Guild Wars 2

Alehin.3746:

Whats the point on nerfing the cooldowns and then giving a cooldown reduction trait? lol

They felt it was too much at no cost. They nerfed it. With a trait, you’d get the old CDs at a cost.

I like the idea of adding that functionality Tempestuous Aria.

Daroon.1736:

A Man walks into a Bar ……..

I… I don’t. That’s awful.

Expected because I also kinda burn/freeze/electrocute/skewer/blow up most things as an elementalist (regarding asura, Inquest I assure you) but like…

I… it’s not my favorite part or anything… B.. bookah!

Don’t AFK farm with or without macros. It’s against the rules. You’ll be suspended for it and if you keep at it eventually you’ll get a ban.

It’s in the EULA.

Common sense dictates that between here and on reddit with the posts by folks crying out they were “banned” for AFK farming it’s… probably not a good idea.

Thinking isn’t that hard, really.

Sarrs.4831:

getting rid of them is for the best, they can just put it back in as a baseline or something

That’d be great! I vote for this option.

The best race… ~ dramatic pause ~

… is the one you choose.

~ Poetic wind ~

Harper.4173:

CETheLucid.3964:

Harper.6175:

When you compare an NPC that’s part of the story to the PC you display a lot of ignorance to the basic different roles the two play and both to their importance in the story.

And you do the same with Taimi as a character ignoring moments when she was in mortal danger and the fact she’s kinda out there in the jungle alone right now.

You disregard the times they try to make her character more believable with “she’s a child she has the plot armor” in the same way you might disregard the PCs own immunity in regards to the story.

You’re forgiving of that, but you don’t want to see where this goes because she’s a child with disabilities? I mean do you really think you have this all figured out?

Remind me not to watch a movie with you.

Those moments are there – and are a good indication of why she shouldn’t be in the front lines to begin with.
Secondly – I don’t understand what you mean by “this all figured out”.

You don’t have to like the character or the circumstances at present but the story is sound, and ongoing.

Her disabillity and age don’t make her a plot pariah. I think they’ve done a really good job with her character overall and the way they’ve handled her so far has been brilliant.

Harper.6175:

When you compare an NPC that’s part of the story to the PC you display a lot of ignorance to the basic different roles the two play and both to their importance in the story.

And you do the same with Taimi as a character ignoring moments when she was in mortal danger and the fact she’s kinda out there in the jungle alone right now.

You disregard the times they try to make her character more believable with “she’s a child she has the plot armor” in the same way you might disregard the PCs own immunity in regards to the story.

You’re forgiving of that, but you don’t want to see where this goes because she’s a child with disabilities? I mean do you really think you have this all figured out?

Remind me not to watch a movie with you.

Harper.6175:

CETheLucid.3964:

She didn’t get to the heart of the maguuma by herself. She was escorted there by tyria’s greatest heroes at present, including the PC.

Now that she’s there, she can reasonably hold her own between her golem and the reactivated Rata Novus defenses.

Though even with her golem, it’s a safe bet she wouldn’t have made it to Rata Novus without us. We’ve saved her life more than once.

If we were to keep her out there without her state-of-the-art cutting edge golem? That would be negligent homicide.

We should absolutely check in on her occasionally, but she’s far from helpless.

As for a lack of tension? All things said at the end of the day, she’s a young asura with special needs in the heart of the maguuma. Of course it’s incredibly dangerous.

All that comes with being a hero.

What our PC (and every major hero in the story) does is basically gamble with their lives and hope a combination of skill and luck works out in their favor.

Fighting elder dragons is dangerous business. Not big surprise. Taimi’s mature enough to make her own life choices and this is the path she’s pursuing.

She’s an asura. She’s perfectly aware of what she’s getting herself into. Probably has the exact statistics and all that.

The problem is she’s all that but she’s also an NPC that’s both a child and disabled. This pretty much guarantees that she won’t get killed – which makes the whole dynamic of threats boring.

How can I take “saving her” seriously when I absolutely know no harm would come to her because of the RL backlash against Anet if they killed her off.

By that logic our PC is incredibly boring because you absolutely know we’ll never really be killed off. Just won’t happen, you know?

Taimi is just as likely to be killed off as the rest of the cast. Certainly has a better chance of kicking the bucket than we do as the PC.

Taimi’s circumstances don’t exclude her from danger any more than the other heroes.

The story has already made a precedent of that more then once with her specific character no less.

You’d probably find it all more enjoyable if you didn’t go TVTropes meta with it.

It’s possible it could play out exactly as you’re saying it will or maybe something different will happen.

We don’t know where the story is going to go. Let it happen.

She didn’t get to the heart of the maguuma by herself. She was escorted there by tyria’s greatest heroes at present, including the PC.

Now that she’s there, she can reasonably hold her own between her golem and the reactivated Rata Novus defenses.

Though even with her golem, it’s a safe bet she wouldn’t have made it to Rata Novus without us. We’ve saved her life more than once.

If we were to keep her out there without her state-of-the-art cutting edge golem? That would be negligent homicide.

We should absolutely check in on her occasionally, but she’s far from helpless.

As for a lack of tension? All things said at the end of the day, she’s a young asura with special needs in the heart of the maguuma. Of course it’s incredibly dangerous.

All that comes with being a hero.

What our PC (and every major hero in the story) does is basically gamble with their lives and hope a combination of skill and luck works out in their favor.

Fighting elder dragons is dangerous business. Not big surprise. Taimi’s mature enough to make her own life choices and this is the path she’s pursuing.

She’s an asura. She’s perfectly aware of what she’s getting herself into. Probably has the exact statistics and all that.

Zenith.6403:

CETheLucid.3964:

That said to directly answer the OP, you’re probably better off buying them as sets VS one at a time.

No. Read my post. I want to swap all of the necessary items, not just one or two of them. These things are not divisible, like you can’t divide ownership of a cat by slicing the cat in half and giving the halves to different people.

I did.

And you can if you dedicate the entirety of the shared slots for that purpose between an alt with the same armor class.

If you mean like for 30 alts or something, sure, that’s not feasible.

If however you use a shared slot for something like a permanent bank access item, then you get closer to what it is you might be trying to do.

To be a free 700 gem gift to HoT players to otherwise house a free insta-80 thing to play around with on all your pre-80 alts till you find one you might fancy?

If nothing else, it’s an entire set of free exotic armor of your choice + jewels and various foods I think.

That said to directly answer the OP, you’re probably better off buying them as sets VS one at a time.

They have a better value that way. Unless you already have so many that you can only buy them in singles.

Then, well…

Ambient dialogue will get old if you’ve been with the game for ~3 years. Inevitable. It’s flavor for a living world. I’d rather it be there than not.

You can turn it off if it’s really weighing on you. It’s the dialogue bit in your sound options.

bearshaman.3421:

Puck.9612:

CETheLucid.3964:

bearshaman.3421:

cafard.8953:

bearshaman.3421:

Note: WvW I am not very familiar with. I would lump it in with PvP in terms of what skills it would get, since the same balance issues apply.

Not really no. Take the pet leash range nerf as a case in point. That was due to sPvP points being close to each other, and it killed a lot of the beastmaster fun in roaming.

If anything, WvW should be going back to the original vision: a glorious massive chaos where you get to play with all your imbalanced skills against plenty of other players.

So WvW could just use the PvE set of skills? I dunno, I won’t speak to that either way. Just know that PvE and PvP need to be split from each other.

I don’t agree. Not generally. Skill splitting should be a last resort and a temporary measure until a better solution/idea for the skill in terms of balance can come about.

S&R wasn’t so game breaking that it needed a split and in it’s current iteration, it’s garbage in all game modes.

It needed a nerf, CD wise. They went way too far with the range nerf on top of that though.

I have to disagree with you. Skills need to be balanced separately for each game mode or they end up being severely broken or subpar in certain modes.

Pretty much what he said. Only the most generic of skills and traits are useful in both. Most you can tell are tuned more for pve or pvp, or at least have their usefulness in that game mode. And I am speaking generally, not just with SnR.

Agreeing to disagree.

bearshaman.3421:

cafard.8953:

bearshaman.3421:

Note: WvW I am not very familiar with. I would lump it in with PvP in terms of what skills it would get, since the same balance issues apply.

Not really no. Take the pet leash range nerf as a case in point. That was due to sPvP points being close to each other, and it killed a lot of the beastmaster fun in roaming.

If anything, WvW should be going back to the original vision: a glorious massive chaos where you get to play with all your imbalanced skills against plenty of other players.

So WvW could just use the PvE set of skills? I dunno, I won’t speak to that either way. Just know that PvE and PvP need to be split from each other.

I don’t agree. Not generally. Skill splitting should be a last resort and a temporary measure until a better solution/idea for the skill in terms of balance can come about.

S&R wasn’t so game breaking that it needed a split and in it’s current iteration, it’s garbage in all game modes.

It needed a nerf, CD wise. They went way too far with the range nerf on top of that though.

I don’t understand why there would be a need to split the skill at all. It’s an easy fix across the board. Give it back 1200 range and make the CD appropriate for the utility.

Maybe 900 with a more forgiving CD as a compromise. Splitting the skill for the various game modes isn’t necessary in this situation IMO.

Aside from the Search & Rescue nerf being overdone, everything else was golden. It was a great balance run for rangers.

Thank you.

In the otherwise great buffs and all around goodies rangers got with this balance run, the S&R nerf was overkill.

The range shouldn’t have been changed at all IMO but if the range is going to be reduced so much, why on top of that, are you going to also nerf the CD?

600 range isn’t very forgiving. By comparison, a shortbow’s range is 900. 600 is (figuratively) nothing.

I’d propose giving the old range back and keeping the CD it has now. Maybe increase it ever so slightly if they feel it’s justified.

But not too much, lest the skill be fairly niche to unusable even then.

As it stands? The range itself is a deal killer. The CD ontop of that is just overkill. It’s pretty much returned to being useless.

Still? Everything else we got in this patch has been utterly fantastic.

I guess something had to give in exchange. Poor S&R. I’ll miss pulling peoples bacon out of the fire with my “useless” pet. ;(

TL;DR
Nah. Can’t work with it. RIP.

JustTrogdor.7892:

There was a recent article that showed every time someone starts another thread about SAB being permanent Anet is thinking about removing it permanently. Here is the link to the article.

http://bit.ly/IqT6zt

+1, great article.

mrstealth.6701:

CETheLucid.3964:

I mean, do all the years and hours you’ve enjoyed the game up until that theoretical point account for nothing?

Some emotional attachment one might have for the account VS some kind of financial return on your investment?

If it’s purely a money thing, something or nothing is still an easy choice to make and were I to feel so strongly about the issue as some seem too, it makes a point to the company.

How long something has been owned and someone feeling that they had “gotten their money’s worth out of it” don’t really matter. It is paid for, owned, and should not have to be given up. Especially not when the item at issue is only a smaller, separately sold, portion of that whole.

The problem isn’t with the customer not wanting to make some self-damaging noble sacrifice to prove a point to the company, it’s with the company failing to offer a reasonable option for compensation.

I don’t find any of this particularly noble.

It certainly isn’t self-damaging to the vast majority of people who have been with the game pre-HoT and invested hundreds or thousands of hours into the game.

$50 well spent.

If one is so very bitter and hung up over the recent decision to put a hold on new legendary weapons for the sake of the game as a whole, you can ultimately end your customer relationship with Anet and pocket the $$$ spent on HoT.

I don’t feel that way myself. I’m willing to see where this goes. Bitter and empty the words of some of the more excitable lot here, most of them are not going to get a refund.

They’re going to wait and see what happens. I think that’s the best course. You don’t have to agree with me to be counted with me in that regard.

mrstealth.6701:

CETheLucid.3964:

mrstealth.6701:

If you bought an upgraded component for your computer, and ended up being unsatisfied with some aspect of it, would you then want to return the entire PC? If your only recourse was to accept a refund for only the upgraded component, but in turn had to send back the entire computer, you would actually do this?

If it’s bad enough, yes.

If that was my only recourse and I’m feeling utterly betrayed by the retailer and the only way I can get out of this fiasco is to get a refund and start anew far away from these folks, then that’s how it has to be.

Really? I find that quite hard to believe.

Giving up a complete product, that you are otherwise satisfied with, to get a refund of only a small portion of that value because the seller is unwilling to view the upgrade as the separate item it was sold as. I think it’s safe to say that you belong to a small minority of people willing to inflict such damage onto themselves to make a point. I’m sure that company would be “laughing all the way to bank” as it were, with you having just thoroughly screwed yourself over.

In the case of a game account, Anet wouldn’t be getting anything back as with a physical product, but the damage to the customer is still much greater than the refund the company paid back.

I mean, do all the years and hours you’ve enjoyed the game up until that theoretical point account for nothing?

Some emotional attachment one might have for the account VS some kind of financial return on your investment?

If it’s purely a money thing, something or nothing is still an easy choice to make and were I to feel so strongly about the issue as some seem too, it makes a point to the company.

But if you’re playing semantics with your example with regards to PC parts then yes, in that particular scenario I would be screwing myself over.

I figured you were just trying to make a point and the analogy was poorly thought out. I’ve done that myself, so it’s not a big deal.

Tachenon.5270:

CETheLucid.3964:

I don’t know how they’d go about doing that, but here’s hoping for you.

Nay, hope not for me. Hope instead for everyone who bought HoT and wound up paying for anet’s mistake.

Okay.

Spira.4578:

And that’s why the part of the community that is being rational doesn’t take you seriously.

You care enough to respond to some of my casual morning thoughts apparently.

For someone who doesn’t care about an opinion that is by nature a fleeting wind, that’s quite generous of you.

Or did you mean the almighty “community” that you speak for?

Because if you suppose you speak for the entire community of rational people, that’s pretty comical given your commentary.

I would request another representative.

Spira.4578:

No, but some simply understand the importance of money.

Yeah, if it was about money you’d probably want to get at least a partial return on your investment VS zero.

But we know it’s not about money for you. You admit as much.

The fact is at the end of the day unless you’re going to follow up on your internet tough guy act, you and I are in the same camp. You’re mad about it. I am not.

Spira.4578:

Blah blah blah ur a white knight/LOLILLPUTFANSOIMNOTASINSULTINGHUEHUEHUE

OK.

Spira.4578:

This is no way a valid argument. What you are implying is that if you don’t buy something exclusively for 1 of its attributes, you can’t complain if that attribute is never applied to the object. While it might not have been exclusive, it might have been at equaly heavy reason as some other promoted feature.

I’m not implying that, I can see the reasoning behind what you’re saying in this regard.

We do disagree on how important to the game said attribute is VS why it was put on hold for the sake of the game as a whole.

I also don’t understand some of the impassioned vitriol in all of this, like they took your firstborn, but I can accept that it’s a legitimate issue for some.

Spira.4578:

This statement is also completelly irrelevant, as we’re not demanding a full refund in the first place.

Well, great. Glad you’re staying with us. Guess you’re in my camp then. Let’s see what happens together, hm?

You can pick up your white armor at the desk.

Spira.4578:

Speaking of madmen who repeat themselves… yeah buddy. lol

We’ve long established Anet goofed in making a promise they couldn’t keep. I’ve never argued against that. No one on either side of the argument can contest that.

It’s a legitimate criticism. They owned up to it.

They’ve communicated why they’re putting newer legendary weapons on hold with the release of the new legendary shortbow, and what we can expect as a result.

It sounds reasonable. I’ve always considered legendary weapons are for a very niche audience out there.

I can honestly say I have never run into someone in-game or personally among my guilds who’s told me they bought HoT just for new legendary weapons.

A nice bonus for some, but it certainly wasn’t the prime motivating factor. That’s a new phenomenon I’ve experienced with this thread.

And you know? You’re entitled to feel that way. Strange as it seems to me it’s not my place to tell people how to enjoy their game.

(Although I’m pretty sure some here were just looking for something to burn them for and don’t honestly care about the issue)

They had to make a choice. I’m sorry for your loss in this. I’m of those who are willing to see where it goes.

If this issue is utterly insurmountable to you, you have a recourse you can take to get at least some of your money invested back and end the customer relationship with Anet.

Do as you feel necessary.

Obtena.7952:

Ticky.5831:

Obtena.7952:

That’s a really interesting point. So are you saying that some players posting here have demonstrated that the decision isn’t a good one because there might be some data Anet doesn’t have that would possibly change their decision and it comes from the very players that are arguing to keep Legendary development? I would love to see what this data is! I’m all for getting more Legendary weapons if Anet is so incompetent that average players have some data they have missed that is so pivotal to their decision.

The data is people that are voicing that they aren’t going to spend money on the game because of the decision.

So you’re saying … that Anet didn’t know or consider that this would make people upset and those people might stop spending money on the game, so it’s a bad decision to stop Legendary development? See, I think you’re wrong about that. I know Anet understands people would not like this decision. The first post from MO tells me so.

Ticky.5831:

Well, clearly, the people you are arguing against really don’t care what you think, and they have no reason to give Anet the benefit of the doubt.

Heads up.

This is where they’re going to call you a troll and use that as an excuse to dismiss anything you have to say without actually offering anything reasonable to what you’ve said.

“No one cares about what you think”
“No one here has a reason to give Anet the benefit of the doubt”

A lot of people here talk like this issue is some absolute for them that they can’t possibly forgive.

But most won’t actually take the steps to show that displeasure in ending the customer relationship.

Guy earlier said they’d suffer through this VS longsuffering friends or loved ones. It’s so painfully easy to see the duality going on here with most posters.

But rest assured we’re the white knights, trolls, and whatever other BS that they offer VS actual discussion.

Read the the writing on the wall friend. It’s a we-hate-Anet circlejerk going on here and thoughts or opinions contrary to the hoard are unacceptable.

If I were MO I wouldn’t respond either. What the hell could you possibly say to some of these people? lol

Ticky.5831:

What is your endgame here?

What is your endgame here?

What is your endgame here?

That question was not rhetorical.

Same as yours I’d wager. Discussion. Sharing of thoughts and opinions with regards to the subject at hand. Forum stuff. I mean unless it’s not for you?

That would beg the question, what is yours?

Celtic Lady.3729:

It really isn’t for you to say how much value is appropriate for players to place on their accounts.

Well, that’s my opinion on that mater. That’s how I feel about it. You’re free to disagree. I figured we’ve established that by now?

Celtic Lady.3729:

Most people value things they’ve spent money on and significant time on. This isn’t unusual or inappropriate.

To such a degree as to be willing to suffer under people they find treacherous and dishonest?

Where do you draw the line?

I mean someone who’s going to put up with that kind of dichotomy must really love this game.

Like… to a disturbing degree. That, or their words here don’t line up with their actual feelings on the issue.

Gene Archer.8560:

CETheLucid.3964:

Yeah, I’m a real monster I am. No empathy at all.

Except the way you phrase things and the things you have said aside of those quotes show that your…“empathy” is more in the line of “apathy”. You don’t care and a lot of your comments show that, because they come off as uncaring.

You can say “sorry for your loss” all you want. The rest of your posts show that you don’t actually mean that, or if you do, you mean it in a very limp manner where, again, you don’t care.

You also keep making snide remarks about the “more passionate people” as you call them.

But yeah, you’re totally over brimming with empathy. You’re such a caring fellow.

I’ll be sure to send my papers to the enthusiasm police for your sake.

But did you actually have anything to say that isn’t an attempt to dehumanize me to discredit what I might have to say?

Or do we just strongly disagree with one and other and you just had to get that out there? Because I read you, loud and clear buddy.

Thanks for the feedback.

Gene Archer.8560:

CETheLucid.3964:

I can understand why someone might value their account. I can empathize with that.

Your posts thus far demonstrate otherwise, and continue to do so.

CETheLucid.3964:

College kids puffing their chests out, with powerful, impassioned language of the do or die variety, determined to act on some greater value…

You know, as long as it isn’t inconvenient to do so.

You keep missing the point that it shouldn’t be inconvenient for the customers in this situation. Or if you’re not missing that point, you keep ignoring it.

As I said. You are clearly incapable of understanding. You don’t care about the current situation. You have said as such.

I can only say that I look forward to the day they hit something you do truly care about. Because maybe on that day you’ll be able to understand.

~

CETheLucid.3964:

I find the community response to this a wee bit over the top though.

It’s not for nothing and they’ve explained they’re trying to get resources into more vital areas of the game VS legendary weps.

That’s not an unreasonable trade off for most people. But I mean if you’re hardcore into legendary weps, I’m sorry for your loss.

CETheLucid.3964:

They just aren’t that big a deal to me. But if I’m in the minority with that, excuse my plebe opinions and continue in your completely justified anger.

CETheLucid.3964:

Legendary weapons aren’t that big a deal to me. But I can better understand your feelings if they were very important to you.

You should do what you feel is right.

Yeah, I’m a real monster I am. No empathy at all.

Ashen.2907:

CETheLucid.3964:

Ashen.2907:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

If you feel strongly enough to request a refund for the sake of HoT legendary weps but loves you that core GW2, make a free account after the fact?

/shrug

Because he doesn’t want to lose his characters, the gem store items he’s bought for them, etc, etc? Those would be good reasons not to want to start over with a free account.

Putting myself in the position of the wronged and betrayed, I’m still not getting.

On one hand, I show the company my displeasure by requesting a refund on HoT for legendary weapons being less than advertised on the principles of getting what I paid for.

A legit “This was false advertising and I won’t accept MO’s platitudes!” kinda guy.

On the other hand, I don’t request a refund because I like all the virtual stuff and goodies the account has that is run by the very same people I feel are treacherous and dishonest.

If I put myself in the “I’m waiting for them to say something or right this perceived wrong” camp, I guess I can understand waiting at this point.

But if you have strong feelings in this situation and you still elect to suffer through what you believe are treacherous and dishonest people?

For the sake of virtual goods you have no quarter over? Ultimately controlled by the very same people you believe are treacherous and dishonest?

You may have a problem. And I wish you the best in sorting out that dichotomy.

Desiring a refund for a product that fails to meet consumer expectations by not delivering advertised features has little (or no) bearing on a willingness to lose a previously paid for product, without refund, that did meet the consumer’s epectations.

If I purchase a computer from a company and it delivers on advertised features. I am satisfied. If a year later I purchase a RAM upgrade listed at 8gb, but what is provided is only 4gb I might very well want my money back for the upgrade without losing the entire computer.

That’s a legit complaint. But from the look of it, they can’t give you a refund on HoT without shutting down your whole account.

If your values are immutable, you’ve lost all hope in Anet… that’s an option. If you’re not quite as passionate about it or you’re willing to see what happens, wait it out.

That’s the situation.

They can give a refund of the HoT purchase price without shutting down an entire account. Sending money via a credit network, or even mailing a check, does not require even touching an account. What they might not be able to do is remove access to HoT post link to core account without closing the core account. The burden for the lack of foresight to include that functionality lies with the merchant, not the consumer.

A desire for a refund of purchase price for a product that fails to meet consumer expectations by not delivering on advertised features, while desiring to keep a paid for product which did, is not necessarily a matter of passion, hope, etc. Its simple economics and being a responsible consumer. If product A meets your expectations buy it, enjoy it, keep it. If seperate product B does not include advertised features get your money back. If said features are delayed, and the time period of the delay seems reasonable to you, then you might choose to wait. That decision should be the consumer’s to make without the specter of the loss of his entire account forcing his hand.

It seems, to me, that a complete lack of a time frame for delivery of the lacking, or underdelivered, advertised features makes making an informed decision regarding whether or not to wait difficult, if not impossible, so a refund now, and possibly a repurchase later when the adverised features are in place, could be a perfectly reaonable course of action for some customers.

Well, here’s hoping for you. But where we’re at now is where we are.

Ashen.2907:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

If you feel strongly enough to request a refund for the sake of HoT legendary weps but loves you that core GW2, make a free account after the fact?

/shrug

Because he doesn’t want to lose his characters, the gem store items he’s bought for them, etc, etc? Those would be good reasons not to want to start over with a free account.

Putting myself in the position of the wronged and betrayed, I’m still not getting.

On one hand, I show the company my displeasure by requesting a refund on HoT for legendary weapons being less than advertised on the principles of getting what I paid for.

A legit “This was false advertising and I won’t accept MO’s platitudes!” kinda guy.

On the other hand, I don’t request a refund because I like all the virtual stuff and goodies the account has that is run by the very same people I feel are treacherous and dishonest.

If I put myself in the “I’m waiting for them to say something or right this perceived wrong” camp, I guess I can understand waiting at this point.

But if you have strong feelings in this situation and you still elect to suffer through what you believe are treacherous and dishonest people?

For the sake of virtual goods you have no quarter over? Ultimately controlled by the very same people you believe are treacherous and dishonest?

You may have a problem. And I wish you the best in sorting out that dichotomy.

Desiring a refund for a product that fails to meet consumer expectations by not delivering advertised features has little (or no) bearing on a willingness to lose a previously paid for product, without refund, that did meet the consumer’s epectations.

If I purchase a computer from a company and it delivers on advertised features. I am satisfied. If a year later I purchase a RAM upgrade listed at 8gb, but what is provided is only 4gb I might very well want my money back for the upgrade without losing the entire computer.

That’s a legit complaint. But from the look of it, they can’t give you a refund on HoT without shutting down your whole account.

If your values are immutable, you’ve lost all hope in Anet… that’s an option. If you’re not quite as passionate about it or you’re willing to see what happens, wait it out.

That’s the situation.

Gene Archer.8560:

CETheLucid.3964:

Then the player doesn’t feel as strongly about the subject as the bluster might indicate.

No, rather it’s the fact that ANet should be offering refunds without any strings attached.

People shouldn’t have to get their accounts closed in order to get a refund on something they paid for that is no longer being delivered.

What do you not get about this?

CETheLucid.3964:

Putting myself in the position of the wronged and betrayed, I’m still not getting.

Then you are simply incapable of empathy/sympathy or understanding and it would be better for you to just stop posting in this thread, because in no way are you helping the situation.

If you don’t understand at this point, you will most likely never understand.

I can understand why someone might value their account. I can empathize with that.

That said I think a lot of the more… passionate… people here put far too much value on their accounts.

At least it certainly doesn’t match their vitriol on the subject at hand. But I can understand that too.

College kids puffing their chests out, with powerful, impassioned language of the do or die variety, determined to act on some greater value…

You know, as long as it isn’t inconvenient to do so.

Swooooooooordssssssss. Gib. Want sword. Give me the sword. Want to use a sword. Slash slash slash stab BOOOOM. That was an explosion.

Because I’m an elementalist. I make things explode. With fire. And now with swords. Swords AND fire. Burning and hurting.

And water. Healing and stabbing. Freezing and hacking things. And lightning bolts. So much zappity zap zap. Huge spike damage.

Who’s that coming? It’s a gods forsaken OP ele with a freaking sword. Better Alt+F4 to be safe.

And earth. Swords and earth. Bleeding + more bleeding. Lots of blood. Or that’s what I would say… if I could use a sword as an elementalist.

I want to use the sword.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

You were saying that we should get a refund and get our accounts closed if we decided that we were wronged and betrayed. That’s an overwrought, emotional response more appropriate to lovers or friends breaking up, not a business dispute.

I dunno. I’m much more willing to longsuffer my friends or loved ones than I am to deal with a business entity that I feel is treacherous and dishonest.

As it stands, Anet has been nothing but kind to those I know and has done nothing yet to wrong me personally.

Their work has been solid thus far.

Legendary weps just aren’t that big a deal to me and I can suffer them being put on hold for the sake of the game as a whole.

I’m willing to give MO the benefit here and see what happens.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

And the other part was noting that you don’t need to have financial interactions to play, therefore whether or not you trust them financially doesn’t matter.

You do have to buy the game. That’s a financial investment.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

At any rate, as Celtic Lady has said. We’re not on the same page so let’s leave it at that.

OK.

Ragnarox.9601:

If they want to close my account (ban) they need to pay me 45€ for HoT and 60€ for base game. Thats 105 €, and I will gladly accept that.

That’s a path you can pursue if you so choose. Best of luck with that.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I’m displeased.

I’m not having the overwrought emotional, hissy fit that you’re portraying us as having. This isn’t some soap opera that we’re in. Just a business dispute.

What did I say that portrayed you or anyone else as having an emotional hissy fit?

Moreover I’m trying to understand people’s thought process in all of this, in the interests of being fair with my commentary.

And it’s pretty hard. People are weird.

I mean people do seem rather salty about the issue overall, but if that’s the extent of your accusation there, I dunno what to say.

Casual observation I guess?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

In addition, you’ve seem to have forgotten that players can play for free once they’ve bought the game. No further financial interactions needed if they don’t want to.

Did I dispute that at some point?

Celtic Lady.3729:

Let’s see…treacherous…suffer…what are you doing? Writing a soap opera? lol

Aren’t you the same one who thinks I’m drunk and can’t communicate with people ever because I used a bad analogy? lol

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

If you feel strongly enough to request a refund for the sake of HoT legendary weps but loves you that core GW2, make a free account after the fact?

/shrug

Because he doesn’t want to lose his characters, the gem store items he’s bought for them, etc, etc? Those would be good reasons not to want to start over with a free account.

Putting myself in the position of the wronged and betrayed, I’m still not getting.

On one hand, I show the company my displeasure by requesting a refund on HoT for legendary weapons being less than advertised on the principles of getting what I paid for.

A legit “This was false advertising and I won’t accept MO’s platitudes!” kinda guy.

On the other hand, I don’t request a refund because I like all the virtual stuff and goodies the account has that is run by the very same people I feel are treacherous and dishonest.

If I put myself in the “I’m waiting for them to say something or right this perceived wrong” camp, I guess I can understand waiting at this point.

But if you have strong feelings in this situation and you still elect to suffer through what you believe are treacherous and dishonest people?

For the sake of virtual goods you have no quarter over? Ultimately controlled by the very same people you believe are treacherous and dishonest?

You may have a problem. And I wish you the best in sorting out that dichotomy.

ODB.6891:

The reason why account closure is a terrible option is because vets also paid for core gw2. How is it a fair recourse to permanently take our paid previous purchase…just because they cheated us on a second purchase? What about the scenario where we do like that content they actually did deliver on…but they owe us a refund for the parts that refuse to deliver? Why does that justify account closure at all? That’s just spiteful and petty. The facts of this matter are that the only party in the wrong here is ANET…they falsely advertised their product to get our money. The customer is 100% in the right in this situation and deserves no penalty at all. There should be two options made easily available by ANET:

1. Full refund for HoT, without any account closure…but with full removal of any HoT features.
2. Partial refund for HoT, without any account closure….with delivered features intact.

Those are fair options for recourse. Of course, they also have the option to solve this whole issue by actually being a responsible and ethical company…and providing exactly what was advertised, sold, and paid for.

Because it’s just not possible to do or I’d assume they’d allow it.

If you feel strongly enough to request a refund for the sake of HoT legendary weps but loves you that core GW2, make a free account after the fact?

Personally I have a hard time imagining someone who felt so cheated and betrayed by the company to seek recourse in a refund would even want to come back in any capacity…

But I’ve been given some funny answers to what I thought were pretty simple situations before.

So, I mean… you could do that if you wanted?
/shrug

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The more concrete return is account closure? Gee thanks, you’re a right pal.

I don’t understand why this is such a concern if you feel you can’t trust the people you’re doing business with.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If a company doesn’t do right by me, I have the right to withhold money and the right to say what I think the next time it tries to sell us stuff.

By all means.

minbariguy.7504:

That statement works great, since you added the word “irreparably”. However, I don’t recall anyone asking how they can get recourse after being “irreparably” betrayed, do you?

Thing is, no one will know how “irreparable” the situation is until Anet actually makes a good faith effort to repair it. Which they seem to be spending exactly zero effort doing.

Well, I’m glad to hear you’re not done just yet then? Here’s hoping for you.

Celtic Lady.3729:

This doesn’t even make sense. There is no logic to the idea that we as players don’t feel strongly about their decision unless we’re willing to permanently trash our accounts.

lol whut?

If we wanted to just walk away from the game, we wouldn’t bother to express our desire to see them keep their word and give us what we paid for. You’re just not making sense here.

OK.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

/shrug

If they don’t reverse it, I’ll get my own “refund”

I’ve been buying gems on a close to monthly basis with real money and I’ll decide how much of a “refund” that’s due me. Then I’ll stop buying gems with money till I get my money back. With that, I’ll have my “refund” and my account too. After that, I’ll be very careful about my purchases from ANet and next expansion, when they come around hyping it up, I won’t be holding back on any scepticism when they say “pay now and we’ll provide this later.” I’ll be one of those pointing out the hazards of “paying now to get later.”

And then I’ll consider us even.

That’s the most wishy-washy, passive aggressive recourse I’ve read considering you can get a much more concrete return.

But if it makes you feel better, who am I to judge? Have fun.

minbariguy.7504:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

So you’re saying that an acceptable recourse that would make things right for the customer and generate goodwill and return business involves permanently closing the customer’s account?

I’m detecting a slight note of insincerity here.

If I put myself in the position that I feel Anet has irreparably betrayed me, why the hell would I care about goodwill or return business?

Close my account, give me my money, good-bye. All there is to it for me as a consumer.

What Anet should do to build goodwill in this situation that they’re in is do their best to explain why they had to put legendary weps on hold and hope the community can—lol that didn’t work.

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

It’s already been stated by Anet that if you want a refund or partial refund for HoT, they’ll close your account. If a player doesn’t want the account closed, they’re not going to try to get a refund.

Then the player doesn’t feel as strongly about the subject as the bluster might indicate.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I see you still fail to understand.

The answer to that question is no. I think they made a mistake in judgement.

I must say though, it’s interesting as well as informative to speak to someone who doesn’t understand that taking someone’s money and then telling them that part of what they bought is no longer being made and that there is no timeline on restarting production is ok, or that it’s ok because it’s a benefit to them to do so.

You’re taking a little liberty there in thinking there is no trade off for the exchange of putting legendary weps on hold, don’t you think?

You know considering MO explains why. But your opinion is noted. And we differ.

Anet hasn’t given me a reason to distrust them just yet and I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with this decision.

Legendary weapons aren’t that big a deal to me. But I can better understand your feelings if they were very important to you.

You should do what you feel is right.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Besides, you can’t get “recourse” as you call it if you want to keep your account, so that’s not an option for everyone.

Sure you can. What does it matter if you feel you can’t trust them and you’ve been cheated? Just take your business elsewhere.

If you can’t accept what they’re trying to do and you feel irreversibly wronged, why continue with them?

minbariguy.7504:

CETheLucid.3964:

OK. They’re not denying anyone recourse. If you feel that strongly about it, you can pursue it.

An ethical company wouldn’t make you pursue recourse; if they knew they had failed to deliver on their end, they would take the initiative on their own to make things right for their customer in order to generate goodwill and return business.

Mike O Brien.4613:

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

As game director I have to make tough trade-offs. One thing I believe is that we have to focus on the core game first before taking on additional responsibilities. I wrote in the Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto in 2010 that our vision was to create a living, dynamic world, where there’s always something to do. Let’s ensure we succeed on that front.

So, after shipping Chuka and Champawat, I’ve asked that we indefinitely suspend work on new legendary weapons. This team of developers will instead shift their efforts back to Living World style content, building new journeys and events for everyone to participate in.

I know this will be a controversial decision. I’ll hang out with you here on the forums for a little while today to discuss it. And I’m always available by email.

Mo

Just a flesh wound.3589:

if it’s my money and if I pay for something and company doesn’t deliver a product because it’s to their benefit not to do so, then maybe I won’t get a refund if the barriers to getting a refund are to high (account closure for example). But that doesn’t mean I feel that the company had the right to take my money and not deliver, just in order to benefit itself.

You’re arguing that because it’s a benefit to the game, it’s ok. I don’t feel the same since a company in “real life” can’t refuse to provide something paid for with the argument it’s a benefit to them not to do so.

It’s… not though? I mean can you come up with some benefit to ticking off your user base? Do you think they intentionally went out of their way to tick everyone off?

“Hey Mike, wanna have a laugh? Put legendary weps on hold!”

Celtic Lady.3729:

Things changing BEFORE money has been paid and taken = okay
Things changing AFTER money has been paid and taken for it = not okay.

Change itself really isn’t the problem here.

OK. They’re not denying anyone recourse. If you feel that strongly about it, you can pursue it.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

It’s not so much about whether or not someone wants those Legendaries. It’s that it’s part of the purchase that people spent up to $100 dollars to buy. Now, after people put down their money, ANet said the part of what was purchased has been put on hold for an undetermined amount of time.

Let’s say you bought something from a shop in “real life” and part of the purchase was to be delivered later. After you bought it the company said they’re not making that item any more, they don’t know when they’ll make that item, and you are not going to get a refund. Now do you see what the fuss is about?

If I wanted a refund from Anet, I could get it one way or another. Chargebacks are a thing. Legendary’s being put on hold aren’t taking me to the point of wanting a refund.

If others feel differently by all means. I’d try to be a decent person and contact support first, but that’s me.

They’ve helped folks out with things like that in the past and as passionate as some people here seem to be about it, I’m sure they could work something out.

It’s not just that, this sort of thing ripples down if not reversed. The next expansion they sell, this is going to be brought up over and over and over. If people know that ANet can take their money and then refuse to provide all that was paid for, then people are going to hesitate to prebuy or buy it. This could reasonably be expected to hurt sales of future expansions if people do not feel that the company is trustworthy and that items bought will be delivered.

That’s a legitimate concern.

Shall they be candid and transparent about these things given the response here? People want it both ways.

“Anet needs to be less vague and should make concrete promises, but we reserve the right to crucify them at any time for any deviation real or perceived to said promises!

And to hell if it’s necessary or in the best interests of the game!"

Realistically, you can make very few promises in game development about anything. Things change.

That said it is a fair criticism about the number of legendary weps as that is what they advertised on shipping and it won’t be arriving as planned.

There’s a well intentioned reason for this as per the OP, but it’s well established by now the community don’t give any kittens.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Celtic Lady.3729:

CETheLucid.3964:

But you know? You are right about the legendary weapons. Indeed, they broke their word on being able to offer 16 new legendary weapons.

You know, kind of the same way a parent may break their promise in getting their kid the number of clementines they requested.

“Sorry sweety, you asked for 16 but I could only get you 4, I’m thinking we need to invest in more foodstap—”
“THEN I WILL BURN DOWN OUR HOME AND CURSE YOUR EXISTENCE”

It’s not a good analogy. A parent/child relationship is not even remotely similar to a business/consumer relationship.

Comparing apples and oranges here.

Yes, literally.

But if the best you have for me is to tell me my analogy sucks, we agree. My analogy sucks. I’m trying to convey a point, not be Shakespeare.

It’s not so much about whether or not someone wants those Legendaries. It’s that it’s part of the purchase that people spent up to $100 dollars to buy. Now, after people put down their money, ANet said the part of what was purchased has been put on hold for an undetermined amount of time.

Let’s say you bought something from a shop in “real life” and part of the purchase was to be delivered later. After you bought it the company said they’re not making that item any more, they don’t know when they’ll make that item, and you are not going to get a refund. Now do you see what the fuss is about?

If I wanted a refund from Anet, I could get it one way or another. Chargebacks are a thing. Legendary’s being put on hold aren’t taking me to the point of wanting a refund.

If others feel differently by all means. I’d try to be a decent person and contact support first, but that’s me.

They’ve helped folks out with things like that in the past and as passionate as some people here seem to be about it, I’m sure they could work something out.

Celtic Lady.3729:

The point is, your analogy does not, in fact, actually make any kind of a logical point. It’s not a matter of eloquence. It’s a matter of logic and the ability to actually communicate.

OK.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Changing what you say to a child about what you will buy is not the same as a customer buying a product and after paying for it, the company says it’s not going to deliver the product to you for an unknown amount of time.

How is that any different thematically? Will buy VS will do someday?