(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Map completing in VB and Auric basin seems to be going just fine, I see lots of trains there all the time. I think Tangled Depths definetely has some issues that are not just related to HP’s being champs (which can be ok, depending on the situation) but many players are unable to navigate the map, making it difficult to get people to group up. On top of that some of the HP’s in TD are already the most dangerous in the game by themselves.
I got map completion there on my main ages ago but I have recently decided to fully map HoT on all my chars. TD is definetely being the biggest problem, even DS map completion is easier despite requiring the meta. Simply because people will come for the meta, TD hp trains are more scarce. I think 2-3 players per HP should be a good thing to aim at. The more remote ones should just be veterans in my opinion, I don’t know what the metrics tells ArenaNet but I’m sure that my own observation might not be that far from the truth. (P.S. I personally do love the map design).
You can do all HP’s in HoT with 2-3 players already. I’ve seen it done with the one mentioned by the OP but with the AoE field, it relies on the players’ skill level with that low of a number. Although, I do wonder how a viper reaper would fair against it if they could keep their minions up.
I’ve done with 3 that went pretty easily and I’ve done it with 3 and a zerg that went pretty horribly. An important thing with this is to not backpedal too much or at all is that you can easily cause the boss to reset and also because it will aggro extra mobs. The extra mobs is also a problem when people decide to “help” and doesn’t bother to pay attention to what they are dragging n.
Yeah. The main reason I see people dying is because of her AoE field that covers a wide area. One of the reasons why I was thinking of having a reaper with minions, aside from their bleeds, would be so that they would hold aggro assuming they can survive the AoE field. This would keep it off of others so they could range her.
Map completing in VB and Auric basin seems to be going just fine, I see lots of trains there all the time. I think Tangled Depths definetely has some issues that are not just related to HP’s being champs (which can be ok, depending on the situation) but many players are unable to navigate the map, making it difficult to get people to group up. On top of that some of the HP’s in TD are already the most dangerous in the game by themselves.
I got map completion there on my main ages ago but I have recently decided to fully map HoT on all my chars. TD is definetely being the biggest problem, even DS map completion is easier despite requiring the meta. Simply because people will come for the meta, TD hp trains are more scarce. I think 2-3 players per HP should be a good thing to aim at. The more remote ones should just be veterans in my opinion, I don’t know what the metrics tells ArenaNet but I’m sure that my own observation might not be that far from the truth. (P.S. I personally do love the map design).
You can do all HP’s in HoT with 2-3 players already. I’ve seen it done with the one mentioned by the OP but with the AoE field, it relies on the players’ skill level with that low of a number. Although, I do wonder how a viper reaper would fair against it if they could keep their minions up.
Non Raiders blocked from XP bar spirit shards
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Ayrilana.1396
A minor level-up reward is not an apt reward for raiding. It ought to be what it was before Hero Points, shards and the mastery system were invented, a minor use for the XP that the game throws around as part of the reward for playing any aspect of the game. Raiding already provides rewards that ought to be sufficient for what it entails. If raiding requires a Spirit Shard for XP reward to entice players to engage with it, then raiding is in serious trouble.
Honestly, the real issue isn’t raiding. Raiding only applies in HoT zones. Shards are gated in core, also, just not behind raids. The real issue is removing an XP reward that used to be generally available and then restoring it, but only for the completionist. Sending the message that XP is worthless unless you do a laundry list of tasks is not, imo, a good message for the health of the game.
Normally i’d agree with this, if it wasn’t for the fact that literally everything tosses out spirit shards now. Almost every bag has a shard, dalies have them etc…. Shards have become inflated currency almost in a worse state than gold was pre-hot.
I’d also like to point out that you can still get shards from doing task you want to do, just play core tyria stuff you enjoy and get more shards. Or just don’t give a flying penguin about “XP” as its useless to begin with outside of masteries.
XP is the base method of character progression for every RPG I can think of. Whether or not you “need” XP or “need” shards, if you aren’t getting them then that has a very negative connotation. It is very unsatisfying to see an XP reward flash on my screen for a mob I just killed but to know that I didn’t actually get that XP reward. And I will never get that XP reward – its not going into any bank or whatever. Since all my Mastery bars are full but I have no MP to spend, it is simply wasted.
And in most RPG’s there is a level cap where that progression stops. Character progression has never been infinite although there may be some games that are an exception but I can’t think of any.
~snip so post is below 5000 character threshold~
Again. You presented the argument that the achievement is bad design. The onus is on you to back up your claim with facts. Normally these would be industry standards. I’m not going to go through the effort to research what good design is as I’m not the one that initiated this.
Ohoni was wrong then. I said it can be done through normal course of play when doing events and dailies on that side of the map. You can run apples in between events or as you move from one section or another. I wasn’t referring to doing the achievement while also doing an event at the same time.
Players will complain about anything; yes. Whether or not it’s what you can thoughtful design wouldn’t change that. If it’s something that they don’t wants to do then they are going to complain regardless.
No, I am not arguing for bad design. I’m arguing against your opinions that you are treating as facts as to what bad design is.
I used five iterations because that was the number that you used in a previous post. Again, your opinions on what is good/bad design. I get that you want each indisibdual task to be rewarding and enjoyable. That doesn’t mean that something is badly designed if it lacks that.
The reward for doing the achievement is what you get at the end. This is what normally determines whether somebody does an achievement or not. The rewards for Hal are just find. You get several AP, a MP, and a title just for running apples to him 50 times. How many other achievements are like that?
All of what you have been passing off as good design have been reductions in grind. As I have said several times already, that’s really the complaint that you’re making or how it is coming across as. Let’s say that you only had to turn in a single Apple to complete the achievement. If I were to create a thread calling it bad design, would you side with me? Likely not.
What about collection events? Those must be badly designed too as each iteration of the item collected and turned in is exactly the same. After turning in the first item, no other items add any value to the player. Clearly this shouldn’t exist because it is bad design according to you. Just like the Hal achievement, you turn in a number of items in order to complete the objective and get the reward.
Rewards motivate players as well. Not everyone will do everything just for the enjoyment of it. How many players would do jumping puzzles just for fun with zero reward? I’m talking about if there was no chest at the end and they never awarded AP (on first completion) or were a part of dailies. Would you consider them well or poorly designed based on your opinions of what good/bad design is? Rewards themselves motivate players.
Perhaps, for non-HoT purchasers, it’s not offered in the Gem Store. Something like Living World Season Two episodes (that don’t show if already acquired).
Yeah. I probably should have hopped onto an alt first. They have them locked out with a message stating requires HoT.
So what happens if a player without HoT purchases the pass? Are they able to get onto the map? Are they prevented from purchasing the pass?
I just did the jumping puzzle. I am sure I walked right over all of the smokey checkpoints that I had to. (Especially since I did this without any mesmers to teleport me.) I noticed that nothing visible happened as I walked through them. At the end-chest, I got the same message.
I must say that I am less than pleased at this outcome, especially since I haven’t gotten the achievement either. I’d like to ask for a solution to the issue, as this is was not exactly joyful gaming.
Did you walk over the one at the very beginning as you run up the lava before entering the main area?
^ (I can’t help wondering if any other criticism of this game, of which there are many, is required to prove that it’s a valid criticism to some industry standard.)
Anyway, putting aside the tangent of whether it’s good/bad/lazy design, I present some ideas which would make an achievement like this more engaging for me personally. I’m not arguing whether it is or isn’t fun to a particular demographic, since that’s subjective, and I don’t expect anet to change Hal. This is some brain-storming for future fetch quests, using Hal as an example. I quite like fetch quests, and would like to see more diverse ones in the future.
1. Imagine the same quest, but now you only have to deliver one apple, and Hal is further up the cliff which is now a mini-jp. Maybe the apple has an limited shelf-life too, like the bomb in the Griffon run jp. Now you have more challenge, more variety and a good reason why Hal can’t get his own apple. He’s stuck up there.
2. Imagine the same quest, but Hal is suffering from a spell gone wrong and teleports randomly around the map every couple of minutes and you only need to get one apple to him in time to break the spell. Now you have teamwork, as players work together via chat to locate him, and challenge as you have to get to him in time.
3. Imagine the same quest, with the same number of apples, but the apples now cause various effects as you hold them. One might make you faster, one might turn you into a rabbit, one might turn you into a giant (like the Crystal Caverns jp does). Maybe Hal gives you a small map bonus according to the transformation, e.g. a bone if you’re a rabbit, a large scale if you’re a giant.
4. A pogo stick – when carrying an apple, the player rides a pogo stick, which has the horizontal speed of running open-world speed, but has a jump height that would allow access to Hal’s perch in about three bounces. The player would have to bounce across the map from the apple trees to Hal avoiding monsters as combat would bring you out of the pogo stick. Also, there would be no fall damage.
5. Additionally, on feeding Hal 50 apples, he could reveal the location of some secret stash of unbound magic, at a random location and only visible to the person who completed the achievement.
This would allow Hal to be repeatable, just like the new hearts. On the first completion, you get your cheevo and mp, but on successive repeats you get some minor bonus in karma or magic.
Those are definitely some alternative ways that they could have done that achievement.
I’ve been doing the JP daily. I can easily just leave my mesmer near the top and port people up. They can drop down and get the two close together and then get ported back up and get the rest. I can use squad markers to mark where to go for the others. Not saying that I will.
Well enough. The achievement exhibits no elements of good design:
- Engaging task
- Furthering story/lore which is essential to the RPG experience
- Variation
- It barely adheres to alternate variable reward schedules, and that only exists because it has multiple achievement steps with gradually increased spacing in between recognition.
With the absence of good, that only leaves bad. Maybe neutral or “necessary evil”, which are acceptable in small doses or after sufficient scenary changes.
If you’re arguing for those who love to zone out to running around and farming things, you do them a disservice by supporting content with a poor reward scheme. Those players could be farming somewhere farm more productive than wasting time feeding Hal the Ingrate.
Again. Those are your personal opinions on what you prefer an achievement to be. Opinions. Not facts. In a previous post you told me to look up basic design principles. Have you? All I see you referencing are your personal opinions on what you want and passing them off as those principles. What are the industry standards?
As far as your absence comment…
Would you believe the lack of innocence to mean that someone must be bad? The lack of one thing doesn’t mean it must be the opposite. It works both ways; however, several players came in here stating that it was “bad design” so it’s on them to support it with facts. Not a list of opinions on what someone prefers in their achievements.
A deliberately obtuse exaggeration. WvW achievements are gained in the normal course of play, while participating in the exact goals of WvW. Same with Fractal achievements. They are woven into the multi-faceted aspects of playing through the broader content.
Hal is a single, monotonous task repeated far more than it should have for its entertainment value.
It’s sad that comparing WvW/Fractal achievements even exists.
The Hal achievement can be obtained through the normal course of play as you do your dailies or simply doing events on that side of the map just like playing WvW and fractals normally. Or players can focus specifically on a particular achievement and grind it out.
Wrong.
A moving Hal would engage the players by encountering him in different locations. A moving Hal would get players to explore the zone more. A moving Hal would have given players a laugh as we find him in increasingly impossible locations while still carrying that godsbesotten flaming apple.
But he didn’t move. Players are even offering to help him move, mostly by shoving the lazy bum off a cliff and telling him to glide and get his own ruddy apples.And if you’re arguing for bad design just because the players not wanting to grind an unappealing task for an hour sounds like “entitlement” to you, at least be honest and say it directly. Don’t give carte blanche for blatant padding of monotony.
Also, third time ducking the main point, and once after it was explicitly asked.
What has been added by the extra 49 unnecessary iterations?
Players would still complain of the grind regardless. That’s what it comes down to: grind. Some people just don’t like it.
Again, I’m not arguing for bad design. I’m just arguing for you to prove that it actually is bad design without relying on your personal opinions on what you’re looking for in an achievement.
I didn’t answer the iteration question because it was unnecessary but I will. Why must a subjective value be added to each iteration? Let’s say that you only needed to turn in five apples. Would you be posting on here that the last four iterations were a waste and that it should be dropped down to 1? Doubtful.
The value comes from the reward. Is it worth returning 1 apple to him for a few AP, 1 MP, and a title? How about 5 times? 10 times? 50 times? If the rewards are not worth it to you for the effort needed then don’t do it. Just like how there are other things in the game with unique rewards that players have chosen not to do because it isn’t worth it to them. That in no way makes it “bad design”. If you disagree then link me the industry standards for what is “bad design”.
You have identified what you feel is bad design. What someone feels is bad design doesn’t mean that it is bad design.
And by that reckoning, what you feel about it doesn’t make it good design either.
It’s certainly lazy design, and I was one of those who said so earlier, and also one of those who suggested he could easily have moved around, allowing us to make use of all the wonderful travel options in EB. This isn’t bad design because it’s a fetch quest. As I pointed out, Simpson’kitten & Run had plenty of them and they were fantastic.
This is bad design because it’s obviously lazy. There’s no subtlety to it.
The legendary journeys were also a fetch quest but they were complex and made use of every facet of the game. This makes no uses of the map it’s in. Literally anything in its place could have had greater thematic, lore, storytelling, gameplay, enjoyability engagement value.What boggles me is why you keep defending this so much? There is literally no harm to suggesting that it needs improvement. You’ve probably finished this achievement already, as have I, but my impression of it was that it wasn’t hard, wasn’t challenging and was eminently boring. Is that the impression we want of the game?
That is true, that my opinion does translate to being a fact just as I have stated that others’ don’t as well. The reason I keep posting is because that some people are going beyond it just being their opinion and instead treating it as fact with the usage of “bad design” and now “lazy design”. It’s one thing to simply dislike something but it’s another to assume that there’s something inherently wrong with it.
Most telling is what you yourself wrote four days ago:
It takes about two hours to do. Not exactly fun but you’ll eventually “zone out” after a dozen or so when it becomes automated.
Not exactly fun…. you’ll eventually “zone out”….
Does that sound like good design?
EDIT: typo
As stated above, there’s a difference between something being “badly designed” and someone’s opinions about it. I personally didn’t find it the greatest of achievements like many others including the infinite ones during the holidays. However, my personal opinion has no bearing as to whether it is good or bad design.
I’m not going to “study basic design principles” when you haven’t established that it is bad design. Grind is not bad in MMO’s and actually intended. It’s one single achievement that isn’t required. “Bad design” is thrown about quite a lot and used as a phrase to gain support for the connotations that it brings.
Except I already have identified the bad design principles that have gone into that achievement. So have several other players. It’s not my fault some would choose to ignore evidence for the sake of being argumentative. Nor is it the first time I’ve seen positions laid out that way. So when the words “bad design” come out, you can bet there’s a reason. It’s subjective, of course, but there’s a reason.
It’s not grind for grind’s sake just to stalk rewards.
Actually, it is.
It’s a single mastery point and title that isn’t required for the meta. All of the other rewards that you can obtain from the release also do not hinge on the player completing this achievement.
The achievement doesn’t have to be done in one sitting. A player can casually turn in a few apples as they do their dailies and cclkplete it over a week or two. There are other ways they could have done that but that is the same for every single achievement in the game.
Again with the “but you don’t have to” trope. It’s lazy. The question that should have been asked was “How could this failed achievement been made more engaging?” Instead, the question that was asked in development was “How much of this monotony can we expect players to choke down without a revolt?” They miscalculated at 50.
And yet, the main question has been dodged at least twice.
What has been added by the extra 49 unnecessary iterations?
You have identified what you feel is bad design. What someone feels is bad design doesn’t mean that it is bad design. All it means is that it doesn’t work for what they prefer. That is all. Unless you can find a list of design principles taught by a credible in stylization as to what is bad design, all you’re going on is your biased opinion. Most things would be considered good design so unless you can present evidence to the contrary that are not based on personal opinions. Nothing will change that.
No. It is not grind for grind’s sake to stall rewards. It’s a single achievement that isn’t tied to any meta as being required. I guess the WvW achievements are bad design since they’re stalling the rewards. I guess the fractal weapon collection/achievement is bad design because it’s stalling the reward.
It being optional is very much a valid argument. It’s a standalone achievement for those that enjoy doing that type of content and will be rewarded with a MP and title to show for their effort. I seriously doubt it being more engaging would really have changed your position. If it were to have the player go to 50 different locations on the map for various reasons, you and the others would still be complaining. It comes down to simply that you don’t like the grind.
You can buy the episodes with in-game gold by converting it to gems. No real world money necessary.
The only content locked are the achievements, including any rewards tied to them, and the ability to start your own story instance. Players can join the story instances of those who have access.
So anything that is repetitive is bad design? Even in a genre that often requires it? This achievement is not different than other forms with the exception that it can be done solo. It’s still a single achievement that isn’t required. There are players that enjoy these type of activities. There are other players that do not.
Earlier in this threadStudy a few basic game design principles, and you’ll see why this is lazy, lousy execution.
I’m not here to do all your homework for you. Claiming “it’s not required” does not excuse bad design. And, other forumites have made suggestions on how this achievement could have been improved.
Someone else pointed out in another thread (in forum/reddit, I forget exactly where) that just because a “few people enjoy it” doesn’t mean it couldn’t be made more engaging and evoke more positive feedback from a larger population of players.Yes, MMOs survive by creating repetitive content. MMO developers cannot create content fast enough, so they rely on the replayability of their content to keep players engaged. But grind for grind’s sake, just to stall reward acquisition, is a cheap excuse to include it.
Also earlier in this threadIt adds nothing.
Hungry Hal adds nothing beyond its mastery point and some AP. Anything could have gone in its place. Map completion would have been a more worthy task for a mastery point and some AP. At least the currency grinds in HoT maps give a reason to interact with the broad expanses of the maps and participate with other players. Hungry Hal’s achievement bogs a player with a pointless hour of pathing the same cycle for no other reward. Are there any “Good Apples” still feeding poor, lazy(ily designed) Hal? I’d be surprised if that number exceeded zero.
I’m not going to “study basic design principles” when you haven’t established that it is bad design. Grind is not bad in MMO’s and actually intended. It’s one single achievement that isn’t required. “Bad design” is thrown about quite a lot and used as a phrase to gain support for the connotations that it brings.
Pretty much every suggestion to an alternative resulted in it being less of a grind which brings the issue that people have being that it is a grind. Welcome to MMO’s! I can make a list of a lot of achievements in this game and call them bad design simply because they involve grind. Fortunately, skipping this achievement if you do not like it will not cause you any harm. Now if it was required for the meta achievement, then you could potentially argue otherwise.
There will always be things that appeal only to a certain segment of the player population. I’m pretty sure that there are some players that do not like the infinite achievements that we see every Halloween and Wintersday. There are players that enjoy them and it keeps those activities active. None of those achievements are bad design. They’re just something made optionally for a segment of the player population that happens to enjoy them.
It’s not grind for grind’s sake just to stalk rewards. It’s a single mastery point and title that isn’t required for the meta. All of the other rewards that you can obtain from the release also do not hinge on the player completing this achievement.
The achievement doesn’t have to be done in one sitting. A player can casually turn in a few apples as they do their dailies and cclkplete it over a week or two. There are other ways they could have done that but that is the same for every single achievement in the game.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
I had map loading times of about 15-20 seconds. Roughly the last 5% took the longest. I heard they increased loading times for performance reasons or something.
This has changed since last Tuesday as I’m now back to getting 4-8 seconds map load times. I had the flickering screen too if that’s where it cuts out as if the game is going to show on the screen but then cuts back to the map load screen briefly. I’m not sure if this has happened since last Tuesday but maybe I just got used to it.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Many games have quests that are simply fetch quests. Are those bad design then?
Not-good game designs can still be used quite often. Either because the content is old (as with WoW) or because the designers needed a fast (some would say ‘lazy’) approach to generating content.
I hesitate to call fetch quests as a whole “bad” design, simply because they’re a staple of every RPG ever. But they’re not “good” design, either. They’re fairly passive, un-engaging tasks that exist to expend time and give the illusion of progress.Hal is actually bad design because of the repetitive nature of it. Doing it once might have been rewarding a clever/perceptive player for recognizing the apples and finding the NPC. But that’s where the novelty and reward end, until the roundabout task is repeated another 49 times.
If Hal’s dialog changed with each apple, perhaps that would have been sufficient intermediate reward for bringing him more, but all that happens is a little tick mark on the achievement tracker. It could have been an opportunity to expand on lore, but it wasn’t used that way.
If Hal had changed positions after each delivery, at least players would be going to different locations, possibly one iteration requiring to survive carrying the apple across the map to get to him. But that didn’t happen either.
If the achievement only required 10 deliveries, there probably wouldn’t be much grousing at all. Task repeated to the level of competence and no further. Instead, it takes a reasonable number and magnifies it fivefold, into the realm of pointless drone-work. Nor does adding on an extra 40-49 iterations add anything to the gaming experience. It adds nothing.A moving Hal would have at least gotten us exploring the zone and limited the iterations to a reasonable number.
A Hal that pined for various cooking recipes would have gotten us to use Chef recipes and the Trading Post, possibly for an extra petrified wood or unbound magic reward.
So anything that is repetitive is bad design? Even in a genre that often requires it? This achievement is not different than other forms with the exception that it can be done solo. It’s still a single achievement that isn’t required. There are players that enjoy these type of activities. There are other players that do not.
I think most people that say the SW puzzle is a breeze compared to Chalice of tears, have forgotten what SW was like before gliding. Specifically gathering golden coins before gliding. When first introduced, SW was just as difficult as Chalice of Tears, and when the next nightmare JP is introduced, we’ll all say Chalice of tears is the fun one.
I did the SW puzzle pretty quickly, worst part of it was the tunnel maze at the end. It really wasn’t that hard, just very long. It was also much more obvious where to go, and there was a buff to show you how many checkpoints you hit. Chalice of Tears is much less clear about what the real path is, and it would be pretty easy to overlook a checkpoint.
Assuming that small mistakes in the Chalice of Tears JP were not made, players shouldn’t be able to skip checkpoints. This is only because those checkpoints are required for the achievement and to open the chest at the end.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
We’ll know for sure when we see what their plan is on how players can acquire previous years’ back items.
As far as whether it is worth grinding, that is entirely up to players to decide for themselves.
- Do you want the functionality of being able to swap stats and not rely on swapping ascended back items?
- Do you like the skin?
- Do you want access to all new stat combos rather than craft a new back item?
- How much of your playtime, which you could spend elsewhere in the game, is the item worth to you?
These are just a few questions that one could ask themselves.
I really hate this achievement. Not only does it take 2-3 minutes per apple, running back and forth over and over again, but there’s not even enough apple trees to do it in one day, so you have to come back the next day, and the next. So so sooooooo grindy. I don’t want to feed the lazy bumb, I want to push him off the cliff?
Oh, that would be cool! Make an alternate achievement, where if you press f while you don’t have an apple, you get the chance to send him to the grave. I mean seriously man, I’ve got a couple gliders in my backpack, take one and go get your own apple your lazy bumb!
You can hop to another map instance. It takes about 4 instances to complete it. It may also work by swapping to another character but I didn’t do it that way.
It’s still way too grindy. Making something long, overly repeditive and tedius does not make it hard, just makes it annoying. Achievements like this are what people hate about MMOS, and only serve to incite player irritation. There’s just no need for so many apple runs.
Really no different than a lot of achievements that Anet creates. Wait until Halloween and Wintersday.
Thus, it’s worth highlighting that as a problem, not a feature. There isn’t even an economical reason to blame, as there would be for the Wintersday boozefest or candy corn. Bad design deserves to be exposed and shamed.
“I don’t like it” is not bad design.
Agreeing with bad design does not make it good design.
Study a few basic game design principles, and you’ll see why this is lazy, lousy execution.
Many games have quests that are simply fetch quests. Are those bad design then? Not everything in a game will everyone enjoy. This achievement isn’t mandatory for anything so players have the choice to skip it if it doesn’t appeal to them. People claiming bad design would have had more grounds had that not been the case.
I really hate this achievement. Not only does it take 2-3 minutes per apple, running back and forth over and over again, but there’s not even enough apple trees to do it in one day, so you have to come back the next day, and the next. So so sooooooo grindy. I don’t want to feed the lazy bumb, I want to push him off the cliff?
Oh, that would be cool! Make an alternate achievement, where if you press f while you don’t have an apple, you get the chance to send him to the grave. I mean seriously man, I’ve got a couple gliders in my backpack, take one and go get your own apple your lazy bumb!
You can hop to another map instance. It takes about 4 instances to complete it. It may also work by swapping to another character but I didn’t do it that way.
It’s still way too grindy. Making something long, overly repeditive and tedius does not make it hard, just makes it annoying. Achievements like this are what people hate about MMOS, and only serve to incite player irritation. There’s just no need for so many apple runs.
Really no different than a lot of achievements that Anet creates. Wait until Halloween and Wintersday.
Thus, it’s worth highlighting that as a problem, not a feature. There isn’t even an economical reason to blame, as there would be for the Wintersday boozefest or candy corn. Bad design deserves to be exposed and shamed.
“I don’t like it” is not bad design.
I don’t really understand the nostalgia for the old LA..
I always thought the old LA was quite and eyesore.. very ugly place to be..
In Gw1 LA was a real town.. in Gw2 it just looked like a shanty town of shipwrecks.. hardly fitting for a capital city..
Its because the people who read Sea of Sorrows know that Cobiah Marriner bought and rebuilt Lions Arch after Orr’s tidal waves demolished it. The base of the city was the many ships were washed astrand, thats why half the structures of the old LA was mainly made of ships and ship parts.
Also, the nostalgia comes from the fact that the people who know Cobiah Marriner’s story, know what he went through to make that Lions Arch, and how it was a symbol of freedom for all races. Before CM, Lions Arch was a deputy capital of Divinity’s Reach, which was being built after the destruction of LA to be the replacement of the human Capital.
So long story short; there was a lot of history in why and how the GW1 LA and GW2-old-LA came to be, all the while you can still find traces of the previous chapters. In the current form of LA all history of Cobiah and the Human Nation of Kryta has been dumped into the sea (literally) to make way for what was supposed to be a hub of trade but is now the most in-efficient trade-hub of all.
How many players who want the old LA have actually read that book though? It may be nostalgia for some who have read it but not all. The nostalgia likely taking place is simply because it is the first version of the town that they saw when they first started playing.
I was just now able to get in as an Asura.
I think that there could be hidden checkpoints that are required for progress but you can’t actually port to when you die. I can log out right before you normally would activate the first checkpoint. I log back in after the daily, go to the checkpoint, and no credit. I’m thinking that there’s another checkpoint somewhere in that lava tunnel you enter. If that’s true then perhaps there are others.
There is one on the skull on the left right before the lava fall that leads to the plane of the main caldera.
You’re right. I just verified that it was a checkpoint. I also noticed that we can’t get the checkpoints out of order so if we miss one then none of the others will work including opening the chest. So while the checkpoints do help, like the OP said, they can also hold a player back if one is missed.
I think that there could be hidden checkpoints that are required for progress but you can’t actually port to when you die. I can log out right before you normally would activate the first checkpoint. I log back in after the daily, go to the checkpoint, and no credit. I’m thinking that there’s another checkpoint somewhere in that lava tunnel you enter. If that’s true then perhaps there are others.
Seems to me a group of Mes guild mates could set up ports at each check point to the next check point. Maybe it is impossible to do so, but then again I would gladly make some sort of donation to the guild if they made it happen. Unless Anet has disabled a perfectly legitimate mesmer skill (which is a poor precedent to establish).
Or just pay a Mesmer to port people along as they do it. I did that for players with the AB JP when nobody else really had ley-line gliding.
One thing that I always wondered about would be if players against WvW/PvP could even tell the difference between NPC enemies with slightly improved AI vs other players. The complaint they have rides soley on them having to fight other players whereas if they were just NPC’s performing identically to players then they’d have no issues.
I’m pretty sure that PvE-only player complaints would go through the roof were ANet to produce single mobs that have high burst damage, insane sustain and extreme mobility, or mob groups that drop so much AoE that there is literally nowhere to go.
Which would then make them more legendary? At least they wouldn’t have to fight against other players even though they technically can already do that now.
What map breaking techniques? I’ve run it several times already without any issues and without having to rely on those.
Which vent is skipped because of an alternate path? This would probably be something to highlight to Anet to resolve.
Players will be able to get the wings but it will not be done through the existing achievements as that ends next week.
Source?
I already provided you the source.
One of the missions in GW1 showed that an alliance wouldn’t work.
Hmm what mission was that?
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assault_on_the_Stronghold
They would wipe each other out or at the very least you’d have a few remnants from one side.
One of the missions in GW1 showed that an alliance wouldn’t work.
The achievements have been available since July. If you’re all waiting until just now to do them then well…
Being able to get the backpack, and having to do something different to get the back pack are not the same thing. The post you quote gave direct quotes from a Dev blog saying that you’d be able to OBTAIN, or GET the backpack in the second year of PvP Leagues (which S5 would be the start of year 2), but through a different means.
Josh saying that the backpack is still obtainable does not change anything that the devs said previously.
To answer your question, no the year of Ascension achievements will not be available in S5, seeing as how it would be the start of year 2 achievements, but the backpack for S1 (the wings) will still be available.
We’re going in circles here, More speculation.
Look at this recent thread.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/sPvP-Season-5-2016/first
The OP says:
“I am working through all of the challenges, but due to the division cross restriction, I will not hit my goal until S5, if that is a thing, please tell me that is a thing, I would hate to think I wasted my effort.”
Then Josh (dev) just says:
“You’ll still be able to get the wings, even with the considerable league changes coming with Season 5.”
How does that look.
Josh is basically reassuring the guy saying don’t worry you’ll still be able to get them.
Now if Josh said something like ’you’ll still be able to get them in season 5 but it will be by different means’ Then that would of been different.
Can you see why there is confusion. Also wiki saying “may change” and the fact that there even is a Season 5 adds to the confusion, Is it going to just keep counting on, In a few years will there be Season 25? Why not Year 1 season 1-4 Year 2 Season 1-4 etc.
Would be awesome if a dev could clarify.
Read the links. Players will be able to get the wings but it will not be done through the existing achievements as that ends next week.
It seems like you posted this thread just to validate your own existing belief in what will happen and then disputed anyone that tries to help you that happens to go against that belief.
They can’t update the room as it’s not your own personal instance. It’s still part of the map and wouldn’t make much sense to update it.
Players had to do WvW to get their legendary weapons well before they were handed out like candy through achievement chests. Players can also technically complete the WvW reward track simply by killing NPC’s in camps, killing one of the three veteran creatures, or simply standing in a square every 5 minutes or so once they’ve maxed participation which is fairly painless to do.
One thing that I always wondered about would be if players against WvW/PvP could even tell the difference between NPC enemies with slightly improved AI vs other players. The complaint they have rides soley on them having to fight other players whereas if they were just NPC’s performing identically to players then they’d have no issues.
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Wish a dev would comment on this to clarify, All these comments on here while I appreciate them are all speculation. Devs haven’t said anything about whether or not the achievements will remain or be removed in season 5, That’s what i’m trying to find out.
It won’t. You have until the 3rd to get the current backpack otherwise you’ll have to wait until they reveal the other method to obtain it. The current league is call the Year of Ascension. A year only has four seasons. After this season, it’ll have been about a year.
The links provided have been pretty clear but just in case…
If you can’t/don’t get the legendary if a specific year then there will be another way to obtain that specific backpack. I can’t go into any details on that, but you WILL be able to get previous years backpacks in some way.
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From a simple Google search.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-leagues-and-sloth-attack-on-guild-chat-a-summary/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Stopped-dead-on-Wings/page/2#post6067744
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Why create a thread to ask a question and then dispute every response?
Grind =/ bad game design.
By definition, yes it does. If you’re grinding, it’s because someone has seriously kittened up. Now “repetition” is not always “grind,” it’s only grind if you aren’t enjoying it. But yes, if you’re doing something repeatedly beyond the point that you’re having fun, then it is bad design and they should fix it.
By your definition. Grind is very much a part of every MMO. If you have an issue with grind then you’re seriously playing the wrong genre. Not everyone will find everything enjoyable. People also happen to have vastly different thresholds.
Not everything in this game do all players enjoy. There are some things that certain players enjoy and other things that another group of players enjoy.
And again, that is fine, so long as the players who do enjoy it can do it, and the players who don’t can do something else instead, and NOT have to give up on specific rewards. If there are specific rewards that a player would miss by giving up on the activity, then “to each their own” no longer applies. And no, the game is by no means perfect on this, but that is reason to fix the other parts that are broken, not to excuse adding new broken elements.
Not everyone will find everything in the game enjoyable. There will be some things that players do not like. Some people do not like jumping puzzles. Should those then be removed because they’re “bad design”? After all, someone doesn’t like them and according to you that makes it bad design.
There are specific rewards with raids, WvW, PvP, and so on. Not everyone will enjoy all of them. Does that mean those are bad design too? No.
Well for me the complaint is more about making you get far in the jp and then leaving your progress in the jp to get the coin. That just furthers the frustration.
The two close together can be gotten after you have completed the JP. One of them can be gotten right after you reach the 3rd checkpoint. The other can be glided to from the 3rd checkpoint if you miss it while doing the JP.
Why exactly is it bad game design?
I explained that above.
Grind =/ bad game design.
Then don’t do it. Or would you prefer that Anet puts it locked behind some ultra challenging thing that relies on a player’s personal skill?
It doesn’t have to require great skill, it just has to involve player engagement. It needs to be something that players actively enjoy doing, and so far I haven’t heard anyone say that they actually really ENJOY doing this one, just that they don’t mind it so much, or that it’s a better alternative to skill challenges that they cannot complete. Neither of these mean that it’s good content.
Good content is content people ENJOY DOING, content that makes them happy as they do it. It doesn’t need to require any great skill, it can be something that anyone can do, but it needs to keep them engaged at all times.
When designing content, you should either make it something that can be completed in relatively few repetitions, or something that is fun enough that you’d want to keep doing it over and over, without any cumulative reward forcing you to do so.
How many people have delivered at least five apples to Hal AFTER completing the achievement? If the answer is zero, then that is not an activity that players should be forced to do more than five times to acquire a reward.
Not everything in this game do all players enjoy. There are some things that certain players enjoy and other things that another group of players enjoy.
If story instances are balanced around the player doing most of the damage, then having additional players helping you in s story has to be banned.
You seem to have a problem with an NPC helping, but no problem with other players helping.
Whats the differance?If you can’t tell the difference between a fictional character and a friend, then MMOs might not be the best type of game for you. :/
~EW
It seems you aren’t understanding his point: he is responding to someone saying that if the NPCs provided real help the instances would be too easy. Yet we can make the instance easier by grouping with other players. If Anet didn’t want the instances to be easier, they wouldn’t allow us to play them in a group.
Why not just nerf everything to have the HP of an ambient then? Buffing the NPC’s would give those that want to play solo no challenge. If people want to do the story instances easily then they can just group up with other players. This way everyone has a choice.
First, resorting to extremes like “nerf everything to have the HP of an ambient” makes taking your post seriously very difficult.
I, and many of the players who find these instances too difficult DO play solo. And many people can’t “just group up”. Some people play at off hours or have other reasons why they can’t group.
The story that is the game’s foundation should be accessible to every player. As it is right now, I have not finished a single storyline in this whole game because the fights are too difficult. Is that fair for a player who has been playing for 4 years?
If Anet wants to provide more challenging content, they can provide content besides the main story.
It would be the same impact if the NPC’s were allowed to be more effective without buffing the enemies in the instances to compensate. A player would be able to plow through them solo as if they were ambients.
Then if there are players that find these instances too difficult, they can all team up. You all have that option. A group is not that difficult to get even during off hours. You don’t even need a full group. There’s absolutely no reason to nerf the instances so that everyone else that wants some form of a challenge to lose that. Difficulty should not be set to the lowest denominator.
The story is accessible to every player. It can be completed in greens using terrible builds. Having everything catered around those those that have a very low skill level will just take away from everyone else in the game. If someone truly cannot beat an instance, then they can team up with others.
I’m not against NPC’s being given the ability to contribute more so long as the enemies are made more difficult to compensate.
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It takes about two hours to do. Not exactly fun but you’ll eventually “zone out” after a dozen or so when it becomes automated.
Like doing a 2 hour race in gran turismo. If zoning out if part of it, then I feel it’s kind of a failed achievement, as your not really achieving anything. Other than becoming a zombie.
Well the achievement is completely optional. You don’t need it to complete the meta.
You can do the meta with out doing that one, only need 23 out of the 26, but it is a valid complaint. Spending 2 hours doing one thing that gives you nothing but a title is a little in my book.
I have no intention of do any thing in any game that is that.mind numbing.
I hope ANet sees this as feed back, not a well they don’t have to do it.
But if you want to ride to there defence when its not needed, carry on.
Then don’t do it. Or would you prefer that Anet puts it locked behind some ultra challenging thing that relies on a player’s personal skill? I’m pretty sure if there wasn’t a title or MP behind it that this thread would not exist. Some players wanted the shiny, didn’t like how they had to earn it, and came here to complain about it in hopes that the amount gets nerfed. Not everything in a game with be enjoyable by everyone.
It takes about two hours to do. Not exactly fun but you’ll eventually “zone out” after a dozen or so when it becomes automated.
Like doing a 2 hour race in gran turismo. If zoning out if part of it, then I feel it’s kind of a failed achievement, as your not really achieving anything. Other than becoming a zombie.
Well the achievement is completely optional. You don’t need it to complete the meta.
If story instances are balanced around the player doing most of the damage, then having additional players helping you in s story has to be banned.
You seem to have a problem with an NPC helping, but no problem with other players helping.
Whats the differance?If you can’t tell the difference between a fictional character and a friend, then MMOs might not be the best type of game for you. :/
~EW
It seems you aren’t understanding his point: he is responding to someone saying that if the NPCs provided real help the instances would be too easy. Yet we can make the instance easier by grouping with other players. If Anet didn’t want the instances to be easier, they wouldn’t allow us to play them in a group.
Why not just nerf everything to have the HP of an ambient then? Buffing the NPC’s would give those that want to play solo no challenge. If people want to do the story instances easily then they can just group up with other players. This way everyone has a choice.
Maximum efficiency is less than about a minute per apple, so at worst, it’s an hour of effort. (Only the first apple or two might take longer, til you figure out how to go back/forth quickly.) Mind you: it’s so stupefyingly boring to me, that it feels like hours of grinding.
Yes, which, however people insist on defending it, is a BAD GAME DESIGN.
Why exactly is it bad game design?
Imagine how WvW and PvP players must feel if they want the skin but are forced to play PvE.