Guild Wars 2

Kulvar.1239:

Staff is a magical weapon, how do you imagine a Ranger with a staff ? A celtic druid using vines and bees ?

Ranger’s use magic already, although it is fairly “tame” in comparison to the clusterkitten of visual clutter than an Ele does. But they could also just whack people with it, a la Gandalf.

People don’t understand MM. They don’t know how to build effectively, don’t know how to play it, don’t understand the minions at all, they just summon them and press random buttons. Now, I’m not saying that MM is the hardest build to play, because it isn’t, but it is one of the most knowledge intensive builds out there. But if you don’t understand a build its very hard to make a good opinion of how it works.

There is so much you have to consider and know if you are playing against people who aren’t “hurr durr roll face to win”. While the build doesn’t have the kind of micro managing it did in GW1, it has its own unique flavor, and if they made the changes I detailed in a profession-balance forum thread then the build would feel similar in its own way.

But to the hambow comparison, no they aren’t the same. The loose similarity is that they are both tanky builds that deal damage and have CC. Hambow is a lot easier to play perfectly, although if you are just considering low/mid skill players then sure, they are similar enough to compare.

I don’t really think this is a balance issue at all, even less so than attunements. Once you know what kit/kits they have, which you can tell very quickly without the hobopacks, you know what to expect.

I’d say just give them the treatment he talked about. If people want them then they can have them, but if not then don’t force it on people.

Pregnantman.8259:

Flesh of the Master and Training of the Master are both flat bonuses. Apart from them the minion traits are on proc as you say, but an inclination of what they can do could be helpful. For example, if the minions have a poison aura around them you know you have to range them because they explode when they die, if the minions are gorged you know your conditions will be transferred to minions and act accordingly (for example, you can cast Epidemic on the minion to reapply the condition to the master), if the minions have dark aura you know they have boon rip and act accordingly (have additional boons on you when you have stability on you to prevent the minions from removing stability). Just some basic counterplay to basic inclinations. The procs can be inclined by having the minions pulse as well.

That isn’t the case with ANY trait though. There is absolutely no precedence for having that kind of visual representation of traits.

I get where you are coming from, but there are dozens of traits on Necromancer alone that have similar effects but no visual showing of it.

Besides the usual QQ about MMs, frankly don’t expect to beat a Mesmer as an MM.

It is certainly doable, I have done it plenty, but I think a good Mesmer would at least make it a 50/50, if not make it more like a 60/40 (in their favor). The issue for you is that they can pretty constantly reset your minions, and if you aren’t on top of your targeting the AI will hamper you very quickly. You also need very solid CC chaining to get minion autos to land, and you need to be using the right build (with as many ranged minions and minion healing as possible) for your minions to withstand the bursts and not die instantly.

Note that most of the QQ against MM comes from a place of ignorance. I’m not at all a good player, but I know more about MM than any of the top Necromancer players, because its a bad build for high level play (so why would you learn a bad build that you think is skilless and won’t work at your level of play). Not saying that MM is super skillful, because it isn’t atm (mainly due to passive traits and AI); it is a knowledge based build, instead of execution based. You need to know your build perfectly to be able to play around all the bugs and stupid mechanics ANet hasn’t fixed after 2 years.

Jackums.3496:

They’re not used in high end tPvP because they’re so vulnerable in group fights.

Also slow rotations. Your team needs to be incredibly coordinated to make up for the fact that one of your players can’t move very quickly and you can’t really play a 3 point game.

Muchacho.2390:

I think the main problem for power necros (apart from the normal problems all necros have) is that they need more aoe on power weapons. While you can get aoe with wells (which are actually quite strong if used properly) you will miss out defensive utility skills (flesh wurm,sw or sarmor), which you desperately need as necromancer in spvp.

Our single target and AoE damage in PvP is just fine. Power builds tend to be focused towards single target in general anyway. The issue is you’ll die instantly in a coordinated team fight.

We need cleave for PvE, and active damage avoidance on utility skills for PvP.

Dagger has the highest potential DPS, and generally the highest DPS in an actual fight. A large amount of this is that you can go 5 in Curses and have up to +24% damage from Target the Weak (obviously this isn’t realistic, but you can easily get quite a few of those in PvE). This is why you use dagger in coordinated PvE environments.

DS has higher DPS than dagger while you’re in DS and assuming that you aren’t in a group that is giving you things like fury and other buffs. This relies on you having a specific trait setup with Deathly Perception and LB traits.

Axe just doesn’t deal that good of DPS. It deals, at best, comparable damage to a fully traited Life Blast, and that is when Axe 2 is channeling.

manveruppd.7601:

snip

A build that does all of its damage via direct damage is just a power build. Hybrid is specific to dealing mixed damage types. So generally celestial is the go-to for other professions, especially ones that stack might, because it gives you more stats and you can supplement your damage anyway.

You are either too squishy or don’t have enough pressure in hybrid builds in PvP situations right now. Unlike other professions we don’t have the innate ability to boost our own stats well enough to go hybrid right now.

redrex.9634:

I have been discussing this with friends and guildies, and we all agree minions should be race specific, much like mesmer clones and thieves summons are.

For example, sylvari ones should reflect the wildlife at caledon forest. Asura ones from metrica. and this list goes on.

The same should be said for turret design, honestly.

what do we think?

Doesn’t make any specific sense, not to mention involves a lot of work for them for no reason. Minions are made from the materials at your feet, not from your home land. A Sylvari in Ascalon would have access to the exact same material as everyone else.

Turret design makes far more sense since they are things you make before hand and bring with you; banners, summoned thieves, and warband allies would make sense with this too. But the rest are either summoning specific entities (like Shadow Fiend), or putting them together via a “standard” set of materials that everyone would have the same of.

But mainly ANet does it because of work load. You’re talking about introducing up to 4x as many skins as they have now just for a cool little aesthetic thing.

Jake.1430:

Well, dead flesh is dead flesh no matter where it’s from.
I can understand turrets because they are put together by the player(kinda?)
I’m not too certain of minion making lore wise, but I do not believe that they were actually living things at one point.
That’s my opinion on it, someone better lore wise might give a better explanation to why Lore wise it doesn’t make sence, or they may say I’m wrong and completely agree with you, best of luck

Minions are put together at the time of summoning by using the available dead materials and piecing them together into golems. Just like the asura golems are put together via mechanical parts, or a rock golem is a collection of rocks put together and given “life”, minions simply use dead flesh as their component pieces.

Technically speaking, you’d have two arguments you could make.
1) Minions are made up of such basic components (bones, very common organ systems like intestines, random flesh) that any collection of organisms in the area would be able to fulfill the requirements for making them.

2) Minions would change, at least slightly, depending on where they are summoned because of the different dead organisms in the area.

Pregnantman.8259:

What would be cool if the appearence of the minions was to change accordingly with the traits slotted for them. Training of the Master could give them a barbed look, Flesh of the Master could give them a pink or reddish hue, Death Nova could give them a small poison aura, Vampiric Master could make them drip blood, Necromantic Corruption could give them a dark step aura and Fetid Consumption could make them more gorged. These cosmetic changes can be adjusted so that the minions are not neon lights and their effects can be known by enemies and counterplayed.

This would make more sense if it was standard all around. But basically no traits give noticeable effects until they are proc’d.

That isn’t really an MM build, even hybrid, its a condi build that has flesh golem instead of plague. You’re literally one trait off of what would be considered a fairly normal condi build.

Fun fact: certain AI ignore stealth completely, attacking the target regardless (I find it unlikely they fixed this, but it was a while ago I tested it).

Yes it makes you functionally immune to a lot, but there is still a lot that not only continues through stealth, but just straight up ignores it completely. Its nice but very comparable to the other mechanics.

Lorelei.3918:

Could you elaborate please? What isn’t true? Why is it little benefit? I understand that it’s usefulness is very situational. I think that its value as a trait goes up the more you stack vit.

It was in response to the trait not pulling right away.

The assumption that Necromancers will have full LF. It is very rare for that to happen except right as we enter a fight. This means that there is no real benefit for the trait to not pull immediately on entry (in the rare situation where you’d get a condi w/ no LF), and fairly detrimental to the trait because it takes so long to activate.

If you only are in for 3s, the addition of a pull is a 100% increase in effectiveness. 6s is 50%, 9s is 33%, etc. It is a very large boost to the trait’s effectiveness in most situations for it to pull immediately (and in your case it would change nothing since condis are removed so often anyway), while being of little detriment in the few exceptions.

Necro torch that chills
Hammer (melee CC) because the Risen do it
Greatsword (melee cleave, either condi or power) so I can RP Trahearne finally

Honestly I’d just like to see new weapons in general spread around. It does get a bit boring sometimes when I’ve been using the same set of 7 weapons for nearly 2 years.

With the new trait you can technically do exactly what you are saying. A 6/X/X/X/X build with parasitic contagion will heal you for a small % of the damage your conditions are doing, you can use cripple/chill/fear to keep enemies off you, and load them up with conditions, spread further by loading up 1 target + epidemic.

So technically, yes you can copy the Warlock’s style over. It isn’t exactly the same, obviously they are two games and Necromancers aren’t made with the intent to copy Warlocks, but there are enough similarities you might enjoy it.

Just a note, this might not be the most viable top tier speed run leet MLG pro sponsored by red bull 360noscope build out there, but it will get you through all the content just fine.

inb4 Necro QQ… oh wait.

Anyway, Necromancers are debuffers. Whether through conditions or corrupting boons, they bring enemies down to their level and fight without the need of fancy icons all over their status bar. Everything tends to be slower, slower stacking of conditions, low burst, but it adds up over time and that’s when you find yourself losing.

The big weakness is losing the fight quickly. Lack of any reactive damage avoidance, very few ways to avoid CC, and generally slower gameplay are their big weaknesses. Note that I’m not trying to argue how well Necromancers perform in the current patch, but simply what we are supposed to be if all was cold and deathly.

2. Yes. You could consider teleports, high damage CC (fear/hammer warriors for example), and similar mechanics being similar, if not a bit better since stealth doesn’t actually defend you, only make you untargetable.

3. Its all about builds. Some Necro builds are amazing 1v1, some awful, same is true of everyone, and I don’t think there are any builds that can truly 1vX and 1v1 well. 1vX is a complete illusion and BS that people come up with when they beat a braindead group of uplevels in WvW and think its because they are the reincarnation of Bruce Lee. You only survive 1vX, you never win it against competent opponents. That said, Thief would be the closest due to their ability to quickly jump in and out of combat and use stealth to guarantee stomps, but that heavily relies on them facing bad players that lack a lot of very common mechanics.

That isn’t a very good assumption to make though, because it will literally never be true except at the start of a fight in most content. It is a very big asumption (are you kidding me ANet? I can’t even spell words correctly… or get chat filtered) to make for fairly little benefit to you when it is true, and makes for a pretty weak trait overall.

Glad you found a way to make it work though, that’s pretty cool.

Standard projectile bugs, I’d imagine. See if staff autos have the same issue.

Waffler.1257:

can i hav rocket launcher 4 necro?

If it shoots minions I’m behind this idea.

pierwola.9602:

I mean that we don’t need 2 off-hand weapons with chill.

They can function in absolutely different ways. Focus off-hand is used for single target debuffing, torch could be used for AoE control and denial, for example through an ice field that applied very short durations of chill while you were in it.

pierwola.9602:

Duplicating skills is not the best idea. We have chill on focus.

We also have a chill on Dark Path, does that mean they are the same skill and focus shouldn’t exist?

Has the CDI been implemented though? Discussion is nice and all but its not useful until its been used for actual changes.

I’m sure they are working on it, but I’d imagine until they’ve at least decided what and how they are changing rangers (and so are just working on tuning numbers here and there, or new visuals for something, basically just fine tuning), I wouldn’t expect a new CDI.

Fungalfoot.7213:

I can’t say I agree with that at all. Torches are used to carry flames and fire is an element of life. As far as weapons go torches are by far the most unfitting thematically speaking. A necromancer is not a warlock.

Hence why every single torch idea that is very popular involves it being an anti-torch, a representation of our ability to corrupt. The torch doesn’t have to be lit, we’re magic, we could just as easily give it a magic “flame” that chills.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

While normally true, I think necro is a special case because a lot of our ability and trait design intertwine the two. Though admittedly, I haven’t done the math. Dagger 1 spam as power is probably more DPS than most things we can do.

The issue is how things stack. More condition output means your conditions stick longer as you overwhelm their removals, more direct damage comes through stats that have a lot of innate multipliers. Unfortunately Necromancers don’t have the innate defenses to be able to focus on damage well enough to hybrid (like eles can), or the innate offense to stat up on defense.

Hybrids can be good, but generally in PvE where things work out better for us.

I started playing GW1 because I saw a bone fiend when my cousin was playing, and that’s kept me on Necro ever since.

xbunni.3824:

I really just can’t see a Necro having anything to do with shields and swords. .-.
I feel like torch is the only considerable weapon here.

Trahearne has a greatsword and he is sadly a far better Necromancer than half the other people we see (although that isn’t saying much since they seem to have made NPC Necros a joke compared to the GW1 NPCs).

skullmount.1758:

So does anyone have a good wvw zerg build? I don’t like to solo or roam, so I don’t really want any of those builds. I’m pretty sure I’ll have to use staff and probably conditions, but thats fine with me (for now anyways, will need to try suggested builds first).

You’ll get a lot of mixed feedback about conditions and how useful they are. Generally speaking if you’re in a very coordinated zerg power/wells is better, strong damage and whatnot, although honestly I find even the braindead zerg players can avoid wells easily enough. Also I miss the spike damage of CB in a wells build.

Our minions are pretty good about not getting into combat before you are, one of the few good QoL changes they’ve made.

You shouldn’t be using staff and axe in PvE much. You can keep a set in your inventory for a few rare occasions, but I’d never consider them main weapons (except for using to life blast). So for your build either drop staff and use axe for LB, or drop axe and use staff, and pick up a dagger so you don’t hit like a wet noodle when you aren’t in DS.

Oh, and get rid of spiteful spirit and take reaper’s might.

Zaxares.5419:

… I’m a Necromancer who likes minions and using scepter. I’ll just go sit in the corner now. >.>

Honestly scepter isn’t the problem for me, staff is. But ya, don’t let my bias against condi MM get in the way of your fun :P

archwyvern.3102:

My armor is equipped with complete superior rune of undead but I do possess a power oriented axe (sigiless), knife (sigilless), and staff, thus making a hybrid build

will a hybrid build works on a minion master?

and what rune/sigil do I supposed to enchant on my minion master?

Staff isn’t so much a condi weapon as it is a utility weapon, same with dagger offhand. But no, I really wouldn’t use a hybrid build. A condi build might be able to be made to work, especially if you had an idea on how to make a niche or special build for yourself, but a hybrid build needs more offensive stats and non-minion utilities than can be afforded. Maybe a hybrid build that has some minions but doesn’t trait them heavily, but then I think you’re just spreading your stats out too much.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Do you really want a game where everyone is melee?

All melee zerker. No items. Final Destination.

Dee Jay.2460:

Yeah look you can redicul me for not being an expert on ALL class mechanics. But that’s besides the point.

No, it is totally the point. If you say a mechanic should be nerfed because it has 100% uptime super easily, but in reality it only gets that uptime in very rare situations with massive defensive investment, the entire basis of your argument is false and misleading.

You listed a bunch of builds that don’t at all have what you suggested. If you are still sticking to the point that these are too strong, present actual viable builds that showcase that.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Bhawb.7408:

It does affect thief skills. Go heartseeker spam when you’re chilled, or literally any of their leap/movement skills that aren’t shadowsteps, it absolutely murders them. Initiative can’t be affected by chill the same as other things because that means every single skill has longer recharges when casting a single one.

You constantly go around telling people to adjust their build to not be affected by other stupid mechanics. Try fixing your ele build so it doesn’t get affected by chill.

Movement? Yes.
Skill cool down? No.

Isn’t EVERY build on EVERY class affected by the moment part. How are they affected by skill cool down? So Why should ONE class have Chill only 50% effective? Why not make it for other conditions to be the same and weaker.

The skills themselves have reduced distances, something that is actually fairly unique to thief, not to mention how harshly it affects things like backstab, another unique thief mechanic. So affecting mobility, especially when it doesn’t just affect movement speed but the actual distance you move with certain skills, absolutely hurts a profession so balanced around mobility.

Also initiative affects every single skill. A thief with chill affecting initiative uses their 5 skill, now their 2-4 skills also have been hit by it as well. Realistically if thieves got hit by chill fully they’d be absolutely screwed against chill as a mechanic.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Using the old string-code method may prove to be unwieldy.

It might be a large-ish code, compared to GW1, however there is at least one build site (http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/) that uses string-code to pass builds. The only issue I see is if the code is potentially too-long to be put into chat.

It does affect thief skills. Go heartseeker spam when you’re chilled, or literally any of their leap/movement skills that aren’t shadowsteps, it absolutely murders them. Initiative can’t be affected by chill the same as other things because that means every single skill has longer recharges when casting a single one.

You constantly go around telling people to adjust their build to not be affected by other stupid mechanics. Try fixing your ele build so it doesn’t get affected by chill.

I would never use a “normal” MM build in PvE, only sPvP/WvW (roaming/small group).

Is condi MM possible? Yes. Why is it not played more often? Read below.

The reason power MM works so well is because it has a lot of natural synergy. If you look at what power weapons give that synergizes with minions:
Axe – cripple, retal, LF generation, vuln application, boon removal
Dagger – LF generation, healing, immobilize
Focus – boon removal, chill, vulnerability, regen, LF generation
Warhorn – LF generation, unblockable AoE daze, swiftness, cripple

Note that they all have a few things in common: they all not only function (less so in Axe’s case) as stand alone weapons, but their stand alone utility also greatly improves minion damage and/or survivability through kiting, vuln, boon removal, etc. On top of that, they work very well to extend your own life, which works well for minion builds in general. I left staff out since its utility, not power or condi (also I hate staff in MM builds, its a personal thing).

On the flip side of condi weapons:
Scepter – cripple, unreliable LF generation
Dagger – weakness, blind

Notice the massive change in how much they give? Condi MM builds are essentially about “I want to play minions but I also want to use a scepter”. The synergy is much less obvious, unlike power your weapons don’t fit as well, also as it is now condi is pretty reliant on certain rune/sigil setups that don’t particularly benefit MM. And finally, what do you think of when you think MM? You think 1v1, 2v1, 2v2 fights, basically very small fights on side nodes. What do you think of when you think condi? Teamfighting. Oops.

That all said, you can make it work (although again I dislike it). 0/4/6/4/0 for a straight transfer from standard to standard, or 0/2/6/6/0 for the off-build version. 6/0/6/2/0, 6/4/4/0/0, 6/0/4/4/0 are three versions that let you use Dhuumfire, of differing ideas. Also 0/4/6/0/4 is possible. You can also try other slightly different builds, there are a lot of potential ideas.

Basically, I would focus on getting either Terror or Dhuumfire (which gives you TotM too), which means you simply choose one big trait (Death Nova, TotM, or VM) that you can’t have; not actually the biggest deal. Death Nova’s poison can be augmented easily enough in a condi build, VM just means a bit less sustain, TotM just means a bit less minion damage. I’d then make sure that you are using proper sigils and runes to support what you have been traiting (don’t go healing power runes without 20 BM for example), and be smart about your utility picks (have enough minions, but don’t force yourself to carry all minions just because you’re an “MM”).

Anyway, it can be done, despite my dislike of it, especially if you try to focus on something that MMs aren’t known for, like teamfighting. If, however, we saw the addition of something like sword (a cleaving condi weapon), and/or the addition of more condi-focused minion traits, then I think condi MM would be far better than it is now.

You can go full berzerker scepter if you want. If you play it right you’re like a fake fresh air ele with timing 3 bursts right after someone gets below 50% to proc crit+chill of death for an instant huge burst.

Axe is only good if you can make use of everything it gives you: vuln stacking, life force generation, and retal. It works best in tanky power builds that need a ranged damage option that isn’t staff. Besides that, it is really underwhelming.

Frankly, the biggest thing people are missing is that death shroud is all the defense we have that other professions do not. Its not like Necromancer has a bunch of blocks, better defensive conditions, bunch of dodges/evades, and all this other stuff. The only thing we have that other people do not is a massive HP pool, which shows its limitations the second you aren’t able to play a build or game mode that doesn’t refill it constantly.

You can’t look at Death Shroud as a defensive mechanic without considering all the active defense it effectively keeps away from us. Is it still pretty cool to be able to face tank things that other professions have to wuss out of and dodge? Yes, definitely. But it is fairly rare that we can fake tank and still have any kind of presence, whereas other professions can go full zerker and still have a lot of active defense.

Now, this is all fixable with “thematic” active defenses (like actually getting good instant blinds), and/or improving our ability to face tank what other people would avoid while still having either offensive, defensive, or supportive presence.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

do any other classes have as many traits that affect their class mechanic?

Depends on the profession, but yes. Rangers have an ungodly amount of traits that affect their mechanic, and then on the other end of the spectrum you have like Engineers with 3 traits. I think we’re on the higher range, especially if you consider all the lifeblast and assorted other DS-skill traits, and I’d certainly say that we have some of the more interesting ones.

Overall my only complain with DS is that it directly interferes with an entire trait line of ours. If it didn’t do that, I’d love it completely. It is by far my favorite profession mechanic though.

Man, the kitten measuring contests in every single thread are kinda getting out of control guys. Even I’m too lazy to read this all, and I’m pretty maniacal about reading everything posted here.

Its the closest one to you, always. Its somewhat annoying since it has basically nothing to do with the one you’d want to explode (shameless plug incoming), and its why I listed it as a change I’d like here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Giving-Counterplay-to-Minions

Its all up to numbers, really. You’d have to specify builds, and frankly the best builds have both.

It is awesome, yes, and if it didn’t have the problem of directly countering our other defensive mechanics, like healing, I’d say it is easily the best profession mechanic in the game (frankly I still think it is).

Dee Jay.2460:

• Necromancer – Minion Masters are a bit op in sPvP, again due to constant Protection and Regeneration.

Uh… what MM build has constant protection? You have 0 access to protection in MM builds except through runes.

Hybrid builds aren’t new at all, they’ve been around for ages. They aren’t as popular because specialization makes things much more simple, in building, playing, and fitting yourself into a team, plus damage types tend to multiply with themselves far better than trying to have a lot of both will.

I don’t think it looks any more “epic” than the r80 one. Its another cool but super obnoxious finisher.

Agreed.

Evo Sapien.5298:

Not just for flesh golem, but flesh wurm could use an aquatic version as well. Flesh Golem into Risen Quaggan. Flesh Wurm into a stationary Risen Seaturtle. or something

They don’t need to transform into anything. Its not that they magically explode and the game opens a magical vortex that will destroy the world if flesh golem is left underwater, he just doesn’t have any swimming animations.

Both of them used to be allowed underwater, but it was honestly pretty stupid looking, and I imagine they just didn’t have the resources to make swimming animations.

Flesh Golem has base 13k HP, roughly 2.8k toughness, and deals about 500 DPS. Even when traited he isn’t really that difficult to kill if you focus him, if the Necromancer isn’t clerics build.

Terrahero.9358:

Similar to conditions, a 9.99sec Burn will display as 10sec, but it will not actually tick 10x but only 9×.

As detailed in my last post this is not accurate unless the burn is the only thing on the target.

SonOfKrypton.4357:

What meta are you referring to? They had one nerf reverted and an evade put on Burning Speed. This was a problem before this patch regardless.

Eles are pretty common and very desirable in all game modes atm, so when you base your argument around eles being too weak because of this, you’re going to face (very valid) criticism that frankly eles aren’t weak right now. Eles are actually extremely strong in both 1v1 and teamfights because they bring tons of literally everything.

The reason chill affects it is because it is considered a skill, and skills are affected by chill.