No reason sPvP shouldn’t give a small amount of XP imo. Everything else in this game does, and I don’t know of any modern MMOs that cut XP out of instanced PvP (except this one).
It’s initiative better spent elsewhere. Don’t waste your time using Body Shot. A mere 5% damage for 7.5 seconds, and it cost only 1 less initiative than an Unload? You will do more DPS not using it.
The HS nerf was understandable, it was meant as a finisher not a all the time spammer. The Pistol Whip nerf had good intentions but was done wrong. The problem with PW isn’t the skill itself, so nerfing the skill itself punishes people who don’t use haste in their builds further. Same thing if they nerf Backstab when the problem is actually the C&D>Steal>Assassination Signet combo and the fact that you get all that damage instantly. Solution is to obviously not nerf the skill, because that just makes Backstab useless for people who don’t make specs that revolve around it.
Are you sure? I distinctly remember a developer saying they were aware that fear wasn’t effected by stability and it was a design decision to give stability more weakness. Maybe they changed their minds since then and didn’t put it in patch notes?
The solution is to fix c&d to steal combo that makes all the damage happen instantly and completely negates and entire trait (steal stealths you). If this design was intentional that trait would not exist imo.
Stability says it protects against fear (or did, not sure now) but I am fairly positive it doesn’t. I seem to recall a developer post stating that this was intentional as well.
I’ve tried every single weapon spec with a warrior. Lots of trait combinations. I always end up having to spec frenzy, no matter if it’s with hammer, sword, greatsword or axe.
The reason is a warrior is completely kitable. He suffers from knockbacks, snares, immobilises and out of every class suffers the biggest dps drop if he isn’t next to his target.
Warrior frenzy is 4 seconds of haste + 50 percent increase damage TAKEN…(did you read that properly?) every 60 seconds.
Without haste the HB attack is pretty much useless, unless the person stands there for the entire 4 seconds (never).
So you want to negate any dps a warrior has in its entirety.
That is EXACTLY the reason it should be removed. You will forever be balanced around it in its current form.
The worst thing about this is for ele’s, both mist form and also focus number 5 obsidian flesh (which is just an invuln) also does the same thing as a thief in stealth. So bunker ele’s utilizing mist form and a focus are suffering from the same issue.
Yet, people probably think that should be changed.. while they let their blind hate of a class control their rational thoughts about how stealth should work.
wait, so this is a serious thread? lmao
if you want to bunker a point then how about standing out in the open and taking it in the face like every other bunker build has to?
seriously, how is this thread not locked by now?
Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about the Thief. A thief only has one form of survivability, and it is stealth.
Correction. Thief has at least four forms of defense. (Five if you count cripple) Stealth, Blindness, Interupts (usually dazinging) and evasion.
You are really grasping at straws now. Not a single one of those is reliable and good enough besides stealth to actually be counted as a form of defense. Also, things that everyone has like dodge can’t even be counted so stop trying to use them.
wait, so this is a serious thread? lmao
if you want to bunker a point then how about standing out in the open and taking it in the face like every other bunker build has to?
seriously, how is this thread not locked by now?
Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about the Thief. A thief only has one form of survivability, and it is stealth.
I’m a Thief and I agree Quickness needs to be fixed, for all classes. I would rather see it removed, but would settle for the options you put forth.
Because the cost of Gold for Gems Fluctuates and can have no RM attachment, imagine 5000 servers at the time custom servers are released, now imagine everyone pays in gems, but they purchased the gems through gold they got in game, that means that the cost of running these servers will be entirely on Anet.
If gems have a currency value (as they are trying to force) that shouldn’t matter.
I love this kind of stuff. I think we need a thread dedicated to it.
I played a Warlock in WOW and anyone who played a warlock or rogue will understand this gif:
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/Zorro_013/lolLockpic.gif
It’s painful, funny, and true all at the same time.
That’s why you needed instant Howl of Terror. lol
Their defense stems from a strong offense. For them, defending a point amounts to killing someone before it can be captured. Stealth capping is simply not a good idea. You play as a thief and there is something you are agreeing to. You will be focusing on the offense side of builds. If you want to play a true defensive role, you might consider playing a different class.
Why? Engineers don’t have to make that decision. They can play any role they want to.
The point is that the way nodes are capped in this game is counter productive to stealth, and Thieves should not be punished for a very much integral part of the class. Why do you think there are so many Thieves that don’t even bother with stealth specs and they are all burst/haste specs? Maybe because stealth is punished in the current games PvP.
Personally, I would take the WoW/ToR style capture switch that takes 5-10 seconds to cap uninterrupted over this system which punishes certain classes.
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You are missing the point. With stealth, a thief can play very recklessly, get away with cutting a lot of defensive corners, and still survive. That’s the point of the mechanic. A bunker Guardian is built for one purpose — to defend the point. If you had your way, a thief would be able to both rock those same devastating offensive builds, while also playing an insane point staller role. They could kill you or stall you — a bunker can only do one.
As I said before, the concept that “thieves are useless on defense” is incorrect. Evades do not give away point and thieves have tons of options to stack dodge and evades, while building to otherwise be bunkery themselves. If that’s the role you want, you got it.
But this idea of a stealth staller thief is insane. If they make this change, I am definitely running a max stealth caltrops condition thief. Stack conditions, go stealth in a corner (and use dodge if every they actually get close to hitting me). Rinse, repeat, win. How is this even a debate?
Wrong. I never said they should defend as well as a Bunker Guardian when speced for offense. You are making assumptions and putting words in my and other mouths. What I am saying is they SHOULD NOT be completely useless on defense. Currently, they pretty much are because the second they stealth (which Thieves have to do or kitten themselves) they lose the point. It’s as if a Ranger used “Protect Me!” or a Warrior used “Ignore Pain” and they lose the point for it. Sorry, but that isn’t fair to Thieves. I also already said you wouldn’t be able to cap while stealthed, they just also wouldn’t be able to cap simply because you stealthed to avoid getting 3 shot.
jesus christ will you baddies stop complaining? oh my god.
when did the forums become a place to cry about it every time you get killed by x or y class……. lord have mercy on these kids.
Actually, I am a Thief myself. I just recognize issues with the game that should be addressed.
Personally i think it will work like other games, real money, Why ?
Gems will be too easy to obtain through gold so unless its a lot of gems, say 10000 for a month’s usage, (which if you were to convert into the current RM purchasing of gems, would = a really overpriced custom server, comparitive to server rental of other games), i think they will go for the RM rental, because unlike gems which can be purchased for gold, they will make real funds to support the cost of running custom servers and bandwidth requirements.
Isn’t that the point of gems? Why shouldn’t you be able to convert gold to gems and rent a server? They have a currency value attached to them by Anet and are supposed to be interchangeable.
Two things.
1) You are forgetting about the massive stacks of Might the thief during steps 1 and 2.
2) I personally like quickness when it is very small and trait or % proc based. I do not like it when it is an on-demand utility. Either way, I don’t think it should be outright removed from the game.
I didn’t forget about it, I just don’t see it as a major factor. It wouldn’t be a problem if not for the other stuff.
I’m not a fan of quickness procs or the quickness proc traits, personally. On demand quickness is worse of course. I would like to see all of them removed but would be satisfied if they all just had the Warrior penalty or worse (maybe triple damage).
Problem 1: C&D interrupted by Steal (teleports you directly to your target and then you immediately hit them with C&D and stealth, which sets you up for problem 2)
Problem 2: Assassination Signet (150% damage on next attack) – Sorry, but this is too easy to abuse with Backstab and gives us Thieves a bad name.
Problem 3: Quickness effects (and this is across all classes, not just Thief) They are counter productive to balanced PvP and make it so classes that have them will end up completely balanced around them. I’m sorry, but I would much rather see Haste removed so my class can be balanced normally and not having to take Haste into consideration every time they make any changes.
Which is why I said cap it. So it wouldn’t be overpowered. You wouldn’t be able to use Shadow Refuge to sit on the node for a long time because the time you can prevent capping in stealth would be capped at 5-6 seconds.
This wouldn’t even be 1/10th as powerful as a Bunker Guardian sitting on a point, so I don’t even want to hear it. It would just mean Thieves aren’t completely useless on defense.
“Stop making it out like every single Thief is Backstab speced.”
I’m sorry. I meant to point out this build specifically. I’ll edit that.
You don’t even need to edit it because thieves damage as a whole is to high the whole class with get a 10 to 15 % damage nerf across the board. Backstab is just the largest glaring problem………..
even if they need to make them 10 to 20% tankier i would be cool with that because the game needs to have longer fights vs thieves for this to be an…… lol …. e-Sport?
Err no. Thief damage is not too high across the board. Quickness burst builds are the problem.
So maybe make it so you can’t cap while in stealth, but neither can they if you are sitting on a point stealthed (at least for up to 6 seconds or something). This would go a long way to making Thieves not completely horrible for defending a node.
The other team has 0 of either class on their team. That was just bad luck.
I’m currently running bunker elementalist with 2k toughness and while i have armor or earth i have 2,298 toughness and i still 8k+ crit from thief backstabbing broken or what? they just go from uber heartseeker to Pistolwhip spam then they find out once again new thing to kill enemy in less than 4seconds what’s next?, they can autoattack kill in you in 2 seconds without traits and stuff really good job on the thief class tbh….
If you wanted to complain about Thieves there are other threads you could complain in. Creating an entirely new thread about an already discussed topic just clutters the forums. Thanks.
Here is one, took me all of 2 seconds to find it.
(edited by Ashanor.5319)
That is one spec, not the entire class. Stop making it out like every single Thief is Backstab speced.
The problem is the 150% damage on next hit sigil and the fact that you can cloak and dagger then interrupt it with steal and teleport instantly to them landing your c&d and instantly going into stealth for the 150% damage Backstab.
You could do what TOR did with energy for the Gunslinger/Scoundrel. The more energy you had, the faster you regen. The less you have the slower you regen. Of course Thief skills would have to be balanced around this new system.
I wouldn’t say guardian is easier to kill, no bunker should ever die 1v1 unless they’re bad though.
Yes, they should. Thinking they shouldn’t is the same line of thinking as healers thinking they should be invincible 1v1 and even 1v2 in other games.
You lose and you are done anyway.
Well, clearly it is not intended for a premade to be able to sPvP together, but frequently I see 3-4 people from the same guild on the same team. They may not be guaranteed to get on the same team, but they go out of their way to make sure it happens as much as possible using team switching.
Seeming to never run out of initiative. Being able to spam nothing but SB 3 and escape any situation (without using any other Thief utility). It also seems to move about twice as far it does when I use the same ability. For instance, he went from beach to the water in about 3 seconds of spamming it. Tried it myself, not possible. Won’t move you that far or that fast, much less both. He also refuses to respond to anyone, and I have never seen him leave a game.. until I threatened to report him to Anet. This was the second time I have seen this guy in the last week, doing exactly the same thing. He uses nothing but Shortbow.
I am heading to bed. If anyone has any idea where to report this guy just leave a message here and I will read it tomorrow morning.
(edited by Ashanor.5319)
Yes, there are no options for cheating or exploiting under that menu.
I didn’t notice any option in game and need to report someone who I am sure is cheating. Seen him two different occasions now doing the exact same thing.
This has been covered in half a dozen threads I know of, but I’ll restate what IMO is the major problem. In WvW a thief can chain stealth and prevent a point from flipping, with no way for you to break it. Including spamming AOE throughout the entire circle.
What? lol
Not hard to understand. They can chain stealth and prevent the opposing side from capping the objective.
Discussed here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/What-class-can-go-invisible-with-no-apparent-cooldown/first#post345707
As well as a few places on guru.
How do you figure they can do that when being in stealth prevents progression on a point? In any case, even if for some reason this is possible in WvW, it means that issue should be fixed. This post is just a stealth witch hunt. Not trying to fix issues.
Did you really ask that? How isn’t it? You are knowingly gaining currency via unintended means. Instead of reporting them and moving on, you are working with them to further your own progression. Essentially, you should consider yourself a bot if you are going to do this. You are also being detrimental to your server in WvW.
To an extent I agree. If you want to police the server and farm these bots to prevent them from doing it that is fine, but you shouldn’t profit from it.
I’m going to say this plain. Arenanet needs to stop making adjustments based off of PvP game without considering PVE, or their larger chunk of players will suffer for it.
Better get used to PvP being considered first and foremost buddy. This isn’t WoW.
-1 for nerf quickness.
In this thread, other professions spending too much time focusing on another profession not their own.
But hey, these guys must be perfect players.
Actually, I play a Thief main and Ranger alt, try again.
Don’t change quickness. It forces players to consider well rounded defense and realize the flaws of one sided builds. Cheese needs to exist for the invention of effective counter-cheese. Only exploitative combos (if any exist) should be adjusted.
Technically, the best way to counter burst is with burst.. unless you play a class that can effectively spec for a true defensive build. Many classes can spec for a defensive build, but it is hardly an effective way to play the class (Thieves and Rangers come to mind).
Don’t take my word for it though. Go make a Thief and spec for full defensive play, with defensive sigils and runes and let me know how far you get. lol
The only defensive Thief spec I know of revolves around Death Blossom spamming.
(edited by Ashanor.5319)
I agree with your 2nd bit.
But as far as your first I definately disagree. Perma Stealth wouldn’t mean crap in conquest, they have to come out eventually to cap a node or fight someone.
Difference is, wow’s stealth could be broken with dmg, could be seen through, and had only 1-2 ways to go into it IN combat on a long cooldown.
Stealth here can’t be broken, can’t be seen through, works in combat, and has a super short cooldown in comparison and multiple abilities that stealth you.
Do a crap ton of dmg, stealth away, re-open, stealth away, re-open. You can do it as much as you have depending on your build.
I’d take thieves with WoW stealth any day. =p
Spoken like someone who never played a Rogue in WoW to it’s full potential. With proper talents, it wasn’t hard to get back into stealth. First you had vanish of course, on a couple minute cooldown. Second, it only took 5 seconds out of combat (talented) to get back into stealth if I remember correctly. Getting out of combat in WoW was much easier than getting out of combat in many other games. Gouge or stun them and start running out of range, by the time they could react you would already be back in stealth. WoW stealth and the Rogue class in general was infinitely better than Thieves in GW2. They just had more tools to get the job done properly.
Yes, AoE damage would knock you out of stealth in WoW, but the classes that could do that were limited and it was hard to guess at where they were since stealth was unlimited duration. They may be 50 feet away waiting for you to start walking away again or could be right behind you. If damage knocked you out of stealth in this game stealth would be completely useless. Thieves almost constantly take large amounts of damage while stealthed because they generally are close up and people are still spamming attacks when you stealth.
Sorry, but you are just wrong. Rogue is clearly light years ahead of Thief. You would never hear the end of the crying (and you still haven’t in WoW after all these years) if Rogues existed here instead of Thieves.
I definitely think immobilize is too strong. I think most immobilize effects should have double the cooldown they currently have, and last half the amount of time they currently do. I think the bigger issue is immobilize combined with quickness and burst abilities.
Stealth is INSANELY strong in this game, stronger than any game out there.
Obviously, you have never played WoW. lol I would take WoW stealth any day.
Quickness is an extremely stupid mechanic, the game is bursty enough w/o it, make quickness classes have to actually set up spike like Ele/Necro/Engy.
The problem is that the classes that have quickness effects have been balanced around them, which is why I am all for removing quickness and balancing classes without the effect (speaking as someone who plays Thief main and Ranger alt).
Well, personally I think Thief is fine. Mesmer is a little strong in 1v1 and 1v2 (I made one speced him power and precision and was 1v2ing people within 5 minutes with S/P and Staff), and a little weak in larger group encounters. Guardian is a little too strong defensively and the only class that is pretty much required for tPvP.
What I do think needs to be changed is all quickness effects. Just remove them from the game and balance classes without them, please.
It isn’t a L2P issue in any meaningful sense of the word. Quickness is a 100% damage boost skill. It is the only buff in the game that is even close to a 100% damage boost.
The problem with a skill that boosts your damage by 100% is it means your damage has to either suck when not boosted or it becomes overpowered when it is boosted.
It’s like pally bubble from early in wow: pallys had to suck at everything baseline to make up for the 8 sec invulnerability. It took blizzard years to get the class into a decent place and it is still more prone to unbalance than most other wow classes.
It’s just a bad mechanic. Burst combos shouldn’t be based around hitting a button and getting a 100% dps boost. That’s just bad design.
Which was my point. Classes will always be balanced around this bad design, and because of that it needs to be removed to move forward.
I think the point system is fine other than not rewarding defense. There needs to be bonuses for guarding a point. Zerging is encouraged by map design, not points.
JQ uses blatant spies: one is even named “Jade Quarry Spy”, continues to taunt us in map chat. No need for subtley, right?
Sounds more like an obvious troll to me. lol
I always found having to unlock all those skills extremely annoying.
Finally the reason D/P is inferior DPS wise is because of the time it takes you to do things as well as cost. Using your own crazy azz rotations above, you’d be out of initiative long before D/D while taking longer to do the same exact damage that D/D can do. Also assuming that you have a complete kitten who doesn’t know to move out of smoke when he sees it.
Slightly less DPS for multiple blinds? Don’t forget your dual skill is a blind and doesn’t do that horrible of damage either. Personally I prefer D/P.
I have run a P/P, D/D Thief since the first BWE and been in love with the whole idea of it. I started using a SB in WvW out of what I felt was necessity (It’s just more useful to me there). Last night I crafted the Mystic Crescent for WvW and started running around in PVE with it. As much as i hated to admit it, it was A LOT better (at least for my play style). So then i went into sPVP and changed out my P/P setup for a SB and was blown away my the increase I saw in my PVP performance, I could take on groups of 2-3 and not have to just cut and run because I was outnumber, it was fun (Won quite a few 2v1’s).
But to address your question: Really you can run any weapon set you want if you’re able to make it work with your play style. If you tend to run with groups a P/D or D/P could be nice for support and combos if you run solo a lot a SB is a must IMO for making a quick getaway. carry more than one set up and you can switch as needed, out of combat of course.
I personally seem to do better with P/P than SB, although I definitely think P/P needs some improvements.
So lame that people do this. Thanks for the response Matt.
I’d partially argue that this might be a problem with the build. I have, for instance, a S/P thief with the familiar utilities that come with that but the build isn’t built around Hate or Pistol Whip but around Dodge and positional benefits. Noting this, I can say to the following:
While I agree you could make a build without it, adding it just makes PW that much more powerful in times when you need burst. Personally, I play D/P P/P and I don’t use haste in my builds. I use Shadowstep, Shadow Refuge, and alternate between Ambush Trap, and a few others for my third slot.
This sentence sort of explains the parts before. But sPvP isn’t really what you balance around necessarily. Team composition is going to be nuts all across the board, which means that there are going to be situations in it that won’t happen in tournaments, especially in paid tourneys when they’re all set and ready to go. Situations that are hard to account for.
Perhaps I’m going to speak out of line but if Quickness was removed, I’m going to question if, even then, you’d still be able to deal with the three hypothetical opponents.
I’m sorry but I really can’t agree with PvP not being balanced around sPvP as well as tPvP. The reason you don’t see that problem as much in tPvP is because people are less likely to be zerging around in a melee assist train. It doesn’t mean sPvP should be entirely left out of any balance decisions. Especially considering that is what the majority do, sPvP and WvW. You need to balance around all types of PvP, and if necessary do what they did in GW1 with skills working differently for PvE.
I deal with quickness just fine, I just don’t think it is balanced in the current form. I think it is detrimental to the game and unnecessary. I would rather see it removed completely than toned down. I’d rather my class not be balanced around this mechanic, nor do I want to see Ranger, Warrior, or Engineer balanced with this mechanic in mind. It will severely hinder the classes in the future because they will always have to consider what haste can do.