map in the game.
How could it be bad? It’s a perfect mirror with only cosmetic differences per side. It is meant for fair CTF game play. It only got bad when they tried to change it in Cata and turned it into a graveyard camp fest.
Stiv, I heard there was a “stealth nerf” to the stealth cap. It seems it went from 30 seconds to about 15 cap, or so I have heard.
one of the easiest things to do is kill a thief in his refuge.
inside = take damage
outside = get revealed
now it is a bit different, but i’m not sure if i’ll use it.
The area is pretty large. I very rarely die in a Shadow Refuge, and if I do I am stealthed while dead and a lot of times can rez myself before I am revealed. Maybe you should try hanging out near the edge of it? The only thing that causes trouble for me is people knocking me out of it. Very rarely does a Ele or Ranger AoE my Refuge, maybe because there aren’t many of them running around.
while you are at it, give the thief class a look, they can spam 10k-15k hits without even breaking stealth
to me it looks like the whole class is a giant bug on itself
These are the kind of people asking for nerfs to the Thief class. The kind that think we can go around spamming 15k damage attacks and never break stealth. lol
Seriously? People give you feedback on your misinformed post and you just shrug them off as “brainless comments and qq”. Your Thief friends have no idea what they are talking about. Dagger Storm is fine, stop throwing ranged attacks at it. Signet of Shadows is fine, we give up a utility slot if we want to use it (in half of my sPvP builds, I don’t use it and instead rely on swiftness on evade from acrobatics). If it was really that great, I would be using it in every build. I am not denying it is a nice skill, but a lot of times it is not worth losing the utility.
To OP,we are done wit the nerfs imo for a few weeks.If Dagger Storm goes,it will be in the same patch with Moa Morph :P
No need, Dagger Storm is fine. Stop trying to range it. I play P/P and don’t use Dagger Storm and even I think it is fine. If they use it right as I am using an Unload it can reflect a nasty amount of damage back at me. I am more vulnerable to this than any other build in the game, yet I don’t come here to try and get it nerfed.
So let me get this right: You finally succeeded in having “Assassin’s signet” changed ( though I like it better this way) and now you complain about the next skill?
In the end every single skill of a thief will be changed ..
Pretty much. This is what they want. They will not be satisfied until Thieves are a joke. They hate them because they have stealth, the same type of players hate them in every game.
I think it is a jealousy thing. They see stealth as an advantage, but don’t want to play Thief, so they just try to get them nerfed to uselessness instead.
Hardly does any damage on its own. Stop attacking it with ranged attacks.
So according to you and your buddies, what about Thief isn’t overpowered? Their speed they have to give up a whole utility slot for is according to you. Tell you what, I will take a 5% nerf if you move the 20% speed to a Deadly Arts Signet. lol I could use the extra utility.
It has always been useful. I would never make a build without it, personally. I don’t see why they thought it needed to be changed at all. Why didn’t they do something useful, like making body shot less worthless?
The only people who like K/D stats are people who have not played PvP/Competitive games enough to know how poisonous of a stat it is.
Quick comparison of Heroes of Newerth to DOTA2 will show you this, join random game in HoN with low KD -> people harass you, DOTA2 meanwhile does not have this issue because THEY DONT REPORT IT.
Seriously just follow what Valve does, they are smarter than pretty much everyone.
Yeah, you must be right. I didn’t play 1100 hours of TF2 since it released. I also didn’t play WoW for 7 years on and off (while they didn’t have a K:D in the base UI, you could track statistics like that with mods).
I posted again in this thread but it seems to have disappeared. I want more stats in my matches because I like to improve on my stats. For instance, when I first started playing TF2 I probably had around a 1.5 K:D and over the years I played it was able to bring that up to a 3.0. I would also like to see damage and healing done in a match. I am sick of not having access this this information.
Kimbald, low skill cap is not an imbalance imo. Although in reality, to really do well as a Thief you can’t just mash buttons with your forehead (as many would have you believe). I mean, you might be able to kill some horrible player doing that, but then again you could have done that on any class.
I did roll a thief and within 15 min of leaving the character creation screen I was owning people with pistol whip (only build I could find, even tho it got nerfed lol).
Wohoo? I did the same thing on a power/prec Mesmer, only I was doing 1v2 and 1v3.
I will tell you one thing though, these are the whiniest MMO forums I have ever been a part of. Is it because this game doesn’t have a monthly fee or what? Not looking good for the PvP community.
Although I think that the Thief, as an “assassin” type class, should have high burst but also stealth. Nerfing any of those two would ruin the concept ie. it would not be a “thief” anymore.
Hmm, you know there was an almost mythical profession in Guild Wars 1 that was the type of class you just described… and that game lacked stealth entirely!
This will just be a list of stuff I’ve been thinking while playing spvp.
-Every build deals massive damage, be it with dagger, sword, shortbow (haven’t seen much pistol thieves). Even autoattacks alone are powerful enough to kill someone.
I stopped reading there. Obviously this guy has never made a thief that went deep into Tricks and Stealth (for sneaky trapping) to find that HS and any other skill was extremely weak
You won’t indeed be seeing backstab crits like 14k with a tricks and stealth build (it was my favorite build when I played my thief btw). BUT, and this is important, you still deal a lot of damage while not being specced into it. (5k crit backstabs, over 1k autoattack). So the defense build deals as much damage as some glass ‘cannon’ builds of other classes, and that’s another thing which I don’t accept.
I’ll try to answer to other people’s comments as well tomorrow, but some posts have more priority.
Our defensive builds are weaker than other classes defensive builds, doesn’t matter whether you accept it or not.
Not really Milo. For one, you can still be hit in Stealth. For another, Stealth is limited duration, and you can’t stealth for 3 seconds after leaving stealth. If a Thief has Stealth utility, they lose out on other things.
I think your problem is more with Backstab Thieves than anything else, but that is why people who don’t know much about classes shouldn’t be on forums trying to make design decisions.
Most Warriors don’t beat me as P/P. Maybe you just need to pick your utility skills better. Kite or stealth the invuln if that is the problem you are having.
Dark Age of Camelot? Infiltrator, Shadowblade, and Nightshade ring a bell?
Sorry, but you are advocating for an archaic version of a class that just wasn’t that fun. Nobody wants to play that “jack of all trades” class that is a master of nothing. I want to play an Assassin. If Thief was some “jack of all trades” watered down boring class, I would have no interest in playing them.
Just have to wait for the meta to shift away from this incredibly tedious double/triple bunkers + mesmers kitten we have now before we see how strong thieves actually are…
It’s probably not going to unless there are some major changes.
When you look at your skill bar, unless you’re a Thief, you’ll notice that some of your pretty awesome skills are on a 30+ second CD. The Thief class does not have this problem.
Yes, in exchange, their skills are much weaker than other professions similar skills. Compare Head Shot vs Magic Bullet.
By the way, before the game came out everyone on these forums (during betas) and guild wars 2 guru forums swore up and down Warrior was Anets pet class and they were the most overpowered thing ever seen in a MMO. We see how right those people were. Maybe the forums aren’t a good place to get your ideas on class balance. Better to learn from experience.
I don’t only play a Thief. I played a Warrior and Elementalist almost exclusively through the beta. I just happen to be focusing on Thief at the moment. I also played pretty much every class up to at least level 20-30 and have played all of them a decent amount in sPvP and some in tPvP.
I didn’t say Warriors were fine, I just said they aren’t as bad as people make them out to be. Anet does think they are in a good place though so good luck changing that.
Warriors aren’t as bad as people make them out to be. Yes, they probably have some issues that need to be addressed, but they aren’t that bad. The perception that they are so bad comes from the fact that team size is limited and other professions can do a Warriors job a little better. It doesn’t mean they are some horrible kittened class incapable of playing on any team worth anything.
You don’t understand Zsymon. Mug does a little bit of damage (way more specs than Backstab rely on it). In order for steal to stealth you, you have to trait for it (most don’t), in order for steal to have 1200 range you have to trait for it (most don’t). The reason this combo is so deadly is because Cloak and Dagger can be interrupted mid cast (pre casting) by Steal, which then instantly puts you in range to land the C&D and then use your Assassination Signet Backstab (for 150% damage thanks to Sig). This damage all happens in about a second. That is the problem, not Backstab. Most Thieves with specs that don’t revolve around trying to make Backstab ridiculous, don’t hit that hard with Backstab. If you nerf the skill itself, which is not the problem, it just makes Backstab useless for anyone but the ones trying to make it ridiculous.
Any damage a warrior can do can be avoided by dodging or blocking, since none of their moves are instant. The problem with thieves is that there is simple no time to dodge or block or even use abilities such as endure pain, because the onslaught is instantaneous.
Mug is instant with a 900-1200 range, meaning you will never know the presence of the thief before he comes, often the thief won’t even render on your screen at that range, and when they precast C&D the entire combo happens in less than a second.
Then when they’ve hasted, you’re downed in less than a second, and dead two and a half seconds, since the finishing takes two seconds under haste.
No profession in the game has any tools to counter this instant death. The only way to survive is having a lot of health and toughness, but even then you won’t have much health left, and a few heartseekers will finish you off, which will come in under a second because the thief is still hasted.
Have less than 18K+ hp and you’re dead (this is not glass cannon, which means the thief will kill almost anyone like this, not just glass cannons).. and if you have the most possible, like 29K, then your dps will be so low that you won’t down the thief before the heartseekers down you, and they come hard since you’re low health.
First I thought thief wasn’t overpowered, but I have to take that opinion back, it’s just not balanced. Fights are meant to last more than 3 seconds.. and like I said a thief will not just down glass cannons in under 3 seconds, they will down & kill anyone except full tanks like that.. and tanks will still go down to the heartseekers, since they cannot do enough damage to put pressure on the thief with their measly ~400 dps.
Re-read my post. Backstab is not the problem and neither is the Thief class as a whole. There are a few things causing problems that should be addressed, but the Backstab skill itself is not one of them.
I find it inappropriate that thieves accused of dealing too much damage always point to warriors. Those classes are indefinitely different, although Pistol Whip might feel a lot like 100b.
They really aren’t all that different, and you would be surprised how often you can use Eviscerate (which doesn’t require stealth or being behind someone, by the way). You may also be surprised to know that most Thieves Backstab don’t even crit as hard as Eviscerate. I had to go out of my way and use things I wouldn’t normally use to get it this high.
In order for me to get it to the levels you guys are claiming, I would have to use Assassination Signet. That tells me the problem isn’t Backstab. There are two problems currently. Assassination Signet needs to go and using Steal to interupt your C&D and teleport instantly to your target and land your C&D setting you up for your Assassination Signet loaded Backstab (all happens pretty much instantly) are the problems.
If you cant beat em, join em. If the devs think one ability doing 9k is fair, use it yourself. If/when you figure out what kills you as thief, you’ll be able to play AGAINST them that much better.
Yeah, 9k damage is so unfair. 9.9k is alright though, right? No buffs there other than what you see. Pretty standard glass cannon spec.
The Warrior was likely using the Taugrim’s Captain Hammer build. It is one of the most viable Warrior builds, but most Warrior’s still run glass cannon builds.
Not viable at all. I could tank 2 people way longer than this guy ever did on my Necro. Make that 3 if I have plague up.
Going point holder Warrior is the same thing as point holder Thief. In other words, its not going to work. Just like a Necro roaming, that doesn’t work either.
Roaming with a Warrior isn’t all that bad to be honest. Just that every simpleton on this forums believes that Bulls Charge + Frenzy is the end-all be-all build for Warrior that no other build is viable.
That spec is viable. It may not be the best tanky spec in the game, but it doesn’t mean it is worthless either. Of course you are better off with a Guardian or something on point, but I was pointing out what spec it could have been.
Jade Quarry player here. Personally I think one of the worst mistakes they could have possibly made was adding Orbs or Power to the game. Relics were a bad idea 10 years ago in DAoC and they are still a bad idea now in GW2. Sure, fighting over them in DAoC was fun, but they also completely imbalanced the game realm populations.
I agree about supply etc also. The problem seems to be that the losers have to fight and uphill battle, and since they were already fighting an uphill battle population wise it puts the odds much more against them than they should be.
I played warrior when the game came out, now 100B max damage is 700 even if you set your traits to max on arms and dis and power!
But its okay to take a back stab for 20K!
kitten A NET!
Backstab for 20k is impossible under normal circumstances. Maybe if a Backstab speced Thief gets a Warrior who just used Frenzy or has 3 orbs of power, max bloodlust stacks, tons of might stacks, and the target is stacked with vulnerability.
The Warrior was likely using the Taugrim’s Captain Hammer build. It is one of the most viable Warrior builds, but most Warrior’s still run glass cannon builds.
In other words, everything I don’t like should be nerf, said the Necro. Most of what you have issues with seems to revolve around your hate for the Thief class. Get rid of stealth stomps? Really? lol Only if they get rid of all the other cheese ways to stomp, including stability.
I do respect you for posting a video though, I am not even sure how to use FRAPS.
The problem with HS spam isn’t that it’s good – it isn’t, you’ll get owned by anyone with a clue in a 1v1 – it’s that it’s too rewarding for spamming one ability mindlessly.
The problem with HS spam is it basically makes a completely awful player marginally competent simply by pressing one ability over and over because it does everything for them. There is a reason almost all bad players play thieves: because the class is basically set up to let even awful players succeed occasionally just by stacking damage increases and spamming 2 and hoping HS will do everything for you. No need to aim, no need to move, just spam 2!
All bad players play Thieves? lol
Sorry, but I have met bad players from every single class in the game. If you really think a Thief can just press 2 and be successful, you don’t have any idea what you are talking about. The only way a Thief might be able to be moderately successful spamming nothing but Heartseeker is if everyone else was doing the work for him. That means he would have to be following around an assist train and anyone can follow around an assist train.
Heart Seeker is NOT a problem anymore. The original nerf was needed so that it would be used for its intended purpose, but other than that it is fine. The most that could be done is have the range slightly lowered so it isn’t such an effective gap closer.
