Guild Wars 2

I would suggest a scepter over mace. It gives you a bit of range and Smite can trigger burning multiple times. Yes, the extra burn on block is nice but without any immob/range you’re going to be vulnerable to ranged combatants. I’m torn between Traveler and Flame Legion. Again though, with a scepter you have to worry about land speed less.

Shaogin.2679:

S/D is fun but the damage output doesn’t justify the lack of survival. And what I mean is, static discharge itself is pretty weak. Most of the burst comes from Rifle 3, 4, 5 and toolkit 3. I mean sure it’s nice to see that 4k crit, till I realize that my power necro does that on auto attack in deathshroud and can face tank much more damage in return. Zerker just doesn’t fit the Engi well. We sacrifice too much survival without being adequately compensated with damage ouput.

I do get that feeling, although SD can burst a bit better than Power Nec imo. It can also do the burst from the start and doesn’t need to gain life force. That can be another thing it has on Shatter because you need to make clones first. SD you can just jump in and do your burst right away. Generally lower CD on said burst too.

I feel like Static Discharge is one of the most enjoyable builds one can play. This is my version. I’m not 100% set on everything yet (Sabilize Armor or Protective Shield? Or maybe 4 into Alchemy for Protection Injection) but it gets the job done. Why I like it is because not only can you blow people up but in addition you use so many different Engi mechanics all in one build. You have a kit, turrets (granted you hardly ever use it more than the occasional drop and overcharge), and a gadget (one that is fantastic against Thieves/Mesmers). It’s also really customizable, I can think of at least 4-5 versions off the top of my head.

Now the real discussion, I also play Shatter Mesmer and I started wondering to myself which build is actually better. The pros of Shatter are obvious, Portal and Blink can be crazy useful. That being said SD isn’t without team support. The water field from your turret and the boons from Runes of the Pack are also useful not to mention 100% swiftness up time makes you a solid roamer.

I know SD will probably never be meta, but the build is so fun compared to “nade everything lolololol” that I’d like to hear other Engi player’s thoughts.

It would be more of a revisal rather than a reversal. The problem before was that the CDs of swap and crit/hit sigils were overlapping. This would still allow more combos than the old system, but you won’t be able to stack the effects to stack some of the most powerful effects at the same time.

This change would also not require redesigning entire sigil effects. Of course they would need to allow players to strip off sigils that violate the new system for free.

I can’t really say I like the idea of Fire only hitting those around your target, it would make it useless for many engagements and thematically it just feels weird to have an effect that doesn’t hurt your target. I would be on board with any nerf to Sigil of Battle at this point, I’m fed up with might stacking meta and would much rather have 10% of my crit damage back.

Also sorry about the late reply, I’ve finally unlocked the Phantom Bow on BF4. Which was a total waste of time seeing how terrible it is.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Juba.8406:

make Physical Training an Adept trait.

why would we want to do that?

physical utility skills are already quite lack luster and seldom used by warriors, i think we should buff physical training more so that it becomes grandmaster trait worthy.

then we can move berserker’s power down to master trait where it belongs, since adrenal is nerfed.

Both Zerk Power and High Focus need a move down or buff now that Adrenaline has been nerfed. In fact, the “fix” (hard to even call it that after so many things were changed around the old functionality) has made several traits totally worthless or more worthless than they were before (adrenaline on kill * cough *).

I think we could really use some traits that increase the usability of double melee sets. Any War build theorycraft almost always starts with 4 points in Defense and a Bow with Sigil of Doom on it.

I would like to see Sundering Mace given some unique functionality. Perhaps blocking an attack removes a condition. You would generally have to give up CI unless you want to double down and sacrifice a GM trait to have both. With Missile Deflection, which could be merged with Shield Master and just take away the + tough, and Counterblow being on a 8 second CD you could take a GS and Brawler’s Recovery and not be so tied to Bow+CI. You could still be beaten by conditions, but it would be a fair fight against pure condi specs. Necro would still have the edge due to Greater Marks making them unblockable.

A Mending buff would also help this spec along, although it would help Axe + GS a lot more. A worthwhile heal amount + Restorative Strength = no need to put any points into Defense and maybe even free up a slot for Frenzy.

Before the last Sigils change, you were limited in terms of what combos you could do. This wasn’t a good thing, however the current system is actually worse in my opinion. With the current system, there is actually LESS variation than there was before (as far as PvP goes and sometimes WvW).

If I’m going for DPS, there is almost no reason to use anything other than Fire/Air. The amount of extra DPS this gives you is crazy. Another popular combo is either Battle/Energy or Battle/Doom. Even if you’re not might stacking it doesn’t hurt to have a Sigil of Battle considering how strong it is. There is also so much passive regen in this meta that having high uptime poison access is very useful.

My suggested change is as follows:

Only allow 1 type of sigil per weapon set. By type I mean “On Crit/Hit,” “On Swap,” “+Duration,” or “On Kill.” This will make you actually have to choose what kind of runes you want rather than defaulting to the same combo every time. Do you want poison or endurance? Do I bring Air OR Fire and what do I bring with it?

If this doesn’t solve all of the problems than perhaps we need to look into buffs/nerfs. I preferred it when sigils were just little extras on your build, unlike now where they can be almost as important as traits/gear.

What I do see potentially happening is a surge of people who haven’t played SoloQ for a while coming in and getting a few wins and suddenly being in the top 5 (it happened to me several times). Basically just wait until a few hours before reset and jump in.

While some runes are simply garbage, I would rather the weaker runes be the standard and he current meta runes be weaker. What makes Strength so absurd is less the 5% dmg boost (although it’s a factor) and more the constant might gain for being hit. In fact, for many sets the idea that you get rewarded fro getting hit seems dumb. The biggest offender is Nightmare Runes. The runes make Terrormancer much stronger because randomly getting feared when you hit them can totally screw up your rotation and enable them to start changing you and you had no way to avoid it. If it was on hit it would be much more fair to the player fighting against the runes.

I would like to see runes and even sigils in some cases (fire/air, Battle/Something else on swap like Energy or Doom) go back to being accents/add ons to your build rather than being just as if not more important than your traits. The changes did not open more options, it actually limited them. I would rather have a wide variety of minor changes than a choice between 2 and sometimes no choice at all.

It’s a shame, I tried to run a HGH Flamethrower build and while the damage was there the sustain simply isn’t. I Also run Medi Guard and it’s clear that it is simply superior to anything Elixirs can put out. I can also trait my Medi Guard to be highly resistant to condis (2/1/6/1/4). Even with 409 the cleanse on Elixirs isn’t that good.

It’s annoying because concept wise FT and Elixirs is a perfect match. While you can kick some noob butt once you encounter someone who knows what they’re doing you’re toast.

Black Box.9312:

Full condi guardian. Er, I mean- Anet is advocating for it, so it must be a real thing, right?

I got 1 in my sig. It’s not full condi mind you, but the burn tics are for 1k each. It’s still basically Medi Guard and I can’t vouch for it for anything outside of small scale combat, but run with a condi Necro/Engi for some funny times.

This is just a for fun post. Link builds that are “totally viable,” by which I mean totally worthless for anything other than a laugh. Of course, don’t just throw random crap together, it should at least make some sense.

For example:

“Guys, it’s totally viable!”

EDIT: Version 2

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Last time we dueled I wiped the floor with you despite the sea of excuses that you flooded me with. Hold that!

Then you have to duel me with a 100.3 fever. Anyway lets not derail the thread anymore, we can settle this in game

HA! None can withstand the might of Ben the Annoying! My 5+ seconds freezes will defeat you both! Sword/Focus master set!

SlimChance.6593:

I don’t mean to derail Chaos’s thread, but…

All I’ve every run is a shutdown CI-Mantra build. But apparently am not a worthy Mesmer, because when I look at these lockdown builds and the current “meta” Shatter builds. I just don’t see how anyone gets by without a condition cleanse?

In my experience, PvP is nothing but an “immobilize>dump AOE condition”, rinse – repeat. Especially against Mesmer. It almost seems like most other profession specifically search and destroy the Mesmer first because its such an easy kill with this strategy.

So how do you Masters live without any condition clears? Do you just portal away when immobilized? Or you are just kiting GODS and somehow never get caught?

Well, if you’re on point with your interrupts you don’t really need to fear condis because the classes that generally run them in PvP have slow cast times. Necros all but interrupt themselves.

Also, the meta in TPvP is more tanky + might stacking with celestial if your build can use it. I don’t find myself getting overwhelmed by conditions very often. There’s also the fact that your Guard or Ele can take care of condis for you if you’re communicating.

I started with CI, and as a result I’m much better with it than Shatter. My version actually brings Portal because to me that’s the one thing that Mes brings to the PvP table that no other class can. No one else can go home, place a port, go mid, and still be able to defend home at a moments notice. I thought I would miss Decoy, but you can use Portal to get halfway across the map if things get dicy. I’ve also noticed that CI has a much better chance vs Thief than Shatter. A Power Lock right after they jump will will generally interrupt which lets you chain Diversion or whatever you can. It’s still going to be close 1v1 but I feel much less vulnerable on CI. I’ve been messing around with offhand pistol and it seems like a viable replacement. Magic Bullet is much faster to use than the focus pull but of course you lose that great Place Curtin > Start casting Warden > use pull at about 25% in and if it interrupts they get locked in place and eat a ton of damage from the Warden.

Against the unfamiliar you can just wreck them because they end up dazed and confused.

MailMail.6534:

I’ve used very interesting colors with my Mesmers. I’m a fan of yellows, golds and reds.

My Dry Top Sylvari is actually brown, yellow and brick-red.

You gotta be adventurous! Don’t stick with just purple. That’s easy and lazy.

Well, I am considering a combination of Glorious Armor with the HoM Balthazar gloves and a Fiery Dragon Sword. I’ll be a light class with heavy-looking armor with fire everywhere and yet I attack with purple butterflies.

I still think neutral color + purple accents can look good, especially with the right weapons.

inhearth.2038:

Urgh… It’s already disturbing the amount of Mesmers that dye their entire armor with purple and end with a horrendous and exaggerated look just because… the class has a purplish theme.

Well, I can’t stand the Thief-Female-Uniform-With-Glitch-Flower-Hair already, but now we will have a massive legion of Mesmers with the same set and the same basic purple.

>>>GW2 FASHION POLICE WE WILL NEED SOME HELP HERE<<<

I mean, using any other primary color could lead to it clashing terribly, and we can’t have that. I guess you could go with yellow because it’s a complementary color…but I think only female characters can make that work. When the majority of your skills are one color it doesn’t look as fabbbllloooooousssss as is should in combat.

Of course, I don’t go all purple. I’ll pick a neutral color like white, black, or even brown if the material looks leathery and make the accents purple.

Your version is pretty much exactly what I recommend, although I like dropping 1 from Defense to get Mobile Strikes. I’ve become sort of anti-EP just because of how…boring it is. I prefer Berserker Stance for the Adren gain because I feel like I have enough blocks to deal with power, it’s condis that bug me.

It’s good for duels but for PvP it’s a sad fact that if you aren’t running Hambow chances are you aren’t as useful as you could be. This probably won’t change until we get a new game mode. If there’s more open areas, we might see more variety.

Vukorep.3081:

and what if warriors start to throw fireballs and call down meteor showers …..i think only then teleports would fit them well

The lack of reading…continues.

I feel like this could be used as a study to see how much people actually read of a post. Cleary, some don’t get farther than the thread title.

Now that I’ve had a few more days with Mesmer It does seem like Double Shatter is still superior, although I am admittedly not as good at is as CI because I started with that and the way you play it is pretty different. Being able to burst someone down almost instantly is crazy useful. I like the style of lockdown more but that requires the use of a Mantra which means no Portal which could make you much less useful.

Although, I gotta say Shatter is nowhere near as good at denying stomps. Between Power Block, Chaos Storm, and either Temporal Curtain or Magic Bullet you can be a real lifesaver. That being said a Hambow War can do the same thing whole being tankier (though much slower). It’s a sad trend that no matter what class I play in PvP I rarely get to play the role I want to on my class. I think I still wanna mess around with lockdown but I’m going to try something like this.

jenzie.4083:

BurrTheKing.8571:

So, I’m new to Mesmer theorycrafting. I’ve been working too much to play but I would like to have a build to just plug in and play when I get the chance. So does this look OK ?

I prefer Far-reaching manipulation over Retaliatory Shield. It’s the best get-away / chase tool we have imo.
Haven’t looked through the whole build but that caught my eye.

Well, the idea behind that is that you have the block on scepter in addition to the Aegis on Chaos Storm. Combine that with your other Retal sources like iMage and you could have a pretty huge up time. I like to just kill my foes so that I don’t need to run away…well that sounds creepy as hell.

So, I’m new to Mesmer theorycrafting. I’ve been working too much to play but I would like to have a build to just plug in and play when I get the chance. So does this look OK ?

Irina.7418:

I had to share it with you.

“Bull’s Charge: functionality changed to: “You Shadow Step to target foe and knock them down.”
I found it when reading some game updates in gw1 on the wiki. Interestingly enough, it was made as a joke on April Fool’s Dy 2009 (source : http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates:April_2009)

I would find it pretty fun if a joke in gw1 could become reality in gw2.

Well, the games are different, and honestly, you can’t really compare the 2 different bull’s charge, but i found it quite fun.

Yah, GW1 BC was pretty different. It only KD’d if the target was moving. I remember a Axe build that involved it and the Ele skill Shock or something like that.

That being said, my suggestions would make the skill look the same/similar to how it currently does. It just wouldn’t be screwed over by terrain.

SaintSnow.6593:

Didn’t need to. Still funny. 10/10

It’s not funny because if you had read it you would have realized my suggestion does not lead to BC doing any of the things you said.

There’s Snow hope for some people.

SaintSnow.6593:

Lol i choked laughing at this one. Warrior just teleporting in, knocking you down instantly then hundred blading your face or giving you a nice evicerate right in the noggin. Oof make it a stunbreak while you’re at it.

Add another to the list of people who post without reading.

Maugetarr.6823:

Well, I’m for increasing reliability without increasing power as there are a bunch of things that simply don’t hit when they should. Instead of a teleport though, the idea of using an animation closer to swoop or leap of faith would make more sense. This is not saying a blind or evade should be added, or the range should be increased; this is just saying that when the button is pressed and the skill is not dodged, blocked, or blinded (etc), it should connect. This isn’t just a problem with bull’s charge though, it’s a problem with a number of movement skills.

Yes, if possible an animation that is identical to the current one would be nice. The only issue I see is the camera. You would see yourself moving away while your camera stays where you are then you suddenly jump forward. That’s why I figured a “Flash-style” sprinting stance as a tell followed by the teleport with a afterimage would be less jarring/more natural looking.

If it works you could apply it to other skills as well. I think Swoop/Rocket Boots are more fixable because they lift you off the ground. I think another problem with Bull’s Charge is that you’re moving across the ground instead of the air. That being said making you leap would make the skill look…odd I’d imagine.

I think we have some common ground there. It might be possible to give unused skills like Dancing Dagger an effect that makes another attack on the bar deal more damage. Of course, to balance this out the default damage of said skill may need to be lowered but in exchange if you combo it you can deal even more damage than you do currently.

You could do some really cool things with that concept. Maybe a skill on P/P makes another on D/D more powerful of visa versa. It could give sets that you never see used more skilled play.

Stealth is certainly an issue on Thief. I can’t say it’s an issue on any other class because even Mesmer doesn’t use it anywhere near as much as and Thief build that isn’t S/D (because PU is more for solo roaming which while annoying, not really OP). Fighting someone who stealths what feels like constantly isn’t fun for a lot of people, a view I get from how people hate of them both here and in game. Same issue with evades, even with the changes they still feel less like something you save to avoid the heavy hitters and more like something you just use when you can because it’s up often enough.

That’s an issue I have with many builds, they lack the deliberateness that GW1 had. Only a handful of builds really force you to be extra careful when using your skills. It gives the game a much more casual feel that I never got with GW1. I want every class to be punished for missing skills so that combat feels both fast but deliberate. It will also help from the Esports point of view because it would make fights less chaotic.

I’m all for making DS more functional. Right now it’s hard to say the class is bad, but it’s almost never a threat to me unless they start the fight with access to DS. When they do have DS, they feel like an unstoppable killing machine. When they don’t, you just gotta be ready to dodge a few dangerous attacks and you’re good. If you have CC it’s almost a joke.

Having DS be more “easy come, easy go” could make the class feel more rounded. What I mean is that it takes less time to gain Life Force, but in exchange you get to spend less time in it. This could be paired with a slight reduction in CD. This could even help with the stability issue a bit because Foot in the Grave could be activated more frequently. It would be like a strange middle ground between adrenaline and Attunments.

Let me open by saying this is not a “teef op nerf pls” post. I am well aware that the class has received a number of nerfs recently (although I still hate them because they hard counter my Mes if I don’t get the jump on them). This post is about what I dislike about the class’s design and why I find it inferior to the Assassin’s in GW1.

I have a level 80 Thief…but I honestly despise playing it. This is because the combination of the initiative system and weapon attack designs make the class feel “spammy.” Not matter what weapon set, the pattern is generally that one or two skills deal the damage and the rest are situational. Most builds you see generally stick in one weapon set and then have a shortbow for emergencies.

Now lets compare this to the GW1 Sin. It was a class that was generally used to burst down a single target quickly, same as Thief. However, where it differs dramatically is how that damage is done. Many of the more damaging combos were composed of a chain of skills that required certain prerequisites in order to carry on to the next attack. For example, you couldn’t use one skill unless your foe was knocked down or poisoned or you hit with another attack of a certain type first. If you screwed up your combo or they avoided a certain part, you had to start over. Some builds were more “spammable” where you only had a few attack skills and more utility. Even these builds still punished you for messing up your chain however and had less burst.

When you nailed that full chain on someone, it felt like you just did something impressive. That is not the feeling I get when I play Thief. Instead I either repeatedly leap through a smoke field to backstab or simply teleport in, use skill 3 a few times, then teleport back out and do it all over again.

The problem is, it might be far too late to change Thieves so that the damage is spread out among multiple skills so that it encourages chaining them. I’m also not a Thief main and maybe those that are really enjoy this playstyle. For me personally, I enjoy fighting most classes in the game. I think an important part of balance is that not only is something fun to play, but fun to play against. Fighting a Thief that constantly uses the same sequence of skills (again, not their fault, the game forces it) isn’t nearly as engaging. While all classes have obvious combos, they generally have longer CDs. In addition, on other classes you are swapping weapon/kits/elements so you are seeing at least 2 different fighting styles.

Here’s some bullet points because I’m sure as with many of my posts some of you will skim and then say something about something I mentioned already:

• The lack of CDs and the fact that only a few skills per weapon actually deal damage make the class feel repetitive or spammy.

• GW1 Assassin was more focused on chaining skills together that required prerequisites and failing along the way interrupted the chain and it was not easily restarted (with exceptions)

• The class would feel more skillful if currently situational or underused skills applied effects that increased the effectiveness of other attacks. In other words you may have to lower the damage of some skills by default but make them deal more damage if say the target is poisoned or knocked down.

• This could lead to some cool cross weapon combos. For example, a short combo on one set may lead to you being able to swap and deal more damage on another. This would encourage using your other set more often.

I actually want to hear the thoughts on the class’s design from main Thief’s. For me, every time I try and get into it I just can’t. I played Assassin a good amount (I played everything really, GW1 was easy to level/gear) and Thief just doesn’t feel like a real successor.

As a final point that I want to drive home, I am NOT a Thief expert. I do know the class’s strengths (like hardcountering all my Mes builds QQ) and weaknesses (“Oh look a Guard, I’m screwed”) but I find it even less interesting mechanically than Warrior, at least on that class I use both weapon sets frequently. I hope there’s a way to make the class feel more dynamic that doesn’t involve a complete overhaul because that is unlikely to happen.

What about some sort of middle ground? Once you stealth the skill will still track, but once you dodge they lose target. Thematically speaking, it doesn’t really make sense how you can still pew pew at a target when you can no longer see them.

Also, let’s not just look at this from a Thief’s point of view. I would say this tracking hurts Mesmers using Shatter/CI builds more. Skills like Decoy/Mass Invis are used to set up your next attack and isn’t that long in duration or spammable. Having to expend both dodges after stealthing to not be basically instakilled means your skill was worthless because you ended up doing nothing different than if you weren’t stealthed and also didn’t set up any new attacks.

My view on Mes has changed a bit after playing it for the last few days. The only build that has a ton of reliance on stealth is PU which is only really worth taking for 1v1s which isn’t worth balancing around imo. Shatter and CI generally only have Decoy and Mass Invis. That’s pretty good design.

I think it’s Thief’s stealth design that needs to be looked at more than anything else. If they were made to use it more like Mes, then having skills activated pre stealth not track would seem reasonable.

The 2 posts above prove that they didn’t read the OP at all.

Could I get the builds for the Boonshare and Mantra heals? I’m new to the class and the idea of running support sounds fun.

witcher.3197:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’m confused by this “hardcountered by Thieves” thing though because if you open up with a stealth and use that to set up you can pretty much one shot them become they have a chance to react. Sure if you get ambushed you might be screwed but if you save your Chaos Storm for defensive use all the aegis will keep you going. This is an actual game btw not duels, I don’t really worry about duel balance.

Shatter mes heavily relies on positioning and making gap with blink/phase retreat, with these skills you can kite a lot. But then you meet an S/D thief with multiple teleports, one of those has no CD, and making gap becomes impossible (they don’t even need line of sight for any of their ports). Or watch the recent WTS qualifiers, Levin on D/P jumps at Helseth in a teamfight, Steal + backstab = rekt – in 1v1 you can somewhat predict the burst, but in a teamfight there is no way, if the burst’s coming from stealth, there is 0 counterplay. You can’t even heal if you survive a Steal because you will have an extremely long Poison.

Yah I can see that, though I think because of my strategy of escorting the home guy at the start and then showing up “late” to the mid fight with the intent of ambushing their damage dealer. I find that it’s good for intercepting those that rush your home to deny the cap.

I feel like giving War stealth would be hilarious from a rage standpoint. Maybe something like giving them torch that has a smoke field so you could run it with sword for the ability to leap through for stealth then swap to a rifle with a sigil of intel. You know what though, it would still probably be bad.

Cygnus.6903:

Seriously Burr, you should stop trying.

Anytime somebody posts a topic like this, however strong your argument may be, you will get the inevitable ignorance of the gross amount of forum posters here to bury the topic.

You must understand by now that this discussion could only dwindle into bickering about wether or not you can compare skills on different classes to make a point. In this very specific example I believe you were right to do so, but you were also incorrect. Not because the comparison doesn’t make sense, as you are only making it to adress the fact that one mechanic does not work as intended where the other one does. But because you inevitably invited a horde of warrior haters to come and flame this illustrative example.

I like the idea of a cast time before Bull’s, then make it so you instant hit the target after the CT. Such an animation could actually look really cool, while still not insulting the warriors-can’t-use-magic-even-though-they-can-magically-transform-themselves-crowd. We’re playing a freaking fantasy game, get over yourself.

The cast must be longer then 1/2 second though, as that’s still not very much on a 900 range guarantueed 2sec knockdown (apart from blocking or evading). 3/4 second seems better. The warrior would still need to be able to move while casting though, otherwise it would be clunky as hell.

You’re right that 1/2 sec might be too short, but it was more of a throw out number just to give you an idea of how it would work.

As for the other issue…I should stop…but for some reason can’t. There are some people who will just post something to disagree with me because it’s me. It will also be clear that they never read the whole post.

Harper.4173:

I believe they went down this route and didn’t add cast timers and longer animations in the attempt to create a skill gap compressor.

I feel like it was more of an aesthetic choice. They made the combat more action-like than GW1 and wanted players to be focused on all the crazy animations that most games lack. You could argue that it’s more skillful to react to tell than to a cast bar that spells out what’s coming. With the current system you have to understand every class if you want to fight it properly. Mesmers are so much less threatening now that I play one, because I can more easily recognize the gestures. Of course, the outlier is that while you can normalize models in TPvP, you can’t anywhere else so asura still have an advantage (sometimes even Charr, just because some animations just look different) in WvW or hotjoin.

While I miss the cast bar sometimes as someone who liked to play lockdown in GW1 because seeing the bar get suddenly stopped in its tracks was satisfying, it also made it easier. If you want to interrupt in GW2 you got to be much faster on the draw. Unfortunately though most interrupt/lockdown/control based builds don’t have cool rewards like draining energy, higher CD (Power Block isn’t that popular), and the like are much less common. GW1 had a crazy amount of stuff like that and they have tried to bring it back but it’s just not there yet.

Chaith.8256:

insanemaniac.2456:

Chaith.8256:

Bhawb.7408:

Power creep is bad. If one single field out of every single one is obviously far stronger than all the rest, it should be nerfed. The game has had enough power creep already.

Power creep is the gradual unbalancing of a game due to successive releases of new content.

Fire Fields, the same since 2012.

strength runes, not the same
phalanx strength, not the same
engis in the dungeon meta, not the same
cele gear/amulet, not the same

hmm what else has changed about might stacking builds since 2012 thats brought them into the spotlight… does more widespread game knowledge count? not really eh? ascended gear doesnt really count altho the ~5% damage buff is there…

Yeah actually before Strength Rune’s 45%+ to might, Might Stacking builds used to run 2Str/2Hoel/2/Fire and get +60% to might for might stacking builds.

Blasting might from fire fields didn’t grab huge power creep. The high might stacking options were not buffed in recent times, not even by strength runes, contrary to what some may think.

P.S., Cele Amulet has no interaction with might stacking.

In the past, particularly Engineer might stacking options were far superior. HgH builds and Enhanced Performance trait not competing with Incendiary Powder, both huge blows to the might stacking playstyle.

Celestial interacts with might stacking because celestial has stats in both power and condition damage, which is enhanced by might. So take high duration + the buff Cele ammy received in the Ferocity update (yes, it lost some crit damage, but gained buffs in every other category) and you get the monster that is D/D Ele and Hybrid Rifle Engi (Cele War is good in 1v1 but doesn’t have nearly as much sustain as the other 2).

While what some of the things you said are true, it’s impossible to deny that these builds were not nearly as good as they were before these changes. They have both good damage and good sustain. Part of the problem seems to be that since direct power was nerfed so badly hybrid obviously became stronger. Off the top of my head the only builds that use pure power now (and are considered viable/see frequent use) are most Thief builds, Shatter Mes, PewPew Ranger, and Medi Guard. Considering that before that list was much longer it’s hard to argue that diversity has taken a plunge since now the meta is something you’re better off running than countering.

The Ferocity updates just screwed with everything really. Nerfed power, buffed Celestial, changed how sigils work, etc. The sigil changes are something we tend to forget to mention. It became possible to put both Battle/Energy, Doom/Battle, Fire/Air, and so on together. This made sigils WAY more important since before you would have maybe 1 of those runes on a weapon and something like Force/Accuracy which were much less powerful.

I like the idea of Runes/Sigils affecting you’re build, but now they’re almost as important as your traits which ‘m not OK with. They should have kept it so that you can’t double up on “on swap” or “on crit/hit” on the same weapon. It’s a combination of all these changes that have lead to the current mess we are facing.

I disagree about Judge’s Intervention. While the skill itself doesn’t have a tell, you can generally expect it to be used as an opener and in combination with another skill. If you see them start an attack that is clearly out of range, then you can expect them to be in your face in a second. If you have it a tell on top of a tell it would be almost as bad as Bull’s Charge in terms of reliability.

Minor changes like those to Pin Down keep the skill usable but make it possible for you to tell when it’s coming. That being said some spells could use more unique animations, but even that has been improved. In fact, tells have been probably the one area of the game where ANet has been really solid.

What does need more expanding are visual effects for things like stability and some passives like OP said. If I have to glance up to make sure my CC will work and the target is swimming in boons then it could take up to a second, which is enough to get hit by a skill you would have otherwise avoided. Some of the Warrior stance auras could also do with being bigger but that’s about it.

Sagat.3285:

Relentliss.2170:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I still think we should just nerf might stacking first because it’s the +duration that makes things become silly (and the reason I started rolling Shatter Mes to help counter it).

I strongly believe this is the most sensible approach. I am not understanding why when I play a guardian a lot of the might I stack lasts for 5-10 sec (unless I blast) and when I play other classes 20-30. It seems a gigantic difference.

Oh can you guys explain why is it an issue only in pvp ? Be honest with your self….-_-*…

It’s a problem everywhere, but in PvP it stands out more. Before, you could only stack might for a short while so it was only a temporary attack boost. If you have a tanky ammy on, even if you stacked might your overall DPS was still much lower than a pure zerk. Now, you can deal consistently decent dmg and make up for the loss of dmg with might that stays around for a long time.

I actually swapped to Shatter Mesmer because it’s one of the few ways to keep D/D Eles from being monstrous due to the boon stripping. I think many agree that it’s just not OK to be both tough and hit hard. The more tanky you get, the lower your damage output should be, at least from a power damage standpoint.

Cele also makes things more complicated. Some skills have decent condi and power scaling so that both playstyles are viable. The problem is, cele makes it possible to be good at both. However, we should leave it be until we see what nerfing might stacking does.

Arken.3725:

Normally i’d say go ahead and look at the amulets/sigils/runes but my argument is this. If every profession were able to use all of those effectively then it wouldn’t be nearly as bad. However, since only a few class can actually use them and to a significant degree(engie,ele,warrior) while the other professions presents an issue with the classes themselves, not so much the amulets/runes/sigils.

It certainly is a tricky matter, the classes you mentioned are generally the only classes that can use the Cele + Strength to such a degree. However, they aren’t jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, more like just-kinda-good-at-everything. Taking another ammy might make you a bit more specialized by the amount of sustain you get on celestial in addition to all the dmg you can deal while might stacking and applying condis with straight dmg is generally just better on average.

I still think we should just nerf might stacking first because it’s the +duration that makes things become silly (and the reason I started rolling Shatter Mes to help counter it).

I’ve only been playing Mes for a little bit now but after trying 4/4/6/0/0 lockdown then making the swap to 4/4/0/0/6 Shatter I feel like Shatter wins by a long shot. There were moments were you could get that perfect series of interrupts and your DPS rapidly increases…or I could just use the build that gives me a huge burst that can almost insta-gib unaware targets with an easy setup. It also lets you take Portal which is just crazy useful when it comes to battlefield mobility.

I’m confused by this “hardcountered by Thieves” thing though because if you open up with a stealth and use that to set up you can pretty much one shot them become they have a chance to react. Sure if you get ambushed you might be screwed but if you save your Chaos Storm for defensive use all the aegis will keep you going. This is an actual game btw not duels, I don’t really worry about duel balance.

I still need to work on clone placement though, if you group them up you’re medi guard food.

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I have really, really bad internet and am having no major issues with Swoop/RB. The only issue I do have is that with RB I sometimes have to repress the W key to move after I land.

If someone stated they never had a problem with Bulls charge, in a manner that seemed to imply there is nothing wrong with the skill, would you accept that as fact? Look up the post on RB on the bug forums. There are 4 videos posted. In one, at around the half way point the players character does a 180 mid animation and ends up in the starting location, only facing the other direction. In another, at around the half way point the players character does a 90 degree left turn mid animation, and ends up facing the left direction. In another, at around the half way point the players character does a 90 degree right turn mid animation, and ends up facing the right direction. In the last, the players moves 25% of the distance, and stops moving, with the animation continuing, while no more distance is covered. With 4 pages of other players confirming they have had these problems

BurrTheKing.8571:

That doesn’t mean that nothing is wrong with them, but even when I fight people using said skills I don’t often encounter situations where I catch players using them because they stopped mid skill. In contrast, whenever a War uses BC against me, I just walk forward and even if they hit they can rarely follow up because I’ll be facing the opposite direction.

This is the case when I fight other warriors as well. It seems to me, that the problem is that the skill does not adjust with the movement of the targeted player.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, comparing Swoop and RB to BC seems ridiculous since the first 2 are generally used to create distance, or missing with them doesn’t significantly screw with your effectiveness. If Swoop doesn’t hit It doesn’t make my DPS garbage. When you miss BC it does. RB only does damage at the launch point, so comparing it to BC makes even less sense.

Here you go again, presuming to tell folks what the entire community uses skills for, when I can hardly believe you have encounter anything more then a very small fraction of players using those skills across 50+ servers of play. Your making a strong effort to down play others problems in an attempt to make your seem more pressing.

Your not being very community oriented with that mentality. So tell me, as swoop does more damage then Bulls charge, how are you claiming swoop is not losing damage compared to bulls charge?

• If Swoop misses, you have a much shorter CD

• If Swoop misses, you have the main combo of Hilt Bash and Maul, which is where most of the GS’s dmg comes from.

• If Bull’s Charge misses, it goes on a long CD.

• If Bull’s Charge misses, chances are you were using it to set up either 100b, Skull Crack, or a similarly highly telegraphed skill and have now missed that follow up. You now have a difficult to land skill that is almost worthless, and it may have not been your fault.

I never said the Swoop/RB issues shouldn’t be fixed, but I don’t understand why you can’t see that I would much rather have important offensive skills that make many weapons/tactics on a class unviable first. I want everything fixed, but with recent updates War has received a ton of heavy hits. Some of the few buffs it got would be useful if BC worked. As I said before I play every class but Ele, and of all of those classes I feel like Warrior is the most limited when it comes to build diversity. You are basically forced into using a bow in PvP and you only run a few double melee sets in WvW and that’s often due to food making movement impairments less painful.

runeblade.7514:

Burr what you are missing the point is that turning Bull’s Rush into a teleport will make it overpowered as hell.

If you want to get an idea, think of it like a thief with sleight of hand. Sleight of hand is a very powerful trait. However, this time Sleight of hand doesn’t daze anymore, it gives a 2 second knockdown and then the thief can heartseeker spam the enemy down very easily.

Warrior with the changed Bull’s rush will be like that. Except, There is no grandmaster trait required. Only a single utility skill.

Bull’s Rush is okay without a teleport because there is a cast time and that enemies can dodge it. It is much better if ANet fixes the bug than use your suggestion.

My proposed change does not make it an instant teleport. What it does do is give an “aftereffect” visual that moves similar to what the current skill does. At the same time this plays out the Warrior is doing a “cast” of around a 1/2 second, which is about how long the current skill takes to do its thing. At the end of this “cast” the Warrior teleports and KDs the target. If the skill misses via dodge or what have you you still “teleport” but the skill misses of course.

What you’re seeing as a player is very similar to identical to what you see in the current skill. The only thing that changes is what is going on under the hood of the game. It’s just using more reliable mechanics. You will have the same amount of time to react, but the skill will always hit when it should.

As for Rush, it’s less about making the attack connect and more about the attack launching as soon as you reach your target and not rooting yourself so that you stay on top of your target, rather than standing still and whiffing as they put the distance that you just crossed between you again.

P.S to many on this thread, the skill is called Bull’s CHARGE, not Bull’s RUSH. I point this out because Wars have another skill called Rush.

I’m trying to remain polite but it’s getting really annoying to repeatedly repeat the same thing about how you as a player will see little difference in how the skill works, and that only the mechanics will change. It will not make BC OP, it will just make it hit when it should hit, nothing more and nothing less.

The extra stats on Zerk and Ramp aren’t really significant enough to matter, especially since the only classes you see frequently using the ammy now are Thieves and Mesmers with the occasional Medi Guard or D/D Ele.

What really does stand out is Celestial. It was garbage before but the increase + The changes to might stacking has made builds on several classes way stronger than they should be. I would still say that the nerf should come to might stacking FIRST, then see how that affects Cele and decide if a nerf is needed from there.

coglin.1867:

Your are wrong. The swoop and RB problems occurred in empty maps. It happens when you touch any key at all during the skill animation. I have tested it, repeatedly, videos it and posted it in the bug forums. I never chose to spam the balance forums with it. As it has nothing to do with balance directly. As well, your suggestion as to when their functionality became bugged is wrong. RB and Swoop have always stopped in mid motion and stopped short as if they hit a wall.

I have really, really bad internet and am having no major issues with Swoop/RB. The only issue I do have is that with RB I sometimes have to repress the W key to move after I land.

That doesn’t mean that nothing is wrong with them, but even when I fight people using said skills I don’t often encounter situations where I catch players using them because they stopped mid skill. In contrast, whenever a War uses BC against me, I just walk forward and even if they hit they can rarely follow up because I’ll be facing the opposite direction.

Also, comparing Swoop and RB to BC seems ridiculous since the first 2 are generally used to create distance, or missing with them doesn’t significantly screw with your effectiveness. If Swoop doesn’t hit It doesn’t make my DPS garbage. When you miss BC it does. RB only does damage at the launch point, so comparing it to BC makes even less sense.

This seems pretty unfair to the team with 5 players. Punishing the other team for what 1 dirtbag did just seems wrong. There are other ways to reduce the number of 4v5s without hurting the team that did nothing wrong:

• Make every player “Read Up” before you are transported to the arena like CS:GO. This means that if someone is AFK the game will not start and the team that had everyone ready up goes back into queue.

• If someone rage quits then allow the team with 4 players to /resign. If 3 of them do, then the game ends. The team with 5 is credited with a win, but the side with 4 players don’t receive a loss. No one is punished, and the team that would have probably won anyways still gets the win without having to play a boring 1 sided match.

Those 2 changes would make there be fewer 4v5s at the start because most are AFKs, and would make those that result from rage quits wouldn’t result in a loss that you didn’t deserve.

coglin.1867:

Your not doing anyone any favors by trying to suggest it is more of a problem for warrior skills and implying they need special treatment. As a player who plays multiple professions, it would seem to me that you will simply segregate yourself from support on the issue from the rest of the community.

If they can fix them all at once, great. Here’s the problem, they probably won’t. Also, there’s 2 separate problems here I think. Skills like Swoop and Rocket Boots are worse than they were before due to the game lag being so much worse than it used to be. This affects Bull’s Charge as well, but it also didn’t work that good before this either.

This is probably because the mechanics and coding behind just don’t seem to work all the time. The other gap closers all generally worked before the September patch, now they don’t. BC since launch worked…OK…but never great. Lag has been getting steadily worse.

In summation, the other leap/gap closing skills seem to be having problems not due to mechanical issues, but lag ones. In contrast skills like Bull’s Charge and Rush are broken on a mechanical level which is why I focus on them. I play every class except Ele, and I used to before I deleted it. No other class has such severe issues with their gap closers. If you want to test it yourself, find a PvE area with a low population and you’ll most likely find that most gap closers work fine. Now of course this isn’t good for testing War skills because most mobs just stand there but if you attack them then fall back and use BC/Rush you’ll still find yourself missing when you try to hit them while they move.

coglin.1867:

Yet you do not correct the post that over exaggerated it and claim it "never hits the target? It works just as well (or as poorly) as swoop on the ranger greatsword and engineers rocket boots.

For me, I would say that it connects less than 50% of the time. This is when I am in range and the target is doing nothing that would cause it to hit. Another 25% I hit but it causes one of the funky effects I’ve mentioned before.

Also, those 2 skills you mentioned have much less powerful effects and much lower CD than BC. It’s bad that they don’t work, but generally your entire build doesn’t revolve around it. Missing a 40 sec CD 2 second KD through no fault of your own really sucks, especially when it comes to using weapons that have a highly telegraphed attack.

It’s also clearly not just me having this problem, or we wouldn’t of had so many +1s on that other thread.

It seems like you and others are opposed to doing anything to fix Warriors because it’s Warriors and we all love dat War hate train Choo Choo. If you want fixes for other class’s skills then make a thread about that, this thread is about Warriors.

shimmerlessEU.6841:

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Yes pls, moar all in one package builds/classes please, kick the sacrifice from other specs already ;P

Yah, I seriously don’t understand the hate for Medi Guard. It is one of the more high risk-high reward builds out there. It’s strong but has several big weaknesses. It’s not like trip kit of D/D Eles that have an answer to everything.

Also, I’m getting really fed up with people not reading the full post before responding. It’s obvious because some of you are referring to things that have already been addressed.

I am not saying Med Guard isn’t high risk/reward (in a sense) I am saying that its actual in-combat design is poor, constant instant cast teleports creates an arms race situation that favors high invulnerability uptime. It is the exact same design motif with sword Thief which warped the game in a negative direction for so long.

If ArenaNet is afraid of ledgers they need to reduce the power of range, not create porting assassin specs to effectively shut them out of the game. This is what they did with HGH back when it was overbearing and it worked just fine. For a game that is based on capture points it is focused far too much on the strength of range and kiting to begin with.

Then you should just say sword guardians only then. Since non sword builds don’t have any constant/frequent teleports, and if they do have a teleport it’s just JI , which hovers around a 36 s CD to kitten , thief is a different issue, and how are you even comparing a sword thief with flashing blade , when Thieves have a large array of teleports, ranging from shortbow 5(No CD, int cost), Shadow step, Infiltrator strike/Shadow return(init cost, no CD,immoblize, condi remove), steal, signet of Agility, those are all teleports/ Shadow steps, 2 of them not needing a target.

I am comparing them because they fulfil almost the exact same role. Sword Thief has been much more popular than Med Guard because it is simply more powerful (particularly w/r/t mobility), however it is very easy for that to change, apex setups have been dumped in the gutter and vice versa with ArenaNet’s volatile and unpredictable patch cycle. The biggest difference between the two is that Med Guard is completely all-in, meaning it suffers in team fights and can’t escape unfavorable matchups. If this ever changes we will just have a different flavor of Sword Thief to deal with.

Basically the design of instantly blinking around with innate blocks and dodges is bogus. I know why it exists and I’m saying that ArenaNet is completely wrong-headed in promoting these types of setups.

How else would Guardians ever hit anything without them? I typically run scepter instead of sword so for me the only gap closer I have is JI. Without it you would be unbelievably easy to kite.

Anyways, this is off topic so can we get back to the matter at hand please?

I’ll spend some time trying to to master the class and see if I can enjoy it. Part of me thinks the clone idea fits with what the class was in GW1, the other part misses hexes on both Necro and Mes. The GW1 equivalents don’t feel the same. I think a big part is that I miss the cast bar. Seeing it be interrupted was so satisfying.

Come on, you’ve read enough of my posts to know that I have stated repeatedly that I don’t like comparing abilities on different classes, but in this case it’s less about balance and more about function.

Both skills serve to get the user close to the enemy, that’s as far as my comparison goes. It’s all about the skill working properly. With a cast time of 1/2 second the skill would still take roughly the same amount of time to complete the action that the current BC but it would actually connect every time (in theory). Again, this is mostly about mechanics, not function. Teleport works while the rush doesn’t.

If ANet manages to fix these gap closers, great. However, if it has something to do with the engine then skills with non-functioning mechanics should be switched over to ones that do.