Guild Wars 2

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Casia.4281:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Casia.4281:

they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.

However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.

Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.

To suggest it is less than direct damage is silly and flat-out wrong. Do the math.

And yeah, bleed capping is the biggest problem. Nonetheless it’s still way more than anything you’ll ever get with direct damage on grenades.

grenade 1 at .33.
is still.
.33* 920average weapon damage* 2700power/2600=315.3 (7 stacks of might hgh, and + 250 bloodlust, 245 cond from might.)
315.3* 1.1* 1.05* 1.04* 1.05* 1.05= 417.5
(10% explosion, 5% not full end, 4% for 4 boons, 5% force,5% rune of str)
417.5+443=650 average damage.
50% crit chance with fury. 112% damage crits. hrm. zerkers does need more crit, should swap some stats for higher dps. 250 prec, would be better then 250 power here.
650×24 stacks of vul=807 average damage
3 grenades per .85s, 2420 per .85s, or 2831 dps.

Shrapnel is .55 per, 5s cd, and 3 15s bleeds.
1222 average per, or 3666 on a throw. 5s cd
1912+551=2463 bleed over 15s.

Bear in mind, this is versus a 2600 armor target.
Rabid. 1161 power, 1906 prec, 2401 cond, 7might, lets give this one 250 cond sigil, 5% force still rune of str still 60% damage crits
Shrapnel trait 15s bleed 3 per throw.
42.5+.05cond=120/s. 15s 1800 per bleed. 270 average per grenade, 810 per throw
171 direct, 222 average with crit.
275 av with 24 vul.
825.8 per 85s. 966 dps
810 bleed per throw.
shrapnel grenade
226damage, 285 with traits, 370 ave with crit, 459 with vul,
1378 av per throw 5s cd
5400 bleed (1800×3)

1 shrapnel, 5 grenade 1
Zerker,
15766 direct, 2463 bleed
18229 total.
rabid
5507 direct, 9450 bleed
14957 total

Barrage adds more direct damage.
Discharge adds more direct damage.
Swapping out some power for prec adds more direct damage.
Attacking a lower armored target adds more direct damage.

Direct damage simply scales better, and has more things that can buff its damage.
10% to grenades, 10% scholar, or 5% rune of str. 5% end is not full, 10% end IS full, 1% per boon, etc. Vulnerability 25% damage to direct only. 5% force sigil.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/77313-engineer-dps-calculations/

I can’t be bothered to make sense of whatever you tried to write there. Here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/77313-engineer-dps-calculations/

This is pre-patch, too. Note how pre-buff grenades is already way more damage even than pre-nerf grenades.

wrong math, wrong traits. take your pick.
Claiming hip shot only does 603 dps, while explosive shot does 323dps should have given you a hint something was wrong with his math.

The tooltip is not accurate.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Casia.4281:

they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.

However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.

Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.

To suggest it is less than direct damage is silly and flat-out wrong. Do the math.

And yeah, bleed capping is the biggest problem. Nonetheless it’s still way more than anything you’ll ever get with direct damage on grenades.

grenade 1 at .33.
is still.
.33* 920average weapon damage* 2700power/2600=315.3 (7 stacks of might hgh, and + 250 bloodlust, 245 cond from might.)
315.3* 1.1* 1.05* 1.04* 1.05* 1.05= 417.5
(10% explosion, 5% not full end, 4% for 4 boons, 5% force,5% rune of str)
417.5+443=650 average damage.
50% crit chance with fury. 112% damage crits. hrm. zerkers does need more crit, should swap some stats for higher dps. 250 prec, would be better then 250 power here.
650×24 stacks of vul=807 average damage
3 grenades per .85s, 2420 per .85s, or 2831 dps.

Shrapnel is .55 per, 5s cd, and 3 15s bleeds.
1222 average per, or 3666 on a throw. 5s cd
1912+551=2463 bleed over 15s.

Bear in mind, this is versus a 2600 armor target.
Rabid. 1161 power, 1906 prec, 2401 cond, 7might, lets give this one 250 cond sigil, 5% force still rune of str still 60% damage crits
Shrapnel trait 15s bleed 3 per throw.
42.5+.05cond=120/s. 15s 1800 per bleed. 270 average per grenade, 810 per throw
171 direct, 222 average with crit.
275 av with 24 vul.
825.8 per 85s. 966 dps
810 bleed per throw.
shrapnel grenade
226damage, 285 with traits, 370 ave with crit, 459 with vul,
1378 av per throw 5s cd
5400 bleed (1800×3)

1 shrapnel, 5 grenade 1
Zerker,
15766 direct, 2463 bleed
18229 total.
rabid
5507 direct, 9450 bleed
14957 total

Barrage adds more direct damage.
Discharge adds more direct damage.
Swapping out some power for prec adds more direct damage.
Attacking a lower armored target adds more direct damage.

Direct damage simply scales better, and has more things that can buff its damage.
10% to grenades, 10% scholar, or 5% rune of str. 5% end is not full, 10% end IS full, 1% per boon, etc. Vulnerability 25% damage to direct only. 5% force sigil.

Hrm. I am getting new numbers.
When I originally did the testing. I could have sworn, the damage was not based on your equipped weapon. only the stats it applied.
Barrage would hit the same with pistols or rifle.

if that was true or now then, it is NOT true now.

Barrage seems to be .5 per grenade scaling off your equipped weapon.

How this relates is unfortunately unreliable, as we can’t go back and doublecheck old figures.
But again, currently it is .5 per grenade, scaling with equipped weapon. rifles will hit harder then pistols.

Sephollos.4829:

As I understand it, all skills from all kits were nerfed to varying degrees to compensate for the addition of sigils. Grenade skill 1 was just the one that was nerfed the most so it is why it was highlighted in the patch notes.

I have not noted any other nerfs to any other kits.
If you have documented something, please state it.

PS, EG was a bug fix.

they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.

However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.

Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.

I should update the coeff post.

But the nerf was needed. and while “grenades are still the strongest” the variance is not so large anymore, that anything else is doing it wrong.
I am currently rifle/discharge and it is very strong as well.

It wasn’t even buffed really, as it didn’t depend on kits directly, so sigils worked for it already. well, sitting duck I suppose.
(Although, I could have sworn toolbelt skills used kit, not main weapon. And they clearly use main weapon now. so either I was mistaken when I first did the test some time ago, or they were changed at some point.. Regardless, throw wrench, rocketkick, suprise shot, etc are notably stronger with a rifle, then any other weapon.)

Want a strong alt build?
0/30/0/10/30.
(the 10 is actually preference. 10 in explosives? 100 power, 5% damage with not full end, to offset loss of damage when you dodge, or 10 in alch, for b at 75%, and S at 25% to ensure you don’t die or drop your bloodlust stacks)
10% rifle damage, 5% vs bleeding, sitting duck. 20 point can be range or cdr. note, that cdr is only really effective if its safe to get up into melee, it wont make your AA faster. the 8 vs 10s sitting duck/net is good either way though.
30 tools. 10% damage with full end. large damage buff, 30% crit damage, static discharge. kit refine or power tools, gadget, speedy kits your choice.

2 rifles, 1 bloodlust, or the crit one. not sure which is best atm. other 5% force. stack up, then swap to force.
medikit, TK, rifle turret, rocketboots.

TK and turret are almost entirely for throw wrench and surprise shot.
RB gives you another short CD discharge, that is targeted. (it won’t miss even if you are out of range of the melee kick, although a regular rifle AA is probably stronger, so not worth it), a nice CC break. And if you are in melee, the direct hit itself is pretty strong. Also boots and turret are blast combos. look for fire fields.

Gear. zerker accessories. armor, rifles. might want to get some extra prec. zerker does leave you low on crit. and an hgh build has very high fury uptime, medikit is lower. firearms does give free prec.
runes, scholar is highest burst potentil, but looses its main source when you drop below 90%. str is good, but you are not running perma-might with this, like an hgh build. Maybe a +20% fury rune would be better for this.

this is very competitive damage and control. Very very high burst potential.
Particularly if you can get might from allies.

(ps I actually am rifle/discharge, but with 30 alch, and 10 tools atm. I like 409 so much.)

Xavier.2176:

I understand that the “final” area of a game needs to be hard and unpleasant, but that final area could also be made in an interesting way. Placing a map full of undead isn’t an interesting way and I feel that the Anet people who did Orr either got lazy or are just incompetent. The least Orr could have is some breathing room between all those hordes of undead and some more enemy variety. Final areas should be fun too even if they’re hard. Now Orr is nothing more than a huge borefest and one of the worst designed final areas I’ve ever seen in any game.

Yeap. let me make another point.
15 variety kill daily.
undead all count as 1 type.

And yeah, the constant undead does not make the area scary. you need to create places of perceived safety, and variety, which will make the bad areas even more effective.

As noted, grenades, with grenadier is still the highest damage.
24stacks of vul via steel packed will ensure this for some time still.
Empowering adren is stronger then shrapnel trait still.
The improved shrapnel trait is nice. However, with grenades an sharpnel grenade, you are pushing 24stacks of bleeds by yourself very likely. Meaning if you play with anyone else, you probably are capping out bleeds.
5% damage maintained simply by dodging periodically, which you probably do anyway, is definitely stronger.

The variance is smaller now though.
Rifle/discharge is fun and strong as well.

Terrahero.9358:

Cures.7451:

lol – now you nonfactors start kittening about engineer underwater combat? really? ^^

Now? Ive said this back in the beta. Engineer underwater is complete kitten against an opponent that knows to keep his distance from you.
The moment an opponent will stick to 900-1200 range and keeps moving, you pretty much cannot deal any damage with grenades or speargun.

The best weapon is Elixirgun. Not that those 600crits are anything to celebrate, but atleast you actually hit.
Speargun is great in PvE, where you can swim close and unload triple Mines in somethings face for very high damage. And stuff doesnt move all over the place, so your Torpedo and Grenades can actually hit.

An opponent swimming away in a straigth line will outrange the torpedo so long as he was more then roughly 150range away from you when you fired.
Try it yourself. Get underwater, swim in a straight line and fire your Speargun. Note how the projectile doesnt get all that far away from you when it reaches max range.

Lets count our blessings underwater combat isnt all that common and most people suck at it. Because, again, anyone that just keeps a reasonable distance from the Engineer simply has a free kill. And there isnt really anything we got to close the distance, the only “gapcloser” also launches the Engineer back. If the enemy dodges it, you just got an even bigger gap. And it is easy to dodge.

Yeap. EG is really good.
Actually, combine it with speargun.

First, EG 1 is only .5s cast in water. If you hadn’t noticed. it shoots faster in water, then on land.
EG2 is just as strong as always.

Discharge procs twice on elixirs btw. once on throw, and once on activate. Granted. good luck aiming it..

Triple mines is good pve.

alcopaul.2156:

no one will take the fractal 2 player since he has no agony resistance.

the system is good for people with alts that are fed with ascended stuff from their main with constant guild parties who want to level alts. still won’t do kitten for the true low level characters who are pugging.

i don’t see the point of this change apart from the karma bonus.

Anyone 1-10 will take the level 2 player.

RoRo.8270:

Lionhearted.7169:

The probably with Orr is everyone who is lvl80 is forced to play their, there is no other choice so if like me you don’t feel inspired playing in some gloom & doom final zone over and over what will you do? Surely they could of had different themed lvl80 content, surely.. and it has nothing to do racing to lvl80, at some point everyone will be faced with the same issue. If it’s to your fancy fine, personally it has put me off the game which is a real shame seeing what could of been.

Considering the main focus of the campaign seemed to be Zhaitan where did you expect the final zones to be in rainbow village? It was a sunken city that was risen by an undead dragon to be used as a factory for undead.

at some level yes.
As a creator it is entirely in your power to make anything into form.
It is a giant mistake I keep seeing mmo devs make for some reason.
They think, "end game zone should be the harshest environment, enemy territory "

So its ugly as sin, annoying to navigate, etc.

But what they NEED to be thinking is, how much time will the player spend here?
Having 20 amazingly crafted zones, with varied environments, etc that you spend 30 hours leveling through.
then having 2 HIDEOUS, and annoying zones that you will now spend 500 hours farming, is an incredibly poor design choice.

And honestly, nearly every mmo has done it.

Just a note. tested. FT was not changed.
Flamethrower: 969 weapon damage
FT1 1.5p over 10 hits, 2.5cast, 1s burn at end. tooltip lies about 5 attacks/s, 10per 2.5 is 4)
FT2 .75p ball, 1.75 blast.

First thing you should get is 10 in tools for discharge.

Kits auto level. So are stronger leveling, then they are at max level. where they stop leveling at 80, and seem to be based on rare level gear, not exotic.
Additionally, at any given time your rifle/pistols are probably under your character level.

Forestnator.6298:

The point is, 20% condition duration does not give u anything: 2 sec bleeding + 20% =2,4 sec, rounded to 2,5 sec. But still 2 ticks of damage. Same with posion and burning. U need 50% or 100% additional condition duration. To reach this values – yes therefor those new weapons are great.

This depends ENTIRELY on the duration.
+20% on a 10s poison, poison dart volley for example is 12s duration.
It is adding 2seconds.
Now, PDV is 8s CD, 2s cast, and 10s duration innately… So if you are casting it every time. any +duration is pointless, as its already 100% up time. however, if you are not, that duration matters.
Same applies to burn, and blowtorch. 6s duration, 20% is 1.5s.

Explosive shot base bleed is 2s, so yes, you nee 50% to increase that 1 more second.
Sharpshooter however is 3s. you only need 33%, for 1 more second.

short vs long.
Yes, overly long durations tend to get removed, and its not reasonable to count that applied possible damage as actual damage.
A 15s bleed. Very rare for a 15s cond to stay on target for that long.
4-6s conds is ideal imho. that is the range, where they will last full duration, and we can reasonably count as actual .

Isslair.4908:

Sometimes I really want a DPS-meter in GW2. >_>

accurate combat logs, parsers do SO much for ferreting out bugs, and oversights.
People don’t understand this, all too often.

Kozai.8269:

Has anyone crunched numbers on what kinds of starting stats you would want to benefit more from the +250 Precision stack vs. the +250 Power stack when using grenades? I’m trying to work out what armor/rune, Sigil, and trinket sets to buy, having just dinged 80.

zerker is power over prec heavy. 30 explosives is 300 power.
250 prec is almost certainly better then 250 in that case.
Also any might stacks from hgh power, not crit.

Overcharged is instant. all3 would hit at the same time.
oh, did mean blunderbuss/overcharged.

I mean, If I use night, and get might from others, I can get 20k grenade barrage, and if I’m using 3 moves, lets add in 7k shrapnel, and 3k overcharged.

That is where wars get their damage , % damage buffs AND might in the same build.
Engs need to pick % damage buffs in tools, OR might in alch.

Our base skills are actually better in most cases.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Destroyer.1306:

Casia.4281:

best I can imagine barrage vs a 2000 armor target with 8/8 crits is like 14.5k +2k discharge?

Well, I suppose if you stacked vul first, then threw it.

Yes on Vul. I bet Grenade Barrage would work even better than my method, though I don’t have much luck on getting all 8 to hit. Alright, what the hell, I’ll share for Engineer pride. if I’m looking to one-shot, I run something like…

Full berserkers. 6 Ruby Orb.
25 stacks Sigil of Perception
Sigil of Air
Sigil of Night
Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup
Superior Sharpening Stone
Fury
If you have a friend around tossing Might, that’s good, but not necessary.
30 Tools for Crit Damage
25 Firearms is good for an extra 5% boost, but not necessary.

Analyze (10x Vulnerability), Throw Wrench, Surprise Shot. You can cast them simultaneously because only Throw Wrench has a casting time, though make sure you cast Analyze first. You should get 2k x3 Static Discharge. 4k for both passes of Throw Wrench. 1.5k for Surprise Shot. 1.5k for Sigil of Air. Should be an insta-kill, if you’ve found someone weak. Or at least ruin a regular player’s day.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I count 3 sigils?

STack up 25 stacks of bloodlust or prec. 250 power or 250 prec.
Swap to in this case pistols I assume.
10% damage at night, night. 30% chance on crit discharge air.

I personally, would not recommend pistols.
use rifle. and force for 5% all the time.
(still use a swap for 250 power or prec. )

Destroyer.1306:

KirinDave.6451:

Destroyer.1306:

Heh. Since the most recent patch, I’ve one-shot two people in WvW.

Congratulations. But do try to actually contribute rather than popping sparks on upleveled L20s with power gear. Breakout events mean you get less slack to go make highlight reels (of you not contributing a whit to the map status, but hey cool kills bro) if you want to keep all those nice leader bonuses.

It’s also an extreme mischaracterization to say people are “whining” that the class is too weak. Most of the complaints are, “That is a terrible direction for the class and the changes you’ve made and promise to make will only hurt that cause.” We have no confidence that Anet has a coherent plan for the Engineer.

Eh, I’ve got 12k lifetime kills and my server has been in first for a month. I’ve contributed enough to go out and see what my class can do from time to time.

Look, I WvW. This last patch was a huge Engineer buff from my perspective as a burster. Perhaps the dungeons crowd who need sustained DPS got nerfed on Grenade Kit 1, but these boards honestly sound like a lot of whining and not a lot of creativity with the Sigils, which is what I come here for.

I can’t argue. Seriously, this was a pretty nice buff we got overall.
But please try to be less disingenuous with “one shot”. that isn’t helping when its not even true. 3 shotting a level 40 in wvw is not something to make assertions about.

I am also on SoS. I didn’t appreciate my guild up and deciding to got to Seafarer’s..

when you say, sigil of air and sigil of night, I take that means, pistolx2?
Seriously, swap to rifle.

It will increase your chain light, wrench, etc damage 15%.

12k throw wrenches are totally possible.

Destroyer.1306:

Casia.4281:

best I can imagine barrage vs a 2000 armor target with 8/8 crits is like 14.5k +2k discharge?

Well, I suppose if you stacked vul first, then threw it.

Yes on Vul. I bet Grenade Barrage would work even better than my method, though I don’t have much luck on getting all 8 to hit. Alright, what the hell, I’ll share for Engineer pride. if I’m looking to one-shot, I run something like…

Full berserkers. 6 Ruby Orb.
25 stacks Sigil of Perception
Sigil of Air
Sigil of Night
Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup
Superior Sharpening Stone
Fury
If you have a friend around tossing Might, that’s good, but not necessary.
30 Tools for Crit Damage
25 Firearms is good for an extra 5% boost, but not necessary.

Analyze (10x Vulnerability), Throw Wrench, Surprise Shot. You can cast them simultaneously because only Throw Wrench has a casting time, though make sure you cast Analyze first. You should get 2k x3 Static Discharge. 4k for both passes of Throw Wrench. 1.5k for Surprise Shot. 1.5k for Sigil of Air. Should be an insta-kill, if you’ve found someone weak. Or at least ruin a regular player’s day.

Oh, so 6(ok 3) shot. thank you, and 100% crit rate, and at night.. And someone giving you might.

ClaviculaNox.8762:

Casia.4281:

ClaviculaNox.8762:

Casia.4281:

War. but the issue here is not, their rifle being better then ours. its NOT. ours is better then theirs. The issue is they can spam 17 stacks of might with ease, and then fire a 20k killshot. wait for CD’s (which is only like 20s) and do it again.

Kill Shot CD is 10 seconds
You hit average of 15 – 20k with it and with their updated Healing Surge It refills their Adrenaline 3 stacks
with10 seconds kill shot recharge

What I was talking about r the attack skills, And the way I compared it was because RIFLE has the highest Max. dmg than any other weapon

Engineer is meant to be with Rifle & not to be in close fight, R A N G E D
And if u r saying Blunderbuss is powerfull cuz of the bleed
Warrior “1” apply bleed his auto attack

And I still hope we can get some kind of BURST dmg skill if not something like Kill shot

The might stacking isn’t 10s. Kill shot without 14+stacks of might is more like 8k crit.

Throw wrench is plenty ranged burst.

I’m not talking about might stacking
I’m talking about Kill Shot Recharge, It is 10 seconds.
And Warrior can maintain at least 15 stacks of might 100% all time
Again, I’m not talking about buffs
I’m just talking about the attacks & their use

Well, then you are not reading.
Kill shot is not the problem.
Might stacking is. (possibly the 12 ALL damage buff with full adrenaline as a t1 trait as well. seriously 12% to ALL damage t1? of course, discharge…)

for great justice. 25s CD 25s duration aoe 3 might.
signet of might 5 stacks of might, 10s duration 20s cd traited.
signet of rage 5 stacks of might, fury/swiftness 30s druation 48 CD.
1 stack on weapon swap every 5s.
Could banner for more power, but huge cd, or just signet for prec.
sigil of battle can give +6, and/or bloodlust for +250 power.
This is where all the damage is coming from.

ClaviculaNox.8762:

Casia.4281:

War. but the issue here is not, their rifle being better then ours. its NOT. ours is better then theirs. The issue is they can spam 17 stacks of might with ease, and then fire a 20k killshot. wait for CD’s (which is only like 20s) and do it again.

Kill Shot CD is 10 seconds
You hit average of 15 – 20k with it and with their updated Healing Surge It refills their Adrenaline 3 stacks
with10 seconds kill shot recharge

What I was talking about r the attack skills, And the way I compared it was because RIFLE has the highest Max. dmg than any other weapon

Engineer is meant to be with Rifle & not to be in close fight, R A N G E D
And if u r saying Blunderbuss is powerfull cuz of the bleed
Warrior “1” apply bleed his auto attack

And I still hope we can get some kind of BURST dmg skill if not something like Kill shot

The might stacking isn’t 10s. Kill shot without 17+stacks of might is more like 8k crit.

Throw wrench is plenty ranged burst.

best I can imagine barrage vs a 2000 armor target with 8/8 crits is like 14.5k +2k discharge?

Well, I suppose if you stacked vul first, then threw it.

make a claim like that, going to need some proof/explanation.

What do engineers have that can hit 22k with one move?

War. rifle 1 is .4 direct, 6s bleed (.3 cond coeff)
Volley is a 3 direct coeff, 3s cast, on an 8s CD traited.
10% vs bleeding, 12% full adren, 5% force sigil, 10% scholar, = + 42.3% Note. adren is 3, 9,12% at each tier, only full gives 12. scholar requires 90% life. regen sigil heal helps with that.

As such, rifle 1 has a .5692 coeff with each full.
Volley has a 4.074 skill coeff. (4.074 over3s is very high mind you. 1.358, which is higher then engi rifle aa.)
9 auto attacks per 1 volley. 11s duration.
9.19coeff over 11s. .835skill coeff/s
+30% crit damage

R1 eng is
.65 base
5% vs bleeding, 10% rifle mod, 10% full end, 5% force, 10% scholar= + 46.7%
.9534 skill coeff
30% crit damage
.85s cast
= 1.121 skill coeff/second

What I am saying is, engi rifle 1 does more average damage then war rifle 1 and rifle 3 combined. So why exactly would I want that?

Also, aimed shot is less dps. only for the cripple.
Their vul shot is pretty good. 5 stacks of 11s duration on a 12s traited CD.
.5 scaling base.
Pretty good… except for the newly buffed sitting duck.
our net shot is now 2s immobalize, and 5 stacks of 10s vul. 8second CD.
So yeah, basically better then their vul AND cripple combined.

so they have a melee kb. not bad. same damage, same CD. theirs doesnt knock them back though. While yeah, it can be a pain. remember, it breaks CC when it does that. Honestly, ours is better.
oh, and we have leap. AND shrapnel. massive high damage melee aoe moves.

Killshot. now, they have the class skill kill shot. very very good of course.
3.25 at t3 base, add that 42.3 and additional 3% burst, and you have 4.76 scaling. very high. also with the pierce. crazy.
Throw wrench.
1 scaling each. static discharge .55 bouncing. so 2.55base, and 3.74 scaling.
And discharge on medkit every 15s,… surprise shot every7..

Yeah, killshot is nice and all. but 3s cast? Ill take throw wrench and discharge, thank you very much.

The next question is power. Engi has more scaling innately, I just showed.
But yeah, war does have more power options.
The 30% crit, and 10% full end build is 30 tools,which means no hgh, no H, and no B. 9 stacks of might available there. (if you go hgh, you loose 20% crit damage, 10% full end. and should swap scholar 10% as well, and gain 5% rune of str, gain 11-14stacks of might, and gain 1% per boon(which is 3-5%most of the time, perma swiftness/might), as well as near perma fury, and ret. way more utility, at some damage loss)
While a war can for great justice for 3, weapon swap for 1, elite for 5, and might sigil for 5. 14 stacks of might on call. they can also weapon swap with ease. meaning 5% force on rifle, but sigil of battle or +250 power bloodlust on greatsword. while then eng will only have out of combat swapping to bloodlust.

but the issue here is not, their rifle being better then ours. its NOT. ours is better then theirs. The issue is they can spam 17 stacks of might with ease, and then fire a 20k killshot. wait for CD’s (which is only like 20s) and do it again.

Rifle inherently does substantially more damage. 15% with each skill just by virtue of being a rifle vs pistols.
Then on top of that, skill coefficients, are higher on rifle.

This is especially a problem as pistols 1’s conditions were nerfed in beta, to the point of being very weak as well. Making p1 extremely weak both cond and direct. Until you get coated bullets, at which point, the direct can be made… ok.

rifles’ overcharged shot is invaluable in pvp to interrupt stomps(any cast) as well.

its hard to really justify pistol.
Static shot and glue shots however, are both fantastic.

Crows.2764:

Does sigil of battle actually work properly? Least for me nothing happens with the superior sigil when it’s on mh pistol. I dont get any might stacks at all. Sigil of str works but needs definetly least 40% crit and preferably major rune as superior is bit kittenty.

Sigils share cooldowns.
If you have str, and proc a might stack, then you can not proc weapon swap might for 10s. (or 9, whatever the cd is)

5% damage will stack with anything but another 5% damage.
+10 power will stack with anything but another +10 power, prec, cond sigil.
weapon swap, % on crit share cooldowns, and thus do not really stack.

Ideal is then, 5% damage, and sigil of battle.
(A 3rd +250 power weapon that you stack up, then swap out of, out of combat. )

you’ll are nuts.

1. grenades still stack 3 stacks of vul everythrow. barrage still does 8.
2. Sigils, now mean barrage, and shrapnel, and frost do 5% more damage.
3. 34% less g1 damage means what exactly? Less sustained dps. ok. versus what? A keep lord? 10 throws? a player? 2 throws while CC’d? The carpet bomb effect is still strong. as you can keep shelling out that damage. But the burst has only gotten stronger with sigils. (and marginally hgh buff)
4. blind and poison do direct damage. very minor yes. But some is better then none.
in a pvp situation, you ought to be bursting, and using these CC, debuffs, and relying less on auto attack.

Sitting duck buffed rifle.

How in the world would solo roaming be worse, when all solo builds got buffed by sitting duck, hgh, and sigils?

There was 1 and only 1 nerf. grenade1, which is almost entirely a pve nerf.

Silentsins.3726:

Noid.2871:

Hell yes, I do. For the awesome CC, not for the mediocre autoattack. That’s what we are complaining about. If all you care about is maximum DPS, then yes, this wasn’t a big nerf. But if you care about utility and support, then either that or your DPS did take a serious hit, because they require different weapon/sigil setups now.

Well, that and the same handful of “technically minded” people are all congratulating themselves on seeing this ‘nade nerf coming while ignoring why they were so prevalent: turrets are only nominally viable, gadgets are only occasionally slotted, toolkit trait is still bugged, elixir gun is only a role player, flamethrower is still bugged. This forum is full of some of the dumbest smart people I’ve seen in a while.

It’s a bit hard to theorycraft atm since the sigil change left some interactions that obviously won’t last through the next hotfix, but playing with the OP tPvP bunker build is the last refuge for me, until that gets fixed too.

To the OP: The graph is a nice start, I suppose; wondering about traits, build, numbers, ect.?

What interactions do you think won’t last?

Pannonica.5378:

Mif.3471:

tigirius.9014:

you people forget they nerfed EVERY KIT

No they didn’t.

Show me in the patch noted where they did:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first

It isn’t every kit, but “some of the kits” could be every kit minus one:

“Engineer Kit Sigils.
The Engineer now benefits from the sigils on their weapons when they swap to a kit. So, this means that you will have the ability to get sigil procs on your Flame Thrower, or Grenade Kit, etc. This means we had to tone down some of the kits accordingly, the biggest of which was the Grenade kit.”

Has anyone actually tested the other stuff?

Engineer rifle 1 is much higher sustained dps innately.
skills 3,4, and 5 are very melee locked.
But also high damage potential. Basically, only rifle 1 pierces, while the melee skills are aoe.
Throw wrench is 2.5 skill coeff with discharge and double hit.

Warrior rifle 1 is definitely weaker.
War volley does alot to make up for it though.
Traited for pierce, all skills gain from it. kill shot, volley, vul shot, cripple shot.
war can 2 or 3 sigil. A bloodlust weapon swap sigil to stack and easily swap to rifle with 250+power. While an engineer would need to swap out of combat to do that.
Killshot is 3.25 skill coeff.

A glass cannon warrior, can skill slot for 14 stacks of might, nearly 100% up time.

Both can trait/sigil/rune for about +46% damage.

omgwtflolbbl.7142:

One last issue with this is that you are applying % damage to condition damage. AFAIK, Condition damage is wholly unaffected by such things. Therefore, in your formulas where you attempted to use +5%/2x5% Sigils, your damage is overestimated. A fairly minor issue, but still something to correct. Just change your formula up a bit.

There is one other thing however that makes condition builds look much more convincing post patch with respect to this analysis, though. Condition damage is relatively static (depending on your, well, stats). Direct damage has a range that varies heavily. The 969 stat used here in this spreadsheet represents the ceiling for which the Grenade Kit can hit. Between my numbers and however the heck Cascia got his/her numbers, it’s something like 872-876 as min damage.

spammed attacks for like 200 attacks on golem. took max damage, and min damage.
Assumed 969 was max weapon damage, which gave the max hit.
Now had weapon damage, damage done, power and armor. So could figure out coeff.

Noted earlier that all coeffs are fairly simple numbers.
.5, .65, .33, .8, .125. etc. There is no, .3426 coeff.

The min I came up with, was like 871.5 iirc. So I am not 100% sure on that. I think its 872. giving an average of 920 for kits, which works out for tooltips. which are based on average vs 2600. (although sometimes wrong)

And yes, % modifiers do not work on conditions, but GREATLY buff direct damage.
30-46% is possible. +vul on top of that. which again, is only direct damage.

HgH buff is really quite small.
B and H are the only 2 you really spam. So +2 stacks of might.

Travail.7390:

Daigle.8497:

-snip-

but they should fix Fumigate to self-cure conditions.

Probably a good idea, regardless. That would bring it more inline with other cone heals, like the Elementalist’s Cone of Cold, which also heals the user.

-Travail.

I haven’t played my elem since beta admitted, but cone of cold certainly did not heal yourself then.

Would you like or dislike if picking up turrets acted like warrior banners?
Meaning. pickup=bundle.
It has some skills while holding. And basically means you can only carry one to next location.

Turrets in general need to gain from other traits.
Its an overall engineer flaw, other professions do not have.

Its probably the main reason we have trouble.
If I spec glamours on my mesmer.
Well, Im still getting ret, regen, and 30% damage buff on my phantasms. as well as reflect on focus.
If I spec reflect on distortion. class skill distortion, and sword 1 distortion both count.

Engineers.. Explosive shot is not an explosion for the explosives traits.
I think detonate turret is.., but rocket boots, rocket turret are not.
Rifle turret, doesn’t gain from rifle traits, or coated bullets.
They don’t get your passives, like vul on crit either.
Healing turret should get alch traits, flame turret, flamethower.

Engineers.. Explosive shot is not an explosion for the explosives traits.
I think detonate turret is.., but rocket boots, rocket turret are not.
Rifle turret, doesn’t gain from rifle traits, or coated bullets.
They don’t get your passives, like vul on crit either.
Healing turret should get alch traits, flame turret, flamethower.I feel deployable turrets should be innate.

Engineers.. Explosive shot is not an explosion for the explosives traits.
I think detonate turret is.., but rocket boots, rocket turret are not.
Rifle turret, doesn’t gain from rifle traits, or coated bullets.
They don’t get your passives, like vul on crit either.
Healing turret should get alch traits, flame turret, flamethower.I feel deployable turrets should be innate.The scaling issue is a +/-. If they are changed to scale, it will inevitably be a nerf to non-zerker builds. condition and vit/tough. Their damage is actually decent atm, in some cases.

Rifle, wrench, discharge.

I could have sworn that toolbelt skills were based on kit damage, when I originally tested.
however, recent testing has shown they are based on weapon.
So wrench will hit 15% harder with rifle, then pistols.

Also, blunderbuss, and leap are huge bursts in themselves.

Wrench vs rifle turret
First, toolkit, has pull, shield, and prybar.
While rifle turret is pretty bad. only useful for the blast combo.

Throw wrench 1 power scaling x2. 20s cd piercing
Surprise shot .5 power scaling. 10s cd.
16vs 8s with 30 in tools.

2 surprise shots for 1 wrench.
Static is .5 or .55. not 100% sure which. also not sure weapon or kit damage.
throw wrench 2.5 power scaling burst on 1 throw. surprise shot 2 power scaling over 2 shots over 16 or 20s.

static can crit. and scales with power. so standard power/crit/crit damage.
Note, firearms and tools gives crit and crit damage, so you’ll want power to scale off those “free” trait stats.

I would recommend sigil of force, and sigil of bloodlust. (build up your stacks, swap weapon)
I have not mathed out battle vs force.

If hgh build, runes of str is obvious choice. If tools.. not sure. scholar I suppose. But as a melee build, you will probably loose that 10% buff easy. not sure on a better choice atm. ill look into it.

wrench AND rifle is an option.
Or rifle, net, and flamethrower. napalm+2 turret blasts= aoe 6 stacks might.
Depends on how much you want burst, or sustain. A 30 tools can burst higher, due to 30% crit damage, 10% damage on full end, 10% scholar, 6 stacks might.
While a 10 tools, and 30 alch, has more stable damage. you dont loose your 5% damage on runes of str, as you have 100% uptime on might. 1% per boon varies, about 50% up time with elixir B.

it kindof already is.
you get precision and condition damage by putting points in firearms.

So you gear for power. to scale off that crit%.

pdv=poison dart volley.
pistol 1 scales poorly with both direct and cond damage.
with coated bullets it can scale well with direct damage due to double and triple hitting
EG=elixir gun.
EG 1 has a 4s bleed. so will do more damage then pistol 1 till coated bullets.

When leveling, gear falling behind your char level happens alot.
my 24 warrior, has a 19 rifle atm.
Kits, and condition damage scales directly with level.
Direct damage scales with gear. (and level based power.)

Lucky Charmz.5089:

Casia.4281:

well, we litteraly have only 2 single target weapons.
Rifle. and EG

and if you consider the pierce aoe. we have none. not to mention all the 2-5 skills are aoe.

The pistols=cond is a fallacy. The argument I was making was even pistol, due to coated bullets, direct damage, and scaling on traits, scales better with power.
So pistols are power and cond more specifically. To max their dps, focus on power/crit/crit damage, and gain condition damage via might, and other nominal sources.
Other. not engineer professions do a better job scaling with cond. 15 stack of confuse mesmers, warriors stacking 10s bleed every hit.

Post patch. Rifle is looking really strong for single target dps.
Rifle, tk(for throw wrench and CC), and discharge. Sigil of battle. The rest is up to you. 20 or30 alch, and 10 or 20 tools.
Sitting duck, 10% rifle damage, 20% cdr. (cdr vs range, vs blind is up for grabs. avoid the 50% on crit vul)
alch, 20% cd, 409. hgh if you go 30.
tools. discharge. 20 power tools, if you go 30 take your pick
note, if you go past 20 tools, swap to medkit from elixir h.

utility skills. TK.
elixir B if you go alch, net turret if you go tools maybe. some options here.
Elixir R no matter what. so good.

I’ve been running a condition damage/precision/toughness p/p engineer…I’m going to try out this power engineer, but I have a question.

Before, my main source of damage was blowtorch…it does massive amounts of condition damage (burning) (I’m talking PvE)…

With Power…would my explosive shot then be my main source of damage?

Burns with moderate durations do do well, in solo pve. As they do not cleanse it.
And you do not have to compete with other allies.
In dungeons however. you can not have 2 burns. anything over 100% uptime is lost damage. Long duration burns are bad due to this. overwritten, cleansed, or target dies. its wasted damage.
Also, once every 12s probably isn’t your main source of damage. Although it is decent for sure.

Not having coated bullets does change things, as you say, you are not max level.
Pistols without coated bullets, I would honestly say are FT bad atm. p1 is pretty bad, EG 1 probably beats it, again, if you dont have coated bullets.
do remember things like retaliation and discharge scale with power though, as well as wrench, barrage, suprise shot.

A leveling build that focuses on discharge, pdv, and static shot should be very effective though.
Strong gear.
10 in tools for discharge. get tk, rifle turret, and maybe grenades for barrage.

Rozbuska.5263:

Because here is only one man on the world who love RNG – engi developer. And we just w8 that Anet fired him and do something with RNG. Without that we have no chance.

And thief.
Really though, crit=rng. And with crit damage being a stat, the emphasis is on its importance as an Iwin stat, and not actual player skill in setting up damage.

RNG has no place in competitive pvp.

Frankly, this is true for crit as well. Its a bit disturbing really.

Tandy.4781:

Ok, opening up a PURCHASED gift you bought with the sweaters/socks/hats should NEVER give you one of the sweaters/socks/hats…..ever. Whoever thought this was a good idea needs some educating.

It should have a small chance to give you one of the items for sale, and then a big chance for either a small amount of the tradeskill items or some other frivolous item, but never the exact thing you used to purchase it with, and only one at that. Put near worthless items in if you want, but SOMETHING other than the purchase items for gods sake!

This is MMO basics 101. A lottery that costs 10 tickets and rewards you with 1 ticket back is something that makes no one happy, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out either.

Dude. that is exactly what lottery tickets do.
90% of scratch ticket" wins" are $1 back.

Real lottery..
Buy ticket for $1.
65% are nothing.
30% are $1 back.
4% are $4.
.9999% are $20
.00000000000001 are $50,000

165 power, 5% damage is almost certainly much more

hydeaut.1758:

Casia.4281:

But they multiply into each other.
10%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%

Have you actually tested that they multiply or is this from wiki?

Tested. ( ok, not ALL of them ) I had thought they added, previously.
Tested force, 5% bleeding, 10% rifle mod, 10% end full, and 1% per boon in mists.
As well as warrior % mods.

no one knows. Lots of more viable builds now.

zerker is better then rampagers. even with pistols. but we can work with it. try swapping at some point though.

pistols, are inherently weaker then rifles, but if you like them:
get 3 I think.
1 bloodlust. farm 25 stacks quick, then swap it.
force and battle. (7 stacks from str? if so, that and force is fine)
30 firearm standard,
30 alch, or 30 tools. the 1% per boon, or 10% end full traits are a must.

zerker accessories are a must. they are mathematically superior.
If you feel too soft, swap armor or pistols for a higher mit, not accessories.

Runes, scholar for poke, strength for more consistent damage. centaur for great utility.

Elixir U and R make you great in WvW without doing anything else. wall and res.

you have to use the multipliers, they change everything.

And fully as well. It does open up many build options. 1% per boon, 5% with might, 10% at max hp. 10% at full end, or 5% at not full end.. 5% force.
But they multiply into each other.
10%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%
rifle mod, bleeding, force, rune of str, 5% end not full, 5% energy conversion. for rifle.
+ 40.4% damage for rifle direct damage.
15%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%
deadly mixture, bleeding, force, rune of str, 5% end not full, 5% energy conversion for flamethrower
+ 46.7% damage for flamethrower.
If we swap to a 10% via end full, and/or scholar, a large impact as well.
This 40-47% damage increase does not effect condition damage, further reducing the burns relevance.

Vul will be even for both direct damage, although rifle does have much easier access to sitting duck.
And vul does not effect condition damage either.

huh….
remove weapon entirely. they do full damage, with no spread. as listed by tooltip.
steady weapon. lists 533. does 199 with no spread..
regular weapon 1k with spread.
yeah. im back to confused. the .8 coeff seemed to work with anticipated kit value.

850 with pistols vs 1k rifles. so yeah. weapon is defiantly relevant. kitten

who the —-- designed this?

why do they still do damage with no weapon?

szar.9054:

Panzen.4625:

I did a little calculation on the viability of flamethrower dps. I did it mainly because I wanted to mess around in matlab/freemat a bit so probably it is not 100% correct.

So how does it work?
In the attacked .txt file, there is some very crude code you can copy and edit with any editor and execute with freemat (free) or matlab. It is nothing that couldn’t be done in excel or whatever, but as I said, its main purpose was to mess around with matlab.
The sources used are also linked/mentioned in that file.
……

What it does not take into account: caused Vulnerability, increased chance for procs, %-increases for either weapon, other abilities than autoattack

My stats with rifle equipped: Currently 1918 power, 52% crit and 46% critdmg from a mix of soldier/knight items and 10/30/0/0/30 traits. Certainly not minmaxed but the mix has suited me up to now.

Why did you post this trash if you:
1. dont account for any of the reasons you use Ft over other weapons or kits. abilities, procs chances
2. your build for is all wrong. Fun fact the 25 point alchemy ability increases damage by 1% per stack of might

These stay out of theory craft if you arnt going to be serious about it. All you have done today is set the engineer community back months as idiots now can point to your useless misinformation and scream to the high heaven like it was fact.

no. might is 1 boon. 1 stack or 25 stacks. 1 boon.

Discharge is .55 I think, using kit damage, 920 average, 872-969
It can crit of course.

I also now realize I could have increased my grenade damage like another 20%.
I was already doing like 6k a throw.
But if I had been abusing some of this stuff. yikes.
wonder If I can get a 20k barrage.

Also, seriously. nail in coffin for condition builds I think.
I can’t really understand why they would do this. So ripe for abuse.
Crit, crit damage. Weapon damage*power vs defense+toughness.
exponential % modifiers. weapons with different damage values. come on.. This is stuff game designers should have learned no to do 20 years ago.