Anyone interested in 10v10 or 15v15, [YARR] of Gandara will try to make a date with you for Monday somewhere in the 7pm to 9pm GMT window.
250 is more than double the stat gain of a full ascended over exotic trinket set. As this becomes more common you’ll see a real combat disadvantage for those who don’t care to grind out WXP with the zerg.
I was only fine with the whole implementation of WXP when the bonuses weren’t all that essential, but now it seems they’re intent on creating must have skills.
You’ll need to read them their vows, JDGE.
Yaaarrrrrrrrr!!!!
I’ve never left my server, although I’ve certainly seen it develop. We’re basically at the point where, during peak hours, guild groups are often the only ones conducting serious operations on enemy borderlands. There was a time when the blue dorito had the most effective force on the map, but now that’s usually only the case after guild groups have split for the night. Night ops are typically just scouting for golem rushes and making sure camps are flipped for upgrades.
There is a fair range in the skill/ability of different guild groups, although VOIP is a basic requirement for most if not all.
Some of the language specific servers do differ in coverage and the prevalence of guild groups, but I think what applies to my server is at least accurate for midtier EU English.
Had much more fun tonight, if the usual reset lag lets up during the week then this will be a good one. It’s best when our guild groups don’t need to converge, had about 4-5 tonight in AG border relieved that we weren’t facing AM or RS.
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If it looks like a zerg and moves like a zerg it probably is a zerg.
Just kidding HAI YAK
You must pray to the Pink Gods, Amelia.
I suspected that was you at the time Denied Goddess, I probably teabagged you at the time instead of bowing. I was just relieved to have the fight over :P
He means magic find gear.
Yep, I’m probably thinking too far back if my impression of EB pugs is 20 people autoattacking an SM outer gate and completely ignoring what the commander is doing on the map.
Hm, must admit that I haven’t given them a look for a while. Maybe all those reset nights with [WvW] have knocked some sense into them.
Yeah, I could talk all day about the stupidity of our zergs too. Have you seen the ones on EB? They’re just awful, either they don’t read the chat or they don’t speak English period.
In other news, and less pertinent to trollbaity troll drucken drucken drucken 1 1 1 1 1…
My asura mesmer was very happy to have one AM thief come and HS spam a couple times to help down that [Ave] ele on EB who just wouldn’t die!
One time, every game is over, even the “real” game of life. So until than, just let´s play.
Blobaddon Guild [BLOB] was founded 3 days ago and what i wanted to say with reaching 200 Member in that short time, is that Abaddon´s Players/ Comunity take it easy, with all that flames and whining in the forum. We realy don´t care and just play the game, maybe with little trolling intension with that new guild ;-)
You say “play the game, have fun, we’re relaxed and don’t waste time flaming and whining”.
The whole point is that we can’t play the game because of all the skill lag created when you guys roll up in a giant blob doing nothing but autoattacking
Also having issues with my tag not turning on or off at times, sometimes coupled with being unable to use team or say chat or squad commands.
Very frustrating to still have so many bugs with basic communication and grouping features 10 months after release.
Approaching an hour now… All the siege will be gone.
Instead of expressing my feelings about AM in an inappropriate manner that would certainly have me infracted, I have decided to channel my energy through RAWK music.
Blob on Through (to the other side) by The PvDoors:
You know the blob destroys our nights,
Blob destroys our days,
Tried to run,
Tried to kite,
Blob on through to the other side,
Blob on through to the other side,
Blob on through to the other side, yeah!
We chased our WXP here,
Grabbed our loot bags there,
Can you still recall,
A time we wiped,
Blob on through to the other side,
Blob!
Everybody
Blobs my Bessie,
Everybody
Blobs my Bessie,
She gets nigh!
She gets nigh!
Blobbbbbed!!!
I found an AC in your keep!
Bali in your camp!
AC that spammed,
Bali that split,
Blob on through to the other side,
Blob on through to the other side,
Blob on through, oh blooooobbbb!
Blobbed our foes, week to week,
Day to day, hour to hour,
Gate is down,
Grab your WXP,
Blob on through to the other side,
Blob on through to the other side,
Blob blob blob blob blob blob blob blob blob
Hey, I made a similar thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Less-Siege-Not-More/first) because I was also a little frustrated by that blog post. I would love to have your suggestions added, and I definitely agree that tweaking of profession skills is something that could help.
Personally I felt that focusing on the terrain and map layouts was probably the best way that the devs could really help the game.
Guys, let’s all settle down and enjoy one of my favourite folk songs. I bet you know it, it’s Blob Dylan’s “Blobbing in the Wind”.
How many guilds must a blob blob down,
Before you can call it a blob?
How many keeps must a zerger cap,
Before he’s bored with his WXP?
Yes, and how many buffs must the arrow cart gain,
Before they’re forever spammed?
The answer, my blob, is blobbing in the wind,
The answer is blobbing in the wind.
How many years can a blob train exist,
Before it is done its PvD?
Yes, and how many years can some people exist,
Before they get bored of blobbing?
Yes, and how many how many times must a man turn his head,
And pretend that he just doesn’t blob?
The answer, my blob, is blobbing in the wind,
The answer is blobbing in the wind.
How many times must a man press heal,
Before he can actually heal?
Yes, and how many skills must one man have,
If all he does is blob?
Yes, and how many blobs will it take til he knows,
That too many people have blobbed?
The answer, my blob, is blobbing in the wind.
The answer is blobbing in the wind.
This thread is supposed to be more of a, “What’s the best thing the devs can do to limit the power of zergs?” rather than a slugfest between proponents of organized group combat and proponents of siegecraft.
I’m really regretting the direction Raf has yanked my thread towards.
I was addressing Xenn. Not you. That said, what makes you think that limited contact with a few guilds on your server is indicative of world-wide opinion? I’d say that was an extremely limited sampling bordering on outright heresay.
Siegecraft is as much a skill as anything else in this game. I think you’ve got it backwards. The game was designed around the deployment and use of that equipment in combat situations. Also, Siege is not an environmental weapon..at least as ANet uses the term.
Choosing to not utilize siege and focusing on player combat is a personal choice that can be made in this game regardless of siegecraft as it stands now. The game doesn’t have to be changed for you to do that.
Personally, I’m pretty excited to see the siege concepts they have up their dev sleeves.
Raf, by saying “you or the OP”, you were addressing me, so allow me to respond.
I’ll speak with as much authority I have and you can speak what as much as you have. My experience represents most if not all of the organized groups on my server, and the experience of a number of guilds we’ve encountered from other servers, but even then I have already acknowledged the fact that it was a generalization. But if you want to know who I am to make this suggestion (followed up by reasoning), there you have it.
I don’t expect my argument’s strength to be the authority of my position, however, I expect it to be from the rational case I present.
I’m not speaking about siegecraft as it stands now, however I am also not making the assumption that the game’s design as it stands today is optimal. If I were, we wouldn’t be having that discussion. I worry that if siege is too strongly the focus of development, then other approaches to the game will likely become non-viable – this is what I object to. Sure, we can keep doing what we’re doing, but if the developers decide to make new siege skills entirely nullify what we’re doing, then that’s not much of a choice.
I’ve already explained why a focus on siege isn’t a practical way to reduce the effectiveness of zerging. As for skill, you’ve been challenged to provide examples of especially skilful siege deployment. One problem I see with siege deployment is that once you’ve seen an effective deployment, it’s really easy to copy; there’s no steep learning curve.
In my experience skill in group combat is far more difficult to develop and perfect, which is why you see a huge gulf between organized groups of different calibres. My own guild has a long way to go before we can stand toe-to-toe with most. It relies on a lot of factors, including strong group composition, coordination of area effects and fields, the ability to read the opponent and the terrain, and thinking and moving on the fly. It simply draws in more aspects of the game, which I think is fantastic.
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I didn’t follow a basic introduction-content-conclusion format and I explicitly stated the fact. You even quoted the part where I said, “I’ll begin by stating where the objection comes from, then offer some solutions”, yet somehow you assumed that I adopted the usual structure of a argumentative piece.
The sentence Xenn picked was a clear, concise one which was the first prescriptive statement in a section dedicated to proposing solutions. It headed its own paragraph, and it followed some exposition. It is a point I refer to throughout my post, in both the first and second parts.
I’m not sure if you really this much difficulty with reading comprehension or if you’re just trying to get my thread shut down.
Sorry if I generalized too much when I said “organized groups”, it’s obviously a broad category.
Yes, I state here what it is I get out of WvW; I’m making my case to the developers that these elements are an important part of WvW and should not be shuffled to the side. It’s partly a normative statement.
But I also offer a criticism of the solution Devon proposes for what he has already identified as a problem: That numbers are the deciding factor even when nuanced tactics (and strategy) aren’t employed. Devon offers more siege options as the answer, and I explain why that conclusion is flawed. That has nothing to do with my opinion of how the game should be played, it’s simply my logical reasoning.
However, as a guild and community leader regularly in contact with other guilds, and having heard the opinion of number of guilds on this statement specifically, I think I do speak for many of the players whom Devon attempted to address in his statement on the future of WvW. We (those who share my opinions) consider ourselves to be organized groups, but do not agree with his assessment of how WvW should be changed to give dedicated WvW players a better chance against large zergs.
If you want to address my criticisms, stop building strawmen and resorting to personal attacks and explain to me why the strong combat mechanics that this game features should be universally subordinated to a few environmental weapon skills. I enjoy the use of siege in appropriate situations, but I don’t think that it needs to define WvW.
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Sorry caid, I always feel compelled to write provocative thread titles. Then I go and write long posts because I can’t explain my ideas in fewer words and everyone just replies to the thread title.
I’d like to think of the current WvW maps as sort of a trial model. Something that the devs put out to test how the game developed on a large stage and how well it accommodated each kind of player. There are some fantastic elements in these maps, which show the incredible potential of this game – but that’s all it is right now, potential.
They’ve shown us that they have the tools to make an environment where zergers, roaming guilds, and solo players alike can have an impact. Now they need to examine their successes and failures and build a fully engaging WvW environment from the ground up.
I don’t think adding a separate GvG is really what we need for organized guilds or WvW as a whole. I know there are people who disagree, but with that kind of arena mode you lose all the unpredictability which is the true excitement of WvW. It’ll also be a loss for those who choose to stick to WvW, every WvW community will suffer tremendously if its guilds move on. If WvW becomes catered more to casuals, there is less depth for those who stay to develop as players and ultimately they’ll get bored and move on as well.
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I agree that every kind of player should be able to find a way to contribute to WvW. But if one new player can use an AC to beat an organized group in the open field, then any player can use an AC to beat an organized group in the open field, which simply makes that kind of organization in this game obsolete.
If Anet wants this game to keep players engaged for years, it needs to have the depth that will keep players’ interest. Introducing siege that neutralizes all the depth of the game’s combat mechanics is not the way to do that.
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I certainly don’t have an objection to siege being part of the strategy of WvW. What I’m trying to communicate is that it’s very misguided say that siege is something organized groups enjoy using and that they would benefit from improvements to siege.
Siege changes must not be the principal solution to the issues we have in WvW.
On our community forums, a number of our guilds are baffled by a couple of nuggets that came out with yesterday’s statement by Devon on WvW:
We will also continue to make changes to siege weapons and introduce new siege weaponry to throw the balance in favor of well-organized groups while retaining the joy of jumping right into things for more casual WvW players.
Holding a tower against all odds with some smart siege placement and a bit of luck may be one of the most fun things I’ve ever done in a video game.
I’ll begin by stating where the objection comes from, then offer some solutions.
Organized groups are not especially interested in using siege in combat (one of Gandara’s most prominent guilds, XxX, hates using any siege altogether), and the most fun you get out of WvW will not be from how you place siege. It’s much more exciting to wipe a large group with coordination, tactics and patience than it is to wipe it with large amounts of siege.
What’s really thrilling about the PvP in WvW is being able to use all your profession skills, coordinate your combo fields and area skills (e.g. warding, feedback), and outmanoeuvre your opponent as a group. You don’t get this by placing an arrow cart or ballista and cycling skills 1-4 while standing in one spot.
Making siege more effective wonn’t give organized groups any particular advantage over zergs either. While the former can manage their supply better, the latter will simply have more of it, and all a zerg needs is one person to drop blueprints so that the organized group has no advantage in siege.
If more effective siege isn’t the answer, what is it that will give smaller, organized groups a better chance in this game?
Watch some videos and you’ll realize that what organized groups want is already in the game, they just need more of it. Organized groups take as much advantage of terrain as they can, whether it’s chokepoints to camps, slopes and cliffs they can loop around on, blind spots, or stairs and walls in towers.
Focus on map design. The current maps are far too open for these terrain elements to be present in many combat situations. That openness also hands the strategic advantage to zergs, who can quickly move from end of the map to the other. While there may be technical limitations on map size, the layouts can and should be adjusted to make it impossible for a single group to control an entire map.
You could try including new terrain elements, like shifting passages (destructible bridges, enchanted forests?), or treacherous mountain passes (think LOTR with opportunities for ambushes). If the terrain were more restricted, towers and keeps could actually exert power over a map.
Making waypoint use more dynamic could also help smaller groups. If you give players a lengthy cooldown on waypoint use, it becomes that much harder for zergs to hop across a map in unison. You could allow scouts to buy shorter cooldowns with WXP, and remove it altogether for outmanned servers. If the map is designed so that it’s that much more difficult to navigate, then you can think about introducing temporary waypoints for attacking teams, in particular for guild groups.
I realize that good map design is one of the most difficult things to do for WvW, but if this game is to be improved it must build on its strengths instead of relying on cheap siege adjustments and novelties. GW2 combat mechanisms are incredibly fun and should not be subordinated to siege in WvW.
I’ve focused on challenges that organized groups could handle more effectively than zergs, without relying on mechanisms that punish players for how large their groups are. I think there are more ideas out there and I’d love to hear them.
TL;DR: If the devs’ long-term goal is to make WvW “about tactical acumen and skill”, they should direct their attention to how map layout and terrain affect the flow of the game rather than making siege weapons excessively dominant.
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When I get off of this mountain
You know where I want to go
Straight down the Mississippi river
To the Gulf of Mexico
To Lake Charles Louisiana
Little Bessie, girl that I once knew
She told me just to come on by
If there’s anything that she could doUp on Cripple Creek, she sends me
If I spring a leak, she mends me
I don’t have to speak, as she defends me
A drunkard’s dream if I ever did see one
I do believe this is the song for Gandara.
If they didn’t want to allow people to use upleveled characters, then they wouldn’t. There’s no need to give an extra disadvantage to upleveled characters, remove that tag.
Eze, stop giving away top secret intelligence!
Some people have suggested that region locking would help. I disagree, as the coverage issues I’ve encountered with the EU servers have nothing to do with the presence/absence of guilds from NA.
Okay, so after much hard work and no small amount of wizardry we are going to get this in for today. We were unable to get the leaderboards fully set up to indicate the matchups, so there will be a disconnect there, but you will see your matchups once you log in.
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
We were hoping to roll out the new matchup system for the next matchups but unfortunately we ran into a few snags. We are working hard to get everything working 100% correctly and tested and should be able to start the new matchups once we’ve checked everything. I’ll make sure to be back to let you all know as far ahead of time as I can. My apologies for the inconvenience.
/dance
Just had this happened to me (as the downed guy). Was a lifesaver actually, leveled a couple seconds after being downed because we had just lost a keep on the other side of the map and I got a failed defense credit.
Forget about it Dius, these guys have completely different motivations. They don’t play for the same reasons we do. They don’t care about the PvP aspect, just the WXP train, their titles, and their loot. It’s not about finding a challenging fight for these guys like it is for us, just gathering the biggest numbers and hoping they grossly outnumber the enemyso that the train never has to stop.
But once Abbadon gets thrown against a higher tier, they’ll be crushed. Everyone knows this, I doubt the AM guys can deny it. Without a dedicated player base or understanding of strategy the WXP trainers will all ditch the game, which is unfortunate for the small minority of real WvW players on the server.
I have no objections, is AM onboard?
Also, the people who play are completely unreasonable. I simply sit behind and tell them, I’m just waiting for the gate to come down so I can take the last poi I need in greenlake. They don’t listen. Their so worried about their achievement crap that they just see me as a free kill and are not willing to help me out one bit.
You realize that you can’t talk to your enemies unless you are in the same party, right?
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Our concern is not who the skill lag effects, since you’re right that it affects everybody. Our concern is who creates the skill lag by choosing to play in a certain way.
Real nice work by XxX at RS bay today, drawing out their defensive force and giving our main attack group the chance to rush their gate.
AM -
A lot of servers started out with people scattered in different guilds. Ours wasn’t all that different, yet we’ve managed to consolidate most WvW regulars into major guilds. If you enjoy and care about WvW, you are going to start to look for a better experience, one that isn’t as shallow as the one you have right now. It starts with individual guilds getting their players to focus on WvW and recruiting like-minded people, it’s something that can be incredibly rewarding, although it’s more challenging and requires more effort than blobbing. But what’s the point of the game if you aren’t playing to improve and challenge yourself?
Besides, with the introduction of random match-ups you’re going to find that your blob “strategy” doesn’t function against servers whom you don’t have a distinct numerical advantage against. Once you hit that primetime player cap you’re just going to get steamrolled time and time again. When that happens, I am sure that Abbadon will fall as your WXP train derails.
The idea that a lack of a language barrier would be a hindrance to you forming separate groups is nonsense, Gandara only has a few WvW groups that use have a first language that isn’t English. In fact most run using English language on the same TS server.
Fact is that your playstyle has a negative impact on everybody. It keeps you from learning about the game or having an experience with any depth, it introduces an unnecessary load on the servers for when these zerg v zerg clashes happen, which is probably why skill lag is so rampant now, and it makes it impossible for anyone who isn’t running in a guild group large enough to counterzerg to find worthwhile fights. Either it’s 5 stragglers (Zzzzz…) or 60 (run!), not much in between.
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na na na Gandara got namechecked in the matchup change post and you other guys didn’t
All ascended gear kind of has a cap on the rate at which you can acquire it, I can see why it will be no different for WvW ascended pieces.
Only a WvW player knows Anet won’t spoonfeed you, I’ve collected 149 laurels since they introduced the currency.
If there is cap why PvE player have so many rings that they don’t have room to store those? Cap just mean that devs take revenge against players who haven’t done their flavor of the month dungeon.
Because they’ve been doing several tiers of fractals a day since November and ended up getting bonus rings with useless stats. They still need laurels for amulets and accessories… Don’t tell me you’re jealous of those people :p
All ascended gear kind of has a cap on the rate at which you can acquire it, I can see why it will be no different for WvW ascended pieces.
Only a WvW player knows Anet won’t spoonfeed you, I’ve collected 149 laurels since they introduced the currency.
Similar problem, CTD attempting to portal to Gandara Garrison waypoint from Eternal Battlegrounds. Other people on the server have reported the same issue.
Yup, allowing siege despawn time to be increased according to the number of different players who tag the siege item makes the most sense.
I encounter this problem frequently. Rejoining the party corrects this… until someone else leaves or joins the party.
Sirendor more or less retracted what he said a few posts later.
Introducing stringent and arbitrary requirements which will only exclude the majority of your server’s WvW leaders from ever actually being able to get a tag will not give your server better commanders.
You will get better commanders by building a community on your server that can support its established commanders and educate and integrate its new commanders.
Warriors and guardians are both great for giving out boons to allies as they have both shouts and a second set of support abilities. What kind of boons do you want to give? You will give offensive boons as a warrior (might, fury) and defensive boons as a guardian (aegis, protection, regeneration, stability, retaliation).
In addition to shouts each class has its own sort of fixed area bonuses as well: Guardians have consecrations, which are more useful but have short durations and long cooldowns, warriors have banners which have weaker effects but can be moved around and have nearly 100% uptime.
Both classes can also provide healing and condition removal to allies.
The screenshots show that the culprit was nowhere near these gaps. They were also able to fire pretty much where they wanted in the Lord’s room and the rear of the wall top.
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