Guild Wars 2

Zagerus.8675:

Burr, I think there’s some great info in these theory craft threads. I’ve been reading them consistently and I imagine a lot of new players have taken away a lot of stuff they can use in upping their game as well. At the end of the day I think that’s the kind of impact you want to have on the forums – people getting better at the game.

Thank you. I do still plan to continue to make such threads, but I was starting to feel that the builds I was running in Ranked was not benefiting my team as much as they could be. I decided that my personal enjoyment was not worth more than those of the other 4 players.

Cygnus.6903:

Maybe Stronghold will help you out Burr.

Meanwhile, just say goodbye to PvP entirely and just have fun only.

I do hope that it gives us more options. Since killing NPCs seems to be more important in this mode builds that focus on mobility and quick kill times might be more viable.

I’m actually managing to find enjoyment in Shoutbow only because I think I’m fairly good at it. It can be good to stop trying to be a DPS like teef and just focus on keeping everyone eles alive while still doing decent damage. Hitting a Final Thrust for the down is always enjoyable. I also splurged and got myself the Shadow Longbow, and I’m now broke.

BlackTruth.6813:

By stating “I submit” you may as well have said you’re not good enough in all honesty.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that considering not many people can handle completely melee specs on Warrior.

Better luck next time I guess. Some people are fated to stagnate and some people are fated to evolve, pretty much all there is to it.

The ego levels would make Vegeta feel inadequate.

I’ll state it for the millionth time: your builds are not viable. A teef or MediGuard bring either more mobility, or more team support. A Cele Engi with Rifle and Slick shoes has more useful CC because they can push players off point and then keep them off of it. A Shoutbow Warrior can also do Fear Me + Pin Down to take someone off point, and since there’s probably 2 of you they can also leap off point with sword and Flurry them just to ensure your team gets the decap.

Your Hammer + Axe/mace build has AoE that does nothing but keep the enemy on point because even when you use Fear me you generally chain it, and once Stability comes up (which can be handily provided by a Hammer MediGuard) you are reduced to spamming Axe attacks. Your build is a total one trick pony. It’s also selfish as well, no Banner to revive, no Bow to give might stacks. Any Warrior build can throw on Rampage and look effective, especially with the buff.

The biggest no-no for me is that your stability uptime is horrible. You got Last Stand which has a huge ICD and that’s it. You got 2 more stun breaks but those won’t stop you from being chained. Even Shoutbow is more reliable on the stomping aspect.

You’re builds are all basically dueling builds, all about you, very little for the team. Before you say “well mah CC” as I said before Engi can do CC juuussst fine and pulls/pushes are more valuable, especially fi you want to get someone out of the cap point instead of stomping.

Your builds you’ve been touting show off nothing that another spec cannot do better. End of story.

The whole idea is that you’re supposed to “trick” your enemy into bursting you so that you can actually get value for such a long CD heal. If you have to activate it, that means that if your enemy is any good they’ll just stow their weapon and kite you around for a few seconds. If you can pop it mid burst, you at least have a chance to trick them into giving you value. A enemy will probably also realize you don’t have Heal Sig and just space their damage out so that you never have a good time to use it.

Even as the skill is now I wouldn’t take it in WvW.

@BlackTruth.6813: You have yet to convince me (and apparently several others) that the heal is in any way viable for TPvP. You always link the same couple of videos in which it’s always Rampage that acts as your sustain, and that your heal only tricks players who forgot how it works. If you’re not getting over a 10k heal out of Defiant Stance, then it somehow manages to be worse than Healing Surge.

Against any team with TS, all it takes is one callout of “IGNORE THE WARRIOR” when you try to heal and you’re as good as dead.

Well, as some of you know I’ve been trying to theorycraft viable Warrior builds that don’t rely on a Longbow. Sadly, while I have found many “good” builds, none of them are worth taking in TPvP. The Longbow is just too darn good. It has a AoE that covers most points and the area around the point, it cleanses with CI reliably, allows for multiple leap and blast finishers that also lets you support your team, and a powerful source of bleed.

I relapsed after getting annoyed because I kept getting teamed up with Shoutbow Wars that didn’t know how to do their job correctly. They would never stand next to teammates when they did their shouts/horn and would not use their Combustion Shot to stack might for the team and would also never use the sword leap to gain a fire shield (which gives you might when hit). As much as I hate Celestial, the build is fantastic when played correctly (until you get teamed up with 2 Mesmers who refuse to swap).

One thing I did find is that I think there’s a decent argument for taking a GS/LB Warrior over a teef. While it’s lower burst damage, you have much more AoE and don’t have a heal that generally makes you do an adorable reverse roll off the point and better point presence in general. Taken with a Meditation Hammer Guard you play really well off of each other. You can use Pin Down to set up the Guards bursts and they can use Ring of Warding to lock them into your 100b. Their hammer 2 can also be used to give both of you more might when you use Combustion Shot.

Hambow and Axebow are still pretty decent, although I’m not sure if they’re worth taking over Shoutbow.

This doesn’t mean I’m going to stop trying to make new builds, I’ve just admitted that double melee builds are generally selfish by design and best used in WvW roaming. Providing team support and doing damage is way more important than what Skullcraker offers, the builds are also generally more reliable because Skull Crack has been tending to be unreliable as of late.

Solstice.1097:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Once players discover a build that does a particular role better than any of the alternatives, they’re going to use it till a better option is found.

This. All it takes is for one top player to swap out a utility and use it effectively and BAM! it’s now “meta” That’s what I mean – the meta is not a real thing in and of itself, it’s determined by the player’s themselves. Players don’t play builds because they are “meta” – the builds are “meta” because players play them. It’s easy to get that backwards.

What I am really getting at with this topic is if you see someone on your team with a unique build you shouldn’t flame and shame them and get all upset about it. This happens too much. Some of these “unusual” builds will really surprise you but if you just give up from the start or assume the player is bad, then you aren’t even giving them a fair chance to prove their viability (because you aren’t supporting them as a teammate).

The meta is a comfortable place to fall back on, but it isn’t the end-all for viability of builds.

But the majority of the time these “unique” builds are probably weaker than the meta. If someone joins and says “don’t worry gueis my p/d trap teef got dis” you probably know you’re in for a bad game. I wouldn’t complain about a modified Hambow Warrior or a pure condi engi because both of those are solid builds. It’s when people throw crap together “for the lols” and play ranked games is when people get rightfully angry.

I disagree.

There are multiple roles that generally must be filled in order to be successful in GW2 PvP:

• Support
• DPS
• Bruiser

There are also sub categories that include:

• Conditions
• Control
• Speedster

If your build does not excel at any of these categories, it’s probably not viable. Why did we see Shoutbow become a thing? It’s because Guardian support just doesn’t bring as much to the table when D/D Eles and Cele Rifle Engis bring enough boons and healing on their own to where you don’t really need the kind of support that a shout Guard brings.

I can’t think of any other build that brings the amount of condi cleanse, healing, might stacking, and vigor that Shoutbow has.

A S/D teef has the ability to quickly burst down a target, and also retreat if things go bad. MediGuard brings DPS and potentially some support as well depending on your setup. Now, if the port changes actually work, there might be some openings because the mobility aspect of both might be diminished. I know the GS/LB build i use can beat both of those builds 1v1 and I also have comparable speed, in fact if they get the port changes to actually work I’ll probably be faster than most teefs while also not having to retreat as much.

When it comes to bruisers though, you just can’t beat Celestial D/D Eles and Rilfe Engis. They both have decent damage and decent sustain and the damage comes from multiple sources. What makes these builds strong is a mix of multiple problems encompassing anything from traits, sigils, and Cele itself. I don’t mind Cele existing but it should be a master-of-none rather than the good-at-all it currently is. I think on the Engi side (which i am more familiar with than the Ele side) is that with Cele and a traited Tool Kit along with Slick Shoes you have decent regen in addition to the ability to blast heal using both your skills and your teammates in addition to a block that not only has a long duration but also a fairly short CD.

When I play Engi I generally just feel like the complete package. I have perma swiftness and a rifle skill that can act as a way to escape. I have either a low CD stun break that also gives me the ability to knock someone down for several seconds or I have a kit that also has a stun break, and great team support. With EG 1 you can keep any zerk at bay with a lot of Weakness.

In order to balance Engi there would need to be multiple small shaves to several different things. From what i can tell Ele is the same. I don’t want these classes removed from the meta, I just want other classes to have a spot on a team.

In conclusion, the meta is the meta for a reason. Once players discover a build that does a particular role better than any of the alternatives, they’re going to use it till a better option is found. It’s possible that there’s a build out there that does what the current meta does better. If that happens, then players will gravitate towards it. This isn’t about popularity, it just means that a better build was found. Shoutbow is a good example, it existed in theory for a while but it didn’t see much use until other Warrior builds were nerfed and MediGuard was buffed. Right now, the Holy Celestial Trinity does things better than most any other build out there. Where there’s room for change lies in the Zerker Roamer role. There’s also the possibility of discovering a strong counter-meta, but I haven’t seen anything that’s good enough to warrant replacing one of the Trinity.

This is really ranty but the point is that the meta is a real thing that will always develop in a competitive game. Any changes means that something more effective has probably been found. Anyone who takes a game seriously will probably not let their own preferences keep them from running the most effective build. As someone who isn’t super serious, I don’t always run the meta, but I try to at least run something that is good at multiple roles. I’m not going to run Static Discharge Engi because I know for a fact that S/D Teef is just better. However, I may run GS/LB Warrior because it is on about the same level imo.

choucs.4507:

You can ask Korean Knight for a GS/S/SH BUILD LOLOLOLOL

I…I don’t know who that is.

Hey there, I’ve been messing around with this build right here. It started off as a joke build in response to the rumored Z axis change that will somehow make Teef totally unviable. I was gonna say that this build is TOTALLY gonna replace Teef.

As it turns out it’s not that awful.

If you ask me this change will be positive for anyone who wants to be the zerker on their team and isn’t a teef. The ability to abuse the Z-axis gave them a mobility that other classes have no access to.

I play a decent amount of Mesmer, and I think this change will end up being a positive change overall because now their (often times) hardcounter will be more limited in terms of mobility so we may end up seeing less of them. Less teef = less risk to playing a Mes. Especially if this means teef Sword 2 needs LoS in order to work, no more retreating behind cover when things look bad. Now, when they use that skill they still have to be exposed to some sort of risk when they return. Same with other shadowsteps.

Is this change bad for teefs? Yes. Is this good for classes that lack teleports? Yes. It’s not OK to have only 2 classes (MediGuard) dominating the Zerker spot of a team.

EDIT: This will also help Necros I would imagine. Before, someone could just port up to them and ruin their positioning, now that may not be possible so good Necros who know where to stand will be rewarded. So once again, bad for some, good for most.

So, after that drama with them potentially closing up terrain exploits using teleports I wanted to make a build that would poke fun at those that feel that they’ll be worthless after this change (if it happens). Now, I intended to make a terrible Sword/GS build, but what I got was actually surprisingly useable.

One Hundred Flurries

The crit chance on this is absurdly high because you have points in Arms, Rune of the Pack, and Opportunist. You’’ll average around 70% crit chance. I’m actually wondering if Assassin Ammy would be a better choice, I’ll mess around with it later.

I think many, myself included, look at builds that use Sword and GS as only being good for running away. However, once you get someone bellow 50% with this build if you can land a Final Thrust and a Arching Slice, they’re probably dead. Axe doesn’t work as well because you can’t use both Evis and Arching Slice. When they’re not below 50% you can actually somewhat reliably land Bull’s Charge by using the Immob from Baldetrail to set it up and Flurry + 100b as well.

I am finding though that like all builds that don’t take something like Inspiring Shouts or Burst Mastery that adrenaline gain can be an issue. Although, the quick attack on sword and the frequent immob helps a bit. I’m gonna test out a build like this later, but I think Leg Specialist is what makes this build work.

BlackTruth.6813:

Phaeton.9582:

this isn’t about balance. don’t make this about balance. this thread is about limiting gameplay, and people that just want to play deathmatch and/or warriors voicing their support.

What? Limiting gameplay? Did you seriously just use such a fail argument? High level play is also pidgeon holed into having an Ele because in Foefire, for example, they can blink through ledges AND watch points effectively or decap effectively because of it.

You’re saying the vertical range teleport doesn’t enforce the meta in a sense? Please.

Also, you’re saying that vertical range teleport is balanced? Okay let’s give Warrior and Engi’s a high jump.

You’re just worked up because you won’t be able to abuse broken mechanics anymore Phaeton. And I don’t believe you were ever good on your Warrior back in the Quickness days to know “what is high skill cap” and what isn’t. Smart move to re-roll into Guardian.

Part of me now wants to see stomp be a skill similar to Engi Rifle 5 but have the vertical takeoff be really high.

Bran.7425:

BlackTruth.6813:

Back then Quickness what was made Warrior somehow viable back when it was 100% attack speed increase. Right now apparently it is the same analogy for Thief and Mesmer where abusing vertical range is what makes them viable.

The difference between the two is that Warrior back in the days was completely crippled by the incompetent nerf for Quickness because EVERYONE knew that they would need heavy compensation after the Quickness nerf.

Thief and Mesmer on the other hand will need to wait whether they will need that compensation or not because I don’t believe that this nerf will make them completely useless when the nerf happens as soon as the patch hits.

If they had only hit the quickness on frenzy then you might have add something there, but the warrior community has a habit of claiming every universal change in the game is a direct nerf to that profession. As the player base improved that took out a lot of strength of the aforementioned play style.

The Quickness nerf + the Berserker’s Power/Heightened Focus move hurt Warriors DPS capability, but that change gave way to buffs that made the class viable. Then, the Ferocity change nerfed the pure power DPS once more. This is when Wars started getting more and more locked into Cele/Longbow.

So, while the changes did affect other classes, you can’t deny that War variety has been steadily taking hits. Most builds are just minor variants of others.

I agree with those saying that if you think Mes/Teef HAVE to have this terrain bug in order to be viable that the problem is with the class, not the change. Also, not every map allows for this sort of bug to happen. I play my fair share of Mesmer, and while not a perfect class I never felt I HAD to abuse these spots in order to sustain. It’s all about knowing when to pop your invuln and use it to get out of danger with whatever you have available.

While there are games that have had unintended features become a staple of the game doesn’t mean that ALL exploits should follow this path.

blubberblasen.3901:

2 necros 2 rangers 1 x
2 engis 2 warrior 1 x
1 necro 1 ranger 1 warrior 1 engi 1 thief
1 ele maybe cele or zerk 2 ranger 1 × 1 necro

Ah 2 ranger 3 x
2 necro 3 x
1/5 games there is a cele ele
1/5 games there is a cele warrior

I think its the power ranger and con necro meta

all ppl that say nerf cele are hopeless, nerf something thats not exists LOL
ah i play on eu server.

I feel like you must be playing in an alternate reality version of the game and somehow your post passed over into our dimension.

Three of the most popular builds utilize Cele: D/D Ele, Rifle Engi, and Shoutbow Warrior. Many successful teams run with any combination of 3 of them, one of the viable power builds such as MediGuard or S/D Teef. The last one will probably be a pure condi of some sort or maybe a turret Engi or LB ranger if it’s one of the more vertical maps.

There was a time where the NA and EU metas were fairly different, but these days cele is so strong it’s used everywhere.

/OldManRantStart

Warriors have been forced into their current Shoutbow role because everything else is just obsolete to another class. Want DPS? Better off with a MediGuard, S/D Teef, or Shatter Mes. Wanna play CC? Engi has better conquest oriented CC (pushes and pulls) and the ability to knock an entire area down and have great condi. How about condi? Sure, you can put out a TON of bleeds, but a Terrormancer will remove boons and apply chain Fear.

Builds like Hambow, Axebow, and Macebow are all decent, but aren’t as useful as a D/D Ele or Cele Rifle Engi. It’s no wonder Shoutbow is what they ended up in. No other class can do quite that much condi removal and team might stacking. It’s funny, this build was used in the past, but wasn’t nearly as good because Celestial wasn’t as good. All the other ammys required a sacrifice of either healing or damage (either power or condi). Cele doesn’t force that tradeoff, it’s good at everything.

Shoutbow also has decent adren gain due to shouts. Try running a Warrior build without at least several traits dedicated to adrenaline gain. If you don’t have both Cleansing Ire and Burst Mastery or CI + Inspiring Shouts, CI +…..Sharpened Axes or Berserker’s Might? You can somewhat manage, but then you lose what Warrior used to excel at, getting stronger as the fight goes on. I’m totally fine with Warrior having a good support option, but in the process of nerfing older metas like Hambow so many balanced builds were destroyed. Part of me likes the adrenaline change because it makes landing bursts more skillful, but the reward for landing anything that isn’t a bow burst is now barely worth it.

Cele is of course part of the problem, but there’s a lot of parts to this problem. There’s also sigil stacking (Fire/Air, Doom/Geo) and attacks scaling too well for too little investment.

/OldManRantEnd

I too spent last night messing with a build that uses Distracting Strikes. However I went a different direction with it.

Non-Cele Hybrid S/S Hammer

I use sword mainhand because the bleeds you chug out will be how you sustain your damage in between Hammer attacks. Speaking of Hammer, with this setup you’ll still hit hard even with Carrion. However, you don’t try to chain lock like normal. Instead, aim for interrupts and give them juuusssst enough time to recover so that on the next attack you can get another interrupt. If you get 12 stacks of Confusion then each action will deal from 1.7k to 1.9k damage. Swap back to Swords in range and you’ll burry that confusion as well.

Dand.8231:

Burr, it’s always sad for me to return to the forum literally a year later, and see almost an identical post to some of the ones others posted a year ago. Looks like the War class hasn’t gotten a lot of love.

We were THE meta for a while, but rather than making small shaves, they went and chopped off our magnificent beard!

I would have been OK with the adrenaline changes, if they had also adjusted adrenaline gain to compensate.

We’re now in the “good, but not great” category if you want to say, fill the same role a Mediguard or Teef does. I had decent success with Hammer/GS 00626 though. Hammer is still a solid weapon.

Caedmon.6798:

" i sometimes even noticed that trying to shoot through a turret (with crack shot enabled) would cause the shot to be obstructed. "

Every target that comes infront of your los will be hit instead.For E.g when you just press killshot aimed at a necro,a guardian walks infront of your los with aegis up.your killshot will be blocked by him,eventhough you aimed at the nec.
Other then that random terrain obstructs do happen far too much,and it’s pretty painfull to see it happen on a burst skill.

With Crack Shot, the shot should pierce the turret and hit its target and anything behind it. The block is a different matter, the shot got blocked, it hit the aegis and shattered. It’s when it just refuses to pass through the target that it becomes a bug and not a mechanic.

Also, have any of you noticed that Volley and Brutal shot LOVE to cancel themselves if the target moves even a little bit to the side. This will happen even if you remain stationary. Kill Shot will allow you to do a full 180 degree turn if the target teleports or moves behind you. I don’t know if this is intended, but it makes the weapon awful vs anyone that knows this fact. Just walk past the rifle user and the most damaging skill is useless.

Rifle on Warrior is something that seems fun…but is actually pretty boring imo. Rifle on Engi is much more interesting, you got a net, a cone AoE, a powerful CC that also has a big downside, and a fun skillshot that also hits hard. In contrast Warrior gets a shot that cripples, a bunch of shots, a shot with a bit of a charge that gives a easily cleansed condi, and one cool skill in rifle butt. Personally, I would enjoy it if more skills on War rifle were aimed abilities. For example, Maybe make Volley a long, thin aimed cone AoE. It would be different from Blunderbuss in that the end of the cone would be where the most hits land. If the cone was a range of 400 there would be some cool synergy with Rifle Butt. Brutal Shot could be a long, straight rectangle divided into 3 sections. The section in the middle would deal bonus damage.

Kill Shot is tricky, part of me thinks it’s OK as it is now, the other part would like it to be a tiny line skill shot with a smaller channel time. That sort of thing might either make the skill too hard or too easy.

Before you say anything, yes I know we’ll never get these kind of changes. I just think it would be nice to have the rifle be more skill based.

I’ll just say what I always do. The design philosophy behind this game is cooperation, not competition. I often visit dueling servers, but only to test build concepts. Those servers bring the worst out in people. There’s groups of people that will waste over an hour zerging them. Now, imagine if certain players were to have access to dueling anywhere. Even if there was an option to auto-deny duel requests, you would still get people who follow you around spamming garbage like “come on **** duel me”, “Don’t be a **** and fight you ****”, “Figh me *”, etc.

These people exist in all games, but they are kept in check by the mechanics of this game not allowing them to be “lol trol” outside of some very limited areas.

Another point, this game balances builds around how they affect team fights more than 1v1. Sure, there are plenty of 1v1 builds, but many of them are ONLY good at 1v1. They may also have a obvious hardcounter. What’s the point of a duel in a game where fights can basically be rock-paper-scissors? In addition, most PvE players run builds that aren’t designed for fighting other players.

I would be OK with more PvP server options so that owners can set them up in any way they want. For example, the King of the Hill servers sound cool, but you HAVE to use a fast clicker if there’s a decent number of players on. Some sort of queue system would be nice. You click the join for w/e side and you get in based on what order you pressed it in.

So, I’ve had a Necromancer for quite a while but haven’t bothered to actually play it very much. I have spent a lot of time on Warrior, Engi, Guard, and Mes with a bit of time on Ranger and Teef (all level 80). Now it’s Necro’s turn, I want to know how it plays and what to look for when fighting one in case we eventually see them brought up into the meta. I normally enjoy high damage or CC specs so except when Dumbfire was a thing they were never a huge threat, and even then one Skull Crack on my War and they were probably dead.

More importantly to me however, I want to theorycraft. Jumping on to metabattle and grabbing a Terrormancer build is all well and good, but Necros have a ton of access to Chill, and I hardly ever see it used (granted, I hardly see any Necros that aren’t MM or Terror). Any sign of Chillmancer builds seem to be from a long time ago and are no longer up to date.

I have a busy work schedule so I wanted to get professional Necromancer’s opinions on this before I waste my free time on a worthless build. I’m sure I probably went too far into the whole chill aspect, the the idea of not having to be fast because I can just make everyone slow is appealing.

Chillmancer Concept

I only came up with this by reading traits and trying to find some synergies, and while it looks cool (get it?) on paper I have no clue how well it will do in the field. I was looking at maybe epidemic over Spectral Armor so that I have the potential to slow the entire enemy team.

I don’t expect to be the one killing the enemy team, but rather making it easier for my team to do the killing. Denying the Cele builds of their regen with high poison uptime and making all of their skills take ages to come off CD sounds fun to me.

Please be as honest as possible, unlike the other classes I’ve played a lot of, I’m totally new to Necro theorycrafting. Maybe there’s some basically mandatory traits I don’t know about like Cleansing Ire/Fast Hands on War or Deceptive Evasion on Mes.

Lettuce.2945:

After seeing the OP complain about literally every single thing in dueling servers from thieves to “vanishing” pin downs when he shoots it into Elementalist swirling winds, not realizing it destroys projectiles…To lag and “living in the middle of nowhere”…I had a strong feeling I would see a post by this same said person complaining on forums…

Lo and behold! Boy, was I right…

Can you go a day without complaining about something? Seriously, you’re already garnering a reputation on dueling servers as “The complainer”. You literally have an excuse every duel. Just say “GF” and move onto the next one. God.

Oh look, it’s the guy who lies about what happened!

There were no winds, no dodges, no blocks, the Pin Down fired directly into the ground TWICE in a row the second fight. Oh, and after I won the first fight they said “I’ll play for real now” and “I haven’t played Ele in six months.” Yes, the guy who QQ’d about “excuses” literally started off with excuses.

Oh they also spam messaged me. They. Sent. Me. Messages. With. One. Word. Per. PM. Till. I. Got. Annoyed. Of. The. Beeping, and eventually blocked him.

Also, it’s pretty well known in those servers that “Old Man Burr” is a persona. Most find it pretty funny. A group of us are refining our builds or simply enjoy playing bad builds because it’s funny, Meanwhile you get mad about EVERYTHING, gank, and then you do the very thing you complain about.

Anyways, I’m not here to throw mud, so just like in game, I’ll be ignoring you now.

The build in my sig uses Mace/Shield with reflects, it’s good fun. I like to use the Braum’s weapons, the shield is fancy.

YuiRS.8129:

My bad axezerker build that’s been moderately successful for me:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQRAnZ8ejMd0FaVImhwJagqgC9iHANg6eoxj9UbAA-TpBFwACeAAIOCA12fo9BBoaZAAnAAA

Sigil of Generosity can be swapped with Hydromancy, but I like the Intelligence + Generosity combo, Warrior’s Sprint can be replaced with Vigorous Focus, Endure Pain with Signet of Stamina, Destruction of the Empowered with Mobile Strikes. The usual options.

I find Brawler’s Recovery to be incredibly good, Leg Specialist is paramount for dealing with kiting, setting up Final Thrust, and helping your team collapse on someone with a well aimed Throw Axe.

The builds deals good damage, can tank a bit thanks to Defense traits, stances and Shield Block, has a good amount of Cripple and Immobilize, can cleanse condies okay (obviously not nearly as good as Longbow). I find this builds to be one of the few that can actually pressure Cele Eles enough to force them on the defensive. The mobility offered by Savage Leap doesn’t need to be explained, you can juke very effectively with this build.

One suggestion, Destruction of the Empowered isn’t generally very good, especially with the decrease in traditional bunker guards. I would go Vigorous Focus.

lighter.2708:

i dont recommend blacktruth build because its not skillful and rely on auto stab proc and high cooldown skill like rampage and berserker stance to secure the kills

a no longbow build i recommend 20606/00626 gs axe shield with triple stance and signet of rage

there is bunker sword warhorn mace shield 20660 too

gs/rifle sword shield/rifle 62006 is also pretty reliable at shutting down bursties

The lack of Stability on demand is also a major sticking point for me as well. Sure, you have Stability, but because it activates automatically it may mean you wasted your Stability on a short Daze or something else and then when you actually need it you’re outa luck. Rampage is good enough now where it feels like that’s what’s carrying the build . Pop all your stances as you activate it and watch it go.

I still view Skullcracker as being superior. Sure, it lacks the AoE of Hammer but you gain the ability to totally shut down a high value target, and many current meta builds have no (or just one long CD) answer to a almost 4 second stun.

Sir, I believe you require more yolo!

Although, I actually like your current loadout from a fun standpoint.

Bran.7425:

BurrTheKing.8571:

That’s a good point, builds like this might either become worthless, or really powerful.

Looking at Anet balance history I would guess potiential overpowered at first (as they lowball the stacks on many skills) then worthless as they make adjustment to them as well as the control skill in a double-tap-make-sure-it-is-dead fashion

Wouldn’t shock me. Have you seen any of the Revenant footage? One of their utilities is a road that constantly gives Stability…that scares me as someone who always uses CC.

I typically go for counter-meta. What is the current meta good at? What’s it weak to? Then you build around that weakness. For example, Cele Engi is really weak to constant CC, and D/D Ele is also weak to CC after swapping to Water. My version of Skullcracker does good against Cele Engi, d/d Ele, and S/D Teef. Shatter Mes it depends on if you can avoid missing a single Skull Crack or force them you use Blink and Distortion early.

Bran.7425:

You might want to wait on the stunlock builds until they show the changes to all the stability skills.

That’s a good point, builds like this might either become worthless, or really powerful.

choovanski.5462:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNApZSnMdQlH25BmCCnIGoKoQfABwDoqHSfCddKA-TpBBwAEOBAkLDA4QAg5IAUd/hAPAAA

you can change sigils, and swap missile deflection out as well as run shield if there are lots of rangers. you are amazing in a teamfight. you can stack vun and stunlock the targert so your alies can burst them. your damage with hammer and might stacks and fury is good, allso you are tanky as hell. also you aoe heal and condi clear.

if there is another shout heal, or gaurdian you can run ballanced stance, but otherwise go 4 shouts.

The issue I always run into when trying Mace/Hammer is that you lack quick mobility outside of Warrior’s Sprint, and if someone uses a skill like Rampage as One, Rampage, or any elite that has a lot of stability, or just a build with a lot of stability in general you suddenly become almost useless. It’s a very fun spec though regardless.

Assassin X.8573:

BlackTruth.6813:

If you’re going to play Frenzy, I don’t believe you’re going to do well without zerk stance. Zerk Stance + Frenzy is kinda strong.

Rousing Resilience is crappy no matter what. It has synergy with Armored Attack, but I don’t believe it’s gonna work better than even Spiked Armor. Carrion S/S + Hammer, just absolutely no synergy with the condi damage. Any Hammer spec will probably need Soldiers/Sentinels/Knight’s.

If you’re going to make builds, it needs to make some sort of sense. I’ll give my Mace+Hammer spec as an example in a bit.

its possible to run the 20606 with full zerk both in pvp and wvw. ive done it with great success, and so has TDM,

as for your mace hammer build, which is nice and intersting and definitely unique, something similar to this ? Black Truth’s Jungle Doom Hammer Build

im not 100% sure of the sigils, but if i had to guess its something like this, right? or close to it?

Going by the video and his posts, I think it’s eother something like this or this.

I don’t feel like watching again to confirm if he has CI since I didn’t find the match that exciting.

I think the issue is still whether the build does anything better than any other build. IMO Cele Engi can do a good mix of CC, Power, and Condi damage while having much better sustain. Maybe the CC on this build can be longer and more AoE, but I still think other builds can bring more to the table. I don’t like Shoutbow, but it’s hard to deny that it bring great team utility while not being a slouch on the damage once you get that might going.

BlackTruth.6813, I’ve tried some of your builds, and I just wholeheartedly disagree with your build philosophy in many areas. The builds are very often carried by how good Rampage is now. That Axe/Mace Hammer build has one good chain of CC with decent damage but overall feels worse than a well played Mediguard (another spec I play often).

It’s not that what you run is bad, but that another class can generally do something similar but better. I like Skullcracker because it can do things that no other class can do. It baits out stun breakers and also has the ability to do the longest stun in the game, allowing you and your damage dealers to focus down problem targets. Having a GS allows you to take advantage of this stun and you get good roaming potential. Also, I prefer my stability to be on demand for stomping.

How is Cleansing Ire any less brainless with a bow than with double melee except that with double melee you can be screwed over by the other person lagging or Earthshaker deciding that the terrain is just a bit too uneven. The change would just be a hedge against factors out of your control.

Having BR remove poison would be a way to counter the over popularity of sigil of Doom (which is a far bigger crutch than anything I’ve suggested) without having to nerf the sigil itself. Taking it with CI would be pointless because you would already be OK on the removal front, it would just be a way to get you out of the Defense line if you want to.

IMO Stances are mechanically boring and not complex in the least. You try to avoid needed the stance, then you use it at the right time, don’t oversell the complexity there.

I’ve been seeing a healthy number of posts asking for builds without LB or feedback on builds w/o it. So, here’s a place to do all that. I love me some theorycrafting so let’s get to work!

I’m working some ungodly hours this weekend (11pm-7am Fri-Sat, 3pm-7am Sat-Sun, 2:30pm-9:30pm Sun) but I have downtime on the midnights and I have some ideas that I can put out there if anyone wants to test. A lot of them are gimmicks that are probably terrible mind you.

S/S Hammer Hybrid Without Cele

Probably crap, but I wanted to use Mad King runes and this is what I came up with. Rather than chaining Hammer skills you want to give them jusssst enough time to start using another skill so you can get some more confusion on them. You could mess around with traits and utilities, I just foresaw condis being an issue without CI. Something like this might be better.

A Terrible Build But I Want To Use Rousing Resilience

The weapons can basically be whatever you want. Frenzy can also be swapped but I thought maybe the trait would downplay the extra damage.

Quickness For Days

Again, it’s probably awful. Let the Sigil of Rage pop first, then Bull’s + Frenzy + 100b then hopefully you’ve gotten them to have and Last Chance starts. I’m trying to get away from Cleansing Ire and using Brawler’s Recovery and runes to keep condis off long enough to kill the enemy before they wear you down.

BlackTruth.6813:

YuiRS.8129:

That’s the question. I hate the Longbow bunker brainless playstyle with a passion. Is there any way to play something else without being a detriment to your team? Metabattle.com doesn’t have an answer.

http://www.twitch.tv/blacktruth009/c/6259903

http://www.twitch.tv/blacktruth009/c/6152446

But they take A LOT of skill to play. You have to be patient.

P.S Try to not listen to the whiners like the guy above me, listen to yourself and just keep being a better player while you’re at it.

You keep listing those videos, but how are people supposed to try them without the traits/runes/sigils? I’m pretty sure I can tell just from the gameplay but to someone not into theorycrafting it helps to have a reference.

We’ve seen a lot of these, but I feel like it’s important to continue to have posts like these in the hope that they will be addressed. The issues are somewhat in order of most importance, #1 being the highest priority imo.

1. Longbow Dependency: Look at the majority of popular Warrior builds: Shoutbow, Hambow, S/S LB Condi, Axebow. Notice the pattern? This problem has multiple layers:

A. Cleansing Ire only activates on a burst skill hitting. If you run double melee, missing a burst skill can be a death sentence. No wonder even after all the nerfs LB is popular when it’s the only weapon that can basically guarantee a cleanse. Traits like Brawler’s Recovery are certainly useful, but even then you’ll probably still need Cleansing Ire for Adrenaline gain because now you have no access to Burst Mastery. Which brings me to another issue…

B. Near-Mandatory traits. Because of how critical Cleansing Ire and Fast Hands are, you’ll almost never see a build without them. That means at least half of your trait points are basically decided for you even start making a build.

Possible Solutions: This would obviously require play testing for balance, but having CI just activate on Adrenaline use (as in spent on a hit or a miss, not on a cancel) instead of only on hit would make Wars less dependent on LB. I’m not normally for rewarding failure, but it’s still way more active of removal than say Empathetic Bond or Purity. Another option would be buffing Brawler’s Recovery to remove Poison or Blind in addition to one other condition. This would give more glassy builds the ability to forgo the Defense trait line in favor of more damage AND would reduce reliance on CI/LB.

As for Fast Hands, if you don’t want it to just be a part of the Warrior class, what about making it the first minor trait in the Discipline line? That’s 2 extra points to put where you want.

2. ONE viable heal. You could maybe argue that Defiant Stance has some situational uses, and the idea behind it is cool, but there’s no denying that Healing Surge and Mending are just bad. Healing Surge is often counterproductive because you end up in a situation where you get bursted right after using all your Adrenaline and now you’ve got a low heal on a long CD. Mending seems like it could be a Godsend for more glassy specs. With Restorative Strength, you basically have a full cleanse at your disposal. The healing is so small though. I’ve tried so many times to make it work, and I always come to the conclusion that Healing Signet is better. In PvP, I think Defiant Stance could use a higher base heal or a lower CD. Anyone with any knowledge will simply stop attacking once they see it activate.

3. Broken Gap Closers: Bull’s Charge, fix it please.

4. Boring Stance Mechanics: Currently, stances are basically Signets with no passive. How is it possible to take up 2 or more stances at once? That would like like a game of Twister gone horribly wrong. They have the potential to be something like Engi kits and be interesting and skillful. I would rather they be more like GW1 where only one stance can be active at a time. To compensate, CDs and durations would of course need to be looked at. Of course, that means Balanced Stance needs to not be a boon, which I suppose would be fair enough because you lose the ability to reduce damage or condi duration but gain unstrippable stability.

The traits that are like stances could probably just stay as they are for the most part. Last Stand gives Stability and Defy Pain activates a trait called “Defy Pain” instead of a stance so that you don’t end up having it turn off another stance. Although, maybe that wouldn’t be such a bad thing.

5. (Boarderline) Useless Traits: Includes Thrill of the Kill, Short Temper, Powerful Banners, Vigorous Return, Cull The Weak, Sweet Revenge. Some of these have some situational use, but almost never are. There’s also seldom used GM traits like Burst Precision (just use Intel sigil), Last Chance (long ICD for a short burst of quickness, tho can be funny if used with Frenzy and Sigil of Rage and you can get them to not overlap), and Rousing Resilience (although since I think it triggers just for using a stun break skill I could see some funny troll builds).

There’s more, but these are the big one’s imo. Feel free to list your own.

All I would want is more options for the current custom arenas. The King-Of-The-Hill servers seem cool, until you realize that the only way to get in is with a fast clicker tool, and even then it can be random.

The other standard duel servers are also has a tendency to become infested by trolls. If server owners had the ability to give others kick privileges then it would help.

NeXeD.3042:

Well unless you all magically say it at the exact same time it’s pretty hard to prove it’s not following suit =(

NA here and I’m still without lag…. just saying.

I don’t think you’re understanding me. EVERYONE on the server stops attacking/moving/typing/etc. When it comes back everyone is just standing there or autoing at a wall. You’ll then get a much of map posts saying “woah lag” “Lagggggg” “wtf was that!?”

I experience it the most on private servers but I’ve had it happen on ranked at well, generally during peak hours.

1. I think more would need to be done than that. If you ask me, the root of the problem is that the majority of the damage comes from a single, low CD attack. IDK how you change that without changing the skill entirely. Personally, I want more skills that are interrupt based and not just “press 2 to do dmg.”

2. I’m not against easy to play builds, but I am against easy to play builds being just as strong as more difficult to play builds. They should let players get accustomed to the game, before moving on to something more difficult that has a higher skill ceiling.

3. I would make the roots easier to kill by a small amount.

Pure power is pretty weak in general now. Even pure bunker has basically been replaced in favor of more cele builds. How needs a pure bunker guard when you can take a Shoutbow and pair it up with a Cele Ele and Engi? They all have enough of their own healing and with the heals from the War…well…who needs a specialized bunk when you’ll just do better with a bunch of cele builds that do everything well?

There’s also the issue of some classes’ power build options being lacking. I love playing Static Discharge Engi, but I have nowhere near the sustain/escape potential as the builds listed above. Skullcracker is good fun and strong 1v1, but obviously has weaknesses of its own. Power Necro can hit like a truck…until a Shatter Mes strips the stability of Lich or simply kills their DS. It’s no wonder why some classes get stuck in one role, the alternatives aren’t as good.

Sure, you can run what you want, but if the build like like is flat out less effective than the meta then all you’re doing is hurting your team.

So ANet, can we please get Cele under control and buff underpowered specs so that we get some more diversity? Even the condi meta was more enjoyable because it was possible to go all in to removal and thus counter it.

BolshoiBooze.3406:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Honestly, I would rather see LB skill 2 be changed to something like GW1 Savage Shot or Distracting Shot. Skills like these require skill to be effective, and would even make builds using Moment of Clarity more appealing. You could do something really cool like have have the interrupt activate before the damage, so you get bonus damage for the interrupt via the skill and the trait.

I would absolutely love a ranger build based on interrupts and moment of clarity. I don’t really see it happening without any major trait reworks and waaaaay more interrupts & skills with good power scaling though. Fingers crossed for hearth of thorns I guess.

Well, there’s a guy I like to duel named Fallou T and they use a build with it. I think this is wrong, but it looks something like this. I’m sure I’m off on some things (I think it might be Protect Me instead of Sig of the Wild) so next time I see them I’ll ask what they run exactly. In theory it’s REALLY strong 1v1 and has decent sustain vs both conditions and power. Honestly, whatever they run feels like a Warrior but is better in general. Hit Concussion Shot and have it interrupt, swap to GS and get a huge Maul hit.

Kreed.2768:

BurrTheKing.8571:

What I don’t see posters here discussing is the effect these Power Rangers have on the legitimacy of GW2 PvP. If ANet is still serious about making this game a legitimate Esport, do you really want such a mechanically simple yet effective build being so popular?

I would imagine that you would want to encourage builds that are more difficult to play so that even non-players can be impressed (like with me and Starcraft) by what is happening. However, if they tune in and see a guy sitting a mile away doing nothing but pressing his 1 and 2 skills for long periods for time…not really exciting.

Honestly, I would rather see LB skill 2 be changed to something like GW1 Savage Shot or Distracting Shot. Skills like these require skill to be effective, and would even make builds using Moment of Clarity more appealing. You could do something really cool like have have the interrupt activate before the damage, so you get bonus damage for the interrupt via the skill and the trait.

In my opinion most of the current meta builds are, as you say, “mechanically simple yet effective.” I’d be all for more reliance on more skillfull play in the game, but the problem extends further than just power ranger.

I agree, but I go on enough rants and wanted to attempt to stay on topic juussssssst this once.

NeXeD.3042:

BurrTheKing.8571:

NeXeD.3042:

BurrTheKing.8571:

There’s something up on the game’s side for sure. I’ve had games where everyone freezes up and after it ends basically everyone says something to the effect of “What just happened?”

I’ve also seen a lot of desync issues where I hit someone with Skull Crack, then a half second later they jump to where the server decides they actually are. Of course by then I missed my follow up attack.

i thought the when a player does something like that its usually them lagging, just make sure to at least talk to you ISP before you blame anet… im still without lag….

For the second one maybe. However, when the majority of a server all admits to freezing at the same time, that’s not my ISP.

I find when one person claims lag the rest follow suit especially if they are losing or dnt think they are playing well.

Are you EU by any chance?

No, US. Also this isn’t “following suit,” everyone brings it up at once. It hasn’t happened in a little bit but it does still happen from time to time.

Dand.8231:

Elvirais.5472:

I’m still learning the warrior, what’s wrong with Bull’s Charge?

Long cooldown
Slow obvious telegraph; painfully easy to dodge outside point-blank range
Buggy: Gets stuck on slopes, tiny rocks, even thin-air

In addition, you can miss on flat ground for no apparent reason, and will often shoot past your target even if you hit them, which can lead to follow up attacks missing.

NeXeD.3042:

BurrTheKing.8571:

There’s something up on the game’s side for sure. I’ve had games where everyone freezes up and after it ends basically everyone says something to the effect of “What just happened?”

I’ve also seen a lot of desync issues where I hit someone with Skull Crack, then a half second later they jump to where the server decides they actually are. Of course by then I missed my follow up attack.

i thought the when a player does something like that its usually them lagging, just make sure to at least talk to you ISP before you blame anet… im still without lag….

For the second one maybe. However, when the majority of a server all admits to freezing at the same time, that’s not my ISP.

What I don’t see posters here discussing is the effect these Power Rangers have on the legitimacy of GW2 PvP. If ANet is still serious about making this game a legitimate Esport, do you really want such a mechanically simple yet effective build being so popular?

I would imagine that you would want to encourage builds that are more difficult to play so that even non-players can be impressed (like with me and Starcraft) by what is happening. However, if they tune in and see a guy sitting a mile away doing nothing but pressing his 1 and 2 skills for long periods for time…not really exciting.

Honestly, I would rather see LB skill 2 be changed to something like GW1 Savage Shot or Distracting Shot. Skills like these require skill to be effective, and would even make builds using Moment of Clarity more appealing. You could do something really cool like have have the interrupt activate before the damage, so you get bonus damage for the interrupt via the skill and the trait.

There’s something up on the game’s side for sure. I’ve had games where everyone freezes up and after it ends basically everyone says something to the effect of “What just happened?”

I’ve also seen a lot of desync issues where I hit someone with Skull Crack, then a half second later they jump to where the server decides they actually are. Of course by then I missed my follow up attack.

They must not have been Skullcracker, because you would have been the one lying on the ground.

You can’t strip away mobility from a class that has so many melee weapons. Right now, there’s very few viable Warrior builds that don’t use a LB due to how much conditions can hamstring the class. What are you even taking mobility from? Greatsword? Mobility is the entire point of the weapon. Reduce it and suddenly the weapon is totally worthless. Of course, if Whirlwind attack kept the same number of hits with shorter range…I would probably be fine with that because I don’t mind being able to land 3-5k hits consistently.

Savage leap isn’t that crazy, it serves its purpose of getting you in close and applies a bit of cripple to that they stay there. Other than that, you have the unreliable and high CD Bull’s Charge, and the short leap on hammer. I don’t think Evis and Shield Bash count as mobility.

Traits like Warrior’s Sprint are also needed if you don’t want to force players into using one weapon. How else are you supposed to avoid being kited to death? Hell, even with a GS and WS you can be kited to death. In fact, while mainhand Mace isn’t bad it could do with some cripple to make it more functional. Not as much as sword mind you, but a few seconds on Pommel Bash (+ a bit more range) would be nice.

So, the other night I ended up in a team of 4 Engis and me as a Warrior, so of course I instantly swapped to my Engi as well. We ended up being a surprisingly potent combination of pure condi, celestial, and turrets. We crushed, it wasn’t even funny. After that game we all grouped up. This is where we became a bit naughty.

We decided it would be funny to all join as different classes, then swap about 30 seconds from the game start. What started as a joke became a ridiculously effective tactic. With minimum communication we won all but one game, and that loss we almost won but someone d/c’d. If we had joined as all Engis, players would have changed out to counter us. However, waiting till the last second to swap out didn’t allow for that.

This is a fairly complicated problem. If you lock players into their class/build once you accept the queue you might end up with 3 Mesmers and 2 Teefs or some other silly composition and not be able to fix that. On the other hand, you have the ability to do what I described above. I can’t really say our team comp was OP, just that if you suddenly find yourself up against 5 Engis and don’t have time to swap builds/classes you get a big advantage.

Lopez.7369:

Supreme.3164:

With the same reasoning, necro and Mesmer should have not access to energy sigil as they have no natural access to vigor, then air+fire sigil use mechanics coming from ele, so they should be removed too…

Not really. There’s a way to make some sigils supplemental instead of defining.

That’s what my main point has been. I’m sick of sigils being build defining instead of something that just supplements it.

While they were boarderline useless at launch, that was better than what we have now imo.

Brigg.6189:

best counter to this build, desync out of my kitten skullcrack

Oh that’s the worst, you go for the 100b only for them to reappear 6 ft away behind you.

As for playstyle, your role is to set up spikes, bait out stun breakers/stability, and also quickly roam from point to point. I try to use a 1 or 2 bar Skull Crack early on because it makes players panic and stun break when they don’t need to.