Guild Wars 2

Really stuck them on one element?They should make you pass a small iq test before allowing you to start a new thread here

Well my take on sotg was that it was bad..for all my opinion is worth.
They spent so much time talking about eles and whatnot and left things most people care like solo queue at the end..
But thats a problem of bringing players like java and lowell who probably dont care that much about actually making the game casually friendly as much as fixing the meta in a way that their team and their class has a better advantage..
No seriously..“ele op,im a thief and i get owned by frost aura..preposterous!!! aaa and btw we want solo queue”
My god even i could do a better job at explaining them the communitys concerns and whats important at this time.Apparently anet think esports start from the hardcore side of things when in reality its the other way around…
But yay we got from them that they plan on nerfing ele..My life is fulfilled now that i know that!

Khyras.8021:

nerva.7940:

point is, mesmer needs more viable builds. everyone is facerolling shatter because they can.

No, point is mesmer is cheap, annoying, badly designed fun killing class no matter what build they have.

hmm.. just because you play ranger? (probably) we dont have to dumb down every other class to pew pew 1 spam or traps and circle around them.Sorry for being mean but this is getting out of hand..you show pure hate to some classes which is really weird,like they stole your puppy and you are set to extinguish them..
For me mesm ,eles ,engineers and even some thief bulds have better and more interesting playstyles than every iother class..for you they are just annoying.Nothing we can do about it!
Oh and engie is up now wait for a buff and you ll soon hate him as well witht the control the class offers atm..

lol this thread is really getting ridiculous.Warrior gets triple swap?? :O
Ele gets his sustain cut at half and rtl only targeted spell?? :0
Blurred frenzy 30 sec cd??
Lol just imagine what would happen if the above guy or anyone from the standard forum posters got the lead at balancing the game..Just imagine the horror!

^yeah..Anet what are you doing??clones seriously?
Quick change every class core mechanic to a stupid burst skill that builds up with some kind of energy.Then give them a big sword to swing to each other and see the interesting gameplay that develops afterwards ..
hehe :P

(@3 posts above :P )People saying bunker ele does damage are ignorrant.You can equip berzerkers amulet and 3 cantrips go in hot join and tank even 5 noobs while killing them.Or even in free tourneys an ele with sigil of energy,vigor,arcane shield,2 armor of earth,mist,lightning flas can hold 2+ rank ~30 for a VERY long time if played properly regardless of stats and even kill them..
Then you get people posting in forums “bla bla ele bunker can kill bla bla”. A true ele bunker with clerics WONT kill you even if you go afk..
And to be honest this game its about avoiding damage..any class with excessive dodging, the mobility of ele, plenty of stunbreakers.access of protection and regen and a couple of stunbreakers will be a pain in the kitten to kill regardless of healing or toughness etc..
Now about warrior imo damage is fine as is survivability in 100 blades spec..Condies that lock them down like chill and kiting is their problem.Also think the possibility of having better range options with buffing the longbow/rifle.

yeah nerf all bunkers with access to retaliation
(ele s/d comes out clean :P )

Why do you even respond seriously ?Isnt it obvious he is trolling hard?
And while i love reading Sataarcoenys post i have no idea why this is still here :P

Schwahrheit.4203:

ilJumperMT.4871:

Miko.5726:

ilJumperMT.4871:

Warrior has a good selection of weapons, the problem is traits.

Traits, conditions AND positioning. (no blink, no stealth, no real defense)

Traits can fix conditions, like someone suggested immoblize strike removes chill and cripple also. I like that idea

And nerf Ele’s to the ground already. You shouldn’t be able to shut down a class when you press that permanent chill Aura share button.

lol!!You know it doesn proc from range and you can just avoidusing mutli hits when its up?
But of course ele in regards to the popular belief has the best healing,massive burst ,sustain,best mobility AND perma chill now all in the fotm 30/30/30/30/30/30 build :P
Thats like a post here which said warriors can pull of 30k 100 blades..mind you.

lol stop posting that video…
Phantaram clearly paniced there and messed things up.
You dont waste mistform for an immobilize.You either go in water and cleanse it or go in air and updraft the warrior the moment he tries to 100blades you…
And what would you do if he had 2 cabtrips instead of 1?? Probably die :P
Warriors burst is very telegraphed and easy to manage in the 100 blades build to use it for baiting stunbreakers.What usually happens is the other way around..you have your allies bait stunbreakers and then come in and burst..imo

If the ele runs ether + cond removal traits in arcana,water (which is pretty much everyone :P) you will always lose unless you interrupt his heal.If you do that then it goes in full cd and he is kittened up,you win!
Im not familiar with cond mesmers since you very rarely meet them in spvp but a signet heal ele will go down to a flow of continuous condition application.Certainly not a stalemate without ether.
I dont know if you could eventually take down with condies a full bunker s/d or staff ele but those specs cant kill you either.
So my guess is they should have been using ether renewal(the ones you had stalemates with)

firebreathz.7692:

Budg.3064:

Actually, you can use both scepter air 2 and 3 while channeling 1 (in PvE, if this is not the case in sPvP I apologise).

In keeping with the theme of the water attunment on the other Elementalist weapons, Ice Shards would have to apply vulnerability rather than weakness.

the problem with that is shatter stone already gives 15s of x4 vulnerability on a 2 sec CD so it can be stacked up with ease already..

Create a shatterstone at the target area that explodes after two seconds, inflicting vulnerability.
Damage: 252
4 Vulnerability: 15 s
Radius: 180
Range: 900

so why do u need more on your auto attack?

well.. 2 sec delay/small radius/ground targetted..i really doubt you would manage to keep 4 stack reliably on your enemy Maybe its good in pve but i dont like pve only skills mess up with my skill bar in pvp
Also cd starts after the thing explodes which is also weird considering the other spells with delay effect dont!

Yes i know shatterstone is not instant.But..
1) it appears no casting bar when you cast it
2)if you get interrupted while you are on the animation or you dodge it still goes off and does damage
3)it has its damage cancelled when you use escape to cancell it manually
So it is really messed up and probably heavily bugged..
Imo it should be instant activation with the current delay of the effect..Or change the spell properties so its actually worth spending a sec casting it.
Scepter against dagger mainhand has some pretty crappy spells but it is saved by the advantage of range that it provides and the extra effecetive heal in water.
I wish after they reduce healing they get a close look at all the autoattacks and the “filler” spells like shatterstone.

yep everyone in this thread compares how fragile is their glass canon specs with how tanky the 30 water arcane eles are..while they should be complaining about how inefective their defencive builds are atm.
But really the 100 blades warrior build with zerkers IS supposed to have less survivability than a valkyries 30 in water d/d ele and after the patch that will still be the case or lets throw balance completely out of the window cause of some forum posts.
(Btw im not saying warrior is in a good place and dont need buffs ..in case you failed to realise and getting ready to jump on me :P )

firebreathz.7692:

daydream.2938:

stayed alive the most? idk ull see some tools kiting aroudn to avoid fights to pick that one up. Holding a point, thats not bad.

see what u mean, i can imagine ppl hiding in a corner

lol can you imagine that!

firebreathz.7692:

Arheundel.6451:

Nothing big, just allow us to use ice shards while shatterstone it’s activating, I’m sure this must be a bug, why else we shoulnd’t be able to use the water auto-attack while shatterstone is activating?

Finally can we add a condition to ice shards? Let’s add 3s weakness(1s for shard) to ice shards, this along with one of the improvement to dragon’s tooth, would make the set extremely good in my opinion

so you want to be able to use an auto attack while your casting shatter stone? does that seem right to you, essentially you are wanting to use 2 weapon skills at the same time.

the reason you shouldn’t is because you are casting shatter stone, no profession can use an auto attack during a cast time of another skill…

this is a silly request

Have you even played ele yet?
You can already use scepter air 1 with 2 at same time just cause the 2 is instant.
Shatterstone is worthless ability that makes no sence to cast unless it was made to not take any of your casting time…Ele state right now doesnt affect one bit the fact that shatterstone should be reworked cause right now its just a blank skill slot.\period
Maybe you would like to cast it if you know you gonna dodge immediately since its bugged and still fires when dodging…

But weakness on ice shards with this duration is too strong .I would preffer a small bleed chance or make it a 20% projectile.Also dt landing requires more skill right now and you can still bait melees in it and use it for zoning without ccs.

Eristina is so kitten right :P
If you want to fight hard teams arrange matches on your own and train together.
Now if you really want progression at same time on the flawed qp ladder system thats your problem.
What there is now is better than before even without matchmaking and if you cant see it then you probably are stuck with..elitism :P

(And btw im pretty sure that if anet wanted testing of the new map being done only by onibawan,tp,cn etc and all the current qp dominant teams im pretty sure they would have contacted you directly :P.. maybe you need to come down to earth a bit..)

daydream.2938:

Mesmers not too bad if u can keep up w the real one quickly.
Ele /ranger/ guardian are super tough 1on1 and can be just shy of essentianlly unkillable.

The whole point of a bunker is to hold 1 balanced guy indefinately and 2 balanced enemies for a fair amount of time..Of course bunker eles,rangers,guardians should seem unkillable to you unless you run glass.What would be the point of having them if they would die in 1vs1 without being able to kill??Many even top players would say to you guardians are balanced bunkers and im pretty sure you wouldnt be able to kill them with direct damage unless you super burst them in 1vs1
Also mesmers dont run bunker build’s amulets…maybe thats why they seem easy to kill for you:P
But the amount of escapes,invuln and jail free cards they have paired with high healing/toughness/vitality stats would also make them unkillable to you..
I get the feeling that every time one fails to kill someone decides to whine in the forum instead to try and understand why ..:(
(this is no defence of anything over top btw..i just cant help but notice you want to get rid an entire role out of pvp)

Too Frisky.9165:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Yea, anyone should die when you want them to die.

I’m not arguing that a player needs to die no matter what when I engage him, I’m arguing that certain classes such as Elementalists and Mesmers are light armor characters that can take more punishment than a bunker Guardian. That’s quite broken. They need their healing utilities DRASTICALLY nerfed.

i dont want to defend over the top stuff with the system now but we are talking about gw2 here and like gw1 only the build counts.If a mesmer or an ele wants to be tanky they should be as you heavy armor guardian even though the means they achieve it are different like evades/healing or stealth.
Also i dont know if you have noticed it but eles super tanky mode is not the only ridiculous spec in game.Thieves can specc for healing and stealth and never die to anything ,rangers are already used as bunkers and also engies can spec tanky as kitten and mesmer can get extremely survival selfish builds.
Assuming that the space and methods are not restricted i can say that at least for the above classes there are builds that simply wont die against 2 people unless of extreme burst cases like thieves.
My problem with the ele is how when you stack them up the healing potential/protection uptime and buffs skyrocket.Maybe they could reduce the aoe effects of buffs(elem attunement effecting only yourself??)
And of course tone down healing just a bit :P

They never said anything about eles aoe only .If you look at the class descritption they have posted eles are supposed to have great aoes compared to other classes.Also almost all our damaging skills in most weaponsets are aoe like d/d.
And keep in mind aoe is also warriors gs attacks,necro wells,engies nades and bombs,mesmers shatter etc etc.
In short dont expect a direct nerf to damage but most likely a change on how many targets some abilities can hit etc.
Relax!!

Matt H.6142:

By this logic then, the mesmer’s phase retreat should let you choose to make a clone and/or teleport, and the thief’s infiltrator’s arrow should let you blind and/or teleport.

And how is that bad?Lol we are talking about double functionality here..The stab animation ion the new magnetic grasp(which is clearly a nerf since adds delay and does kitten damage) is really justified for the new things you can pull of with this.
Dont be ungrateful :P

This thread is semi right(apart fro stupid :P )
Rtl used to curve a lot less when you had no gound below you.That meant you could make some pretty neat jumps and have crazy mobility in spvp maps.Then it got changed and while it STILL lets you travel through gaps it curves much faster and limits the jumps you can make.
But keep in mind that the new rtl also autotracks and homes to your enemy so just try to use your mind a bit before deciding to make a post in the official forums..

well i still for one think its great.I can use the immob on another target ,cc my target with earthquake and ring and then pull my self to the other target for escape before switching attunements.The activation doesnt have a range requirement ad you still leap just dont reach the target.Also the cd is 12 kittening seconds.You dont need to use the leap every time.Just the 2 sec immobilise is really good and you can set up your fire combo that way.
So the functionality has changed but imo is for the better.Just dont spam the leap when you dont need it and explore some more possibilities for the skill.

Also stop being so narrow minded and see the new possibilities.
Dagger just got a range immobilise skill.You can use it to set up a burning speed or other combos.You can use it to stop a bunker in spvp in coming back to his point without you having to leave the point so you can neutralise.You can use it to assist your friend without having to leave your current target…
Come on pls be trolling

Ivano.2604:

Very sweet of you “proud elementalist” to congratz on a new skill, while you all have missed the “new real” introduction into daggers leap and burning fire and even RTL

Do not want to spoil you the surprise but you will soon realize that the beloved D/D just received such an heavy nerf on its unique mobility and overall playstile that it is almost unplayable the way was initially (and rationally) introduced.

Just one question to this “the developer who introduced this change…..: YOU’RE A GENIUS,”
How a melee mage wearing light armor using daggers is supposed to actually “get in combat range” now that all its natural and intelligent skills who were introduced are now not viable? That is right, try now to RTL or any other previous skill designed to leap you forward and throw you in combat range, NOW that are all affected by any sort of countering skills in game!

I imagine you people who just wrote in here are unaware of what i am talking about, judging by your posts. Well, enjoy your new leap finisher until you will crush yourself against some invisible wall, or push back, or knock down, or even AOE slow, Weakness, stun and any other noobish spammable skill.

Trust me, the Dear D/D ele as it was designed with its unique fun and capabilities to break into zerg or even on a single target is over :/

But hey, hold on we still have Stability skill every 90 seconds lasting for 7! That s the time frame the old D/D can actually fit in

And since i am here, let me just say that the new “number 3” earth skill is one more NERF since the same ability has been split in 2 phases, and since both these phases are easily counterable now, it just lost its previous instant effectiveness.

Peace

wait what?
Wasnt burning speed always affect by slows and immobilises?In fact i sometimes welcome immobilised bunring speeds cause the trail does all the damage in 1 place.What the kitten are you talking about?

Also are you complaining about people being able to counter your mobility skills with cc?
Are you serious?

On the other hand the animation adds a delay that makes the immbolize not last long enough to land earthquake.If the enemy presses dogde repeadetly after he gets stuck he will get the dodge off of earthquake from what ive tested till now..
Maybe its a stealth nerf afterall ?? :P
Seriously though these changes are very nice cause they open new possibilities for the classes..i d love to see more in the future

I want to kiss the guy that proposed this change..its so good that it makes scepter fade in comparison even more.Also it seems there is no range req for the second effect but i dont know if this is intented.

Beating in a pug of 30sh ranks a 40 rank team(well they had the same guild tag )
Winning a game 499 -500
Losing a game at 500-500
Owning hard that thief in1vs1 who in previous match was instagibing me the moment i was in a team fight..Come on who that plays thief goes in a hot join game,picks a random target,waits until he burns his defencive cds ,burst him down and THEN call him noob..Like i had a chance you kittening stupid little kitten

hmm..i admit the thiefs subforum is a very weird place to be..
Reading this topic i learned that thief has not the highest mobility in game,that thief’s burst is perfectably telegraphed and dodgeable and also that thief is the squishiest in the game with no way of building tanky and surviving. My eye even caught a post where it proposed an increase in sustain and survivability with no drawbacks and that thief in wvw is not op at all..
L-O-L!!

Asomal.6453:

This would be freaking sweet! Thief gameplay would look more dynamic and mobile and wouldn’t be entirely overpower (they still have to manage initiative).

lol just lol…

Eles have GCD on their attunement swapping.Its 2 sec with 0 points in arcana and 1.25 with 30 points i beleive..Im just shocked at how many people decide to make new topics on the official forums for suggestions when they completely ignore basic things for the game they play.Also im not gonna explain how but the cd of weapon swapping is there for a balancing reason and asking them to remove it is well..asking for a complete redesign of weaponsets in a lot of cases

i dont think any serious fan of the thef class like how they are pigeonholed into this stupid backstab build and the rest of us dont like playing against it..so why does this stay in the game?What is the benefit of having this 1 shot build still in tourneys and even worse hot join.
Try play a hot join agaisnt 5 bs thieves and tell me if its wotrh your time.Just cause its countered in tourneys and you can manage it with team coordination doesnt mean it doesnt do big damage to the game..
And really i cant get how thief players wouldnt want the nerf of it (and of course buff of other playstyles)

While you worry about pvp at top level i would like anet to fix that stupid gimmick class that is the thief..and by fixing i mean nerfing the 1 shot combo and buffing everything else i dont care.
I brought a friend not long ago to try gw2 with me and we played a few hot join.There was a proper rank 40 thief who kept 1 shotting him over and over again.I told him about stunbreakers and tried to explain the mechanics..
But guess what the enemy team had another 3-4 thiefs that while being noobs they were critting for 5k hs on his low health..Tis is not a nice first impression
I guarantee you nobody will stick long enough to learn how to counter glory farming thiefs and god help him if 1 good enough decides to focus him whole game..

nerva.7940:

faceroll low skillcap build, getting nerfed, etc etc. not clicking.

lol stop hating..you know you can have some d/d fun too.Click create new char and make an ele:P
Then watch the zoose’s guide for maximum fun!

hmm just because its in anets microscope doenst mean it will get destroyed and thrown at the bin..Ele will always has superior healing.Its their idea of the class and every way you built you cant get rid of water attunement..So if you lose to agood ele now dont expect to magically win after the patch.
The next patch is not gonna fix your badness..

ok but we cant ask for nerf everything thats effective and works..i mean the attitude now is when a build rises up people demand immediate nerfs..People should be patient and wait imo.

RaynStargaze.6510:

Ayestes.1273:

I`m stupid incompetent and cant really use my brain at all so i just troll the forums

So heres my list for kitten like you who need other ppl to tell them in detail how to play

2 Eles

Scepter Dagger + valkyrie because only kitten play dagger dagger – dagger dagger doesnt work with 5 crit skill because it has too many hits in general (anyone with a brain couldve figured that out – you apparently couldnt)

Dragons tooth hits between 8K to 10K Fire grab around 6K (those are GUARANTEED! crits) + phoenix which is just plain awesome

Pls dont troll..With 60 percent crit damage and many damage multipliers and some might dragons tooth crits for 5 k tops ..unless you talk about a case of 25might /25 vuln stacks,frenzy etc..you also talk about the most telegraphed burst in the game.
Also 2 of the class with good synergy can do carzy stuff.Its just that ele can do almost anything that makes 2 eles seem strong to you.At least use the actual numbers..
And why are everyone so offencive lately..So much hate in the pvp community of this game!

yandere.9176:

It is a PvE event garanted, but this picture sums up, why GW2 isn’t fun to watch and therefor will never be a e-sport unless they change something about the particle effects
http://i.imgur.com/fm9ZE.jpg

lol this says nothing ..pretty much every game where you stuck 100s of players in the screen doing their kitten ends up like that.What do 5vs5 pvp games have to do with this??

Whats the purpose of this topic.Do you feel good for quitting gw2 and focusing on lol when you look at these numbers and want us to bow before you for making the right choice??I dont get it!
Imo lol’s gameplay is boring and gw2 has more potential with fights going on all the time interesting turns and a lot of skill relatively to mobas..i dont care much why you disagree but nonetheless id like you to be more specific!
Why did you not only quit but also completely gave up hope of this becoming an esport ??

nerva.7940:

doesnt matter, wait for nerf. let them enjoy it for a few more weeks.

omg cant you stop whining.They said they will tone down aoe not that they will destroy necros,eles,engies and whatever counters you or you hate and then ascend you into god
..My god this topic is stupid.
Tip:If you really think they will adjust aoe by just nerfing then you are mistaken.Many single target skills should be buffed or major weaponsets for many classes will became obsolete.Staff ele for the matter is already extinct in spvp..

nerva.7940:

Khenzy.9348:

As a Dagger/Dagger bunker elementalist player I see the nerfs coming a mile away, I’ve played every single profession extensively so far, and this is the most broken and overpowered combination my hands had the pleasure to play (I’m still currently playing it), no other spec in the game (outside Thieve’s Shadow Refuge utility skill, nerf this already) allows for so many mistakes and still keeps fighting like nothing happened, you just have to have water and air off CD. As an example, switch to water (2k+ heal, condi remove), dodge in water with evasive arcana (2k+ heal, condi remove) and Cleansing Wave (2k+ heal, condi remove), all the while never touching the 6, which allows the healing signet to never be on CD for even more sustainability.
I don’t have any kind of “nerphobia” like 99,999% of you (that’s maybe ‘couse I play many professions) so I welcome the nerfs to make things more fair to everyone else and to have a more healthly balanced game for us all.
Also, I expect some nerfs for my Mesmer’s Mind Wrack shatter damage multipliers (maybe changing the trait) and on the innate survivability invulnerabilities and stealth offer in general, but some buffs for a power based Ranger (ex. Longbow, Greatsword viability) among other professions in need of help.

well said sir. as someone who’s been doing tpvp since bwe1, i welcome the change and i think it has been very well thought out.

But thats pretty much a bunker build.Every bunker build ive seen has stupid room for errors..Just cause you dont see tank mesmer or thief cause of the pvp format that doesnt mean that if they were to spec that way they wouldnt be impossible to kill.If you really dont want bunker any more or want them toned down just nerf the amulets.
I strongly beleive you can make much more ridicoulusly easy to play and not die builds with other classes..they just suck in conquest.
My point is that if they were to nerf healing across the board hard enough to make surviving as an ele bunker1vs1 or 2vs1(against balanced) challenging for good players
then it would totally kitten up all eles build that have ever been made.These things are really scary to mess up with.

NevirSayDie.6235:

kostbabis.8791:

But engies already have better mobility than many classes.Stupidly easy perma swiftness and a mobility skill that is better vertically than rtl in rifle.Necro would be more appropriate.

“Easy” swiftness =/= good mobility. Also, rifle 5 doesn’t really do vertical.

Sorry, people seem to think that ever since they first saw an engi in PvP last week they’re OP so I tend to overreact to things

What i meant was that it has an edge when it comes on closing gaps that invlove passing through non land..for example rtl has been changing from beta and curves immediately when you dont have land on your feet while the rifle 5 still goes in a straigth line making some pretty cool stuff you can do in some maps and also can be aimed at higher ground.
Also mobility wise engies are better than many classes ,you cant argue that.
I never said they are top mobility dogs though:P

But engies already have better mobility than many classes.Stupidly easy perma swiftness and a mobility skill that is better vertically than rtl in rifle.Necro would be more appropriate.
But you cant really put skills that affect 1 person in the same basket with skills that work for the benefit of whole groups.They could give skills that are single person use portals and that would still free people from having to use mesm.They could also tone down tw or make portal stronger and make it elite.Then they could buff all the underused builds..The point is that you generally should not be afraid to chose a good player instead of a mediocre mesm for 5th spot just because you benefit s much from 2 skills..
Then again having more classes with portal like skills would be so weird when you actually play

jportell.2197:

How do you think mesmers feel about us having the portal mechanic given to other classes… And seriously if Ele’s or thieves get portal type skills I am going to scream.

ok if you give me portal i ll accept rtl range reduction!
Deal ? :P Besides you are not talking about giving “rtl” to other classes.
You are actually talking about “removing” it from the ele.Big difference here.

99% of ele hardcore fans would prefer to lose every healing they have instead of any nerf to rtl in range,cd or even worse having it to require target(i mean wtf :O).Nerfs are good and fine whne they are needed but really rtl??Dont touch this kitten or i ll come and hunt you down!
I mean its like waking up one day and saying i ll remove shortbow 5 from thieves..
You must really hate the class to do that

omg that d/d ele build has become an urban legend!
Unlimited sustain,bunker defence, infinite knockdowns/backs and i even hear about perma chill :P
But really i love fighting eles even if they are a kitten to die due to everyone picking water/arcane traits.I also love fighting against warriors and basically every class that DOESNT do damage continuously.Dodging the hard hitters is super fun in comparison to fighting for example a shortbow ranger that goes pew pew on you.

Any news on this? Apparently im in this crappy situation too cause i was so excited when making an account that i failed to notice it wouldnt be just a simple username to login!
Now im stuck with this crap..

hmm i thought seeing low ranks in hot join means theres new blood.
I know that pvp is dying and stuff and i agree but wouldnt it be more concerning if there were no low ranked people???

there is no perma chill build thats being used at the moment..my god people ask for nerfs before they even study what they are facing!
At least when i call for mesmer nerfs i have done my homework :P

dont even try man..they are die hard mesmer fans and they cant get into their head the difference.Portal is not the unique mechanic of mesmer.Clones and the shatter effects are!!
Also lol at the guys agreeing with that stupid comment that compared attunement swapping and deathshroud with portal..Isnt the difference a bit..obvious?