Please read all of my posts completely before trying to counter them as I’m now having to repeat myself a second time.
As far as yo saying that I should supply evidence; No. I don’t think you understand how these things work. You cannot make a claim and the require all those who question it to provide evidence whether it’s true or false. That burden is on you.
Where’s the evidence that the dev acted unfairly? You guys had made that claim that Dolan was treated unfairly yet there was no evidence. The burden shouldn’t be on me to substantiate whether your claims are true or false. That’s solely on your side which have this far failed to do so.
Why? He was banned for exploiting the dungeon paths so he could sell them. Or at least that’s what I gathered from all of the supposed evidence people posted. There’s more to it than he just simply whispered a dev.
Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used.
Er no, that was not the only change. You’ve just been told about other changes: can no longer die on the buttons as you’ll get moved off them when you do, plus adding even more respawning dredge to the bomb run.
It’s not helpful to be posting l2play comments when you’re not informed yourself.
Perhaps you should be more informed. Those changes occurred during the Fractured living story.
Then why did you say the only change was the exploit one?
Fractured update brought the majority of the changes. I stopped playing fractals after the fractured living story completed. The only change since then was the recent one with the exploit fixed. I do remember playing many times with the new dredge at the beginning.
But Ayrilana, so far I’ve seen you post in every dredge thread here. Are you perhaps an undercover dev? It’s pretty obvious to me, since the vast majority of the players posting here (and some I know to be very experienced fractal runners) acknowledge the ‘problems’ concerning this fractal, that here is something wrong with this fractal. Yet you are one of the few that are defending it – nothing wrong with that. There are possibly lots of ways to do it slightly faster, but that doesn’t take away the fact that if you compare this fractal to the other it’s WAY too long and simply NOT fun.
The average time to finish the first (usually swamp) fractal is 10-15 min, 2nd is mostly 20-25, and third (except dredge, and cliff which will take about 30) is also pretty doable in 20-25. The bosses are 10-15. (these times are based on an experienced group running level 49.)
Now you look me in the eye and tell me, that running a dredge on level 49 which takes AT LEAST 60 minutes is completely within proportion if you look at the rewards.
I defend the fractal because I hate it when stuff gets nerfed. I personally find nothing wrong with the fractal except for the dredge car which is pretty much 10 minutes of auto attacking.
The only issues that I see continually brought is the cage room at the beginning and the bomb path. I see people who still think they should be able to stand on the panel and people to withstand the dredge attacks. People also expect to be ale to dash at the door and have all of the bombs go off.
People rely so much on online guides that any sense of learning, adapting, and finding new strategies is lost. There are mechanics that I have mentioned numerous times, and have even linked a video on a group using, that makes things a lot easier.
I will not support nerfing something because people choose to do it in a way that makes it more difficult and time consuming.
Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used.
Er no, that was not the only change. You’ve just been told about other changes: can no longer die on the buttons as you’ll get moved off them when you do, plus adding even more respawning dredge to the bomb run.
It’s not helpful to be posting l2play comments when you’re not informed yourself.
Perhaps you should be more informed. Those changes occurred during the Fractured living story.
There’s already like three threads about dredge in this forum within the first few pages. There’s even one on the first page. Do we really need another one on the exact same topic?
Correction: There are two threads on the first page.
You are right in saying that there are lots of threads concerning this topic.
Basically it mostly revolves around dredge and rewards.
Given that there are so many threads concerning these topics, one wonders why Anet is not doing anything at all. At least they could reply and share their view on fractals. I don’t think that they want to do so, but it seems that they are emphatically driving people away from fractals.
As I am exclusively pugging via the lfg tool, I do find it getting harder and harder to get a group for 40+ fractals. Even getting people for 30+ is not as easy as it used to be.
On a side note: For pugging it might just take too much time to do 4 fracs to attract people. I wonder if a reduction to three fractals would revitalize the community. Then again… maybe it is just the somewhot toxic pugging climate for fractals that drives people away…
Yeah the rewards is pretty much why I stopped playing it.
I just watched the livestream for Fractured and I don’t think they were prepared to present. In the beginning they stated the tiers the fractals were all on with the overlap and then they contradicted themselves about halfway through stating that you couldn’t get Cliffside and Dredge together. I just think it’s simply that they didn’t know enough about the update. They even stated that the meta reward would be materials that nobody already had a ton of and it turns out that they were wrong.
Since Fractured. I haven’t really touched it since and the only change since then was fixing the exploit which I never used. Watch Obal’s video if you want to see how to do it. I haven’t seen his video recently but I believe he’s a zerker guardian on it doing the kiting. Kiting is not that difficult to do.
Why are you doing groups with people at high level fractals that do not know what they’re doing? I’d assume by that level that they would have a clue. I haven’t done fractals in quite some time but I don’t remember it being that bad the higher in level that you got. Of course things could have changed and terrible players got carried to the higher levels.
Yeah, it could be that they were. They could have very well changed their minds too. I’ll have to watch that livestream and hear what they claimed would happen. The thread I saw with the dev posts was from Anthony Cordon.
They never stated that they were going to fix the length. It was only as an option along with an option with the fractals in tiers. Guess which one they went with?
For what it’s worth, they did say we wouldn’t get Dredge and Cliffside in the same run anymore.
Not quite. They never specifically stated Cliffside unless they did in another thread that I’m unaware of.
Bump This up to the top please. In all seriousness though, they aren’t “ready”. They need polish. The Dredge Fractal needs its length fixed to be more in line with the other ones like was said was going to happen and was admitted to have a length issue.
They never stated that they were going to fix the length. It was only as an option along with an option with the fractals in tiers. Guess which one they went with?
There’s already like three threads about dredge in this forum within the first few pages. There’s even one on the first page. Do we really need another one on the exact same topic?
Correction: There are two threads on the first page.
Is using control skills (guardian GS#5 or mesmer focus #4) to group up mobs and then cleave them with typical attacks while supporting your team with various buffs something bad?
I’ll go ahead and tell you now that advocating for fair treatment of necros is good way to get yourself banned on these forums. That being said, I think stability itself needs to be removed from the game completely. It’s a crutch for lazy players and isn’t fairly or evenly distributed enough to all classes to warrant its use. All we should have are stun breaks. I’ve said this a thousand times, and I’ll say it a thousand more; immunities of any kind that require no more skill than to smash a single button should never be implemented. They do nothing more than create imbalance and lend to exploits, favoritism of classes, and sloppy/lazy gameplay. Oh and whoever said engis dont have reliable stability, you might want to read over engi skills and traits again.
With that said, the following need to be removed as well since they’re not evenly distributed between classes.
Fear/Terror
Stealth
Blink
Signets with 25% run speed
Knockdown skills
Daze skills
Invulnerable skills
There’s probably plenty more by just going with your criteria.
No idea what your problem is there OP. You start with a 20 space backpack and 4 bag slots. I’m running 15 slot bags in them right now (I’m too cheap to buy the 18 or 20 slot ones) for a total of 80. I always do a quick stop at any vendor to sell junk and a quick “send to collections” empties any mats to the bank. That leaves items which you can salvage into mats, sell them to a vendor or unlock renown heart giver or press O to bring up the Trading Post to sell there.
My usual run includes wolfmaster (or two), maw, champ svanir, the wurm trilogy and mat gathering. Unless you have the salvage o’matic you are going to need to stop by a vendor to buy salvage kits considering all the items that drop.
If you do sPvP, the 18 bags are about a gold from the vendor in the mists.
- The cage is too hard without having a fully coordinated group with exactly the right stats and approach. (And even with I’d like to see the devs run this without fail)
You don’t need a full coordinated group. Just clear one side and have someone kite the rest.
— Especially the bomb run is poorly done. (Endless mobs)
Only 5 of the dredge spawn infinitely. The bomb run is not poorly done. It’s just that people fail to learn the mechanic and instead choose the “easier” way and rush the door with bombs or some variation of that.
There’s nothing wrong with it so no need to be fixed. If you want to do a fractal/dungeon without stacking then form your own group. Don’t force players to play how you feel they should play. Stacking is a legitimate technique and does not break any rules.
Well I’m basing everything on his actual post in this thread rather than the article as I know the majority of people will not read it. In his post he stated that if the dredge fractal will take 69 min or more, then you should reset. Many players will argue that it will take longer than that.
I’m personally against the notion of resetting hoping to get a better fractal. The risk of getting dredge again is a bit high to be worth doing just to save yourself an extra 10-20 minutes (based on the average time people who are complains says it takes them).
I’m also choosing to completely avoid the formulas and anything that complex as I know better based in what I had to deal with explaining the probability of a certain fractal coming up in a previous thread. The validity of the calculations/formulas are also not important in the sense that it’s not the central point in my argument.
Maybe my argument ironically got lost as I’ve been trying to keep things simple and understandable.
I’m not sure what your point is. The conclusions of the calculation is that it’s never best to re-roll, because on average it will take longer. Everything you bring up is calculated by the paper and contributes to re-roll length.
I forgot to mention that players have a finite amount of time to play. If they rolled and got dredge again, more time was just wasted. I do agree that it could be quicker assuming you don’t get dredge again. The level of fractal you’re doing also matter as lower levels can simply be face rolled. Your party make up, skill, and synergy also has an impact which can’t easily be quantifiable.
If a group takes over an hour to do the fractal, I seriously question what it is exactly that they’re doing to make it take that long. I’m pretty sure DnT and rT can do it in about 30 minutes (or less) and I don’t see why the average pug can’t do it in 45 min.
So you can see why most players should not restart fractals. :P
also, those calculations DO take into account the chance of getting dredge again (I didn’t make these calculations). “Thus there is a one in five chance that dredge has a one in four chance of arising and a four in five chance that dredge has a one in five chance of arising = [you get dredge 21 times out of 100 runs]”
Yes but people still have a finite amount of time to play. Not many would want to risk getting dredge again even if the probability is 21%. That’s assuming the calculations are correct which i haven’t really looked at. The calculations are based on results over the ling run so you could very well get dredge back to back sometimes. Also, there’s the chance to roll again when you could get Cliffside as your second fractal along with dredge.
Yeah. I wanted to make that distinction. However, they’re already working on a way to see previous living story elements. It would either be a summary like for the personal story or hopefully an item that let’s you re-watch cutscenes. They already have an item that does just that for one particular cutscene.
I mean, Fractals is about going back in time. Why can’t I do it for past LS?
LS can be added to Fractals, or a time machine dungeon/gooba gaba gaga or whatever. I want it to be Fractals so it can be simple, instead of 800 types of instanced game modes.
For season 2 of LS, I expect it to be replayable in some way, instanced is something I prefer.
Fractals is not going back in time. Fractals is not a time machine.
Plus, without tight organization and people listening on TeamSpeak, they can’t hear my lovely voice and wonderous singing.
“Long time ago me and my brother Kyle here,
we was hitchhikin’ down a long and lonesome road.
All of a sudden, there shined a shiny demon… in the middle… of the road”
We (TTS et al) just had Cobalt again make a run for the water, noone was over in that direction, everyone was behind him. Boom, invulnerable. If they wanted to “fix” this issue, why not simply restrict it’s pathing to within the event circle? Very disappointed in this band aid “fix”. Kudoes to Attuned for having the luck to not have this happen.
You guys were kind of all over the place and there were people who were on the other side of the wurm. This is assuming the videos posted by someone else is from your runs. The wurm then targeted one of them and did its dash. Stick to the SE part by the wall.
It’s the same at the same difficulty level as it was before. The only thing that was changed is that now the exploiters actually have to do the simple mechanics of the gates/floor panels instead of bypass them completely to get to the final cage. For those that do it the correct way, they would not notice anything different.
‘simple mechanics’. Are we talking about fractal 49/50? Cause those are in no way ‘simple’.
The mechanics you use to progress in the dredge fractal are the same regardless of level. People have to stand on the floor plates to open the gates so you have to progress. This has not changed as you progress. Neither has clearing one side and kiting the other while people stand on the plates and use the console.
haa haaa….haa…haaa…..did you ever face lv 50 fractal dredge? somehow i doubt you did
Once again, I’m referring to the mechanics to do the plates/gates. I’m not referring to the dredge themselves.
well those mechanics in itself ARE simple, however constantly spawning beefy NPCs with perma protection hitting like a truck and spamming dazes all day while evading dmg kind of make it not so “simple”
Only very few spots have infinitely respawning dredge. The final cage at the beginning has them but they don’t respawn if you clear only one side. The bomb path has about 5 that at the stairs. Also, stability helps with not getting dazed.
While the dredge do get more difficult at later levels, it still doesn’t change the mechanics for the overall dungeon.
still doesn’t change the fact how hard is it to kill them and how hard they hit… no matter how you color it dredge map does take it too long, it usually involves too many deathes
i am against exploits but anet really needs to ask themself why ppl so desprately tried to glitch that map
Skilled, organized players can do it with little to no deaths in around 30 minutes. If you play with pugs that are skilled enough to know how to play their class (skill level), work as a team, and use proper mechanics specific for that fractal then you shouldn’t have issues. Most groups fail or take forever because they’re lacking at least one of those things.
However, I do agree that one part of the fractal is unnecessarily long and that would be the dredge car.
It’s the same at the same difficulty level as it was before. The only thing that was changed is that now the exploiters actually have to do the simple mechanics of the gates/floor panels instead of bypass them completely to get to the final cage. For those that do it the correct way, they would not notice anything different.
‘simple mechanics’. Are we talking about fractal 49/50? Cause those are in no way ‘simple’.
The mechanics you use to progress in the dredge fractal are the same regardless of level. People have to stand on the floor plates to open the gates so you have to progress. This has not changed as you progress. Neither has clearing one side and kiting the other while people stand on the plates and use the console.
haa haaa….haa…haaa…..did you ever face lv 50 fractal dredge? somehow i doubt you did
Once again, I’m referring to the mechanics to do the plates/gates. I’m not referring to the dredge themselves.
well those mechanics in itself ARE simple, however constantly spawning beefy NPCs with perma protection hitting like a truck and spamming dazes all day while evading dmg kind of make it not so “simple”
Only very few spots have infinitely respawning dredge. The final cage at the beginning has them but they don’t respawn if you clear only one side. The bomb path has about 5 that at the stairs. Also, stability helps with not getting dazed.
While the dredge do get more difficult at later levels, it still doesn’t change the mechanics for the overall dungeon.
It’s the same at the same difficulty level as it was before. The only thing that was changed is that now the exploiters actually have to do the simple mechanics of the gates/floor panels instead of bypass them completely to get to the final cage. For those that do it the correct way, they would not notice anything different.
‘simple mechanics’. Are we talking about fractal 49/50? Cause those are in no way ‘simple’.
The mechanics you use to progress in the dredge fractal are the same regardless of level. People have to stand on the floor plates to open the gates so you have to progress. This has not changed as you progress. Neither has clearing one side and kiting the other while people stand on the plates and use the console.
haa haaa….haa…haaa…..did you ever face lv 50 fractal dredge? somehow i doubt you did
Once again, I’m referring to the mechanics to do the plates/gates. I’m not referring to the dredge themselves.
It’s the same at the same difficulty level as it was before. The only thing that was changed is that now the exploiters actually have to do the simple mechanics of the gates/floor panels instead of bypass them completely to get to the final cage. For those that do it the correct way, they would not notice anything different.
‘simple mechanics’. Are we talking about fractal 49/50? Cause those are in no way ‘simple’.
The mechanics you use to progress in the dredge fractal are the same regardless of level. People have to stand on the floor plates to open the gates so you have to progress. This has not changed as you progress. Neither has clearing one side and kiting the other while people stand on the plates and use the console.
At igher levels Dredge fractal is so long compared to other fractals that it’s better to just exit and start fractals from the start that go troug all the pain of doing it.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8xrv7IFopOqVGRpQ1JmMnZuaWs/edit?pli=1
TLDR: It is faster to restart fractals than play dredge fractal only if dredge takes more than ~2.3 times the time of the other possibilities. If the others take you 30 min, dredge would need to take 69+ minutes to merit restarting the run.
You forgot the chance of getting dredge again.
No, that’s taken into account by the calculations above.
I forgot to mention that players have a finite amount of time to play. If they rolled and got dredge again, more time was just wasted. I do agree that it could be quicker assuming you don’t get dredge again. The level of fractal you’re doing also matter as lower levels can simply be face rolled. Your party make up, skill, and synergy also has an impact which can’t easily be quantifiable.
If a group takes over an hour to do the fractal, I seriously question what it is exactly that they’re doing to make it take that long. I’m pretty sure DnT and rT can do it in about 30 minutes (or less) and I don’t see why the average pug can’t do it in 45 min.
At igher levels Dredge fractal is so long compared to other fractals that it’s better to just exit and start fractals from the start that go troug all the pain of doing it.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8xrv7IFopOqVGRpQ1JmMnZuaWs/edit?pli=1
TLDR: It is faster to restart fractals than play dredge fractal only if dredge takes more than ~2.3 times the time of the other possibilities. If the others take you 30 min, dredge would need to take 69+ minutes to merit restarting the run.
It’s like some people can’t do it without exploiting. …
It’s just disproportionately long compared to other fractals. It is literally the only fractal that is hated. All the others are fair enough.
But who decided to make dredge the most annoying enemy ever. Leave the fractals as is, but remove the endless spawning of them in certain spots, tone down the stupid protection they have, and let us blind them!
^ Most logical conclusion right here. Especially, “It’s just disproportionately long compared to other fractals. It is literally the only fractal that is hated. All the others are fair enough.”
Actually had a guild mate warp through the bottom of the cage room. They didn’t use to knock you off of the plates on the floor, now when you die the plate doesn’t stay down. That would be fine to me and mechanically sound if ArenaNet didn’t explicitly state that they were fixing the fractal and toning down the length of it. Not only did they make it longer, they made it more annoying and have said nary a word about it. It’s super frustrating and it needs to be addressed on the forums and it needs to be fixed in game even more.
Except that they didn’t state that they would. The said they were looking into a couple of options and reducing the length was one of them. The tiered system we see now was the other.
We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.
They call it UNNECESSARILY LONG specifically and then they added more dredge to it and have have left ZERO comments as to why it went unchanged. They admitted its length isn’t uniform to the rest of the fractals and they made it longer. I can’t tell if I am more mad that it was made longer or that ArenaNet told us they were shortening it and then didn’t and then didn’t say anything.
Perhaps you should read what the dev said again. He didn’t say that they were going to shorten the fractal.
It’s like some people can’t do it without exploiting. …
It’s just disproportionately long compared to other fractals. It is literally the only fractal that is hated. All the others are fair enough.
But who decided to make dredge the most annoying enemy ever. Leave the fractals as is, but remove the endless spawning of them in certain spots, tone down the stupid protection they have, and let us blind them!
^ Most logical conclusion right here. Especially, “It’s just disproportionately long compared to other fractals. It is literally the only fractal that is hated. All the others are fair enough.”
Actually had a guild mate warp through the bottom of the cage room. They didn’t use to knock you off of the plates on the floor, now when you die the plate doesn’t stay down. That would be fine to me and mechanically sound if ArenaNet didn’t explicitly state that they were fixing the fractal and toning down the length of it. Not only did they make it longer, they made it more annoying and have said nary a word about it. It’s super frustrating and it needs to be addressed on the forums and it needs to be fixed in game even more.
Except that they didn’t state that they would. The said they were looking into a couple of options and reducing the length was one of them. The tiered system we see now was the other.
We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.
EotM and the old WvW maps are equally the same when it comes to PvE elements. All of them are pretty much PvE maps with PvP objectives thrown in to put players against each other.
Taking camps, towers, keeps, castles, and EotM special objectives are against NPC’s. You don’t take a tower by wiping out all of the players in it. You have to kill the veteran/champ NPC to get the circle to claim it. The only PvP element are the players against each other and a point to holding assets due to a scoreboard.
It’s the same at the same difficulty level as it was before. The only thing that was changed is that now the exploiters actually have to do the simple mechanics of the gates/floor panels instead of bypass them completely to get to the final cage. For those that do it the correct way, they would not notice anything different.
“If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.”
Perhaps you should read the entire article instead of just the bolded text. Context… context is everything.
I did.
Did you?
Context is everything.
Mixed you up with someone else that had posted which is why I assumed you hadn’t read the article. I apologize for the confusion.
It’s pretty obvious to me, since the vast majority of the players posting here (and some I know to be very experienced fractal runners) acknowledge the ‘problems’ concerning this fractal, that here is something wrong with this fractal. Yet you are one of the few that are defending it – nothing wrong with that. There are possibly lots of ways to do it slightly faster, but that doesn’t take away the fact that if you compare this fractal to the other it’s WAY too long and simply NOT fun.