Guild Wars 2

The association between the loss of magic and the warfare would be connected to castes, Thruln says that once his people were mostly story tellers, in addition to other sources talking of magi and other priestly castes. During their “Age of Giant”: when they had magic and magitech it would be likely that the thinkers, the story tellers and the likes, were the higher ups of society(Not so much the leaders, as we know Giantkings were more likely warrior kings). But when magic was removed, so was their power and influence, which would almost evidently lead the more brutal to seize power. It is possible that without the influence of the thinking castes, the Giant Kings resorted to more brutish tactics in a new era where strength was the only medium of power. What better way to start a greedy bide for power when and even playing field has just tipped in balance? Without magic, the thinking caste was weak, and as nature dictated the new era of brutality killed them off and sent the Jotun spiraling down.

For humans living like Grawl, I feel I should have added that the comparison to grawl should not be taken so literally. Grawl are sort of the butt of every primitive joke in the Guild Wars Universe. It is likely that at first glance the Juton percieved the humans as inferior for many reasons, mistakenly believing them to be more primitive than they were, as Juton had Magic and Technology, where as humans came well… relatively primitive in comparison to Juton. this could be more accurately debated if we had some lore sources explaining what the first human settlers were like, what things they caried over through the mist (Under the assumption that the gods brought them with them) as in… what tools they had.. what kind of magic they used.. things like that.

It could be possible that the Juton had underestimated the intelligence of humanity and had unintentionally aided in their advancements. by aid, it’s possible the Juton might have tought humanity a lesson or two about civilization or even held off other races from interfering.

Notice how the Juton don’t specify that these gods are the six gods, they specify a connection but we can not be sure these deities are the same, remember.. these deities have family, demigods and successors. I know there is a lot of lore about Dwyana being the first human deity to show up on tyria but there could have very well been related predecessors, such as Abbadons predecessor. Given that a lot of the earlier deities seem to be pricks(lol Dhuum), they could have very well cared less about humanity, as we aren’t sure if all the deities were responsible for humans or if they were the “project” of a few.

I’ll give an imaginary casinario to help explain.. Lets say humans are a creation of Dywana. She brings along humans and some of the other deities poke fun at her creations, preferring the Juton as worshipers. Then they discover that Dywnas little project produced the better people and all the gods decide to hop on the bandwagon or Balthazaar kills his father who was with the Juton or something like that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

However, typically in fiction the “big bad” is also the last to rise. This would in fact imply the Sixth to be said “worst of the ED” rather than Primordus (since it’s clearly not Kralkatorrik – and usually in such scenarios, the “worst of the villains” doesn’t awaken/show up until after a couple lesser ones were knocked out first).

I do not believe that Primordus’ development to show him “clearly” as the Big Bad. He was “followed” by in the sense that he was first, little else – the ED aren’t united nor is it likely they woke up just because Primordus did.

Correction, The big bad is the Last to be faced

The trope you’re thinking of is sometimes called the Fake out villian, which is generally the first and weakest enemy to be thrown at the protagonists to give them a false sense of what is to come.

When you have a “tier” of enemies presented, generally the one with the most symbolic or impactull wording is an indicator of the big bad. In the Guild Wars 2promotion video’s it generally starts with Primordus awakening and causing the world havic, as if he was harbringer of horrors to come. This could go for the “last to arise”, but this is not only rare for this trope, but Krakkletoric is only really flushed out as the mad dragon with personal issues towards a runaway minion, While Primordus is literally sending minions bursting out of the ground in such a manner that you cou;dn’t possible imagine what true power lies under the earth.

Primordus is being flushed out as the dragon who really wants to consume everything, No coastal minion collecting.. no messing with norns through propoganda, no chasing down renegade minions, he’s in it to win it.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’m not saying they are wrong, just that they are as reliable sources of information as a moa.

Sure they’ve devolved and most of them have forgotten and almost all of them don’t care. However I don’t believe that every shred of information beyond what we have already been told by them has been lost., otherwise the entire flavor behind their purpose in the grand plot would be meaningless.

BrunoBRS.5178:

as for the jotun discussion, it’s nice to keep in mind that most of the jotun culture and history has been lost, and the jotun themselves are entirely to blame. as far as we know, anything a jotun says about their past is made up.

And that would make a perfect irony trope, denying the caveman for being an ignorant liar when a few scrapes of ancient lore have survived through them.

First off, Thruln says humans arrived over seas and settled on the shore before spreading out to the rest of Tyria. Given that Orr was bordered by the ocean this makes sense. Given that there were Five powerful races in the past, we can’t assume the territory under their control is parallel to today. Juton could have very well had territory stretching closer to Orr, in which they could have interacted with humans much in the way the player does with more primitive species.

Yes, Thruln blames the loss of magic for the inter fighting rather than arrogance, but it very well could have been both. The addition of a magic drought is just more fuel to the fire of the known Juton Wars, not a something exclusively contradictory.

Thrulns notion that humans lived like Grawl could very well have occurred within that five year frame, for a powerful race like the Juton, and emerging people might have very well seemed primitive from the perspective of the Juton, that is until the gods granted them power boosts.

I don’t care how much arena net attempts to deviates from other game franchises, they are prone to lack of subtle like most plots in gaming and they are prone to retconning in favor of driving a story. I just don’t see strong implications to show Thruln is majorly wrong simply because he contradicts human lore and stresses the few tidbits about the gods Arena net has as officially true. Of course this is entirely speculative, so your efforts to somehow notion Thruln as mostly wrong is mostly pointless considering everything related to humans is not 100% indisputable as you’re making it out to be.

It could be that the gods are beings that Order magic with their “Consumption” and dragons bring choas to it with theirs

But yeah, great theory

I take Human God lore with a grain of salt, given that

Magic wasn’t create by the gods
Bloodstones werent created by the gods
Thruln the lost claiming the Gods were original in favor of Juton, but abandoned them for humans.

It seems that A-net really lost interest in the human gods typical story.

Plot development clearly shows Primordus is the big bad, There is always a symbolic meaning behind the order of opponents in almost anything in fiction. If you want a mythical entity out of other entities to show something great, you’ve got to put him in the hot seat.

Primordus seat is pretty hot.. First to Awaken with statements of how others “Followed” pretty much gives him the high chair. Had a champion which had a huge villain spotlight".

This isn’t anything based on logical statistics because little is known of his true power given we don’t know exactly what happened in the depth. This is based off fictional meaning and plot progression in general, an aspect of the story and it’s spotlights.

I agree though that if anything Jormag is being prepped to be the second runner up, soley based off his looming power and theme as a power hungery tyrant.

Given that lore surrounding humans has been retconned before, the notion the Thruln is entirely wrong in what he says regarding the “Gods” is pushing it. Perhaps the Jotun are mixing gods up, perhaps humans are a bit hazy with their origin. I’m not one to stand vigilant in the face of contradictory lore with the idea that arena net is throwing pointless lies around to try to make it seem like everyone else is wrong. Generally when in MMO wants to convey a religious beleif is wrong, you’re without a reasonable doubt given an indication that it’s wrong. I’ve scene this happen in other stories and generally the conservative approach to the lore results in them being stuck in a Retconn. It isn’t present with the Jotun, who have had “Ancient Master Race” as a fundamental part of their character. The notion that they once had such a power should be a lore incentive enough to listen to what they have to say, perhaps the sheer insanity of how it sounds is the flavor “This caveman couldn’t possibly know anything about my gods, hahahah”, but in truth holds a shred of handed down knowledge that the human couldn’t possible fathom.

Also, I knew you’d target the “First dragon awakening” in the literal sense. First dragon Awakening would refer to the First known dragon awakening or Previous Dragon awakening. not everything I say is in an abnormally literal sense nor should it be taken, reminds me of my early days when my A.S would cause me to take and express things to literally, glad I broke out of that cycle.

Primordus is the first to Awaken, Primordus had a champion that almost defeated the Dwarves.. Promordus likely has the entire depths under his control.. Promordus doesn’t corrupt, he MAKES minions. Primordus follows all the symbolic build up as being the BIG BAD.

Well Jotun are far more humaniod than let’s say, Ogres and Etten. They essentially look like large hairless neanderthal like humans with sharp teeth. I wouldn’t say they look THAT different from norn, there are things far less humanoid in appearance (kodan).

The relationship between norn and Jotun I believe is stated somewhere in something reguarding the history of Jotun.

As you know, the Jotun were once a very powerful race that fell into a very bad dark age (that’s still happening) after the first Dragon Awakening. The Norn were living with them and the way this is stated is as if the norn were a living as citizens amongst the Juton civilization. whether they were mutally living together as a society or just two closely related races or ONE race is still unknown. In some ways I feel the Juton and Norn were once the same race, but after the dragon attack, those that discovered the spirits were saved and were able to lift themselves out of their decline while others degraded to the point of primitive cavemen. since this Timeframe is unknown, the norn and juton could have grown apart greatly in physical appearance.

Murasaat are apart of the “original five” plotline, they can’t just abandoned them now, we need villains other than elder dragons and communist mole rats.

Lazuras was never confirmed dead, he could have repopulated Mursaat in the last 250 years (Because Mursaat biology is that unkown..)

BIOLOGY OVERLOAD!!!

I don’t think I would have the stomach playing norn if it turned out they were some ethereal energy being that maintains various biological forms at whim or any other Formless shape shifter trope. I’m too comfortable with the idea that norn are mammalian humanoids related to Kodan or Juton to were granted shape-shifting powers by the spirits :P

By the way, what exactly is Komir goddess of now? It says she’s of Truth and Spirit.. but that means what now?

Seperatist could be a necromancer or Grenth worshiper

Isn’t Grenth associated with taking to the world in full view, no illusions?

It’s even worse Conncept, as most Rangers re-roll warrior due to their displeasure with the class…

People shouldn’t be saying they “Need a class” for a dungeon Csaj, they should be saying they need a "role. It’s that sort of elitism that will lead to everyone rolling only Warriors and guardians for the sake of “Efficiency”.

Another reason they don’t generally ask for engi’s is most people feel Engi’s aren’t a popular class. Not because they are bad compared to every other class (Remember, Every class other than Warriors and Guardians are terrible at the moment) but because they just are not that common of a choice.

Well the Assuran goal besides slaying the elder dragon is essentially world domination, probobally as a result of their major napoleon complex. I don’t think they would go back to the depths with the skritt, I feel they’d rather dominate the overworld where they can feel special when they have even the technologically minded Charr under their leadership.

Given that Primordus seems to be the biggest and the strongest elder dragon active right now, we can assume the depths are virtually uninhabitable and will be for a while.

Dragons can have multiple champions

People forget norn are pretty quick for their size

Part of it is that size can determine how easy it is to target an enemy players hitbox, where as asura would have the greatest advantage. Given tab targeting and the fact that Asura really aren’t as small as other small races in other games, the advantage is very small.

Agreeing with wintermute, Grenade is fine, everything else needs a buff.

Great point about norn human form being comforable

Kind of disappoints me though, I don’t like the idea that we haven’t seen the norn true form…

Stun barb arrow

I wish we had access to the Tarnished Coast.

I feel there is likely a disagreement about Kryta.

I get a sense that the original story dev lead was trying to create a story projection where Elonians and their daughter nation Kryta would end up being the remaining human kingdoms (and specifically people) where as the Acalanions and possibly Canthans would get the extinction stick. Newer devs got in and didn’t like the direction and decided to make Krtya a mixing pot nation.

Yeah I’m pointing out some controversial conspiracy theories here, looking back at the old history you get an fantasy where the European based people are getting killed off while the Africa+Mid east based people have two fully functioning kingdoms.
Granted, Elonia is ruled by an insane undead dictator, which may or may not be as bad as it sounds.. It beats near extinction though.

It’s the only drawing of nude murasaat out there

I lost interest in the Delvians when it was revealed that most have “hair”

I think I get the idea, attacks with modified arrows fall into the engineer design, sure the bow itself isn’t very tech based, but think of all the explosive arrows and such?

Interesting, I currently run 30earth/30 water/10 arcane pretty efficently.

for reference on form, look up Peryite from TES, his dragon form sums up the body type Jormag could have. Serpentine body, but with standard dragon wings and legs.

Lets hope that there is at least one elder dragon with Wyvern type body, as in the more anatomically rational dragons who’s front arms are the wings, like bats. (like in Skyrim)

So are the Murasaat necessarily physical being? or is has their planes jumping ability Ascended them beyond that?

I mean, they obviously have no faces under those masks of theirs.. meaning eating would be an issue…

The idea that viking had giant manly beards is a misconception, much like the horned helmets (horns were proven to be drinking cups). Scandinavians in that era more often than not had beards, but they were wispier.

Because norn women are more attractive than humans.

Because everyone likes a tough, life loving nordic race.

Because shapeshifting.

Because I couldn’t think of a better engineer other than Charr.

Or they could have just had viewpoints similar to the early Greeks…..

So i’ve been going around the forums to see if my Theory that everyone compares themselves to either warriors or Guardians is true.

Surely this is it, this was the finale class Needed to prove without a doubt that every single class is terrible other than Warriors, or at least the entire player base thinks that.

If you don’t believe me, go to any class forum and you will see posts exactly like this. People saying Warriors or guardians can do better.

So when 80% of the overall classes are “Bad” or ineffective, what does that make the 20% by comparison?

As a side note, every forums literally makes it sound like 80% of the classes are useless and unplayable, even if glitches were fixed. This is disheartening, I can’t even decide what class to role next since most of them are unplayable(supposedly)

Trust the NPC’s are wrong, I’ve said this before but duing the norn order of whispers chains.. Tibult Leftpaw refers to domisticated pack bulls as Dolyak…

In addition I was given an invisibility spell to sneak passed Dredge.. which are completely blind and rely on their other senses…

Yeah I’m pretty sure NPC claims are mistakes, Voice acting gets tricky and concepts can change after voice acting has been implemented.

Interesting, I knew very little about AoC’s failures until now

One of the things I’ve learned after playing several MMO’s is that people prefer the feeling of being powerful in 1v1 situations before they ever get the urge to work as a team. This is brought on by simply losing to a single player of another class multiple times, which gets the player mad because they are unable to best them and therefore push for the game to focus on balancing their class solely so they can get back at those they have lost too.

People like to run the shows, feel like they are the one tipping the scales, and feel that they can accomplish tasks on their own.. hence why people get angry when classes are more support based, even if their assistance is vital.

Suctum is kind of right about fire, A lot of it’s perks are gimmicky.

I can argue that earth arguably supports the fire attune more so than fire could ever support earth, so earth is pretty much a twofer.

I forgot to add that another reason could be that they do not want earth or water to be a single type, so each weapon build either focuses on one, the other or both.

fore example, Dagger Focus makes Water a complete vunrability and CC powerhouse, argueable scepter aswell.

Earth is more offensive with Staff where as water is more healing, this is the opposite with other weapon builds, particularly Scepter and focus, where water goes more offensive condition wise and earth becomes mixed (Essentally,, Dagger Dagger earth and staff are the most offensive in earth attune)

They likely did this so that different weapon users would work around different defensive attunes.

30 earth 30 Water 10 Arcane d/d

Never felt weak, good survivability in PVP (still weak against theives but meh).

I switch attuns for healing or damage combo’s without constantly stressing.

If they have wood like fibers for bones, then they would be considerably hard to break, as their bones would be akin to flexible green wood.

Well I already stated that even the ascalonians, particularly women have slight asian features in them. Whether this was intentional or has something to do with the way the models were designed remains to be unkown.

Given that Arena Net is owned by NC soft, it’s possible some the CG designers were transferred over from other NCsoft teams, teams that designed for K-rpgs. This would explain the similar appearance of Guild Wars 2 humans to Humans in Korean MMO’s.

That being said it would be pretty easy to perceive a character as canthan.

Still, this thread is still about Menzies, guy was such a mystery. Makes me wonder more about the family ties of Gods

Like we know Grenth is Dwayna’s kid, and that Abbadon had a predecessor.

So the idea that Balth and Menzies shares one parent leaves a lot unknown.

I think things will settle out as Elonia and Cantha are added into the game. When this happens the cultural districts of Divinities reach will likely be reformatted to be more practical, rather than containing people that are clearly acalonian.

One thing I don’t believe will happen, is that the Krytan civilians will reach a complete overhaul. This is because with kryta is already iffy with it’s residence, surely it was elonian coloney (though the Krytans resembled natives of the americas) but the ramifications of the surviving Ascalonians fleeing to Kryta and the ravaging of the elder dragons likely caused ascalonians to become the majority, specifically under the idea that the searing had wrecked their people (Which would have resulted in baby booming)

Edit: Why is (HAP-EN) censored?

Abbadon was immature, that aside I don’t think I got anything wrong here.

So as we all know the Human Gods brought along various Kitteneaters who ended up not being very good Gods, things like Dhuum (Dwyna let him come along because?) and Abbadon, which for some reason were once a part of the pantheon.

However we have an oddball in the good family tree, which is Menzies.

While Dhuum could arguable have been considered important and respected at one time by his fellow Gods, Menzies just doesn’t seem like the kind of guy you’d let cross over the mists with you to help your human progeny grow and develop. He’s evil, has domain over horrifying shadow monsters, and wants to pry the God of Warfare from his seat despite Balth being pretty good at his job. Not to mention Arena net goes out of their way to mention he’s Balth’s Half-Brother…

Maybe, just maybe… Balth and Menzies were born after the arrival of the gods… This would exclude any questioning behind the reasoning of bringing in a mustache twirling villain over the mists with you.

That doesn’t even cover the confusion of Balth and Menzies parents.

I like how everyone compares ele’s to Rangers, Warriors and Guardians… The same class every other class forum complains about.

Rangers may have an upper hand over ele’s

buuut warriors and Guardians are universally better than every class..

I love the kits, particularaly the Grendade and Elixer gun. Nothing says awesome like spraying worms with toxins.

It’s stated that the pale tree was planted on top of Ronans family grave site. This can be taken as a notion that the pale tree based Sylvari off of the bodies found underneath it (Also explaining why the tree produces dogs, which would have been buried too)