(edited by Casia.4281)
reflect/knockback. fire field.
I still do not understand why people are so negative about tool kit dps. It is a little bit low compared to grenade and bomb, that’s true, but it is a great kit.
With the pull changes and the buff to gear shield it is now a great tool for countering thieves / kiters.
If you play smart you can use net shot / throw wrench to bait dodges at range, and then swap / pull them in for a pry bar 1-2 hits, before swapping back to rifle for blunderbuss / net shot.
If you pair it with elixir U you can get super fast magnets that are hard to spot / dodge, that lead into a fast 3 hit + pry bar.
You can also run the quickness sigil for this. Use rifle to proc the sigil then do a quick pull / burst.
Because it is a mishmash of Condition and Power Damage. Auto attack scales on power only, while the other damaging abilities (2 and 3) scale on condition damage.
In addition the 1 second swing on Thack makes it nearly useless in PvP.So what cripples the damage of toolkit is poor design, and poor design frustrates a good engineer.
eeeh..what?
1 is: power, .8,.8,1.75
2 is: cc, who cares about the bleed.
3 is: 2p coeff on direct, and 3 stacks of confuse. so very high power scaling, and very good cond as well.
4 and 5 dont deal damage.
toolbelt is: .75p x2.
So uh. 3 power moves. 1 is 50/50 power/cond. Pretty clearly power focused.
1 is aoe aoe, single target. yeah thats lame. should be all aoe. Most melee moves in the game are aoe. the attack speed is disengenous. .8s,.8s,1s. The bar makes it look like its much longer, and the poorly labeled recast timer. its not .5s, .5s, 1s. its .8,.8,1
3 is single target. again, should be aoe.
Most other melee skills have a mega aoe hit that roots you in place. tools doesnt.
Problems. No stun/root. Have to rely on a utility for this.
30 in tools. 10% damage with full end. wth? if you are in melee, you are going to be dodging alot. Swap with empowered adren? Explosives should have 5% damage when your end is full, and tool should have +10% when its NOT.
People think its tied to turrets due to the heal.
Rifle, pistol, ft, bombs, etc. its all melee. without the “actually” being melee of wrench as well.
(edited by Casia.4281)
yes. the number is showing you the total damage you have done over the coarse of the move.
So,
100+157+100+157+100+100, etc if you crit with 7% crit damage stat. (base is 50, so 50+7)
What will be displayed is 100, 257, 357, 514, 614, 714, etc.
“aggregate”
Most channeled abilities will list the total damage done over the duration.
“The numbers I see over the target’s head, start around 100, and by the time the attack flame jet is done, its around 1000.”
10 hits of 100=1000.
100,200,300,400, etc.
or 100+100+100, etc.
There is also an amazing oil that gives 6% of toughness as power, and 4% of vit as power.
I’m terrible at reading spreadsheets. But yeah, your numbers seem to be off by 300%?
872-969*skill*p/2600=damage.
My EG 1 at .4, using 872-969(920ave)weapon, and naked for 916 power
would be 872-969*.4*916/2600= 123-136.5 Listing a 129.7 average.
I just checked. yeap. my tooltip reads 130.
And checked, EG2. lists 244, and I get 243 expected. at .75 coeff. So, my min might be off by a point or two. or golems are not 2600 exactly. hard to really know for sure.
Note, turrets do miss their tooltips by 1 or 2. So it could be golems are 2607 or something.
(edited by Casia.4281)
Well, again. If you have the inventory space/bank space. Get multiple sets.
I have a prec/tough/cond karma set. First one I bought, before I did the math, and swapped to zerkers.
My zerkers is half crafted, half CoF.
Have a shamans set as well, prec/tough/healing, iirc. Not very effective. wanted it for EG. clerics will probably be better. Or mix/match.
Will build a power/tough/vit set next. have 300k karma. waiting for ascended first. to make sure.
Kindof the same, have 2k+ badges from wvw.
No reason to not mix and match either.
Runes have set bonuses, Armor does not.
head/chest power/tough/vit, rest zerkers if you want.
Zerkers without a doubt. Damage simply scales much better then any other stat.
Ruby exquisite jewels are also mathematically superior to any other option. place them in your trinkets, with no exceptions. (They seriously, need a nerf, or everything else buffed.)
However, Gearing up on a budget.
Lets say you JUST hit level 80. what to get?
Well, you probably can’t afford the 20-35g for a full set of zerkers off the AH right?
But you can buy a level 80 rare(yellow) set for like 2g, or 40s each.
Explorers. power/prec/Mf damage and better drops while farming for your full exotic set. This should be your first step, likely.
CoF has a power/prec/crit damage set. Doing some dungeon runs will let you get some pieces. And cash to buy more.
Karma. you probably have alot of karma and nothing to buy with it.
Orr has 2 sets of exotics that you can buy 42k karma for each peice. prec/tough/cond, and power/tough/vit. Neither is an IDEAL offense set. but, you have nothing else to get with karma, and a full exotic power/tough/vit is better then 76 greens.
May just want a tank set for whatever too.
Getting orr power/tough/vit, and then buying ruby ori of the zerker rings, amu, earrings first would be very good progression path. Then doing dungeons, and buying a set of zerkers.
Hrm. + 5% to all weapon kits increases coeffs to even values.
g1+ 5% .5, g2+ 5%, .55
wrench1+ 5%=.8, etc
Gadgets however, still odd values. Might be more to gadgets. Will need to test them, my guess that they use weapon kit damage value is probably wrong.
(edited by Casia.4281)
oh?, builder I use when I don’t feel like logging in to check things is usually pretty accurate, and up to date.
Why would you assume the tool tip is listing average? Each weapon as a range of damage on it.
It is much more likely that this is were weapons skills damage variation comes from.
Not sure what you are saying. the original mistake was. Char sheet listed max damage only. Skills list one damage value only, not the range. I and apparently no one else, notice that despite using the “max” damage as the basis, we were hitting heavy golems for more damage then the tooltip said we would.
Conversely. turrets, which do not have min-max ranges, hit the heavy golems for exactly what they say they should.
The math worked in predicting what power and weapon damage levels, would give us the properly tooltip display. But it is technically incorrect.
Its the difference between. a coeff of 1, and a weapon damage of 1300, and a coeff of 1.3 and weapon damage of 1000. both=1300.
so now for toolkits.
969 is the max damage then. Tooltip is displaying the average.
Hrm. yeap.
Using my EG numbers.
129-143 with 961 power vs 2600 heavy golem.
.38 coeff gave me errors. but using SentinelArks values, which are clearly all whole numbers.
.4 coeff. 143/.4/.3696= 967 max damage. (decimals making up that 2 variance. could be 143.1 or something)
129= 872.5 min damage.
Toolkits/gadgest are 872-969 very likely then.
indeed, if the tooltip is listing average, as I am starting to think. then the values will be off, by 4-6%ish, and will need to be edited. The character sheet only lists max damage in, your “weapon damage” box, so led to a incorrect assumption.
Thanks for reminding me of the steady. that will make things easier. Or will take your word for those. If you have already calculated any, and are willing to take the time to type it out, I’ll just edit the op.
The blind is notably weaker then other blind applying abilities.
What is the difference in blinds that differentiates the FT one to be so weak, the duration?
Duration is generally the same.
range, secondary effects, cooldown etc.
Weapon based:
Grenade-flash grenade 5s blindness. 150 aoe radius. 1200 range. 10s cooldown. 10s duration if both hit.(6.5×3 with 30 in explosives)
Smoke bomb- 5s blindness. 240 aoe radius. 3s smoke field. 25s CD
Static shot- 900 range .37p direct, 2 stacks of confuse, 3s blind. 4 target bounce. 15s cd
Utility slot:
Flame turret-overcharge/smoke screen. 2s blind per pulse 5s duration. 450 radius. combo field smoke. 30s CD
Elixir U. Throw elixir U. 30%ish chance of smoke screen. line smoke combo field. blocks projectiles. 60s cd OK, unreliable as a blind. but an option.
Traits:
Go for the eyes. rifle trait. 50% chance on crit for 5s, 10s CD
Autobomb dispenser: smoke bomb when disabled. 60s CD. an option for bomb builds, although unlikely.
FT: smoke vent. 5s blind, 180 radius 20s cd.
Its very basic. No frills, no extras. an entire slot with a 20s CD, to make your opponant miss one attack. That is garbage. The only other, with no extra effects is flash grenade. which is 1200 ranged, and 10s CD.
Why does SMOKE vent, not have a smoke field?
Want real laughs? compare it to a thief’s black powder.
direct damage hit. 900range blind, and 4s smoke field 180 aoe. No cooldown, initiative.
Smoke fields blind on projectiles, aoe stealth on blast, stealth on leap (don’t think we have a whirl option.)
I feel the flamethrower is significantly underpowered compared to pretty much every other weapon option.
The blind is notably weaker then other blind applying abilities.
FT 1 is mathematically much much weaker then other pretty much every other auto attack. even if you ignore the targeting/missing issues.
FT2 is good in groups. it misses too much solo. FT3 is good.
Juggernaut is good.
Fireforged, deadly mixture and juggernaut, force you into a 30firearms, 20 alch build. which leaves very little real options.
Grenades are used by 9/10 engies for a reason.
And gain a good 80% damage increase with 25 and 30 points in explosive. In fact, increase everyones damage on target by 24% pretty much.
If you want to use grenades, its really hard to justify not going 30 explosives. Steel-packed and grenadier are simply. way too good.
They out damage everything else by a very significant amount.
Where to put the rest?
I honestly feel the Alch line is also, much much better then the rest.
formula 409 is god mode. conditions become a thing of the past when you have it.
H.G.H is also quite good. It can be good, or really really good. 30% boon duration just by going 30 in alch. 10-20% boon duration on food. 20% boon duration on rune, or 20% might duration. (probably can 2piece for even more.)
Then elixir up. Elixir H by itself isnt very good. As you say, medkit or turret. but with 409 cleansing, its now 2 cleanes. and with hgh. its 2 mights.
The throw is prot, regen, or vigor. 2 out of 3 are useful under fire.
Elixir B is pretty fantastic. 2 stacks of might on use. fury, swift, and ret. 13,15,or 17s durations depending on +boon amount. The use elixir B at 75% gains from hgh, and 409 as well. it will give you 2 stacks of might, and cleanse you. the throw B is completely unreliable as it only gives 1 of those buffs. But with 409 and hgh, its now reliable might and cleanse.
Elixir R. Break stun. (fear, kb, kd, stun) refills end, for 2 more dodge rolls. And throw is res. you can res yourself. Also pulses cond removal.
Elixir U. Utility. While B is supreme buffs. Giving you raw power. U gives you some nice options. The self use gives quickness. Note also gains 409 and hgh. but lets you burst a TON of damage. spamming g1. Toss Elixir U is very underrated. The randomness scared many away. It will drop 1 of 3 walls. A mesmer Viel. A thief smokescreen, or a guardian wall of reflection. 2 of the 3 have similar functions. Smokescreen blocks projectiles, while wall of reflect reflects them. so that is what its used for, pretty reliably. Veil, stealths those that enter it. A totally different need, unfortunately, and one you can’t control. smoke is a smoke field, for blinding/stealth on combos as well, while veil and reflect are light field.
Alch’s base is +30% boon duration, and +3000 life.
Most gadgets are terrible. Ram gives a KB if you really need it. though, you could just kit FT, for a KB and other skills.
Lots of problems as people have noted. My thoughts.
1. Catas on doors.
Aoe through walls in general. A necessary evil. coding to stop aoe though it would be incredibly difficult. So we should look for alternatives.
Increase ram attack range. Allowing rams to hit from farther back, would allow them and attendants to avoid catas through doors. Oil may need a +range to compensate as well. All siege but arrow carts, should give stability. or.. perhaps it should be an additional skill on siege. Think, ram, flame wall, 5s stability buff.
2. aoeing walls. Attacking up is stronger then down.
Yeah, walls in general. Aoeing the edge of walls is lame. A camera rework would be amazing honestly. If we could shift the camera to a top down.(Mad king!), then we could aim aoes onto walls from below, especially ones with arcs, like mortar/grenades/raiin of arrows. Same would apply to defensive though, we could aim down much easier. currently, you can’t get close enough to the wall to fire down, without getting sniped, or aoed. Siege, out of aoe range, is the only defense.
3. The edge of the all allows attacks from below, but attacks on the wall, hit the edge. The only way to attack down, is stand on the edge.
The murder hole idea would help a bit. Having lips, where defenders could go right up to the wall edge, and fire down, without having to worry about getting pulled off, and having attacks hit the edge of the wall, dealing no damage, while all attacks on them, land. This however would not solve the aoe problem. and would be a deathtrap.
4. Cannons/oil. useless, because any force just burns them down. and you can not man them, as you die instantly to the aoe, bouncing hits.
Cannons/oil need to give stability and protection to the user, at the least. full immunity wouldnt be unbalanced. Not like cannons/oil have that much hp.
The Entire “Kit” mechanic was a last minute thing to give Engineers more weapons, with out having to add them for other classes.
They need to scrap it, so long as they have a “Kit” mechanic engineers will be subpar. Think about it for a minute. If there was a Grenade Weapon, a MedKit weapon, etc, etc would we be in a better spot?
Our class “mechanic” was a bandaid to prevent Arena Net from having to do extra work, and it shows.
Mercy kill it before it wrecks the class for good. It is still close enough to release to fix, but the longer you go the harder it will be to fix.
Not quite. Kits are different then weapon swaps. No cooldown. Multiple kits.
A thief can’t have shortbow, d/d AND s/p.
We CAN have p/p, grenade AND flamethower. if we wanted to.
Of course, part of the problem is traits don’t accommodate that at all.
FT and EG use similar traits. About the only ones that do have cross use potential.
yes. I find that pretty much all weapon sets scale better with power then condition damage.
Now, .324 vs .1 is not the full story.
+cond duration can buff cond damage value. While armor and weapon damage modify power.
And of course traits, etc.
If armor is 2000-2600 ish. And weapon damage is 900-1200 ish. That .324 is being reduced by 50-60%. down to .160. but then crit, crit damage rebuff. traits that give +10% damage, etc. 5% to bleeding targets for firearms. vul is +25% direct damage at 25 stacks.
Coated bullets can double or triple pistol 1’s direct damage aoe, but does not apply that bleed aoe. So with coated bullets, power is far far better.
Without coated bullets its close. PDV scales with power much better. Static is close. If the target attacks, cond is better, if they clease, or don’t attack, power is better. Blowtorch cond is better if target does not cleanse.
+duration can be a huge damage buff to short duration conditions. especially bleed. While it might seems longer conds benefit more, shorter ones really do. Heres why.
A burn. a 10s burn, getting +50% becomes 15s. That is simply too long. a player will cleanse it. an npc will die before it full burns. a boss will probably have that burn overstacked, with 100% uptime and thus wasting it.
While pistol 1’s 2s bleed, becomes a 3s bleed with +50%. 3s bleeds wont ever hit the 25 stack max. they wont get cleansed, and they will likely do full damage to trash.
And +duration works with mights +cond.
And yeah. fumigate. Horrible skill all around. The base damage is so low. Seriously, I kindof think its supposed to be .355/hit 5 hits. that would still be low, to justify its other effects. but right now .077/hit. Just wow. it doesnt remove conditions off yourself. So super elixir does a better job of that. Seriously, super elixir+EG1. the projectiles will remove conditions in a line in front of you. Poison. PDV has longer duration, shorter CD. the vul for that low of damage also not worth it.
Added some more.
Have some questions with testing.
Heavy golems are supposed to have 2600 armor. I do not remember where we got this number off the top of my head. same when figuring the tooltip damage value.
I was trying to figure out the min/max of weapon kits.
Testing on golems however, inconsistent.
First tried EG.
129min-143 max hit with 961 power
.38coeff. And thought to be 2600 armor.
But 137 was tooltip listed. I was hitting heavy golem for more then I should have.
4.4%
that was a 911-1009, or 960ave figure. Hrm. Although, if I *96%…
875-969. That might be it.
Prybar testing . got 933-1046 that was hitting for like 8% more then it should have. I can’t explain this.
More. Rifle turret. Rifle turret lists 318. it hits heavy golems for 317. Suggesting correct, but a decimal variance.
But every direct damage weapon. rifles, pistol, kits etc deals MORE then list.
Hmm. Tooltip is the average, NOT the max, perhaps? That might be it. Turrets do not have varied damage. its 318 every time.
Rifle is 1205 exotic.
Why does everyone claim the damage as 1205 as if you can assume you will get max damage 100% of the time?
Damage is factually 986-1205 average of 1095.5. That 1095 is a more actually applicable number, and is 100 lower then the one you throw in all of your equations.
Just thought I would point that out for the sake of practicality.
its what the tooltip is based on. and kits we dont know any value other then the max. I should test that. should be able to figure out with the coeffs, and upper/lower bounds. Its a nice easy constant though.
but yes, upper and lower specifically is a better point of reference, as well as average.
In theory a weapon could be like 1075-1090, and would be better then a 950-1200 weapon. A 1083 vs 1075 average.
A pistol is 876-1029. (note 1025 was wrong.)
952.5 average.
Did test EG naked no traits in mist.
129 min, 143 max.
.38 coeff, 961 power, 2600 armor.
This gives a 911 min, 1009 max. That is a 960 average.
Needs more testing. Its possible in kits case, 969 IS the average.
tried prybar. got 933-1046. Heavy golem armor is less then 2600. source of the issue I think. need more work.
(edited by Casia.4281)
Per the info that was just posted:
FT1 1.43p over 10 hits, 2.5cast, 1s burn at end. tooltip lies about 5 attacks/s, 10per 2.5 is
and
r1 .599p, .8asSo, the scaling seems very close, not to mention the condition damage.
.599×3 for 3 hits in 2.4s=1.797
Flamethrower is 969 weapon damage.
Rifle is 1205 exotic.
2000 power for both. (we’ll ignore rifle having +170 on gun)
FT1: 1.43*969*2000/2600= 1065 15% trait=1225 over 2.5s 10 hits melee conal
R1: 1.7971205*2000/2600= 1666 *10% trait=1832 over 2.4s. 3 hits piercing 1000 range.
50% more damage. wouldnt call that close at all. and no one claims rifle1 is exactly the highest dps in the game. If we add blunderbuss, and leap 2-3x as much damage.
I am of the opinion that FT should be the #1 damage option at point blank for engineers. To do that, it needs a 70-100% damage upgrade to FT1. (and grenades need to be nerfed of course) Right now, its the lowest. Rifle, pistol, elixir gun all do more damage. Seriously EG out damages FT by quite a bit.
I also feel FT’s blind is half a move. Name one other blind with that cooldown, that is only a blind. It needs a smoke field. and/or a damage component. Engi has blind options from many places that all superior.
Static shot. ranged, bouncing blind. 15s cd. deals heavy direct damage and confuse.
smoke bomb. 25s cd,5s blind, 3s duration smoke field. 240 radius
flash grenade. 10s cd, 5s each duration 150×2 radius, traited to x3.
elixir U. smoke screen. smoke field.
Compared to smoke vent. 20s cd 180 radius 5s duration
Naplam. fire field. Nothing to combo it within flamethrower. 1s burn. no direct damage, no direct burn.
Air blast is good.
Burst is good when it works.
I never noticed that Rifled barrels increased durations on conditions, as it only says it increases range of the weapon, am I missing something?
yes, I had originally thought, when I noticed the variance in EG1’s bleed, that it was a spvp/pve thing. however, someone corrected me, and I checked it out.
I don’t know exactly what is going on there, but its probably an insight in to how the database for skills work. its a not a modifier. Adding rifled barrels likely redirects to an entirely new entry.
EG1, 2 and 5’s tooltips change when you equip rifled barrels. And not simply 900-1200.
The durations of weakness and bleed on eg1 change. the durations of cripple and swiftness on 2 change. and the entirety of super elixir’s tooltip changes.
With rifled barrels, super elixir shows the old tooltip. It doesnt scale with level, it will read 60 healing, 10 pulse, not list combo field. not list aoe size.
However, for EG2, and EG 5, this is purely a tooltip error. the skills themselves work properly with or without.
EG1 however actually changes in function. Weaken gains 2s duration, while its bleed loses 1 second.
I do not remember beta stats of EG1. I would suspect this is how it used to work?
Somewhere along the way, they changed how EG 1 works, edited the normal data entry, but forgot to edit the rifled barrels version. While all 3 tooltips were not updated.
yes. why would we want reason?
Are you aware mesmer phantasms were nerfed considerably? Partially a bug effecting damage, as well as needing to land to be summoned. aka blinds, blocks, los, cuase phantasms to go on cooldown, while NOT being summoned.
were you aware grenade barrage didnt have its damage reduced at all?
How can you justify grenade aoe burst damage under the effects of quickness? either allied or self? Or the vul stacking?
Your entirely argument seems to be built on 1v1. “zomg, If my targeted isn’t controlled, I can’t 3 shot them” And if they are? Grenades are the highest burst/sustained dps option in the game. Building a spvp team, where you are dps, and run with a support/control allys. Example, glamour/timestop mesmer, CC guardian(or control engi). 2v1. mesmer+me, we can duo 5-10 with ease. Feedback and timestop. Reflect counters reflect. time stop means my damage will be supreme. 10k dps with g1 alone. Temporal curtain, or guardian aoe knockdowns. The sustained damage potential of g1 and g2 are way way too high, with grenadier.
(edited by Casia.4281)
My stopwatch says people saying grenades travel faster, are imagining things.
I’d like some proof before saying they do. I unfortunately did not recorded any proof. Prior to patch to show.
Barrage “buff”. it was always 8 grenades with grenadier. That was not a buff. just a tooltip fix.
It did however get the range increase. that is a buff.. sortof… Barrage does suffer from spread. Especially at 1500 range. It wouldn’t call it unusable at 1500. but its not ideal for sure.
Incendiary powder was just a tooltip fix as others have stated, it has always been 3s cooldown.
Elixir R nerf is completely understandable. Its revive mechanic CD is now on par with other professions skills with a similar mechanic.
Grenade barrage in spvp. I don’t see the 10% nerf as stated. seems exactly th same to me.
Shrapnel however was nerfed by 18% not, 15%.
One simple thing they could do to please tens of thousands of players(if not hundreds of thousands) about to quit over the ascended gear, like myself. They just make wvwvw seperate from PVE. Have it have the same gear system as sPVP except you can transmute PVE skins onto them, this will make everyone happy, and by everyone I mean the real wvwvw players who care about beating someone with skill and not stat increases, the real players, the one that played this game because progression was supposed to be cosmetic only.
As far as I know, the “real” wvwvw players don’t care about stat increases cause in the end 5v3 is always better than a 1v1. No need to outmatch your opponent in stats when you can outsmart them.
Strategy is everything. Stop whining about gear. Keep playing and you will catch up in gear to the PvE guys eventually. Anet is not stupid. PvE guys will get a headstart, as they get with everything but that’s gonna be it. They will allow you to catch up (in gear) to them PvE grinders soon enough.
if your strategy doesn’t include coming prepared with the proper gear, then your strategy is inherently flawed.
While you keep +friendship and +guts vs that door. I’m going to bring siege and drop rams.
FT is SERIOUSLY underpowered.
EG is quite good.
Try, p/s, healing turret, EG, Elixir U and Elixir R for mega WvW support.
30 alch, deadly mixtures, 409, fast acting.
20 firearms. fireforged, and rifled barrels.
20 tools. deployable turrets, and kit refinement.
So what do you have?
1200 range EG. Bouncing EG 2. good sniping.
Strong debuffs on it.
Lots of aoe healing, lots of cleansing. (recently nerfed of course.) 2 super elixirs.
2 large light fields. aoe cleanse, or projectile cleanse.
Overcharge on turret. aoe direct heal, aoe cleanse.
Water field toolbelt. Blast for direct heal. (shield or supply drop.)
409 on throw, or self use. cleansing.
fumigate cleanse if you REALLY have to. fumigate is bad.
Blocking/blind/reflecting.
Elixir U throw.
has 3 options. they are not equal 33% each.(or at least dont seem to be to me.)
seems to be 50% chance of wall of reflection. REFLECT projectiles. light combo field. This is amazing, when you get it.
30% chance of smoke screen. blind on target. combo field smoke. (smoke gives blind on projectile, and stealth on blast) Blocks projectiles.
So, throw Elixir U has a good 70% chance to block or reflect projectiles. Not really as unreliable as its made out to be. Block and reflect are similar functions. even if reflect is obviously better. note, it does cleanse conditions and give might with 409/hgh.
20% veil. least chance and least useful amusingly. stealth and light field. As this one serves an entirely different function, its the one you don’t want.
Shield point blank reflect, kb. this makes you immobile, doesnt protect allies. less useful then the throw. Kb and blast however has its use. aoe heal on water field, aoe ret on super elixir, or the U light fields, aoe stealth on the smoke field.
Shield also blocks on you. stunning, or throw for daze.
P3 blind bouncing.
Weaken, blinds, daze, stun, blocks, reflects, heals. you can shut people down.
Quicken. PDV, EG1 will do will. Not grenade 1+quicken… but its ok. This is a mega support build, not a dps one.
Elixir R. probably already knew how good this was. Pulsing cond removal, self rez, ranged ally rez. The nerf to CD was justified, other professions were on 120-160s CDs on theirs. Stun breaker, for you. and cleanse with 409.
Toolbelt recharges at 25%.
Water field, regenx2, elixir U block/reflect, and elixir R and its huge CD, self res. (always up) note, I think this is unreliable. the trait doesnt work on everything, need to test it.
EG2 and 4 scale pretty well with power.
Runes. monk, dwayna, mercy, lyssa, centaur
Mix stats. Power, crit, tough, healing. you are getting some crit chance and damage from your traits. you’ll need more crit to make use of that crit damage, power to make use of both crit and crit damage, and healing for all that healing. And a bit of tough to stay alive.
Well, I’ve done alot of math on skills testing builds, but only have posted in relevant topics. I suppose a single consolidated post makes sense.
These sometimes get ninja changed without patch notes. Do keep that in mind, as I don’t check every skill every patch.
These are all base values, NOT taking into consideration talents. Noting specific conditions on most, but not listing skills with conds, but no direct damage atm. Might add those later.
Consider kits have a max weapon damage of 969. Exotic rifles are 1205, exotic pistols are 1025. (I did not note ascended/legendary upgrade values)
“Tooltips are based on max damage vs a 2600 armor target.” This appears to be incorrect. Character sheet lists max damage only in the attack panel, however, evidence is suggesting:
Tooltips are average damage vs a 2600 armor target.
Weapons do of course have a damage range. Do not know exactly what the range on toolkits are, as only the 969 is shown.
TBA figure out gadget/kit min/max.
Damage is calculated as:
skillcoeff*weapondamage*power/armor=damage.
armor is defense+toughness.
The stat “attack” in your character sheet is meaningless. damage is weapon TIMES power. not plus.
Warning, Values not labeled as corrected are incorrect. off by 4-10%, due to max vs average mistake.
#p= power coeff. as=attack speed
Pistol: 876-1029 exotic weapon damage. (SentinelArk corrected ratios)
p1 .35p, .8 as, 2s bleed
p2 .4p x5, 2s cast, 2s poison per hit
p3 .4p x4, .8s as, 3s blind, 2stacks 3s confuse per hit
p4 .33p at 200, .99 at 600, .8as, 3stacks of 2s burn, or 1 stack of 2sburn.
Shield: 806-909 exotic weapon damage 61 defense (SentinelArk corrected)
S4 .25
s5 .5×2
Rifle: 986-1205 exotic weapon damage. (SentinelArk corrected)
r1 .65p, .8as
r3 1.6p at 100, 1p at 400, .8as, 4 stacks of 4s bleed at 100, 1 stack of 4s bleed at 400
r4 1p, .8as
r5 .9p leap, 1.8p land, 3 stacks vul on… uh. land I think. need to double check that.
Flamethrower: 969 weapon damage
FT1 1.5p over 10 hits, 2.5cast, 1s burn at end. tooltip lies about 5 attacks/s, 10per 2.5 is 4)
FT2 .75p ball, 1.75 blast. (not a blast finisher)
Elixir gun: 969 weapon damage
EG1 .4p, .8 as, 1s weakness, 4s bleed. (Rifled barrels changes this to 3s weakness, 3s bleed)
EG2 .75p x4, .8as, 3s cripple, 3s swiftness. (rifled barrels says it changes this to 5s, it does not)
EG3 .08p x5, 2.5s cast, 1s poison, 1 6s vul, cleanses conds on allies in cone. (yes this is HORRIFICALLY bad)
EG4 .85p/tick, 5s duration= 6 ticks.
Bomb: 969
B1 1.25p, .8 as
B2 .2p, .8as, 2s burn
B3 .5p, .8 as, 5 stacks 5s confuse
BoB 1.7p (1.65?)
Grenades: 969
Pve
g1 .5p per, .8as, x2
g2 .55p per, .8as, x2, 1 stack 12s bleed per
g4 .5p per, .8as, x2, chill
Barrage .375p per, .8as, x6 (8 with grenadier)
pvp.
g1 .45p per, .8as, x2
g2 .45p per, .8as, x2, 1 stack 12s bleed per
g4 .45p per, .8as, x2, chill
Barrage .375p per, .8as, x6 (8 with grenadier)
(note. g1 and g2 got the labeled 10% nerf, about. g2 got an 18% nerf, not 15%, and barrage does not appear to have gotten its stated 10% nerf at all)
Wrench: 969
W1: .82p, .8p, 1.75p .8as, .8as, 1s as. first two hits are aoe melee. last hit is single target melee.
W2 2p, .8s as, 3 stacks confuse. Single target melee.
Throw .75px2
Turrets:
tba
Gadgets: Appear to use kit 969 weapon damage.
Mine:
Throw/detonate .892p
Mine Field .5 x5
Rocket boots .712p
Kick .822p
Ram .893p
Launch .893
Elites:
tba
Traits/other
Acidic Elixir:
Discharge:
Retaliation:
Haven’t gotten to everything. I’ll take a moment to finish the numbers on the rest, when I get a chance.
As well as healing.
(edited by Casia.4281)
It was not WvW bonus, it was in PvE. And no bonus – I always had 27k until today.
No. wvw realm bonus. wvw awards stats to your entire world, not just WvW.
one of those is life up to 10.
Continued here….
Kits versus weapons. The only thing keeping grenades remotely balanced was the kit vs weapon damage, and loss of stats.
Imagine if/when they fix that?
Rifle 1 is .599 every .8s. Compare that to g1’s 1.434. (And vul stacking..)
The skill coeffs are clearly not comparable.
But a rifle is 1205 max damage vs kits 969. 19.6% difference.
Effectively meaning that .599 is * 15% due to damage being:
skillcoeff*weapon damage*power/armor=damage.
But even with that weapon damage, grenades are still clearly outscaling other weapons by incredably large amounts.
And other kits are completely trivial in comparison. bombs, flamethrower, EG.
FT1 is 1.43 over 2.5. G1 does more in .8s, then FT1 does over 2.5.
Over that same 2.5s G1 will do 4.3.
If you have ever heard me railing on how FT is broken, there you go. Even without the vul stacking grenades to 3times as much damage at FT.
If kits get fixed to have ascended/exotic levels of weapon damage, then grenade scaling will be out of control. So, at that point, yes grenade base damage will need to be reduced.
But right now. as stated .599 rifle +15% exotic rifle. .688 scaling.
Nerfed grenades without grenadier . 429×2= .858 scaling. While the scaling itself is still higher. The amount of scaling is not really on par with ground targeted projectile nature, and of course the loss of stats.
I don’t how any one could defend timewarp+grenadier as not being completely op.
(edited by Casia.4281)
Grenades were/are horribly op.
However, they nerfed the wrong thing.
Nerfing grenades at their base level effects how they preform untraited, as well as fully traited.
This is the main flaw with engineer design atm. supposed to be versatile, be able to swap kits, use mutiple kits.. but we can’t. you cant run grenades without grenadier, flamethrower without juggernaut, turrets without deployable, tools without power wrench, etc. So instead of versatile builds we need to be super focused. If I play my mesmer, I can go confuse build, with almost any weapon. Phanstasms with any weapon. Glamours with any weapon, etc. Traits effect a wide range of weapon builds. Glamours are eth fields, and phantasms do whirls, leap and projectile combos for more interrelationships.
back to grenades.
Grenades being super op lies largely with 2 traits.
Grenadier and steel-packed powder.
Grenadier is the single strongest trait in the game.
Default is 2 grenades. 1200 range.
Grenadier adds +1 grenade. Its easy to overlook exactly what that means.
50% damage upgrade. 1 is 50% of 2. Imagine it said + 50% damage, and + 300 range. People would clue into how absurd a trait it is a bit more.
But even then, if it were + 50% damage, it would be less powerful then it is now.
Shrapnel bleeds, frost chills, blind blinds, poison poisons.
+1 grenade means frosts 4s chillx2 giving an 8s chill, is not 4sx3, for 12s chill.
shrapnel is now 3 bleeds, not 2.
3 hits per throw. This is compounding. Its not just +50% damage.
Grenade attack is .8s. Same as pretty much everything.
Having 3 hits per .8s.
Steel packed powder. 5s vul ever explosion. +cond duration. 6.5s just by traiting down explosives. This trait was not designed for grenades AT ALL. even at x2 its op. But with x3 and grenade barrage its completely broken.
6.4s at .8s/throw is 8 throws. 8 throws is 24 hits. 24 stacks of vul in 6.4s with grenadier. AoE. Name something else that even comes CLOSE to that.
Grenade barrage. 8 grenades vs 6 with grenadier. yeah. 8 stacks of vul in .8s, on top of its damage. Again, steel packed was not designed with grenades in mind at all.
Sharpshooter. 10 points in firearms gives 33% chance on crit to place a bleed. Again the problem here is 3 hits per throw, or 8 with barrage.
30 point explosive grenades are 88% stronger then 20 point explosive grenades.
Think about that design. clearly flawed. 10 points nearly double your power.
Grenade damage scaling in pve. I have not tested claims of pvp changes.
g1 is .478 per. x2=.956, x3=1.434
g2 is .524 per. x2=1.048, x3=1.572
g4 is .478 per
barrage is .357, x6=2.14, x8= 2.856
Notes say -10% to g1, g4, and barrage. and 15% to g2. That would be .430 and .44 respectively. however, I see equal values on damage. so one of those was not true.
let me check. in mists.
g1 is .429
g2 is .429
g3 is .429
barrage is .356
Dirty liars. Barrage didnt change at all. g1, and g4 lost 10.2%, ok.
g2 lost 18%
The nerf to g2 was justified.
g1 has 150 aoe.
g2 has 180, does 2 or 3 15 second bleeds(at 30 explosives), and was scaling at 18% more. on a 5 or 4s CD. Its a crazy powerful skill.
3 15s bleeds, on a 4s CD. That is 12 stacks of bleed alone.
Rifled barrels is very questionable yes. It would SEEM good..
but rifles only have 1 ability that gains from it.
Pistols 2, but really you want to be in 200-600 range with pistol, so no reason for +range.
EG gains the most, with 3 moves, of which all 3 are really good long range. although, 2 moves are very short range, and rifled barrels buffs the weaken, but shortens the bleed on EG 1.
all in all. if you are going rifle focus. 10% damage, 20% cooldown reduc, and go for the eyes blind are by far the best options. Vul on crit is a bit in frequent really. Purely group pve, ok the vul I guess. but solo pve, and pvp, the blind is better.
Thats the joke. they steal things from everybody.
Asuran or Dwarven. not really sure.
iirc piercing shot on pistol #1 does not apply conditions beyond the first target only the direct damage(power) component of the shot
wording sounds wrong there. It can be confusing to describe.
Direct hits by pistol one have the p1 bleed applied. if you have two targets in a straight line, with coated bullets. each will get the bleed.
The exploding shot does NOT apply the bleed. when a target is hit multiple times due to the exploding hit, they will not get the bleed applied. Even when p1 explodes at max range and double hits the primary target. this is simple the shot piercing, and exploding again at max range, and hitting the primary target once with direct, and once with exploding aoe.
This is of course further complicated by the sharpershooter trait in firearms. Where that bleed chance on crit, is applied to every single hit aoe. If you hit a target 3 times, 3 chances to apply that bleed.
I disagree with the title. I ran almost nothing but Tool Kit for the last 4 hours in WvW and it was amazing. The new pull almost makes me feel OP.
play mesmer, theif, gaurdian, etc. everyone has pulls.
I thought that Tranqualizing Dart is 4s bleed everywhere and if you take Rifled Barrels trait, then it would be 3s bleed and longer weakness duration.
Oh, you are right. I was mistaken in thinking it was a spvp/pve thing.
Rifled barrels changes the tooltips on the conditions on EG1, 2 and 5.
EG1. lists 1s weakness, and 4s bleed without rifled barrels.
Rifle barrels lists 3s weakness, and 3s bleed. this is actually how it works.
EG2. lists 3s cripple, 3s swiftness. without rifled barrels.
rifle barreled lists 5s cripple, and 5s swiftness. This is a lie. its still 3s.
EG5. lists combo field, proper scaling etc.
EG with rifled barreled uses the old tooltip with no scaling 64 healing at 80. ha. no combo field listed. it works properly.
Tool tips are not 100% accurate.
Its a start, but actual testing and math give the rest.
Tooltip listed damage is based on 2600 armor target. this is a heavy golem in the mists. Players and most npcs will have less. ( a few players may have more)
yeah, EG would be much better for a solo champ fight.
The weaken+power scaling. Swap to pistol to apply static shot confuse+blind to further reduce damage taken.
Acid bomb and elixir F also scale really well with power.
What?
Pistol 1 is .324 power scaling, with a 2second bleed. Aoe direct damage.
EG 1 is .380 power scaling, with a 4(3s in spvp) bleed. 1s weakness.
Both have a .8s recast time. i know pistol says 1/2s, and Eg 3/4s. but you get 1 shot every .8s with both.
Now, while EG scales better with power directly, pistol has an advantage of using pistols, and not kits.
if you have 2000 power with EG.
its .380*969*2000/armor(lets say 2600, aka tooltip.)=283
while an exotic pistol is 1025, not 969. And gets weapon stats, +170 power
so, its, .324*1025*2170/2600= 277
so, even with higher pistol damage, and that extra power, EG 1 should still be hitting harder directly.
And its always been like this.
This also does not take into consideration the +15% damage buff you can trait EG for.
Conversely, EG 1 is singlet target, while p1 is aoe hit. and can be traited for piercing, allowing double hits with the right positioning.
Tbh this was a fairly balanced change.
Grenades in spvp move faster, which decreases spread at all ranges btw. This was needed and useful. This combined with grenade barrage being fixed/buffed to work with grenadier puts at grenades at a net buff in spvp. Remember that with rifle out, grenade barrage scales with rifle stats/sigils.
Grenades recieved no nerfs in wvw/pve at all, only buffs.toolkit changes
Magnet: Now quite useful in wvw.
Gear shield: 1 second of added block, good.Smoke bomb: Reduced aoe. Meh, it was only ever good in melee range anyway. Went from 4 blinds over 3 seconds to 3 blinds over 4 seconds. This one could go either way tbh as blind doesn’t benefit from being over-applied. If it was a nerf, it was a pretty dam light nerf.
Toss Elixir-R. Meh, this was the only real nerf tbh. Elixir R is still our best stunbreaker so w/e.
All of the other changes were neither here nor there and fairly worthless to boot. Elixir S is still bugged, even though they said they fixed it. Go figure.
Anyone trying to claim grenades were buffed is completely uninformed.
Faster grenades. I broke out the stopwatch. Can not tell a difference. (in fact, I was getting slower numbers. Seem to remember timing at 1.5s air time for 1500 range. clocked at 1.7-1.8 now. I’ll admit, human error is a possibility here). But frankly 10-15% of 1.5s is .15-.22 of a second.
Human reaction time is 2-4ms. Even if true, this is a completely negligible change. It will make no difference in landing or missing grenades. especially at closer 100-900 range.
Grenade barrage already was throwing 8 grenades with grenadier. that is a tooltip fix, not a buff. It did get a range buff. although due to spread, you do not want to be throwing it at max range.
Damage was nerfed… it deserved it… but it was done completely wrong.
Grenade damage was nerfed directly. Grenadier wasn’t nerfed. Grenadier was the problem. The vul stacking was the problem.
Grenades without grenadier are now completely useless. this is a giant problem in engineer design. we have all these kits, but they suck without traiting for them. You CAN’T run grenades, flamethower, elixir R.
We have LESS versatility then other professions because our traits are so specific, with a few key super strong traits.
grenade damage was indirectly nerfed in pve/wvw due to legendary/ascended weapon buff as well. Granted, this was reverted. but it still coming. We now have have an expiration date if kits are not fixed fast. flamethrower is already unusable due to poor base damage. EG is marginal.
it was already throwing 8 with grenadier.
however, it was not gaining the +range. it does now.
Has anyone tried out the new speed of the nades? Is it enough to make it so we can reliably hit a moving target, or is it pretty much useless?
I see no difference in flight speed at all. Broke out the stopwatch and can see no change.
Very dissappointing.
Legendary weapons were buffed to Ascended weapon level as well.
+55 max damage.
Kits are still 969. Not cool at all.
no. wvw is pve settings. “pvp” is spvp/tourneys.
Centaur op.
I like stats, but some of the 6 pc runes are kindof op.
Hoelbrok. do you have hgh? Lets those might stacks even higher. -cond duration is really strong. kills many of them.
Mercy. take less damage while reviving allies. 10% faster reviving allies, and allies revive with more hp.
Monk is really good. +15% boon duration. again, if you use hgh, or elixir B. super good. On elite skill use, you and allies gain Aegis for 30s. Aoe block.
Water. also super good. again 15% boons duration. aoe heal on heal.
Lyssa. +10 conditions duration. random boon on heal, on elite cure all conds, gain all buffs for 5s.
Consider how powerful a supply drop that cures you of all conds, and buffs you for 11s? Or monks, supply drop, +aoe block.
Strong at that level?
Strong outlaw (master) is level 35.
Strong leather (Blue) is level 45.
yeah, saying elixir gun is low damage is just flat out wrong. It does more damage then flamethrower. Arguably more then pistol as well.
There was a better thread I think then that one linked. I info dumped a bit. but I dont even see me talking about coeffs, etc. must have been a different thread.
It scales very well with direct damage first. Do not make the cond damage mistake.
There is a problem of the +15% damage trait vs other good alch traits. You can’t get 15% damage on eg/ft, AND both 409 and HGH. only 2 of the 3.
range. amusingly, its the highest damage/longest range weapon. 2 offensive 1200 range abilities. 1 support.
Fumigate is terrible.
Acid bomb is very high damage. Scales at .809/tick over 5s. or 6 ticks. on a target that doesnt move. yikes. Example, dropped this on some seige golems attacking our keep a few weeks ago. 2300, 2300, 2300, 2300, 2300, 2300. yeap. haha first tick application is also, INSTANT. Its not like a dot which ticks at the end of a full second. Which is why its 6 ticks over 5 seconds.
Elixir F scales at .715. 4 targets bouncing. Very high for a bouncing move as well.
Burst potential at point blank is nice then. 1500 ish elixir F, 2500 bombs.
Main problem is the kit damage problem. 969. Its noticeably lower then an exotic rifle. And doesn’t have grenades completely broken power scaling, to compensate.
Acid bombs pathing needs work. It will get you killed more then you like, when it fails to make you leap back. It needs to break chill,immo,cripple, and evade you.
Rifle offers a KB which is huge in any pvp endevour, to set up attacks, or interrupt stomps.
Rifle 1 will also deal more raw damage then eg 1. Again, rifle base scaling off that 1205 exotic just beats a kits scaling. But then again, weakness.
Pistol offers nice CC options in addition to EG. Blind, confuse. with poff a root. with shield, a KB, block, and daze. P/S+EG is really really hard to kill.
(edited by Casia.4281)
I think that we’ve been given the worst possible gear example for ascended item – a magic find ring. The thing that everyone is missing is, that power and precision are secondary stats on that item and magic find is primary.
If other ascended items are going to follow that schema then we’re facing:
42% increase in primary stat (going from 7% to 10%) – that is huge
8% increase in secondary stats (going from 48+15 power/precision to 50+18) – that looks OK, but on full gear makes enough difference.Primary stat on all other rings would go from 92 on exotic to 131 on ascended – and again – that is huge difference. Currently its like upgrading from blue to exotic – that’s 3 tiers difference not 1 and that can’t be right, unless magic find scales a lot better then all other stats or there wont be ascended items other then magic find.
Its not going to work like that.
We can assume the MF is bugged a bit. As noted going from 3+4 to 10 is huge. 43%
First look at the jewel and ring seperately.
Ring goes from 48 to 50. 2 points. or 4%
Jewel goes from 15 to 18. 3 points, or 20%.
So the 8% average is clearly a huge misnomer itself. The jewel is gaining way way more then the ring.
Crit Damage might have the same problem as MF here. as we can see this already.
Look at a ruby jewel vs a coral.
coral has 14 cond, ruby has 3% crit damage.
While a coral ring has like 48 cond, and a ruby ring has 3% crit damage as well.
So which is it? is 3% crit damage worth 14 or 48 cond?
A 90 primary stat will likely then get 4% 3.6 from the 90. and +3 jewel from the ring. and thus 6 or 7 primary stat, and +5 for the 2 secondary.
hrm. 90 would be primary stat of an amulet, not ring.
(edited by Casia.4281)
Blue is the lowest rank server for a reason.