Guild Wars 2

Ganzo.5079:

IF this trait will be a grand master trait, it will be ok for the effect that the trait provide. (with the chilling option i mean)
But this dont cover the need of the class of more snaring options, because its not the problem of one build, but its a problem of the entire class.

edit: lol i like the hot ice thing, even if too much rng dependant, with our fire condition spam, the chance have to be really low, something like 15\20% at max, to be balanced.

I would put the Trait at 25 zeal. that way it would require some decent dedication to get to.

As far as Hot Ice I think it would depend honestly, I would say maybe 33% would be about right. Our only weapon that actually applies burning outside of VoJ use is the torch #4 skill, which only pulses 3 times on 3 enemies. However the things that I could see as a bit of a problem would be purging flames, which pulses every second, and our burn on block trait with a fair amount of aegis use, focus#5 and shelter. Spirit weapon burn could be a slight issue in Spvp, not sure how many of those builds actually trait for spirit weapon burn though. One way to get around this though would be to make it last for 1 second on a 1 second cd, that way you have a chance to keep applying it but skills would not be able to stack it insanely high. (such as dropping purging flames then WW, then shelter in a zerg or something)

However the big key with this would be the massive amount of trait synergy this would have with almost every build. Virtues line would make the grandmaster virtue trait great, As i said it goes well with spirit weapons, burn on block, the radiance tree would also make good use of it through decent virtue of justice refreshing. The only Issue is that I am not really sure where the best place for it would be. I would like zeal just because the trait line does need some help, but as you said before, control is an issue of all builds.

Ganzo.5079:

Bakitten291:

See I still believe the a traited symbol chill would make more sense For a guardian than adding cripple. Considering we already have glacial heart, i just think chill fits better. I do agree that it can be OP at times but I think that something like 2 second chill on symbol use would be fine because the ONLY weapon that could make it OP at that point is the hammer. At that point you could make it so the 25 point zeal trait (symbols do more damage) is replaced by this so you tone down the possible damage they can do while fully traited. Also the hammer symbol is easily dodged as it is so adding a chill to it wouldnt be disasterous.

the problems with chill is that he add too much things. -66% movement speed and +66% on skill CD… its really too much, and thats why glacial hearts its so situational as trait (maybe too much situational)

Thats why it would all be short duration. Im not asking for perm chills. On symbol pulse i would want only like .5 seconds. If set on symbol use it would only be 2 seconds. Even with 100% added chill thats only 1 second per pulse or 4 seconds per use. But you also need to sacrifice some or all your rune slots, your food, and possibly some points into zeal to get to 100% duration as it is. Also read my edit on my last post

Also, how actually does chill work? Does it make the skill recharge at a full 66% slower or does it only take longer while the condition is on and when it comes of it starts recharging like normal.

See I still believe the a traited symbol chill would make more sense For a guardian than adding cripple. Considering we already have glacial heart, i just think chill fits better. I do agree that it can be OP at times but I think that something like 2 second chill on symbol use would be fine because the ONLY weapon that could make it OP at that point is the hammer. At that point you could make it so the 25 point zeal trait (symbols do more damage) is replaced by this so you tone down the possible damage they can do while fully traited. Also the hammer symbol is easily dodged as it is so adding a chill to it wouldnt be disasterous.

Edit: just had another idea. Add a trait to make it so that every time you burn your foe you have a chance to chill your enemy. This would work great with our semi weak virtue of justice traits, allow chill to effect all weapons, and maybe make it so activating
Virtue of justice also always applies a chill. Call it something like “Frozen Fire” or “Hot Ice”

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

I got Kited!

I guess the “how to deal with mesmer” thread come at a very good time. Start reading it.

Bakitten291:

To my point: Symbols are a basis of our class, we have 6 traits that effect them, 3 major in honor, 3 minor in zeal. Signets have 3 Major traits in only the radiance line. With so many options to customize symbols I think it would make more sense to change one of the 6 out instead of one of the only 3 that alter signets. Also, what exactly is supposed to be changed on signets? giving us the generic speed increasing signet? No thanks, I would much rather have a trait applied to symbols that increases our build diversity than every guardian and their mother running the same one signet.

If you think the symbol hindering mechanic should require traits, then you are in agreement with me. I’m the original person who proposed the concept (at least in the context of this thread).

Ive said that in multiple threads on the guardian forums, make it either a 15/20/25 point trait in zeal and have it give a 2 second chill when first placing the symbol, or a .5 second one on pulse. I personally feel 1 second each pulse might be a bit much since symbols already do damage and supply buffs, and do also have the other augments such as healing, applying vulnerability (which is honestly the one i would like to see switched out for)

Heinel.6548:

Silver.8023:

simply because they all have it available on all but three weapons,

It’s on their weapons as a dead weight skill that has never seen use. If I’m ever caught by a warrior it wouldn’t be because of a cripple, it’d be because i’m out of cooldowns to counter immobilize and knockdowns.

Ganzo.5079:

We arent blah blah blah.

Guardians has just as many offensive teleports as a thief. Maybe on somewhat longer cooldowns, but we also don’t die to a sneeze like they do, which means some of their mobility has to be spent on defense, rather than all offense. The only thing eles have that puts them at an advantage over guardians is RTL, nothing else.

Bakitten291:

See the issue in comparing skills like that is you are not comparing them fully.

You argue that the signets are underpowered. So then propose changes to them. Not the weapons.

To silver’s point: yes because it would make sense for them to also pick up charge and bolas and COMPLETELY overlook the skill on their weapons… It makes sense now.

To Ganzo’s point: We have 2, Flashing blade, and Judges intervention. Thieves have: 9
(http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_step_%28mechanic%29) 2=9 correct?

To my point: Symbols are a basis of our class, we have 6 traits that effect them, 3 major in honor, 3 minor in zeal. Signets have 3 Major traits in only the radiance line. With so many options to customize symbols I think it would make more sense to change one of the 6 out instead of one of the only 3 that alter signets. Also, what exactly is supposed to be changed on signets? giving us the generic speed increasing signet? No thanks, I would much rather have a trait applied to symbols that increases our build diversity than every guardian and their mother running the same one signet.

Heinel.6548:

I am claiming something much more generalizable than 100% chill time. If that example is confusing just skip that part and read the rest of the post at face value.

The trade off for not having burst damage is having higher sustained damage. Guardian auto attacks are already one of the best, if not the best if you are only looking at a DPS meter. That can’t be used as an excuse to get cripple.

Asking for cripple is also a bad thing. How many warriors do you see using cripple? Let’s not even talk about the glass cannons. The balanced ones also use bolas. They use bulls charge. The guardian knockdown and immobilize signets are arguably better versions of those skills with less visually confirmable animations and no chance of missing the target. Even D/D eles, yes they use chill, but when they’re on the offensive, you’re more likely to be caught in a immobilize with that earth grasp skill, more than you get chilled by their pbaoe ice blast. If they have a cripple skill in their bars a lot of the times they aren’t even being utilized. How many people know churning earth actually cripples the targets while channeling?

See the issue in comparing skills like that is you are not comparing them fully. The immobilize signet is useless for a passive. 90 condition damage is not even an added 25 damage to our burn, which is our only condition and can not stack. Yes the immobilize is great but the passive is fairly useless. Compare it to throw bolas which actually has a longer duration, a shorter cooldown (even with signet traited it is longer) does damage, and is a projectile finisher.

The power signet on the other hand is somewhat decent, gives you 90 power and a 2 second knockdown, but comparing it to bulls charge you really need to look at it all. Bulls charge has once again a shorter CD (this time traiting bane signet will lower the cd below charge) Does damage, just like bane signet, knocks down for the same time, but is a leap finisher, and most importantly MOVES YOU to your target. The only thing that the signet has over it is double the range, which honestly doesnt matter that much as most people you wont be able to cover the distance that fast to make it worth it in the first place.

Also as far as warriors not using cripple, you realize that almost every weapon they have has a cripple on it right? mainhand axe, sword, greatsword, rifle, Hammer has an cone cripple. Also mace offhand has a knockdown, Shield has a stun, and arrow has an Immobilize. Warriors have a TON of ways to keep their targets near them with just weapon skills, adding in utilities just makes sure nobody gets away, were as we have barely any CC on our weapons outside hammer, of which one of those most people can just walk out of. The only other CCs on weapons are binding blade, which only works at 600 range and if an enemy walks out of that before you pull it loses the dot and the pull, and the immobilize on scepter which is actually very good but on a broken weapon. I really don’t see how asking for a 2 second chill on a single skill that isn’t even on every weapon is a bad thing.

I actually switched over to a 20/30/20/0/0 build and am rather enjoying it at the moment. The added crit that i get for 30 radiance brings me up to 76% chance with food/oil. While the 20zeal keeps me above 3k attack with my 1h sword. Sacrificing the 100 power for 100toughness and 10%crit damage from valor I think was also worth it since it gives me some added damage buffer, but i actually onl lost a very small amount of damage (literally less than 100 per full zd hits)

This build is still lacking somewhat of a secondary fall back heal other than the food, much like my 30/30/10/0/0 build was. But it does feel more durable and still keeps that good damage output. Also switching from GS for my off weapon to hammer I think was a better idea as it still does some good burst damage and gives that nice added CC to ensure I am able to hit enemies to get my food healing proc.

After messing around with some new zeal builds I have come to realize that honestly, zeal is not THAT horrible. The issue with zeal is that you only really have a 1-2 viable options to pick per trait level, compared to the others were 4-5 of the starter ones are all decent and actually might be picked even at 20 trait points. If this trait was put it I would say either make it replace the 15, 20, or 25 point traits. At those points you invest enough in Zeal to make it actually effect your build.(instead of say 10 were most builds have 10 to throw around anyways).

Also I support the chill effect on cast of symbols (maybe 2 seconds) because of how powerful chill really is. This will help support the symbol as people will have a bit of a tougher time getting off them and give us more of the “area denial” Anet has said we are supposed to have. The only Issue I really can see with this MIGHT be Hammer with the constant symbol dropping, but to be honest Hammer is a CC focused weapon anyways, and most classes CC weapons are VERY CC heavy. (stares at maces for warriors)

Amins.3710:

In this I actually didn’t change anything outside of Reduced Recharge for Focus because I wanted the other 50 pts in Power. Having played it, I would really like the 5pts for another Blind….

I’m not sure I can take out Stability or SY for Smite Condition.

I’ve never been a big Mediation guy, the heals seem very lack-luster… 1500 vs having the shouts…

I agree, that there is a lack of healing in this build and that’s why having another blind so I could have 3 seperate blinds, would be good.

If you could find a way to tear yourself away from Stability, going mediation would work. I say Stability because SY is just too good… giving another 20% crit & protection when going for a bomb is excatly what’s needed.

Having said that, I’ll give it a try and tell you how it goes!

I know another pairing i’m going to do, and w/ your Smite Condition suggestion, I think i can get up to 22k+ on an upscaled.

Ive been living without stability for a while now so I guess I am just used to it. At the moment I am running a 20/15/30/0/5 Build but I am not too sure about it. I think I just love going full radiance too much for the massive crit chance, since it increases the healing from the food. My 30/30/10/0/0/0 Build that I tried earlier was amazing for damage, but was very lacking on defenses. It worked well for small skirmishes but zerg vs zerg fights were ugly.

As far as your build I think I just lack the correct gear to make it work like you do. As I am running half solder half knights armor, kinghts rings, zerker earings and valk amulet. My crit damage and Power end up being about 20% short and about 200 short respectively but my armor and crit chance are of course higher. I am just not sure If I should try farming for the gear to match to try out your spec, or just work with what I have to make one, knowing I will not get the same numbers.

Quick question. i thought your latest build was 30/0/30/5/5. With not using the GS are you still going 30 into zeal or is there a newer spec I missed also i am curious as to why you go AH over monks focus since you already use judges, and smite condition woulf be a great dps boost to your bar. (just wondering since I personally dont think AH gives constant enough heals with my playstyle to warrent using it, not saying it is horrible to use it.)

This is just speaking from my personal experience:

Being formerly from Ioj (I left the last week we were in T2 due to my guild at the time (Defenders of Heroism) Pretty much becoming a dead guild. For me it was not transfering to the winning server. It was transfering to the server that I had people to play with. (most of which I met through duels during our long long time with BG and SoR) To the guilds that left after I feel for you, I know what it was like to be on IoJ during holiday events. And also how much we struggled getting a NA/EU team together. It really just lost its fun when during my personal prime time, we were outmanned on all but one BL. Even on reset nights we only had queues on 2 BLs, which is kind of crazy for what was at that time a T2 server. Overall, it just was not fun for me anymore, and I know it really started to effect the people on IoJ as our numbers slowly but steadily decreased.

Silver.8023:

Yeah, Permeating Wrath is a pretty insane trait, it’s difficult to go 30 Virtues though.
I did notice that it actually makes ranged weapons not as effective at delivering long range burns, that’s the trade-off I guess. Bit of a drag there but hey, it’s not like our ranged weapons are ranged weapons.

I have tried multiple times to get that trait into my build but have yet been able to do it. Just have to give up too many required things to get that deep into virtues. Unless of course you use healway. However it is pretty much useless as far as damage goes to go as a condition damage version of that spec. The burning just takes so long to work. And you lose a lot of the damage from your retaliation.

Yaki.9563:

Yes you can imagine you’re as useful as a x/x/30/20/x Guardian.

I’m sorry that some people cant work anything other than a AH/EM build? Healway is a great build that is pretty out of the box, since almost nobody goes 30 virtues. On top of the numerous DPS builds that are thrown around on the forums. Just because I don’t feel like dropping the “required” 50 points to make a single 30 point talent work doesnt make me less useful in any way.

Maiden England.3491:

Bakitten291:

Maiden England.3491:

Focus 5 give you protection from next 3 attacks, and its instant. So if you’re fast enough…

And thats part of the reason I almost always run with one out. Also because of those out of nowhere warriors that charge and quickness 100b you.

Anyways more on topic, i actually ran into an issue with this the other night with against a full zerker warrior. Hit me for 8k evisc and 1.8k auto attacks after. He would pop frenzy, the shout that adds 10stacks of vuln and then use axe2 for more vuln, evisc, then super high damage fast auto attacks. Ate my face before I knew what was going on.

The biggest thing i discovered from that is when you lose half your health in an instant like that, blow every single defensive skill you have, all your virtues, focus skills, anything you pretty much can. Because if you survive that initial burst you pretty much won the fight.

Yeah he was complaining about the thiefs OP singleshot abilities, not warrior

And? Works the same way. If you take half your health in damage that fast you pop defenses and try to survive the initial burst. You do that your good. Thieves i find to be even easier in that respect because half the time if you burst them back you win anyways.

Maiden England.3491:

Focus 5 give you protection from next 3 attacks, and its instant. So if you’re fast enough…

And thats part of the reason I almost always run with one out. Also because of those out of nowhere warriors that charge and quickness 100b you.

Anyways more on topic, i actually ran into an issue with this the other night with against a full zerker warrior. Hit me for 8k evisc and 1.8k auto attacks after. He would pop frenzy, the shout that adds 10stacks of vuln and then use axe2 for more vuln, evisc, then super high damage fast auto attacks. Ate my face before I knew what was going on.

The biggest thing i discovered from that is when you lose half your health in an instant like that, blow every single defensive skill you have, all your virtues, focus skills, anything you pretty much can. Because if you survive that initial burst you pretty much won the fight.

Drawing Guy.3701:

Personally I’ve never really considered Guardians tied to their traits for playstyle. They’re screwed with almost no traits that shorten weapon timers – you have 50 points pre-defined, and 20 to pick according to what utilities you prefer: 30 in Valor for toughness to crit (as half the game triggers on crit), purity (guardian can basically ignore debuffs with purity + signet) and AH (every weapon you have can cast buffs as with 2/3s of your utilities and your F1-F3 with 5 virtue) – so you have a small constant heal that synergizes with everything. 20 in Honor to get your only real weapons skill reducer or EM + buffing your dodging with vigor and heals. The end of the day is you’re left with Yaki’s statement. The only people I’ve seen break from this (0/x/30/20+x/x) is people that went with spirit weapon builds.

It’s really the weapon that defines the Guardian. Unlike other classes where you are picking weapons by best DPS or favorite skills, each guardian weapon has different utilities (symbols, blocks, heals, buffs, debuffs), so you should ALWAYS have EVERY weapon. Swap according to the situation.

It is called imagination, try using it when you go to put trait points in next time, its fun.

Sigil of energy, endurance regen food, vigor on crit trait. You need more endurance than that?

Great vids Amins. I recently switched to a 30/30/10/0/0 build due to your vids showing how strong the lifesteal food really is and I have to say I love it. I was originally running a 10/30/30/0/0 monks focus build due to the fear of needing the added healing but between GS heal and the lifesteal I tend to get enough.

Silver.8023:

snip

I do agree that sometimes we do get stuck using certain weapons with certain builds, however almost all classes are like that in a regard, since there are traits the go well with certain weapons. I do personally run high crit builds most of the time, so maybe that is why I am so partial to the sword.

As far as the torch goes I think it is a fantastic weapon, possibly one of the best for a raw damage offhand. the #4 torch throw does a bit less than our ZD when it crits, and also adds a 3 second( i think its 3 second) burn on the target. The #5, while I agree does do less single target damage than an auto attack, fills the role of a cone AoE with ALOT of hits. For food/traits that run on crits this skill is amazing in group combat when used correctly. As far as not applying burn it does in a sense as long as you have VoJ up, it should give 2 procs of it at least for a full hit on single target, even more for multi target. Also the skills are all very low cooldowns compared to our 2 other choices for offhands, and can be traited for even less.

I guess maybe I am more OK with our weapons filling certain niches in certain builds compared to being a bit more versatile as a warrior. I am fine with our hammer being a more CC based weapon, our Focus/mace being more defensive, and our Sword/Torch being mostly offensive.

See numbers aside I think we just have different play styles and thats what this is coming down to. I love 1h sword. Almost every spec I play now needs to include it, and it is more or less because I feel very comfortable with it and it really does not feel clunky to me at all. I seem to see more potential in it than you. (not saying thats a bad thing) Same goes for Scepter.

However I use scepter as a melee weapon first, and ranged weapon for when it needs to be, and honestly this DOES need to be fixed. The scepter is meant to be our sole ranged weapon and it fails pretty hard at that.

On the other hand I love Focus and torch and completely hate shield. It really just comes down to how we play our classes ourselves. Also just a bit of a background on me, My first character that I leveled was a warrior, which was kind of funny considering this was the first rpg that I had ever thought a warrior was fun. Got him up to level 54 and decided to test some different classes out too. And actually thought the Guardian was more fun and ended up switching to it.

Why for the love of god must we keep picking on 1h Sword, If you don’t like it that is fine, but seriously it is NOT that flawed of a weapon when used correctly. Lets compare it to warrior 1h sword

Auto attack:
Guardian: Fast hits (5 hits in 2.5 seconds) Very good at getting food/trait procs due to faster crits. Longest melee range of all weapons, pretty good damage.
Warrior: Medium speed, Medium damage, Bleeds with the first 2 hits.

#2
Guardian: Gap closer, Shadowstep movement, which means 0 travel time. Very low damage (I do agree this needs to be upped) AoE Blind on impact, also adds 3 stacks of vulnerability to those it blinds if traited.
Warrior: low damage, leap finisher, can clear immobilize if traited.

#3:
Guardian: High damage, absorbs projectiles, multi-hit so can also proc on crit effects more. Does root the caster but there are ways around this to ensure hits (immobilize, knockdowns, judge’s intervention use)
Warrior: Low damage cripple, does last for 7 seconds though, can immobilize for 1 second if traited.

So in the end we have a fast hitting, semi defensive, but still decent damage weapon with guardian, and for warrior we have a more control/condition based weapon for warrior. the only pros that the sword has for warrior over guardian is the leap finisher (which we have on our GS, which warriors do not), the cripple, and the bleed however we trade that off for getting a blind, a good burst ability with projectile absorb, and a fast hitting auto attack that can proc our burn pretty quickly. Also the burn proc from VoJ on our auto attack comes pretty much makes the bleed damage from warrior auto attack a wash.

LITF.2576:

Thanks for your 2 copper ^^ I’m aware of t3 Valor talent, but it requres 30 traits there, and it’s huge dps loss. Inspired Virtues sound good, but need to calculate than what’s better – 50 precision and cond dmg or that trait + recharge and duration.

With the amount of crit you have gaining 20% crit damage should be a net buff. Plus you get your choice of 2 good self heals and added toughness. Also you get might on block which makes shelter insanely good for a heal. I personally run a 10/30/30/0/0 build and the damage is pretty good along with the insane amount of heals you can pull from traits/omnomberry pies.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/WvW-PvE-The-Healway-Guardian/first

I will just leave this here….

Amins.3710:

Well, the good news is that Archer has made such an kitten of himself that he won’t be back nor regarded as anything more than a Troll.

The Bad news is, ~some~ (1 or two) of his points are valid.

Specifically: If you run a full dps build (x/x/30/5/5), you really do need the Omnom’s for the healing. It’s true. 354 healing on a crit is no joke.

Easily countered though…. nerf food and give a buff to Zealous Blade. The reality is, it’s not too OP because in order for the Build to work (30/x/30/x/x), you cannot have 20 in Honor for the Might Stacks (healing via AH) & Dodge Roll.

HOWEVER, w/ Food the way it is, the 30/x/30 build ~IS~ Viable. But it doesn’t change Archers Point: you really need the food because we lack the mobility Warriors inherently have due to thier weapons.

I would not trade my Guardian. Personally. 30/x/30 in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFHbjfUW_vk

Now I would have to say that is an issue with how crappy the zeal trait line is and the desperate need for a buff. However I have been running with my 10/30/30/0/0 build for a while now and with meditation healing i have to say that the pies are not required. I have ran with 100perc/10% crit damage food, Mango pies for the 88 health per second, hell even ghost pepper poppers for perma chill/crazy might stacks, And all of them are perfectly viable. Are omnom pies the best for the build? yes, they are, because they are crazy strong for a high crit build like I run. However they are not really required as the build has decent self healing as it is, and is more just icing on the cake.

Should they be nerfed at some point I will just move onto a different food instead of changing my spec, because as I said before in this thread, food is an added benefit more than anything. And the real key is finding the right food that complements your build in the best way.

oh duh, thinking pvp boon duration runes that only give 10% forgot normal ones give 15, stupid maths.

Exarthious.5792:

Bakitten291:

Exarthious.5792:

My bunker Warrior is far, far more durable than my bunker Guardian. The thing I love most about my bunker Warrior is triggering my three second shield block, running into a zerg, watching the Might stack to 20ish, and absolutely demolishing my target of choice.

Even better, my shout heals, heal my entire GROUP, not just myself, unlike the Guardian, who heals himself.

To add icing to the cake, the Guardian has downtime on his boons, while I also provide a permanent Swiftness, Regen, Fury, and 3 stacks of Might to my group, unless we’ve been in a prolonged fight.

After playing an 80 Thief, 80 Guardian, 80 Ranger, and 80 Warrior all in exotic gear, no other class in the game has felt as complete as the Warrior has for me.

I’ve been in fights running with a Guardian buddy, and they’ve killed him for example today a 3v2, they had (Elementalist, Thief, and Mesmer), and I held them the entire time it took my buddy to run across the borderlands to get back to us, so we could finish them off.

The BIG difference is the Guardian has much better condition removal, and I’ve found myself running Sigil of Purity a lot on my Warrior.

See the thing is that a healing power bunker Guardian can heal the group just as easily. (see the healway build posted earlier) With our 15 point dodge = AoE heal we can heal just as much as your shouts, add that in with sigil of energy, and the food that gives might on dodge and endurance regen it adds up to ALOT of group healing.

Also we can do the same exact same thing with block on might with shelter, our aegis use, and focus #5. The big difference I have really seen is the types of boons we give compared to warrior, mostly the difference in protection and fury. We have a little fury (only on ourselves) but alot of protection. You guys have alot of fury but little protection. As far as bunker’s go between the classes the only real difference is the buffs we give. And honestly I would say that Guardians pull ahead just because of our massive retaliation uptime, and how much damage that can do to people.

You’re missing a major difference in regards to defense. With Mace I can keep Weakness on multiple targets for a very long time. Which means unless they’re heavily crit spec’d, they’re doing a lot less damage to me, and my group. You would be suprised how effect this is, when you couple it with Rata Sum Runes. To me forcing condition removals, and also reducing damage is far superior than you providing Protection, considering most classes have thier own Protection buffs.

What is the radius to the dodge heal? I rarely get hit with it in WvW running with Guardians, because we’re moving around a lot. The radius to my shout heals seems to be pretty large in comparison.

Honestly not sure on the radius for the dodge heal, i would assume 600, but no more, also it comes at the end of the dodge, so you have to be pretty good at aiming them, which guardians who spec mostly for it are somewhat decent at it.

As far as weakness goes, condition removal as you said, isn’t really a big issue for guardians. I don’t even run a heavy condition removal spec and i get 2 every 10 seconds, (trait in valor line and sigil of generosity which pretty much purity but way better, I suggest you move to that.) along with my smite condition on demand every 16. This doesnt even account for those that run signet heal which is another condition every 10, the trait that signets remove a condition, soldier runes, the trait that shouts turn a condition to a boon, or the virtue of resolve trait which removes 3 conditions from all allies effected.

Also, weakness has zero effect on retaliation, so all the damage reflection would still be coming through. Granted, all these are situational depending on your spec, runes, sigils etc, but keep in mind alot of guardians do run alot of condition removal, and a good chunk of that is aoe condition removal too.

Exarthious.5792:

My bunker Warrior is far, far more durable than my bunker Guardian. The thing I love most about my bunker Warrior is triggering my three second shield block, running into a zerg, watching the Might stack to 20ish, and absolutely demolishing my target of choice.

Even better, my shout heals, heal my entire GROUP, not just myself, unlike the Guardian, who heals himself.

To add icing to the cake, the Guardian has downtime on his boons, while I also provide a permanent Swiftness, Regen, Fury, and 3 stacks of Might to my group, unless we’ve been in a prolonged fight.

After playing an 80 Thief, 80 Guardian, 80 Ranger, and 80 Warrior all in exotic gear, no other class in the game has felt as complete as the Warrior has for me.

I’ve been in fights running with a Guardian buddy, and they’ve killed him for example today a 3v2, they had (Elementalist, Thief, and Mesmer), and I held them the entire time it took my buddy to run across the borderlands to get back to us, so we could finish them off.

The BIG difference is the Guardian has much better condition removal, and I’ve found myself running Sigil of Purity a lot on my Warrior.

See the thing is that a healing power bunker Guardian can heal the group just as easily. (see the healway build posted earlier) With our 15 point dodge = AoE heal we can heal just as much as your shouts, add that in with sigil of energy, and the food that gives might on dodge and endurance regen it adds up to ALOT of group healing.

Also we can do the same exact same thing with block on might with shelter, our aegis use, and focus #5. The big difference I have really seen is the types of boons we give compared to warrior, mostly the difference in protection and fury. We have a little fury (only on ourselves) but alot of protection. You guys have alot of fury but little protection. As far as bunker’s go between the classes the only real difference is the buffs we give. And honestly I would say that Guardians pull ahead just because of our massive retaliation uptime, and how much damage that can do to people.

Im going to assume because of fury from save yourselves adding 20% also it should have a 15 second duration for him because of runes/traits (even longer depending on food choice)

Tysefol.2017:

I fully agree with you. There are two case scenarios : Either you are a glass canon guard, thus you are pointless, or you are a bunker that will be kited again and again and again.

Problem is, where Guardian can’t go glass canon, Warrior can due to their integrated heal (+8K) and their much higher damage. Where Warrior will burst down someone, we’ll get kited.

I’m TOTALLY okay with the fact that guardians are made for longer fights and that Warriors have burst (and I also agree with the fact that warriors can’t last as long as guardians – damage taking wise), but we do not have the tools to keep the fight as long as we need it. Warriors have, oddly enough.

A scepter & sword remake would be a nice start. A few skill would need a bit of change as well (Just thinking of Melandru’s form for instance, I remember the swipe had decent damage that could almost justify the slowness of the form. Now I can hardly get it to hit to something noticeable – was it nerfed ?).

I don’t think scepter is in need of a full remake, the biggest issue with it is the projectile speed. if it were instant or sped up alot the scepter would be in a good place. Also making smite a symbol will help with our ranged AoE as we have pretty much none.

Sword I am just confused about regarding a rework. I keep seeing people post that it needs to be fixed but what exactly is wrong with it? Auto attacks are fast and good damage (5 hits in the span of 2.5 seconds is nice) Flashing blade /could/ use a bit more damage, but the instant teleport and aoe Blind are nice. ZD is sound both defensively and offensively, though I do understand some frustration with it missing on further targets in WvW, but that is easily countered by using some form of CC before hand such as immobilize, or using judges intervention to move ontop right before the damage starts casting.

I do agree somewhat that guardians cant go full glass cannon spec, but I would attribute that more to our extremely weak zeal trait line more than anything. If we had a viable ranged option through fixing scepter or a good snare built into the zeal trait line I think we would see alot more viability for builds. As it stands people DO have too many ways to get away from a gaurdian without us having to gimp ourselves to keep them in place.

Ganzo.5079:

guardians dont need a % speed increasing(this is out of the main class concept), but a % slow movement against the enemy.

^^^^ this

True but most people avoid symbols like the plague. As i said make it semi deep in the zeal line. Hell make it a grandmaster, that way people might actually think of going full into zeal for damage builds. The only weapon that runs the possibilty of it being really op would be hamme since that has the fastest rate of applying symbols. Or maybe just make it so that it applies a 2 second chill to people in it when it first gets laid down.

Musty.3148:

LOL @ Archer’s food hate. Listen, if you’re min/maxing you take EVERYTHING into account.

Dissmissing food for builds and theory crafting make me value your opinion about as much as I value Lance Armstrong’s.

The grass is always greener I suppose.

The only change I’d like to see HONESTLY (not pipe dreaming) is a snare on a couple of weapons.

Smite turning symbol and giving a trait in 20 zeal or even change the 15 or 25 zeal traits to add a 1 second chill to symbol pulses and i would be completely content.

@archer

I love how this arguement has now turned to “food is used to make up for your build” considering I actually have tried MULTIPLE types of food for my build and it still works i find that not the case. Also I do used a modified version of my build in sPvP and it still works fine so honestly the food is not a band-aid to a build but just an enhancement. So if you want to gimp yourself in WvW then for not using them go ahead.

I also dont get why you intend to “change the minds of guardians” So it is your intention to get people to believe that all of our skills suck ( literaly the only weapon you didnt trash was GS but i may have missed that) Overall for someone who says they play a guardian I cant seem to understand why. According to everything you have said we are pretty much a garbage class despite MANY people telling you that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Archer.1658:

The fact you NEED food in your build is a sad. You rely on it, you need it. The fact you based your build that relies on food proves just how bad ur build is. You wont hit 4k on a target that has 3k armor with 2800 attack and 67% crit damage, as much as you want to think. Obviously when used correct no skill misses, that’s a terrible argument. I could care less about “Christos” opinions, i could get 5 people from my guild to say im a good guardian and it wouldn’t matter. Im not saying i can’t take down warriors either, but you won’t take down a good warrior. Face it.

As far as Brutaly is concerned he can go play his cookie cutter AH build in t1 and act like its impressive.

When a food can apply more healing than anything else your class can do, yes I will make a build around it. It is called being resourceful, and considering I am talking from a WvW standpoint where everyone uses these buffs, why should they not be included? And actually my build was originally based around high Crit AH build using vigor on crit before it got nerfed to oblivion for 1h builds. After that I found another resource to keep my high crit build viable.

Once again, I have no issues taking down warriors. I have done it multiple times before, and will continue to do so with or without you believing it. Honestly at this point I’m left to just believe that you are a troll that really does not know anything about thinking outside of the cookie cutter box for guardian, and will never utilize one to full potential.

Archer.1658:

Bakitten291:

Archer.1658:

Lol burn spec, you would die instantly after you burn your meditations.

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range. Zealots Defense, will almost miss every time and wasting JI to land it, theres goes one of your heals in an attempt to land this move. Ray of Judgement is crap and will miss if not do weak damage. Shield of wraith is good. Scepter is 100% useless in sPvP or WvW PvP, the immoblize takes too long to cast and smite isn’t going to do “good” damage unless they stand in it. Torch is decent dps. Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So your build is actually worse than a cookie cutter. I applaud your attempts at theory crafting a burning build, but in reality, its quite weak.

I once again give you credit for not being able to click a single link in my sig.
A) its is not a burn spec, it is a hybrid burn spec, as in I added condition damage while inflicting minimal loss of DPS, I still have 2800 power with 1h sword, 72% crit, and 67% crit damage.
B) I play WvW, i get food, Omnomberry pie with 72% crit heals for ALOT. add in passive healing from virtue and heals from meditations, and guess what, tons of self healing while STILL burning you for 500 per tick.

I also love how you say all these skills will miss, Do warriors get an extra 10 dodges or something I don’t know about? The scepter Immobilize is actually very easy to land, and combos directly into smite, even if the immobilize is broken its still getting a few hits in. Zealots is actually VERY easy to land with JI when used correctly and knowing the timing of the wind up, Ray of judgment is used Point blank, so not sure how that is going to miss…

Will some of these moves be dodged? yes, But I am confused on how all of them are supposed to somehow miss like you say. Considering you seem to have no clue how skills are correctly used for guardian I would be amazed if you actually played one.

These moves, will miss because of the angle that one can do. If you do zealots defense, I can move maybe 10 feet to one side, and it will completely miss. No dodge used there. Saying smite will land is more of an exaggeration than saying someone will stand in the symbols, it never happens, and if it does then you’re not playing good players. Again you are wasting a mediation (stun breaker + a heal) just to land it. Oh and your stats are below average. You should never include food into calculating stats, because that is completely situational. You would probably do less than 3k~ crit on warrior with over 3k armor with that attack using zealots defense. Burns stack duration as well only you can only proc VoJ so often, so he only has to cure one condition (or two if immobilized). Keep trying though.

I will include food if it is part of WvW and is a main basis of my healing. And my zealots normally hit for 4k+ on pretty much any target. once again Immobile + smite lands hits, regardless if you think it doesn’t or not. Wasting JI to land my highest damage ability + make it stronger through the 10% extra damage to burning targets trait I also don’t think is a waste. Once again I am sorry if you seem confused about how to play the class.

As far as stats below average, how are they? 72% crit is pretty much well above average, 2800 AP is with my sword, im at 2900 with my GS, my crit damage is once again 67% which is pretty normal, and my armor is just shy of 3k. The only difference is that I gave up a bit of power for more crit because my build counts on them for self healing and condition removal. Maybe you should look into some more diverse builds before you start comparing stats.

Brutaly already agreed with the fact that these skills when used correctly don’t just miss, and Christos has already vouched for my build/skill while playing. I am sorry you cant seem to get that but guardians are fully capable of taking down warriors.

Silver.8023:

Reven.6750:

Where a warrior has a cripple, a guardian has the ability to root the target in place.

I disagree with this entirely. Warriors also have the ability to hold targets in place.
Warrior – Six cripple weapon skills.
Guardian – Two cripple skills, one on an elite tome and the other a downed underwater skill

Warrior – Four immobilise skills across weapons and utilities in addition to the Leg Specialist trait if they take it, which would bring it up to five.
Guardian – Three immobilise skills. One of which is a slow moving projectile dealy and another a condition damage signet….

So really, we aren’t anywhere near equal footing in regard to snares. This is also ignoring the fact that Warriors also have much easier access to swiftness and have a couple more gap closers.

Yes we have wards, which I quite like, however, they aren’t reliable and I would trade them in a heartbeat for reliable snares. They only last around 6 seconds, have a large cooldown and stability renders them useless. Cripples on Warrior weapons have a good uptime with reasonably short cooldowns and when they’re on cooldown, they can also throw out some immobilises. Stability isn’t going to do anything against those.

I also play a Warrior and I can’t think of a Warrior weapon that feels as broken as say Guardian’s torch, scepter or sword (to a lesser extent, staff). In fact, I’d say all the Warrior weapons work really well and are quite fun to play.

Yes, Guardians can withstand a lot of damage, yes, we can throw out a lot of boons but we can’t catch anyone easily, let alone kill them easily. We’re like party buffing punching bags.
Considering Guardian is designed to be more effective in melee range, you’d think we would have more options for maintaining that range.

What is wrong with Sword and torch? Torch is great as a DPS offhand, which is kind of what it is meant to do, Sword is a fast hitting 1h with good damage. the only thing i would say is broken about sword is that the third attack cant hit siege for some reason.

Archer.1658:

Lol burn spec, you would die instantly after you burn your meditations.

Sword is absolutely terrible. Flashing blade animation is awful, and you will almost never land the blind unless you are point blank range. Zealots Defense, will almost miss every time and wasting JI to land it, theres goes one of your heals in an attempt to land this move. Ray of Judgement is crap and will miss if not do weak damage. Shield of wraith is good. Scepter is 100% useless in sPvP or WvW PvP, the immoblize takes too long to cast and smite isn’t going to do “good” damage unless they stand in it. Torch is decent dps. Therefore you would be smashed within seconds. So your build is actually worse than a cookie cutter. I applaud your attempts at theory crafting a burning build, but in reality, its quite weak.

I once again give you credit for not being able to click a single link in my sig.
A) its is not a burn spec, it is a hybrid burn spec, as in I added condition damage while inflicting minimal loss of DPS, I still have 2800 power with 1h sword, 72% crit, and 67% crit damage.
B) I play WvW, i get food, Omnomberry pie with 72% crit heals for ALOT. add in passive healing from virtue and heals from meditations, and guess what, tons of self healing while STILL burning you for 500 per tick.

I also love how you say all these skills will miss, Do warriors get an extra 10 dodges or something I don’t know about? The scepter Immobilize is actually very easy to land, and combos directly into smite, even if the immobilize is broken its still getting a few hits in. Zealots is actually VERY easy to land with JI when used correctly and knowing the timing of the wind up, Ray of judgment is used Point blank, so not sure how that is going to miss…

Will some of these moves be dodged? yes, But I am confused on how all of them are supposed to somehow miss like you say. Considering you seem to have no clue how skills are correctly used for guardian I would be amazed if you actually played one.

Think you quoted the wrong post brutaly. But that is correct, only your actually healing skill proc’s the buffs.

So i switched some traits/ sigils/ possible weapons around to give the build a bit more mobility. I dropped contemplation of purity and use a mix of retreat and syg to help. (preferably syg while fighting) I also found that the GS is much better suited for group combat so now if I am running with a group i go sword+torch/GS.

To help with condition removal from losing the meditation I changed my offhand and GS sigil to generosity, and also dropped retributive armor from my traits for the condition removal every 10 seconds. This gives me 2 passive removals that can trigger every 10 seconds and my on demand from smite condition every 16. Sadly i do lose some damage and healing from doing this (about 5% crit and losing a meditation. However i feel the build runs smoother and still is actually more survivable as i have constant condition removal and also so added mobility. Also with purity being on a longer CD the healing loss is barely noticable since it was only 1800 every 48 seconds.

Blackrain.5760:

Superior rune of the Undead. Condition damage baby.

Same here, amazing way to get condition damage without tanking your stats too much. (183 + 5% of your toughness (about 90 more for me) and you are already at 270ish condition damage from just runes.

Archer.1658:

worthless banter of hammer/staff vs GS warrior

Ok seriously, if you are going to argue against me, at least look at my build THAT IS RIGHT IN MY SIG. Sword + focus / scepter+ torch

Sword:
Auto attack: fast, hits for a good amount
Flashing blade: semi week but instant gap closer, blind, and speced to add vuln
Zealots Defense: good burst damage, roots you, but almost always opened with JI to promise hits

focus:
Ray of judgement: 2x blinds from bounce, 2x regen duration from bounce, 6 total stacks of vulnerability, AND some damage (about 1.6k normally when crits)
Shield of wrath: 3 blocks, each block give me might when speced for it, if not used explodes for 5k+ damage crits Also can be used at any time (excluding dazed)

Scpeter:
Auto attack: Wonky at range, but mostly use in melee for my build
Smite: somewhat decent, can be hard to land, but always paired with #3 when opening to promise hits
Chains of light: 900 range immobilize and vulnerability, no problems here

Torch:
Zealots flame: Small AoE burn, with a secondary ability to do very good damage and add a decent length burn at range
Cleansing Flame: Multi hit cone AoE, decent damage.

Also keep in mind that my build is a partial burn build, so every second you have burning thats 500+ damage ticking away, Meditation spec’d healing gives me 1800 heals on every utility use, Shelter as my heal gives me a might stack every time I block (and yes, i will absorb a 100b with it and throw those might stacks back in your face.)

So how about next time you try to argue you use the actual build of the person you are quoting, not some cookie cutter build that you “think” everyone uses.

Archer.1658:

All your arguments are situational. They all require certain situations and a group to effectively pull them off. You will heal less without a party with AH, so consider that out of the bag. The healway guardian is a nice support build, but again no DPS, therefore you’re just stuck soaking damage, might as well play a retaliation build and just afk. You will not beat a good warrior 1v1. Fact. Oh I forgot to add, good players usually dodge other classes moves too, you act like dodging a guardian is hard, it’s incredibly easy.

Generally don’t lose to warriors myself. The good ones are just much closer fights than the bad ones. And the difference between dodging a guardian and dodging a warrior is that most of their damage comes from 1-2 skills, where as ours is more sustained. There is no “this class will always beat this class, fact” in this game. Warriors are good in some areas, Guardians in others, however a good player is going to always beat a bad one regardless, and good vs good is always going to be a close match.

The buffs from Ecto make more sense stealing from a guardian tbh. Fear from necro does make sense though. However the go to answer is that it is “magic” and therefore does not require any reasonable explaining.

Aza.2105:

This is true yes. Also, don’t forget that Guardian’s have spirit weapons which are up to two extra sources of damage.

Always forget those things exist, normally I only WvW so they are never on my bar thanks to the poor AI in group fights. Dang things never attack the target i want to. Must be pretty decent in PvE stuff though.

vespers.1759:

i never once mentioned wvwvw in my post.

Tysefol.2017:

Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely agree that guardian is perfect for PvE. But for PvP, & WvW I just feel like a watered down Warrior.

Pretty sure this topic was a PvP/WvW issue, not a PvE one, Regardless, Guardians bring SO much more in line of group support without having to give up much damage in PvE. Almost 100% protection up time with the hammer, massive amounts of boon hand outs for the party, through shouts, EM, Staff, etc. Pretty good condition removal from traited shouts, traited resolve, purging flames. All of which we are far better than warriors at doing, and most of these things are done while still doing damage.

vespers.1759:

i don’t follow… cleric guards have awful DPS even compared to the awful DPS of guards in general.

and in PVE warrs don’t even need the defense since they just melt everything. geting mobbed? that’s np, just use 100b and everything in front of you dies. a guard doesn’t even have half the DPS. i’d rather be able to hit a 16k 100b and not have aegis/f2 than have them and hit a 6-7k WW if i’m lucky.

If you are talking straight PvE, then yes, cleric guards are lacking, pvp/WvW however, that build will destroy a warrior. Warriors are all 1 trick ponies for the most part, dodge whatever skill the use when they pop quickness (100b, killshot, whatever else they might use) and they are pretty much open to whatever you dish at them. Also comparing 100b to WW is a joke, 100b roots you, and only hits mobs infront of you, WW lets you move, hits mobs in a 360 radius around you and shoots projectiles (although random). In something like pvp/wvw this is a huge difference as you are more likely to land the hits of WW on more targets than you are on 100b.

Also, if you really want to talk about burst try a GS / Sword+focus build with full zerkers (which it would take to get those damage numbers on 100b) activate focus #5,then switch weapons, then WW + Judges intervention into someone and let me know what the total damage is from WW and the explosion. (hint: it will be pretty freaking close to that 100b which normally uses the same amount of skills to set up)

Yeah, I ended up moving to BG to play with christos for the week and the mobility issue became very obvious. fighting in a small group against a zerg ended very badly for me a couple times when we needed to retreat, mostly because there were no mobs to hop to using ji or flashing.

I might be able to switch some skills /traits around to help a bit, considering the good buff is alot of healing, so i might be able to throw in a swiftness or stabilty.

Also i have a ton of karma atm so i might be working on a new gear set and build. Something similar to the archon build posted in these forums but a bit different, more focused on massive group might stacking through EM and blast finishers in fire fields. But may end up a little different after i play with it.

There is one downside to this build that does hurt it in group fights as well, the lack of mobility. (which yes i know is an issue with all guardians) However, without any stability or swiftness buff this build is lacking in the ability, if need be, to get away. I would say in group fights that you make sure you have some decent support before fully charging in, and to be prepared to play this build as an all or nothing in group fights since the odds of getting away are somewhat slim.

Pretty much that. The build doesn’t have much AoE to it, other than Torch #5… which is freaking awesome when you can catch a few people in. Other than that It is picking one person off at a time mostly. the nice thing is that generally you will get a few extra hits in with smite or torch or even the sword auto attack that can proc burning on the extra targets. You will find that if you can handle the 1vX battles that once you finish the first one off, the other will be decently hurting just from the passive run off from the burns. If you do see a 1vX battle coming, I do suggest possibly trying to switch to the GS if possible, as the scepter gets worse with more targets. But most of the times you wont have the ability to do so.

I would like to note that sanctuary has a HUGE recharge and also enemies can still hit in the bubble with melee skills if standing next to it. Also i think stability makes it useless, but could be wrong because i rarely ever use it.

Also binding blade is more of an anti running skill than anything, it does not change agro, it doesnt force the mob to attack anyone. And most people/mobs scatter directly after.

Also as far as elixer u, all those skills you get are different combo fields, I would love the smoke field from the thief skill to throw some blast finishers in.

I’m sorry if you think that guardians are some op support class but honestly any class can be amazing with the right builds. I have been blown up by some high damage engineers before and have also had a HELL of a time even coming close to killing others. The same goes for just about any other class.