Guild Wars 2

That fast? not so much, Sadly we dont get the quickness buff so we cant unload like that. however the numbers are very much possible as a glass cannon

Pecar.1236:

1h sword : auto attack have low dps vs other 1h guard weapon his 2 skill need change to leap and zealot defense is good only vs close dont move emeny when emeny start move you miss all attacks so we need change it to use in move

wait… what? sword auto is low dps vs scepter and mace? my sword autos crit for 1.7-1.9k with a 2.4-3k third attack, scepter at most crits for like 1k for me.

Ynna.8769:

A lot of the time, discussions in this forum result in people saying that a Guardian was never intended to X, or Guardians feel like Y, so I thought it would be a good idea to see how the Guardian community sees their (and other’s) Guardians.

I’d also think it would be nice if you explain your choice a bit more. So instead of going: “I think a Guardian fits the wizard archetype because I think it does,” try give examples, mention existing characters or common traits, etc.

As for myself, I think the Guardian fits the following archetypes:

• The Paladin: This one might be obvious, since Guardians share a lot of traits with traditional paladins. Some people (mostly before GW2 came out) say that Guardians’s aren’t paladins, but they’re talking more about gameplay than archetype.
• The Cleric: With clerics, I don’t just mean priests. Yes, they are priests, but they’re also schooled in combat and know their way around a battle-field, although often in supportive roles. The Guardian has a couple of traits that help flesh out this archetype and has access to Maces, which are the traditional weapon of choice.
• The Battle-mage: While I don’t think it’s a perfect fit, the Guardian uses magic to hit people in the face, so some players might be drawn to Guardians for this playstyle.
• The Leader: This somewhat overlaps with the Paladin and the Cleric, but I feel Guardians can be distinct “leaders”, where they use area-control together with shouts to lead a group.

I would honestly say more of a paladin type role, as being able to be the defender, the healer, and the fighter, but a master of none. Clerics in my mind are more of healing type, even though i know that more fighter type clerics do exist. I don’t think battle mage fits them well since guardian obviously is a holy type warrior, and most battle mages are well, just regular mages that know how to fight in melee. The only pther arch-type I could think of that might fit them would be monk, but that would only be based on the ability style, like a smiting semi holy warrior, but the combat is too far off to be considered one, aka no bare handed or melee staff.

Can we please stop making multiple threads on the same thing? we already have the “sword needs a buff” thread. as far as comparing weapons, Mace does lower damage than sword, and has no gap closer, and dont compare 1h to 2h unless you include the offhand possibilities, which is where the sword becomes pretty good both offensively and defensively.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

I intentionally went full healing power just because my research showed that 90% of the community hated it and said it was garbage. Everything else was kind of a fluke; to be honest, I didn’t even realize that retaliation was up 100% of the time and was really helping until I started working on my 1v4 & 1v2 video from a month ago.

I was a noob and I got lucky. :>

same reason i started a 1h sword dps build. half the community gets that it works now, but back when i started it it was garbage and the only guardian was an AH/EM one. though half still believe that still anyways.

Ragnarox.9601:

Shelter nerf or bug?
warrior elementalist hunter can knockdown me when i am using shelter. wtf is going on today?
its suppose to block all attacks when i am using this

Certain attacks are listed as unblockable, and possibly some of those got changed for those classes. not sure though.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/?search=unblockable

The first time I ever fought him I couldn’t figure out how he managed to blow me up like he did. looked back at the combat log and realized that I had blow myself up with ZD and WW.

Depends on the situation. If the enemy is out of range of your sword, but you can still hit with cleansing flame then use it. Also against mesmers and thieves it can be better to help hit them while they are in stealth, and also to wipe clones faster. However you are correct in feeling unsure as it does do less damage than a sword auto attack chain, but it does give alot more in an AoE cone, and an allied condition removal.

Well that explains why I am having issues. Any ETA on a fix for this?

No problem. If you find the build doesnt suit your tastes i would look up amins and oozo as both of them run different dps builds as well. Im not sure what oozo runs other than a hammer build, bit amins runs a 30/10/30/0/0 build with the same weapons I use. However he runs more offensive stats than I do and has close to 100 crit damage. But both him and oozo have drawn some attention as far as dps goes so i would totally look them up.

Edit: oops my bad Oozo runs a offensive support, still his stats are more damage based though so it might be an option for you.

Vegie pizza food + 3 rune stets that increase burn duration + another 15 in zeal will get you to where you need to get that extra tick. The question is if giving up all your rune slots is worth the single extra tick.

Blasino.3128:

After digesting all the thoughts and discussion I made some more changes.

Bash per your suggestions:
- I changed to using Sigil of Generosity for a condition removal
- I changed to SoR for another condition removal
- I changed to retributive armor as the increase in crit chance is worth it
- I changed ruby orbs to beryl orbs

I changed SY to Signet of Judgement. Using this signet with this build means I’m running around 3150 armor (based off the math). I decided to use oils over the stone because it is more DPS, it isn’t by much so either does suffice. I also switched to some valk pieces for the added Health. With any WWW bonuses you should have plenty.

As for the discussion on the ideals of the guardian; well, I agree that we an amazing support profession. I currently have two builds that I run, an offensive orientated / support build and a bunker support build.

After months of playing these two ways, I want something different. Anet gave us the tools to be DPS focused and I want to try and utilize them.

Signet of judgement is another good choice, and one I ran with for a long while. Once you get used to the more offensive style gameply though i found that bane signet was also very much worth it as it gives 90 more power, and gives you that added cc. Also the damage is pretty decent, being able to crit at about 1500 damage.

As far as SoR goes i am up in the air on it. It heals more and gives the added condition removal, but shelter also makes you almost immune for its duration and the synergy with valor 25 is crazy. Timing it during an enemy’s multi hit attacks can net you and easy 8+ stacks of might that lasts for 15 seconds. I love using it on guardians when they WW because it is pretty much the fight ender.

Actually the OP has 2k more health than me due to running soldiers trinkets. I just have more crit instead. I do need to go through though and look at my gear to min/max stats since I kind of just bought my gear and went from there without thinking about what values are best where.

I dont run zerkers at all. well other than one earring. I run knights chest/helm/legs, soldiers gloves/shoulders/boots, Trinkets are valk amulet, 2x knights rings, karka shell, and zerker earring. I still have 2885 armor, and 2 forms of healing (meditation healing and omnomberry pie). I am actually very durable while still being able to damage, and decent damage at that. just because I can’t burst like a warrior doesn’t mean my 1.6-2k sword auto attacks don’t hurt like hell.

Star Ace.5207:

Bakitten291:

Star Ace.5207:

As mentioned above, Battle Presence is more than viable right now. How are they not “fixing” the Guardian?

Symbols won’t be touched.

There are many builds to be tried, not just “one”.

Not everybody runs 30 Valor, nor is it really needed.

So on, and so forth.

To each his/her own.

I kind of laughed a bit at this. The only fully viable non 30 valor build I have seen has been healway. Every damage build requires 30 valor for the crit damage and the self heals. Why? Because our horrible health pool requires us to need those self heals for any type of survivabilty. I have tried many many builds but as it stands there are
Pretty much the x/x/30/20/x builds, the healway builds, and the different variants of 10/30/30/0/0 builds. The only other dps build i know of is 30/x/30/x/x which is posted in this forum as well. Out of all of those only 1 does not require 30 in valor, and that is because it is stacked in healing power so it does not need the self heals.

According to who, though? This is your opinion, own bias, and personal experience, not a fact.

Our horrible health pool is fair-we are not another game’s Paladins/Holy Warrior despite few similarities. Monk+Paragon =/= Paladin class (though it’s fair to see yourself as one-just don’t ask for a higher health pool.) The Guardian Profession is quite powerful with our low hit points as it is.

You mentioned quite a few builds, then say that only Valor and “Healway” (which is an artificial term, as there are MANY, MANY different builds focusing on heals) are the only viable ones (did you notice that?)

Focusing on DPS, which is FAIR, will always trade in some survivability-you can’t have your cake and eat it too (much as focusing on Toughness or Heals will sacrifice something else-this is intended, and fair.)

The builds posted on these forums are not the only builds available.

x/x/x/x/x is not a build-those are traits distributions, and the traits used within the different number combinations are often more than variants. Not every 30 Valor build is the same, even though I still maintain you don’t “need” 30 Valor. Weapon/skill combinations are also part of the build, not just “variations” (to the point you can have whole NEW builds with different weapon/trait selections and exactly the same x/x/x/x/x distribution.)

In short, I do not laugh at your opinion, because I respect it, but it seems to me that you are exaggerating to make your point. Even you know that there are not only two viable builds-you may prefer to play “only two”, but that is your choice (and a fair one at that-just don’t pretend there aren’t any other viable choices just because you won’t use them), and many other players play whatever they want effectively. As soon as we stop looking for whatever is meta and “more powerful/efficient”, and just start enjoying the game with whatever we have fun with, these kind of negative, exaggerated discussions die away.

The above is not intended to offend you, and I was not singling you out-I just know there aren’t “two or three” viable builds,, and wanted to state so; additionally, the Guardian profession has been improved in some areas as well, and people still complain because they keep focusing on the details THEY want improved, being lacking in a more honest perspective.

See the issue is though that specing for DPS as a guardian gets you blown up fast. We dont have the added 8k health that warriors have, we get the better self healing. Sadly, it is all at the end of the valor tree. I have tried running 30/30/10/0/0 myself, sacrificing the self heals, and for 1v1 fights it was great. the second i went into a group fight it was horrible. I can understand sacrificing DPS for survivability, I do that already with my build through my low vitality and loss of boon use.

As I said in my post, i have tried ALOT of builds, as I tend to get bored very easily, and my conclusion is that unless you run a healing power build you are almost required to have 30 in valor. Are there exceptions? of course there are, but out of the most viable builds 95% of them will be 30 valor deep. It is just too strong of a trait line, with defense, offense, and our 2 strongest self heals all in one line. Honestly though I think those skills would be much better suited in the Honor line since that line is almost completely dedicated to healing and support of you and your allies.

Star Ace.5207:

As mentioned above, Battle Presence is more than viable right now. How are they not “fixing” the Guardian?

Symbols won’t be touched.

There are many builds to be tried, not just “one”.

Not everybody runs 30 Valor, nor is it really needed.

So on, and so forth.

To each his/her own.

I kind of laughed a bit at this. The only fully viable non 30 valor build I have seen has been healway. Every damage build requires 30 valor for the crit damage and the self heals. Why? Because our horrible health pool requires us to need those self heals for any type of survivabilty. I have tried many many builds but as it stands there are
Pretty much the x/x/30/20/x builds, the healway builds, and the different variants of 10/30/30/0/0 builds. The only other dps build i know of is 30/x/30/x/x which is posted in this forum as well. Out of all of those only 1 does not require 30 in valor, and that is because it is stacked in healing power so it does not need the self heals.

Thats why you dont nerf or buff things you fix them. The mechanics of things are what need to be adjusted, then you fix the numbers to tune for the changes. It isnt just a “buff me nerf them!” arguement. Its a “please make this usable at the least” one.

kuora.5402:

Like many people said on this thread, play however the hell you want, but most experienced WvW guild/squads will not use DPS guardians with a single piece of zerker at any case, if they have half a brain.

The thing is- guardians fill a role of support, tank and control a lot better than other professions such as warriors or thieves. No matter how you build your guardian to do more DPS, other professions will always outshine you in terms of DPS when they build their class appropriately.

To me, this seems more like a PvE build where you can just faceroll everything.

See I don’t run into that at all, normally the heavy bunker guardian in my guild roams with me because of the damage I can do. Also I really disagree on the control part. we lack ALOT of control, mostly because Wards are pretty broken and need to be fixed. and our control utilities are very lack luster, (spirit hammer is useless now, bane signet is good, signet of wrath has a horrible passive) outside of that we have almost zero control.

As far as other classes’ dps builds I cant really say much. I think the issue is that most people compare guardian damage to warrior and the fact is that most guardians dont go glass cannon like a warrior. I know my damage range is 6k+ on ZD and 5-6k on WW but I really do not know what a warrior’s would be using the same gear as me, and if it would really be higher or not.

After reading through a couple times I have to agree with alot of the OP. There are some things that I would do differently though. I would make Virtue of resolve into your mentioned virtue of altruism. I feel like we really don’t need another defensive virtue, and this would make it something far more active than just gaining health. However in doing this I think the numbers would need to be adjusted, as we are losing out on that passive regen, and also making it slightly weaker if your symbol changes were to go through.

As an added virtue I would like to see something more offensive and possibly snare related. There is an idea that I think would be awesome, but implementing it would be kind of weird. Something along the lines of “whenever you do X amount of damage, you apply a snare to your current target” and make the threshold like 7k or so. This would give a snare to all builds, but would favor the damage builds that need it more, since they could total the damage faster than defense minded builds. Also, make the on use of it do an AoE immobilize for 2-3 seconds. The buff you could get from 5 virtue trait could stay as fury. I think this would help alot with both our mobility, and getting a healing trait out of the valor line to free up some points. And obviously all the numbers regarding it could be adjusted to balance it.

Other than that I pretty much agree with most of the other things, just figured I would throw an added idea in there.

Sorem.9157:

I won’t bother argueing with somebody who can’t use the tools they have. It’ll be like talking to a wall. Lol.

Im sorry but how does that make any sense? I countered points that you made with my own, and pointed out flaws that I felt there are in the guardian’s gameplay. Im not sure how I “cant use the tools we have” even comes into play with this.

There are 2 big issues the guardian class faces. One is our lack of snares for a melee class. Loading one weapon up on CC like they did Hammer is not the way it should have been done, as it forces people to go to a single weapon for it. As far as CC with other weapons, the only other ones are GS #5, which becomes useless outside 600 yards, even if you originally land it, and Scepter immobilize, which is as I stated, on a broken weapon. Other than that we have the Hammer SW, which is useless now, Bane signet, which I use, and signet of Wrath, which is a HORRIBLE signet. Even if you were to run all these at once, you would be gimping your damage very badly. On a bunker build that might be fine, but for the damage builds that need it the most, it just does not work.

The other is our trait diversity. You said that traits are fine, but they really are not. Maybe in respect to single traits you can pick, but as far as full lines not so much. Zeal is a dead line for the most part. GS heals as a grandmaster trait are too weak, the spirit weapon traits are now all wasted, even more so that one is a grandmaster, and was a horrible grand master to begin with. Other than that there are maybe 3 viable traits in the entire line that you might actually consider.

Radiance comes close to suffering the same fate, but is luckily saved by a great 25 point trait, and right hand strength for 1h builds. if you run a 2h build you never go 30 into it.

Valor is honestly our biggest issue trait line though, but in the complete opposite direction. It is too strong, and required for almost every single build we have. 300 tougness, 30% crit damage, 2 of the best self heals we have. (selfless daring being the other when running a HP build) And a ton of useful talents.

Honor Is in a good place I feel, as it is meant to be the support line, and does well on that with symbol healing, selfless daring, and other support options.

Virtues I think could use a bit of a change. Defensively it is another good line, but offensively It feels lacking. the VoJ traits are kinda weak compared to things like stun break on VoC use, and 3x condition removal for the entire party on VoR use. The only offensive utility we get out of the tree is mostly the retaliation, which is a lazy boon that needs some changes anyways. Though, I feel virtues might also be lacking offensively because it is impossible to run to far into it with an offensive build. with 30 in valor being a must, it really limits virtues down because alot of the other points will need to go into radiance to up our crit chance and pick up things like blind exposure or the 25 point talent, and most DPS builds go at least 10 into zeal for extra damage on burning targets. that leaves only 5-15 points depending on how heavy you go into them, which is not enough to come close to the dps orriented talents.

I don’t really understand how mentioning faults of the class is not being able to use the tools we have, when half the tools we have are broken or poorly implemented. Don’t get me wrong, the class can work and be good, the issue is that to do so, we are very limited on what we can and can not use.

lcc.9374:

Not totally true

Even ignoring our superior offensive stats.
Dps guards can get more than 25% burst just from zeal and radiance traits alone over balance guards without points in Zeal and Radiance. Not taking into account our blind vulnerability procs with leap of faith and Voj procs. And Leap of faith procs are a bit buggy in that it sometimes gives more than 3 vulnerability procs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind_Exposure

And also your skill choices affect the results too
I also charge up with staff 4 and pop save yourselves before i go in.

So realistically we dont do the same dps

And here are the stats of a true glass cannon guardian hitting you in WvW
complete with staff 4 buff, save yourselves, sigils, food and oil

Most people just roll over and die in face of 3800 attack, 96%crit chance and 107%crit damage

So…. much….. zerkers…..

I could not even think of going that dps orriented personally, Like to charge into groups to break lines a bit too much for it, but god those are some pretty nice stats. I would ask if maybe sharpening stones are better than oil in that case, but I guess with the low defensive stats the swing would not make that much of a difference. Also what food? I am assuming butternut squash soup?

Archer.1658:

By all means play the class the way you want. Just note that it isn’t going to be effective. No matter how good a “dps” guardian seems, a balance will always outshine it. My Stats just to brag: 3050 Attack, 3100 Armor, 70% Crit Damage, 31% Crit Chance, 17k Life. No Food either. Not only am I more “tanky” but I dish out practically dish out the same dps. But again, its impossible to impose the way you play on others. So go ahead and play a guardian like a warrior.

See, you dont dish out the same damage, not even close. We have the same attack, I have more crit damage. but i have about 40% more crit than you do with 1h sword and it matters big time. I don’t think you realize how much more that scales between the attack/crit damage. Even more, assuming you are running a standard bunker build with AH/EM you most likely don’t have fiery wrath which gives me 10% extra damage on burning foes, and the Blind Explosure trait like ICC mentioned. I can get 12 stacks up on the sword while using focus before I even use burst skills, Thats 22% extra damage I can burst on someone 25% if I switch over to GS in the process. at about 6-9 stacks my sword auto attacks are doing close to 2k damage with a 3k last hit, Even higher on glass cannons.

As far as defenses go yes, you might be more tanky up front but I have a TON of health regen through crits, virtue, and meditation healing. Of which the crits only become stronger with more targets. Thieves have never one shot me, 100b has never even come close, even while getting jumped out of nowhere with it.

Honestly this will most likely be my last post in regards to you, as I am rather sick of arguing the effectiveness of these types of builds. Countless people have said and shown otherwise. And as far as “playing like a warrior” No, We are playing like a damage build guardian. I’m sorry if you can’t grasp that concept, but to go into almost every thread about a guardian DPS build and tell everyone they are playing the wrong way is ridiculous, and I honestly think you are doing nothing more than trolling with it at this point. If it does not match how you feel the guardian plays, why do you even go into threads like this? You seem so adamant against them, why bother with them?

Archer.1658:

Too much focus on DPS. You would get 2 shot by any glass cannon thief and 1 shot by any glass cannon warrior. You shouldn’t be playing guardian as a warrior. I also see a huge lack of condition removal.

Actually you are wrong, love getting jumped by thieves since I can 2 shot them, also I have never been one shot by a warrior even when eating a full 100b. And how about we let people play the class how they want to. Instead of telling people what they should or should not do with the class.

Annnnnyways. I should update that guide some. I switched some sigils and went to omnomberry pies to complement the monks focus on the build. I run accuracy/generosity on sword/focus and run generosity on my GS as well. I dropped contemplation of purity for bane signet, and switched my valor traits to condition removal, toughness to perc and kept monk’s focus.

Also i dropped the sword damage trait for signet cooldown, but could also replace it with signet removes condition if you still feel you suffer conditions too much. Also i switched to straight beryl orbs in my armor, since i wanted the added vit/crit damage. And finally I moved to sharpening stones because it was an overall damage increase over the oil.

So now the build has 3 forms of condition removal (2 every 10 seconds and a 20 second on demand, 2 healing sources (food/ meditations) and added passive power with an on use CC that does decent damage (crits for about 1.5k for me) I sit around 70% crit with 1hand sword and about 45 ish with the GS. 3k attack with 1h, 3.1 with gs, 2800ish armor and 13.5k health with 1h and around 15k with GS (gs is valk, cant rember if i mentioned that in the build)

Sorem.9157:

1) What i said on firsthand is far from true in PvP indeed, when you’re into PvP, you wont sit and dps one target for a long time. Don’t get me wrong, i agree totally with you here. Indeed it was a bad way to express myself, maybe simply because i thought it was too obvious to mention it.

2) The Guardian traits are indeed fine. There are kittenloads of posts around the forum that are saying that Warriors have THIS trait that is better than our version of it.

3) Being able to lock somebody on your symbol from ranged would make it simply far too overpower. Symbols are fine the way they are. Guardian isn’t meant to be a ranged class, at this point it should be evident to everyone.

3) Sword and Scepter do have some serious flaws.

4) I never said i didn’t think so. People claim that virtues are too weak when they can provide great changes on the battle, be it solo or group.

5) Gap closers, Mediations. Warrior’s burst, as you said yourself, is easier to avoid than ours, that should make us even, no ?

6) They shine in different areas. I’m secure of my skill with the Guardian, i’m saying both classes have different playstyles. >TO ME<, again, TO ME, the Guardian feels stronger because of the fact it suits me better.

7) I won’t bother replying that. Dealing with it is better than QQing at the forums about it.

Not this type of thread again… oh well I guess I will bite.

2)Guardian Traits are NOT fine. When it is almost mandatory from a defensive and offensive standpoint to spec 30 into a trait line for almost every build, its an issue.

3) Yes, because having that symbol do 1 tick of damage is worth wasting your time to even cast it… Symbols are weak because we have almost zero ways to keep people inside them. Both allies and enemies for that fact. Also, as far as not being meant to be ranged, I can understand, however, that doesn’t help the fact that we have limited ways to keep people next to us without using long cooldowns.

3-2) Scepter could use a boost, I still argue that Sword is OK as is, (though it COULD use a little more damage on the #2 ability) But this is coming from someone who has pretty much focused on making builds around the 1h sword.

4) This once again comes down to traits. Virtues can be very strong when traited for them. Sadly the only way you can get into virtues far enough to make a difference is with a bunker build. I don’t think I have seen any DPS builds that have been able to go past 5 in virtues without sacrificing a ton of damage. And this all comes back to requiring the 30 in valor.

5) This I would say is off. In some cases yes, warriors have a harder time landing burst because it is honestly very predictable. quickness + 100b is so common its kind of sickening so most good players watch for it. However I would say that warriors do have an easier time landing attacks because of their amount of control through cripples, knockdowns and immobilizes. Something we lack desperately. Gap closers and whatnot are fine, but even if you leap of faith into a WW, that person is still running fast enough to make you miss almost all of the attack.

Overall I think Both classes do have their own unique feel and gameplay, and each can hold their own. The issue is that for an almost strictly melee class, guardians just don’t have the skills to keep up and keep damage on people. This is also an issue with us having zero ranged options as well.

Alarox.4590:

Just going to point this out. Light field =/= healing. Actually, Light Fields are entirely unrelated to healing in any way.

Saw it, knew someone would point it out, was too lazy at the time :P

Playing from a little after release I have to agree. So far from my perspective they killed 1h AH builds, SW builds, STILL have not given us a viable ranged weapon, and have not given us any way to help stay on people in pvp. As far as buffs, alot of them were not really buffs but actually bug fixes (such as Battle Presence being fixed for immunity and correctly working with the virtue trait) However other things such as Pure of Voice are still broken for half of the skills that use it. Also things Like glacial heart, and almost all of the Zeal tree just lay there as dead pointless traits.

bri.2359:

Alarox.4590:

Bakitten291:

I think alot of people are drawn to the class also because of the paladin/magical warrior concept.

I’m in it for the magic infused melee brawler concept.

This is closer to the reason why I chose an alt guardian.

My ranger does a decent enough greatsword, so the big sword thing wasn’t the draw. I wanted to try a more melee oriented class that had something else besides mindless auto-attacking.

My usual class preferences are stealthy ranged classes, so a guardian was a big departure for me.

Oh, and I really do not like the goody paladin-type class, and seems to be what was intended with the guardian in gw2. I prefer the fallen knight image much more, so I use the Bandit skins on most of my weapons to add the effect. Tying to find a heavy armour set to match the theme, but not much luck …

I use the orr karma shoulders/gloves/boots along with the koda leggings and draconic chest on mine. Mostly in midnight green(as close to black that I have) and a dark blue for the legs. Gives a very good dark knight impression in my opinion. Also use molten sword and the flame legion GS skin also gives it a darker feel.

Yaki.9563:

Alarox.4590:

Yaki.9563:

Alarox.4590:

It’s part people being idiots, and part people knowing that most Guardians run healing/support builds.

AFKhammer isn’t a healing build. I’m not sure why people keep thinking that AH makes them some kind of group healer.

AH itself has absolutely nothing to do with benefiting allies.

However, the purpose of AH is to make yourself tanky, and to do so you have to spam boons. Using a Hammer means you’ll be spamming Retal+Protection, and you probably have Shouts, Empowering Might, and points in Virtues. Therefore, it’s a support build.

Most Guardians run this kind of a build because:

1.) They’re used to being a tank in other games.
2.) They’re used to being healers/support in other games, and 30 Valor allows them to stay tanky while still being heavy support.
3.) They’re offensive minded but recognize that 30 Valor trumps almost everything else.

It’s still not a healing build. Support, sure…but what Guardian build isn’t support?

I’m pretty sure most people play Guardians because they get to swing a big hammer/sword and do DPS while being loved by groups. It’s the best of both worlds. If you took away the damage and forced a real heal role or real tank role on them, most Guardians would bail and go play Warrior (which is the other “swing big weapon” alternative and equally as popular as Guardian).

Tanks and healers are scarce in other games. All of a sudden the most popular class in the healerless and tankless game is because people like to tank and heal? I think not.

The answer of your first question would be my build! >.>

I think alot of people are drawn to the class also because of the paladin/magical warrior concept. Always been a fan of those styles of character which is what drew me to the character, just like the paladin in WoW (ran ret, didnt tank/heal) And almost any dark knight class in other RPGs.

Rayya.2591:

Bakitten291:

Rayya.2591:

why would anybody invite an guardian intro party, if you do not waste your utility’s to safe them ?
I’ve been saved countless times by guardians in dungeons , when all party wass bellow 20% hp and he make us full hp
i’ve also runned with pug guardians in party, never had an single protection boon, not an regeneration or wall of reflection in front of me.
So on short :
An guardian who use : save yourselves / judge’s intervention /purging flames , MI ,COP , smite condition, renewed focus in dungeon party, persoanly i consider them pugs

Ok wait a second. Save yourselves is great for group support as it pulls conditions to the guardian, possibly saving someone from condition death, purging flames does damage, cures conditions and is a fire field so you can blast finish in it to give might. Renewed focus is EXTREMELY strong in groups while running 20 in virtues, since it gives you double use of virtues of which one gives 3 stacks of might, another gives regen, an upfront heal, and can remove 3 conditions FROM EVERYONE, and the other gives a complete attack negation and protection on everyone.

Oh please , you can compare the utility of SY in an group ? pulls conditions every 48 seconds, with hold the line 6 sec of protection and 10 regeneration every 24 seconds ?
renewed focus is poor compared with tome of courage , no matter how you make the comparations: you can heal party members from near dead to full hp , and keep them healed for 20 seconds
purging flames do damage ? can you even take in consideration that damage when an warrior hit 3 targets for over 20k damage with HB ? and you waste an utility slot for DOT
if you really want to remove conditions you can use soldier runes, and remove them fine with shouts, but the problem in dungeons ( fracals ) is direct damage and CC, and there are only few guardians that apply protection and stability.

Ok, since you failed to read, Purging flames does damage, CURES CONDITIONS, AND IS A FIRE FIELD, which guess what, is great for giving AoE might stacks to people. As far as SY, yes I do use it for group support. It works great for Cliffside fractal on the first fight, take everyone’s conditions and cleanse them off myself.

Renewed focus is still a great elite for groups when traited into virtues regardlesss of what you think. Going 30 into virtues even gives you an AoE stun break, which with renewed focus you can use twice pretty quickly, ontop of everything else you get from boons. You can also trait for Stability off of Virtue of courage use too, so actually Renewed focus is more versitile since you can spec for multiple different virtue effects with it.

Also, who said anything about not using other utilities? You could easily run Purging flames, SY, and HTL and still run soldier runes to great effect. Just because you don’t see the use in certain abilities does not mean they are useless for everyone.

Rayya.2591:

why would anybody invite an guardian intro party, if you do not waste your utility’s to safe them ?
I’ve been saved countless times by guardians in dungeons , when all party wass bellow 20% hp and he make us full hp
i’ve also runned with pug guardians in party, never had an single protection boon, not an regeneration or wall of reflection in front of me.
So on short :
An guardian who use : save yourselves / judge’s intervention /purging flames , MI ,COP , smite condition, renewed focus in dungeon party, persoanly i consider them pugs

Ok wait a second. Save yourselves is great for group support as it pulls conditions to the guardian, possibly saving someone from condition death, purging flames does damage, cures conditions and is a fire field so you can blast finish in it to give might. Renewed focus is EXTREMELY strong in groups while running 20 in virtues, since it gives you double use of virtues of which one gives 3 stacks of might, another gives regen, an upfront heal, and can remove 3 conditions FROM EVERYONE, and the other gives a complete attack negation and protection on everyone.

Alarox.4590:

Bakitten291:

snip

I actually love the Torch, but I also think skill 5 is really unbalanced because of the low damage output (less than the auto-attack). Can you honestly tell me you would rather have Torch 5 over Whirling Wrath if you could pick one or the other (excluding all other variables)?

I just want the Guardian to have real balance, even internally.

EDIT: I’m off-topic. Let’s redirect the conversation back to the sword.

I use GS/ Sword+torch So I don’t have to >.> Would I prefer WW? Yes, but the #5 skill does have its place as well, and helps make up for the AoElessness (yay making up words) of the Sword.

Alarox.4590:

Bakitten291:

A) you are never getting 14 hits unless your lucky.
B) torch 4 can crit for just as much damage as a full WW at 1200 range.
C) think the guy meant torch 5, but you also get the added effect of cleansing allies, and more hits = more procs of on crit attacks.

A) The damage listed is actually only for 9 hits, so to reach that level of damage you don’t even need to hit with all. It’s easy to get most of the hits.

B) No it can’t, unless you have a low critical chance and thus deal little damage with WW, and then get a lucky crit with torch 4.

C) Torch 5 is nothing compared to WW for damage, as I’ve already shown, and taking into account on-crit effects WW benefits more. WW lasts basically 1s, torch 5 lasts 3s. However, they both hit about the same amount of times. Meaning, you can pop WW then hop back to auto attack or other skills, while Torch 5 keeps you locked for 3s, meaning you’ll still get more hits with the GS.

Torch #4 crits for 5-6k for me, WW gets about the same, and I run a High crit build. Also It applies burning, which increases all of my damage by 10% Also, once again Torch 5 also clears conditions on people while doing damage. Also torch 5 has a longer range, and does not limit your movement at all, where as one dodge roll can negate all of WW damage. There are advantages to both Skills, but shunning torch 5 when it is a comparable AoE doesn’t make any sense.

Archer.1658:

Forget swords. I rather have them focus on GS and Hammer and stabilize them. GS + Hammer is the best combo for cc + dps.

Because it is great to force a class to require only 2 weapons out of the 9 they can possibly use. Yay build diversity right?

Alarox.4590:

Obtena.7952:

Torch #4 is better than the GS AOE: it doesn’t miss and it’s not limited to a certain number of hits.

I literally laughed.

---

Whirling Wrath:
1251+ damage (actual damage is significantly higher http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath)
1668 DPS
8-10s cooldown
360 degrees
14 total hits

Cleansing Flame:
1000 damage
235 DPS
12.75-15s cooldown
Frontal cone
10 total hits

Whirling Wrath is significantly better.

A) you are never getting 14 hits unless your lucky.
B) torch 4 can crit for just as much damage as a full WW at 1200 range.
C) think the guy meant torch 5, but you also get the added effect of cleansing allies, and more hits = more procs of on crit attacks.

Its is a bit less bursty but the 100 extra power is nice. I already run 50% crit on my sword as it is so adding more is not a full on requirement for me. However i do plan on going back to 10/30/30/0/0 to compare damage again to see which feels better.

Silver.8023:

I think it’s amusing that people think that if we got the kind of cripples that Warrior gets, we’d be overpowered.
Go here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cripple

Look at the distribution of cripple amongst the professions. You’ll find that every other profession, with the exception of Engineer (which I’m sure is another thread altogether as well, they still get cripples though) is able to easily administer cripple, regardless of traits, to about the same effect as Warriors are able to!
This is not even counting stuns and knockdowns.
Heck, you have to scroll down half the page before you even see the Guardian icon! You’ll notice, the only skills that inflict cripple are an underwater downed skill and an elite tome skill. Hardly practical.

So every other profession has about three (average across professions, only one on Engineer) weapon skills across all their available weapons on short cooldowns, while having higher mobility, being able to build to be hard to kill and this seems to be considered fine, yet the thought of Guardian getting a cripple makes us overpowered? What the heck?!

Being good at support is no trade-off for not being able to snare a foe, as someone stated earlier, Warrior shout healing builds heal everyone (up to five others) at a faster rate than Guardians and don’t require their allies to remain in a small area of effect. Elementalists can bring insane support and they still have access to cripples (and chills). Elementalists can be insanely hard to kill and they still have access to cripples (and chills), see where this is going?

I’m not going to compare the other professions any further, the purpose of this thread is to compare Guardian and Warrior as they are the most similar in playstyle (yes, I know they still play differently). ArenaNet devs even stated that both Warrior and Guardian need to be in melee range to deal their damage the most effectively, however, only Warrior can maintain it without gimping their build.

What is really scary is adding in the Stun/knockdown/immobilize/daze/chill lists to that. Then you begin to realize how bad guardians really are at control mechanics as a whole.

Danicco.3568:

I’m not considering offhand skills, just by comparing each skills to their relative (autoattack, burst and gap closer) the Greatsword is superior in all of them.
It is also superior with trait synergy.

The only thing the sword has for it is the extra hits due it’s fast attack, but even this is neglected if you consider the Greatsword’s Symbol which also counts as hits for proccing Virtue of Justice.

Example case:
I’m currently facing 4~5 risen per pull and I almost die if I take them on with a Sword & Something. With a Greatsword they die in 3~4 seconds.
If I face a single mob, I take the same time or longer than using a Greatsword.
And if I’m facing an enemy that relies heavily on projectiles, the Sword’s Zealot Defense isn’t reliable alone, so the same mechanic I’ll apply to this fight can be used with a Greatsword with superior results.

So, please, buff Swords.

Ok are we just talking PvE here or pvp? because Pvp those symbol hits are never going to happen, Also regardless you are once again counting symbol hits as “making up” for the attack speed. If we want to go that route Ill take torch #5 which can hit up to 5 enemies 10 times each for better VoJ activation, while also cleansing debuffs on allies.

As I said before, In a group fight GS will shine, since that is kind of its point. In a one on one fight a sword + offhand will do better just because of the versatility of having the offhand. In PvE I run sword+focus /GS just because of the amount of killing power I get from both weapons.

As far as trait synergy goes, it once again depends on your build and offhand. I run a 20/20/30/0/0 build and the Sword works amazingly with it. With focus offhand I get extra blinds that give more vulnerability, and a 3block blast finisher that each block adds a stack of 15s long might, or it blows up for 5k+ damage. If I run torch I get the AoE damage from #5, and the burst damage from #4 that also increases my damage due to the 10% added damage from burning trait.

I really don’t get why people only look at the sword and say its weak, Everyone really needs to start looking at the full package that comes with off hands and the huge amount of synergy that comes with that. Not only with traits but between the weapons themselves

You cant compare the 4/5 skills for sword/gs just because You can vary those depending on your build. Sword auto attack is actually very strong because of the speed and number off attacks. 3hits in 2.5 seconds for GS vs kittens in 2.5 for sword. This allows sword to crit more which helps certain traits and food. They both have gap closers on #2 that add aoe blind, gs does more damage and is a leap finisher, but sword ignores movement restriction through being a shadow step. The only thing i would change there is a bit more damage on flashing blade.

1. are both burst skills that do about the same damage. WW has AoE and a bit of movement while ZD roots you and is single target, however ZD also absorbs projectiles and has a longer, though semi unreliable range. Overall though both weapons are on pretty good terms, sword is more single target while GS is more group, but the off hand choice I think makes sword far more versitile than gs

So…. They listed numbers that should be there already. And finally fixed sword wave and battle presence. With all of our other issues im not sure if I should be happy for the fixes or upset for the lack of other fixes. Namely OUR FREAKING SCEPTER.

We also need to just set fire to the valor tree honestly. Almost every build except for the healway requires 30 in it to be effective regardless if it is dps or tank. Is there any other class that requires this?

ErraticFaith.9142:

Fortunately interpretation is individual, what I ment and what you think I ment, not really that important to me.

Guardians dont have too little offence for their defence lol, because of that they shouldnt have warrior control. If they did it would be OP.

Why change guardians role indeed. Just use your brain and role something thats orientated to work well for that role, instead of expecting godmode from a support class.

Some of us actually like our class and dont want to reroll. And I am sorry but giving the reroll as an answer is not good enough. As far as saying we want godmode as a support class is rather wrong as well. No other class is labeled as a straight “support class” so why should guardian? We have offensive potential, but the issue is our lack of ability to stay on a target no matter what spec you go with.

Vitu.3580:

Ganzo.5079:

Warrior can be as supportive as the guardian if he use Shouts or banners, and warhorn.
Just like a guardian is supportive if he use Shouts, consecrations or a staff. we have simbols, but only few poeple go to the simbol to take a buff)

Look at every ability a guardian has access to:

Shouts, symbols, consecrations, meditations, virtues, spirit weapons, signets, even the weapon skills.

How many of those only affect the Guardian? Even untraited, how many only affect the guardian? The answer: Not many.

Now look at Warriors. Besides their shouts, and their banner everything else is focused solely on doing damage or immobilizing their target in one way or another.

A support Guardian, as far as healing and booning is concerned, is far far superior to a support Warrior.

Ganzo.5079:

Guardian are more Group oriented due to the traitline, but this is not a justification for the lack of mobility\control\range.
The comparation with warriors is actually quite good. We have to do melee damage to kill an enemy, just like the others, but actually we are not in a good spot to fulfill this damage role. (WvW talking)

What do Guards and Warriors have in common?
-Heavy Armor
-Melee Weapons

Besides that they are completely different classes with completely different styles of play.

Would you say an Engineer needs more access to stealth because a Thief has access to stealth? They both wear medium armor and use ranged attacks

Would you say a Necromancer needs access to confusion because a Mesmer has access to confusion? They both wear light armor and use ranged attacks.

Guards and Warriors – though they have very few similarities – are very different classes, and comparing them to one another as if they are not is an unwise method to resolve balance issues.

See I dont believe this is correct, the comparison is needed because we are both VERY melee heavy classes, with guardians have almost zero ranged options. I honestly look at it as though theif should be the ultimate melee mobilty, warrior a mix of mobility and snaring, and guardians as the “i might not be mobile but you arent going anywhere either.” but the issue is that our counterpart in warriors have good mobility and lockdown while we have neither. And this leaves us at a huge disadvantage despite warriors having more damage and close to the same survivabilty. (stupid giant health difference)

Also i disagree as far as support guards vs warriors go. Guardians are the hands down defensive support specialists while warriors are more offensive. I would kill to get afury buff other than save yourselves personally.

Heinel.6548:

It’s unfortunate that a more convincing case isn’t made for homogenized weapons.

I think a lot of people actually are arguing for this (even if they don’t realize it themselves). Bash is ready to take an efficiency decrease in favor of all weapons getting hinder, for example. Never mind that hindering is not needed in PvE and mace is still the premier weapon for rolling through pve with your eyes closed and hands tied to your back.

See the issue here is we have two different ideas of efficiency here. Losing some damage to gain a snare in my mind would be gaining efficiency, since our damage is mostly about sustained preasure. Also most of my listed ideas were targeted at certain areas where I believe we could use some change, such as cutting down our retaliation uptime for snare, making a currently broken trait usable for most specs which choose to take it, and a trait to help zeal which would massively boost build diversity and help the dps build set that needs it the most.

Trust me in saying that I know what guardian burst is capable of. I spend 95% of my time as damage specs trying to make some good workable builds. The issue though, is that our damage is still very much sustained damage. WW and ZD are our only true burst abilities, outside of that it is pretty much auto attack spam. Which does us no good with constantly moving targets.

Yeah, I have switched up my builds alot lately. I pretty much abandoned the burn aspect of the build because overall the damage was not worth it. Sticking 6x beryl jewels gave more of a damage increase than trying to go condition based ever seemed to, so I am back running a straight damage build.

As far as it goes I tried out a high crit 30/30/10/0/0 build and found the damage to be amazing. It worked great for 1v1 roaming fights, the second a group was introduced though I quickly dropped it due to dropping like a rock and any second source of damage. I then moved to the 20/30/20/0/0 build you mentioned, found the damage was about the same (a little bit less obviously) and the survivability was a bit better, however with only healing by omnomberry pie procs the build required you to be able to constantly hit, which is obviously an issue if we get kited (which happens alot.)

At the moment though I am running a 20/20/30/0/0 Build and loving it. The damage is strong though a bit more random due to lower crit, but it has good survivabilty again due to picking up monk’s focus. Sadly in the end I could not escape the 30 in valor, and trust me, like you I have been trying to do so.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Mug doing any more than 2500 dmg max is stupid.

It’s a 10 point trait…

Things they broke and haven’t fixed yet, if they ever do.

Heinel.6548:

So there’s still a fundamental difference between the camp that thinks guardian is adequate in keeping people in melee range (for the most part, RTL is an anomaly and deserves a nerf, rather than changes to guardian) and the camp that thinks guardian is an ineffective killer.

Continue on then.

This… confuses me, to say the least. What camp thinks guardian is adequate for keeping people in range? The only person that seems to have thought that so far has been you, and even then you said it pretty much requires GS/Hammer to do, which is pretty much saying we are broken because to play a melee class, you have to rely on only 2 of the many weapons we can use.

Heinel.6548:

Well, I actually find guardian hindering and mobility abilities are quite adequate already. We have enough to hold someone in a 1v1 down until one side gets downed and that’s really what’s important IMO. It does lock you to GS/Hammer combo, and the skill ceiling for the build is arguably higher than D/D eles and such, but if you look at the other weapons, mace has such crazy healing, sword has a short cooldown teleport (ignore all cripple, not that many classes can actually do this), and what else? Scepter and staff are the ones that I find to be bad, but arguably those are not supposed to be combat weapons. I think they could be revamped, but look at the thread that calls for staff revamp.

The thing that I think the symbol gives chill on pulse suggestion can accomplish, is to give guardians a different playstyle. Mass CC or group hinder, sort of similar to the function staff eles and necros can perform. (Also why I thought it should be GM major trait, since this is suppose to be about breadth of builds, not a linear power increase)

Reason being, at the end of the day, the guardian is not a versatile class in a game where every prof is supposed to be versatile. No one can deny that. There’s a couple things you can do with the guardian, either make it into a 1v1 duelist, that can only 1v1 and nothing else. At most you can 1v2 bad players, but you aren’t contributing in any other ways. Then you can be a bunker with some group support, that will in most cases die when the battle is drawn on long enough or you are singled out. You have little hope of actually killing anything.

The thing about traits that add additional effects, is not about you trying to stack anything and everything into VoJ, but it’s a choice. You won’t get too much out of just investing everything into VoJ since it’s still something that you use every 20-30 seconds, but maybe it can compliment your playstyle. The same goes with the adept honor traits regarding aegis. With an HP set up, aegis heals is better, with a boon set up, aegis gives retaliation is better.

Are traits that alter abilities the ultimate solution to all guardian woes? Proabably not, hence why the discussion, but in thinking about what traits should do, I think people had skipped a higher level question—What do you want snares for? Do you want to play your guardian differently than the bunker builds out there? If the answer is just that you wanted a different build to play with, then the first thing you should focus on is what type of role do you want your character to fulfill, then suggest things that support that direction, it may be to add snares somewhere, or it may be something totally different. This “add snares to everything” BS has gone on long enough. It’s not going to happen, or if it’s going to happen, then it will come with a DPS cut. It’s not productive. It’s about time we find real solutions.

I would take a DPS cut for the snares TBH. The real issue is our utter lack of mobility. We have at most 2 600 yard leaps and one 1200 teleport on a long CD. other than that we have nothing to keep up with people at all. For a class that is supposed to be melee heavy we sure as hell have an issue with keeping people in melee range. That is the real reason behind this thread. And once again, I am not saying add snares to everything. I would just love a way to actually be able to keep up with someone once and a while. Between everyone else having great escape skills to others having the move signet. Unless we want to gimp ourselves by running retreat and staff we have no chance of catching people, and even when we run those people /still/ get away from fights that they would die in from any other class.

And the point of my post was not to say “we should stack everything on certain abilities” It was to point out that we have SO MANY things added on to our skills already there is barely any room to do more. I would lose half of those things just to get a snare on some abilities, even if something like Blind causes Vuln is a huge damage boost to my build.

And once again I had said before that the things i listed were just suggestions that I came up with that could benefit multiple builds, which is the BIGGEST issue with this. Trying to find a way to do this to benefit builds without overdoing it for some of them. Sadly I think that it is impossible to do it through symbols because of the way the hammer works, So I worked towards other ideas. And also as I said that any 1 of them could be added, not all of them. It wasn’t just a “add snares to everything” post, It was throwing Ideas out for people to comment on.

But the issue with that is, how do you decide what weapons get the snares, when almost every build/weapon needs more mobility. Keep in mind that any of my suggestions could easily be switched to cripple if need be, I just personally feel that chilling makes more sense for a guardian.

The other Issue about on use chill/cripple is where do we put it? We have so many “added effect” traits its kinda crazy. you can actually trait to the point where something like Virtue of justice activation causes blind, vuln, and gives you and allies 3 stacks of might and you retaliation. Half of our weapon skills also give added effects through traits as well, (vuln/healing on symbols, Vuln when inflicting immobilize, Vuln on blind, Burn on block, might on block, etc) We already have so many that it is hard to justify finding a place to add a snare in there somewhere. The only Condition that we do that doesn’t have an added effect that can be traited at the moment is actually burn. (not counting the +10% damage trait)

So over the last couple days I have been trying to think of new Ideas for our class as far as this issue goes and I have come to one conclusion and a few other ideas.

First off I have figured that adding a snare component to symbols is sadly just not workable because of the hammer. All other weapons would work great but it would sadly make the hammer much too strong as a CC weapon. Adding in a CD to the effect would just damage the usefulness of switching weapons to put down another symbol, which would already have a 9 second penalty of nothing being able to switching back. So here are my new suggestions:

Hot Ice: pretty much the same as said before, Anytime burning condition is applied there is a chance to also apply chill for 1s. but make it a grandmaster Zeal trait with 50%+ chance. Zeal is a pure damage line, so I think that allowing this as a grandmaster will really help since the DPS guardians are the ones needing the most help. Honestly It also could work as a 100% chance with a 2s CD to stop perm chilling.

Glacial Heart revamp: Make it work on all weapons. Lower the Duration to 2s, lower the CD to 15s. This allows easy access to almost all builds, since most are Valor heavy, and also removes the hammer restriction making it useful for any weapon. At the moment the CD I believe is far to strict to make real use of this since it is only single target, so lowering the CD and the Duration to balance it out would make some sense.

Binding Shield: Whenever Aegis on you is broken, inflicts Immobilize (1s) on the person who broke it. 5s CD I would replace the 25% retaliation up time trait in virtues for this. Or maybe even making it the 15 point talent for virtues, since we already have a massive amount of retaliation up time without it. (leap/blast finishers in the tons of light fields we have) This could also work as a snare with a bit longer duration on a longer CD as well. Though this will not help with being aggressive towards other players, It will help with keeping things like P/D thieves closer to us.

Keep In mind I am not saying all of these should be put into our traits, these are just suggestions of possible Ideas. Also these could be switched around in different lines a bit. Binding shield could go in Valor since it is a defensive style trait (though it is more a better replacement for retaliation), while Glacial Heart could move to Zeal (where I think it would honestly make more sense, maybe even radiance because of it being crit based)

The issue with thieves should be fixed soon anyways with the culling updates. I think the biggest issue people have is that they cant see the burst coming at all, so they cant react quick enough when the first hit happens. Having an enemy actually appear next to you should trigger a reaction pretty quickly. (though so should losing half your health so maybe it wont. >.>)

See the issue I have with snares on weapons is that we honestly do have somewhat of a counter to being kited called Retaliation. There are ALOT of traits/skills that give us it and going 15 into virtues alone keeps it up almost 100% of the time. After some thought I do believe that the snares should go to the more DPS set builds, as 95% of them cant dip that far into virtues without sacrificing required traits. And even then most lack the health/toughness to utilize retaliation like a bunker build can.

Overall I think if we fixed scepter (which we have been asking for since the game came out) and put the snare in zeal things would balance out well for guardians. People would have to choose between the chill trait or the retaliation traits in virtues with the standard x/x/30/20/x builds, Dps would be able to somewhat stay on targets (assuming the Hot Ice trait that I mentioned) And the retaliation based guardians would have a reliable scepter to help with being kited. Also it would make a good synergy between zeal and the VoJ traits, which currently does not exist at all.

Also as far as AoE issues the only skills that would pose an issue with that would be purging flames, which is on a decent CD, Judges intervention, which only burns once, and the VoJ grandmaster trait in virtues so it would require a 20/x/x/x/30 build to specialize in.