Guild Wars 2

@Aga,

If their testing on the Thief were anywhere near serious initiative wouldn’t have gone life. I remember that I said and predicted that initiative will cause problems and make balancing very hard, yet a lot of people said “it would be fine”. During beta when Initiative was at it’s worst me and others made a serious effort in getting arenanet to consider dropping initiative for cooldowns, yet arenanet chose initiative to go life. Their last testing session, which had a voice conversation on reddit had the testers deciding what to change and they didn’t even use arguments, they just talked and some people said “I don’t like that, wouldn’t use that, nah, meh, etc” and thats how they decided what to change lol.

@tOss, burst is not a problem, some type of damage are the problem. Assassin signet giving 10-12k backstabs in 1 sec is a problem. Mesmer phantasms doing 4-5k damage each is a problem. Game still needs balancing, will have to be patient.

Asmodean.5820:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Merciless.5349:

@Ksp

That statistic about seeing the Thief 90% of the time, even if fighting somebody…

Let’s go through this again.

Stealth.

I’m not like you, feeling down and saying it’s my own fault when I get killed by a Thief who was invisible and did over 10k dmg.

I don’t think to myself, “Well, gee, that invisible Thief wouldn’t have killed me like that if I just learn to play.”

No, I say, “Well, not really much I could have done there. I couldn’t see him. Why can they do this much damage again?”

And the reason I ask this type of question and make this kind of statement is because, having played numerous other PvP games, I have never seen anything like the Thief in this game. And there’s a reason all the Thief defenders make ridiculous statements like yours.

You are not under powered.
Your skills are not terrible compared to the other classes.
You have the best defense mechanism in the game, Stealth. A lot of it.
You control the fight.

People like you are the reason people can’t take Thief discussions serious. Stealth is nowhere near the best defence in game. I’ve dodged many steal backstab combo’s, timing is key.

There is a lot you can do, you just don’t know what and refuse to improve.

I think it is pretty ironic that you are just doing what you accuse him of. Why not just type “l2p” that would have saved us all some time.

That aside it is funny that thief defenders, like mesmers, just say “be aware of this and do this (usually dodge)”. Too bad that you sometimes fight someone else and cannot react that fast nor has the resources to do so all the time. However, even under these circumstances and (next-to) instant kill is still not balanced. Else all classes would have such a super deadly mechanic.

Didn’t even comment on damage, I commented on stealth and how he claims that is the best defense and offence at the same time. Stealth is good against noobs, decent vs good players. No where near “the best”.

Most of them do but they die 24/7 because Thief and Warrior go glass cannon for those burst builds, then when they realize these professions are not as strong as they thought they go back to their main and come and cry on the forum.

Merciless.5349:

@Ksp

That statistic about seeing the Thief 90% of the time, even if fighting somebody…

Let’s go through this again.

Stealth.

I’m not like you, feeling down and saying it’s my own fault when I get killed by a Thief who was invisible and did over 10k dmg.

I don’t think to myself, “Well, gee, that invisible Thief wouldn’t have killed me like that if I just learn to play.”

No, I say, “Well, not really much I could have done there. I couldn’t see him. Why can they do this much damage again?”

And the reason I ask this type of question and make this kind of statement is because, having played numerous other PvP games, I have never seen anything like the Thief in this game. And there’s a reason all the Thief defenders make ridiculous statements like yours.

You are not under powered.
Your skills are not terrible compared to the other classes.
You have the best defense mechanism in the game, Stealth. A lot of it.
You control the fight.

People like you are the reason people can’t take Thief discussions serious. Stealth is nowhere near the best defence in game. I’ve dodged many steal backstab combo’s, timing is key.

There is a lot you can do, you just don’t know what and refuse to improve.

Merciless.5349:

In case you needed more proof. I did see the Thief. He was right in front of me. And in less than 2 seconds, he went in to Stealth, and did that Backstab damage.

You know why it was less than 2 seconds? Because he came to my face, then went Stealth. So all he had to do was step around.

The problem is not Backstab, but Mug trait which makes Steal do 4-5k crits for free and Assassin signet which makes backstab crit around 10k, without assassins signet that backstab would be 6-7k.

bwookie.3807:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

bwookie.3807:

Please show me this 6-8k damage from Mug that is not a crit and why would you waste assassin’s signet on Mug when it has a fixed damage rate versus the best weapon coefficient of a stealthed backstab?

Read the OP, it should be clear. You are making claims I didn’t. I would show you, but I don’t have my western digital 1TB storage yet, when I do I will make vids

A screenshot will do. You state in the OP 5k on crit for mug which is about right. Which is based on crit chance and crit damage. A glass cannon build. Now you’re saying 6-8k which doesn’t jive. Unless you’re talking about WvW. You’re overstating your numbers with every post.

This is what I said: “Mug and Assassin’s signet break backstab because they drop about 6-8k damage on top of a backstab, no thanks.”

Mug drops 4-5k crits. Assassin Signet drops another 3-4k on top. That is around 8k combined.

bwookie.3807:

Please show me this 6-8k damage from Mug that is not a crit and why would you waste assassin’s signet on Mug when it has a fixed damage rate versus the best weapon coefficient of a stealthed backstab?

Read the OP, it should be clear. You are making claims I didn’t. I would show you, but I don’t have my western digital 1TB storage yet, when I do I will make vids

bwookie.3807:

Please show me this 4-6k damage on Steal on a balanced geared opponent. On all the golems in Heart of the Mists on a non-crit mug does around 1-2k. So for every thief build that isn’t rolling heavy crit chance and crit damage – Steal w/mug does appropriate damage for a trait. Just because a glass cannon thief can do 4-6k on a 45 second cooldown on a crit doesn’t mean it’s OP. You nerf mug and you just force every thief to be a glass cannon to do decent mug damage.

Mug is just total no brain trait, free damage on top of an ability which is already good and has almost 0 fail chance? Atleast backstab requires you to stealth, be behind the target and in melee range for high damage. What justifies 4-6k for Steal? nothing.

Mug and Assassin’s signet break backstab because they drop about 6-8k damage on top of a backstab, no thanks.

Swap wep mid combat 12k 100% crit evisc their face

EoNxBoNx.9213:

It’s kind of funny when people give balance ideas. 50% is a big number, and would pretty much make thieves cooldown based, more cooldown based than they already are. If they lower backstab damage that would be fine, but then what damage do thieves have really, think about. Outside of PW and Backstab no one has found a good damage build yet.

That trait should be removed, but arenanet won’t do that so a -50% in effectiveness is good enough. 4-6k damage on Steal is not balanced.

I don’t know if you are talking about me or not, but what I mean by letting them bleed out is NOT putting bleed conditions on them, just damaging them when they heal and controlling them. Their health bar slowly bleeds out on its own, all you need to do is damage them when they try to heal and that way you can keep them downed and lock them out for a very long time, that is what I mean by bleeding them out.

This is very effective against Thieves, Mesmers and Engineers in a lot of situations.

ehtom.5047:

Sounds like a good idea to me, how would you nerf the bleedstack spec?

I wouldn’t. Condition removal/transfer counters that spec like a boss.

ehtom.5047:

@Blazer: I dont see how you can complain about elementalists as a thief. Also, please stop posting these “well actually X class is worse than thieves” in every thread, its pretty obvious you are just trying to stop thieves getting nerfed.

Because Elementalist grouped together are almost immortal, Thieves are not. I don’t know but I am not your averege PvP’er, I am actually good. I know Backstab Thieves do high damage, I also know that they take a lot of damage very easily. So I use that knowledge to my advantage and stay in groups vs high Thief games, when they go for my Team mates I make short work of them.

Now why would I not think it is worse to face a lot of bunker elementalists instead of glass cannon thieves? The Elementalist heal and control people together, which makes it a lot harder to kill them.

A pile of Mesmers is actually immortality

I am not trying to not have Thieves nerfed, I actually gave feedback on what to nerf so you are just a butthurt averege PvP’er that is kitten at Thieves.

I play Thief, Warrior, Necromancer and Mesmer.

I don’t agree, GW2 is very close to E-sport, is fun and all it needs are:

1. Remove raid on the capricorn.
2. Add real RATING based on win/loss as a team and add rated matchmaking system.
3. Make sPvP hot jon from 8v8 to 5v5 so people actually experience the real sPvP instead of zergfest.

Chraos.8745:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Chraos.8745:

You think thats stupid? i played against this the other day.

I prefer that instead of Elementalists and Mesmers anytime, anywhere. Atleast Thieves are killable.

When you pile a lot of Elementalist bunkers together they won’t die and they will control enemy targets and then kill them.

Mesmers are the worst 20 clones and phantasms everywhere, damage coming from everywhere, don’t know which mesmers are the real mesmers, can’t see whats going on. Killing the clones is not an option when there are so many.

They may be killable but dat damage… anyways if the majority of them ele’s were bunkers i feel for you bro.

If I face high thief teams I always stay in a group, while they kill my team mate I kill them, thats the drawback of a glass cannon in group fights.

The Mesmer one was worse, should have taken screenshot of that one. I hope you never fight a team full of mesmers lol.

A good PvP’er enjoys losing in a fair fight (1v1, 2v2 etc not 1v3). When I lose, I actually enjoy that the enemy did some pro evades and owned my face with better timing.

The difference between a good PvP’er and bad PvP’er is that when the good PvP’er loses, he knows why he lost and what he could have done to get a better outcome and actually makes an effort next time to succeed. The bad PvP’er will claim OP and shift all the blame on anything but himself, so there will be no improvement.

Albane.8367:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Elementalist is the only class you actually can’t bleed out and have to stomp, because they will get back up easy.

Hmm.. bleeds prevent Elementalist from healing themselves when downed, and their heal is no faster or slower than other classes. Not sure what other ability you think Elementalist get that helps them to revive from 50%-full faster than other classes.

Vapor Form gives back a big chunk of health when it is finished, they will run off, get high health, then heal at safe distance and rally. That is why you have to stomp Elementalist as soon as possible.

Chraos.8745:

You think thats stupid? i played against this the other day.

I prefer that instead of Elementalists and Mesmers anytime, anywhere. Atleast Thieves are killable.

When you pile a lot of Elementalist bunkers together they won’t die and they will control enemy targets and then kill them.

Mesmers are the worst 20 clones and phantasms everywhere, damage coming from everywhere, don’t know which mesmers are the real mesmers, can’t see whats going on. Killing the clones is not an option when there are so many.

Vapor Form revives enemy units? wut? Elementalist is the only class you actually can’t bleed out and have to stomp, because they will get back up easy.

I prefer letting Thieves, Mesmers and Engineers bleed out, since they won’t get their HP back up anytime soon. Standing on a node and slowly ranging these classes to death while I capture the node and they are practically locked out of the game for 10-15 sec excluding rez timer? win!

The Boz.2038:

My favorite idea for nerfing thieves is this:
Keep initiative, reduce all weapon skill activation times by ~0.5 seconds, add a ~0.5s global weapon skills cooldown on skill use. That way chilled means something.
And yes, I agree, Mug, as a trait, is hyperawesome, as is Assassin’s Signet.

Reducing activation time a.k.a putting a cast time on almost all rogue archetype class fighting abilities is a bad idea. When I play a Thief/Rogue/Assassin I want fast attacks and high speed gameplay.

Not so sure on adding 0.5 sec global cooldown. It would make slower weapons stronger than faster weapons, this would effect my Dagger power/crit necromancer too and I don’t want that.

Chill not affecting Thief and initiative was on purpose decision that arenanet made. They answered it in beta questions. They said that certain conditions affect certain classes more than others and gave confusion damaging thief more than others as example I think.

ehtom.5047:

Well this is just funny… Phantasm isnt used by any top player at the moment. To be perfectly honest, it is a pretty bad spec:

1. If geared for damage, the mesmer is still glass, just kill him.
2. Phantasms randomly die to aoe and are on a 16sec cooldown.
3. Shatter does so much more damage in a shorter amount of time.
4. Phantasm has a large windup time – you need to summon at least two preferably 3 phantasms. In that time a thief can already have bursted you down.
5. No target switching.

1. Good luck hitting me.
2. Phantasms? nah, illusions? yes.
3. Shatter build is good too, but I prefer Phantasms since I think it is stronger overal, not just damage.
4. So? they are almost always available when I need them. I can summon Phantasms from range before the enemy is anywere near me and summoning them takes less than a second.
5. If my target dies, that is a good outcome. I don’t need to switch targets. Sometimes I just throw 1 or 2 phantasms on an enemy that fights my team mate and I focus on another target, this way I can have high pressure on 2 targets.

I a very good Thief player will give feedback on how to nerf it

1. Backstab damage alone is fine. I would even suggest that non-crit backstab is a bit weak and should be increased.
2. Cloak and Dagger damage is fine. It has a high initiative cost, melee ability with cast time.
3. Mug, the trait that makes steal do damage is a problem. Steal is a gap closer + item conjure based on enemy, with an early lvl trait it can do 5k damage when it crits.
4. Assassin’s Signet 150%+ damage on next attack is a problem.

What to change?

3. Mug, reduce the damage by 50%.
4. Change the activate effect to give X stacks of might for Y seconds. Maybe throw in a Fury too, reduce the cooldown from 45 sec to 30 sec.

This way Assassin’s Signet can still be used to increase damage, but stretched out over a duration instead of a blink of an eye. The boons can be countered by boon rip/corrupt/removal skills. Other abilities can benefit from Assassin’s Signet too, instead of only backstab.

This way you knock down atleast 5-7k damage from backstab combo so there won’t be any 1 shots.

I only use moa in 1v2+ fights, never use moa in 1v1 because it is already so easy to win 1v1 fights as a Mesmer, better save the moa for group fights

I played Mesmer for 1 day and oh god, they are three times stronger than my Thief and Warrior combined. I am immortal in 1v1 as a mesmer, pop phantasms, knock back GS spam while Phantasms dish out 5-6K damage and melt face. Don’t even need to use utilities or elite and people whine about Warrior/Thief LOL xD

Nerfing Leaping Death Blossom? won’t happen.

Change of plan folks, had a talk with one of my insiders and brace yourself for an assassin signet and mug trait nerf.

Assassin’s signet is the problem, not backstab.

Redscope.6215:

A damage build oriented skill is not useful without building for damage?

Do tell…

When I play condition thief, auto attack, heartseeker, dancing dagger and cloak and dagger are all very useful, even when I am not build for power/crit so you were saying?

Backstab needs a higher base damage so it becomes better for other builds aswell. People who think Backstab does high damage have no clue, it is the combination of a Assassin’s Signet backstab + cloak and dagger + mug steal damage.

Backstab alone is actually weak and should have its base damage increased. Nerf Mug and Assassin’s Signet, problem solved.

Tried some D/P, while it is stronger than I had thought in 1v1, in group fights it is still a hybrid set which is outdone by other sets. I still think P/P and D/P need serious buffs.

Backstab nerfed? keep dreaming. Mug trait (steal damage) and Assassin’s Signet are the problem, not Backstab. Infact, I think backstab should do MORE base damage, because it is utter garbage if you are not full power/crit.

There is no balance in WvW, so you have to put up with it.

I would prefer Signet of Shadows speed bonus removed and instead we get Infiltrator’s Arrow to travel a bit more distance, cost 5 initiative (remove the AoE blind) and travel a bit faster. Also some more swiftness boons from traits would be nice.

You were hit for around 6.7k damage while the Thief was stealthed, CnD was before he was stealthed and those abilities after backstab are after he leaves stealth.

Of course the moderator thought that, he actually knows what the abilities do. Stop crying, you are making a fool out of yourself.

Try to LoS the unloads, the melee will come to you. Kill the melee while keeping defence up and avoiding damage from real thief. Keep LoS abusing till the ranged one disapears, now you can engage Thief without worry.

I killed that npc with 1 ability, some mesmer dome that reflects all ranged attacks he unloaded himself to death lol. Don’t know, that initiative is smexy, I want too :p

Rome.3192:

Fade.5904:

“Is there anything that can even survive, let alone kill you?”

Ehtom – “People seem to mainly be concerned with thieves and while I can see the logic behind the complaints (1shot from stealth outside human reaction time is not fun) they are also squishy and not particularly useful in groups.
Warriors on the other hand just seem like god mode to me (I play Mesmer/Necro)… 100 skills gives ridiculous 1shot potential, they seem very tanky and hard to kill, they have alot of cc, they can easily run away from you and if you do down them they can just resurrect themselves and get back to the pain train. About 1/2 of everyone I see in sPVP is a warrior. Why does nobody talk about this, what am I missing?”

lol’d

haha aother person who complained about heartseeker taking down a bunker guardian in 2-3 sec also made a claim that he was hit by 12k Bull’s Charge, I repeat HIT not CRIT.

These people are either trolling or really bad at PvP :p

I played mesmer for 15 minuts and almost vomited at how easy and strong they are, phantasm up 1 knockback from great sword = dead

TheRamosOnline is a troll, no way bullcharge can hit for 12k.

3m x $60 = $180m

Gems for server pale in comparison.

Cris, very informative post. I mistook those attributes for the Assassin, but you say that they are Rogue attributes. So an Assassin doesn’t use Shadow Arts and Poisons? Where can I read up on this, I like all 3 classes.

no “theif” day? all reroll “mesmor” and go duelist spec lol.

@SpaceCowboy, Thief with 1200 range weapon, the foum would be filled with whine and nerf threads :p “omg this thief spammed snipaah shot from china and crit me 6k 6k 6k and I died what is this balance? Nerf please!”

Stin.9781:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Stin.9781:

First of all shadow shot in full glass hass hight damage around 1.3 of hearseeker. and close to 2.5x autoattack with blind in it. To another glass cannon as i allready tried deals ~5k damage and blinds him. With low initiative cost you can use it 2 times to save up some some later for smoke cloud and hearseeker>blackstab combo. It can dish out around 20-25k dps using 17 innitiative, i dare you to dish out that ammount of damage with p/p using less initiative, so fast. Not using utilitys. I think D/p is in front of P/p yet behind all others.

If you manage to do 5k with Shadow Shot, then Unload would actually do 7k-8k on the same target.

Problem with D/P is that it is melee glass cannon with the worst defence, blind. Atleast backstab has stealth which is quite good and D/D condition (isn’t really glass cannon but still) has evade.

Blind in GW2 is weak, very weak. Auto attacks clear it with ease, if blind was “duration” instead of next attack then it would be interesting.

P/P has the advantage of ranged, which becomes a lot more important in group fights where you can stay in the back and do damage without risking to go in melee range.

That is all about sPvP.

In dungeons, D/P would be good if most enemies didn’t have that buff that makes Blind less effective, but areanet had to do it or else two Thieves would just blind lock bosses lol. A D/P thief would experience a lot more random instant 1 shots than a P/P thief, in fact if the P/P knows whit is going on he will never be random 1 shotted because he will have a longer window to respond to what the enemy does (ranged travel of the attack or w.e) while a Melee thief won’t have that luxary.

The first part is true, however shadow shot is instant, and blinds, making it more bursty than p/p, which at best is mediocre sustained dps. Wont argue futher, cuz no matter D/p or p/p i find them both unplayable in tourneys so w/e

Yes we can agree on that, bring D/P and P/P buffs

Lavexis.5360:

sure tell me your ign and ill add you
oh ill play on US server

Whispering you right now mate, respond :p

MidgeisGood.2153:

Blazer, you seem to have a grudge on anyone who uses D/P, whats the deal

I dont, I play all Thief weapons on a frequent basis. I am just defending my statement.

Cris, I am talking from gameplay perspective, that is why I named gameplay abilities. I don’t care about the small differences between Thief, Rogue and Assassin classes in a phantasy setting. In almost every game these classes have had the core abilities that fit the Assassin: Stealth, Shadowstep and Poisons and the iconic Assassin weapon: Dagger. When it comes to gameplay there is nothing special about the Thief, the Steal is not even a real steal but a conjure ability based on opponent + a free Shadowstep (hint hint). People shouldn’t compare GW1 Assassin with GW2 Thief and say that Thieves are more versatile, that is because GW2 classes are designed to be more versatile and viable than the GW1 classes.

At the end of the day, it has been the Assassin that has defined this archetype in most games, not the Thief, Rogue, Pirate, Scout or w.e

This discussion started because somebody said that people should only name Thief abilities which is freaking hillarious since Thieves are basically Assassins, that is why 80-90% of their abilities are Assassin themed and another reason why that statement is a joke is that the creator of the thread included all the three classes in his original post; Assassin, Thief and Rogue. You know why? because these classes are basically the same.

Stin.9781:

First of all shadow shot in full glass hass hight damage around 1.3 of hearseeker. and close to 2.5x autoattack with blind in it. To another glass cannon as i allready tried deals ~5k damage and blinds him. With low initiative cost you can use it 2 times to save up some some later for smoke cloud and hearseeker>blackstab combo. It can dish out around 20-25k dps using 17 innitiative, i dare you to dish out that ammount of damage with p/p using less initiative, so fast. Not using utilitys. I think D/p is in front of P/p yet behind all others.

If you manage to do 5k with Shadow Shot, then Unload would actually do 7k-8k on the same target.

Problem with D/P is that it is melee glass cannon with the worst defence, blind. Atleast backstab has stealth which is quite good and D/D condition (isn’t really glass cannon but still) has evade.

Blind in GW2 is weak, very weak. Auto attacks clear it with ease, if blind was “duration” instead of next attack then it would be interesting.

P/P has the advantage of ranged, which becomes a lot more important in group fights where you can stay in the back and do damage without risking to go in melee range.

That is all about sPvP.

In dungeons, D/P would be good if most enemies didn’t have that buff that makes Blind less effective, but areanet had to do it or else two Thieves would just blind lock bosses lol. A D/P thief would experience a lot more random instant 1 shots than a P/P thief, in fact if the P/P knows whit is going on he will never be random 1 shotted because he will have a longer window to respond to what the enemy does (ranged travel of the attack or w.e) while a Melee thief won’t have that luxary.

Lavexis.5360:

D/P build can beat any class except super tanky bunker guardian..
I’ve tried it and yes it works.
D/P also beat condition thief, backstabber and hs spammer by farrr, and blazer if you think d/p is the worse weapon set then you have no idea what it can do.

Wanna test it now? lets go to the heart of the mists, tell me which server (pick an empty one) and lets see if you are right

You play on American or European servers?

I did a 1vs3 against a group at docks, throw feathers, steal, caltrops, 2x leaping death blossom, weapon switch for rune bleeds, 1x leaping death blossom… the amount of small numbers that popped out of each player with such speed, it looked like a fountain of blood. It was the most amazing thing I saw in GW2. Of course they go in their downed state within 1 sec of each other and I just throw some more leaping death blossom and bleed them do death.

That scene inspired the name.

Stin.9781:

Why would you smoke cloud+ hearseeker at 100%, you just tp with #3 few basic attacks till around 50% then smoke cloud hearseeker and backstab, which finishes off, though gotta agree its not match for D/D since 2 most viable builds are on it. Though cant agree p/p is better … i find that most useless at all.

Aaah the Thief Dagger auto-attack, what amazing damage that must do! Just a few auto-attack and the enemy is miraculously at 50% hp, for you, to set up your epic smoke cloud heartseeker backstab combo! Too bad there is a skill called CnD that makes that combo almost totally useless.

P/P is better in PvP and better in PvE, especially Dungeons. P/P is the only weapon set that guarantees you high dps and high survivability for a Thief in a dungeon, no 1 shots, easy dodges, safe distance.

For D/P to become good the Duel Skill needs to be changed in to something very useful and weapon set defining.

P.S: I said better in PvP, because P/P sucks in PvP compared to D/D, Shortbow, S/P and S/D. Shows you how far behind D/P is lol.