Guild Wars 2

I think some classes “Aka Warrior.” don’t have enough healing, and condition removal is too strong.

Sebrent.3625:

Daecollo.9578:

Actually rangers are quite overpowered in spvp and pve and even pvp in some fights.

Rangers are probably one of the best classes in the game right now, it just has a higher skill ceiling.

Make that “trap ranger” and you’re somewhat right, though overpowered is an exaggeration. They can tear up anyone that relies largely on melee range. The tanky beastmaster can do well, but it’s not on the same tier as trap ranger.

The main issues with the Ranger are the lack of viable utilities and bad pet AI. Look at the number of utilities that are actual useful. Look at the viable builds people are touting for Ranger. Then go over to the Mesmer subforum and compare. Mesmer isn’t a low skill floor class and that community is quite positive. There are several reasons why.

Ranger also has trouble in large battles with the pet dying quite quickly to random AOE.

Ranger also has trouble in sieges since the pet can’t do crap from the walls (900 range at best) and can no longer be sent outside the walls with Guard.

All classes have there little problems, that is also describing the problem that mesmers/necromancers face, except Ranger is a little more reliable because they can switch there pets if the going gets tough.

Pets are a lot more tanky then most other things though, and a lot of people just ignore them, even in large zergs.

SilverWF.4789:

Oldgrimm.8521:

SilverWF.4789:

Sifu.6527:

To summarize this thread:

Anet – You will get reveal debuff everytime now when leaving stealth. We did this because it is imbalance in WvW although we said we weren’t going to make balancing decisions based on what happens in WvW. Suckers!

D/D Players – wtf man, this nerf will hit us hard! kitten you Anet!

S/D Players – Oh stfu D/D players, learn to play.

D/P and P/D Players – Who cares…

P/P Players – Where the kitten are the buffs you promised me!!!

Until next patch…

and only D/D reliable for WvW.
S/P – PVE-stuff. Who will stay under #3?? Only mobs or noobs
D/P – too: who will stay in the #5? Only noobs or mobs.
P/D – condition thief, very rare and nearly useless for WvW
S/D & P/P – semi-PVE builds, rare too

So, they hit to the most popular WvW builds. Great.

How about just remove endless protection and regeneration buffs from the D/D Elems? This will be much more useful

dont forget about the boon hate, we can use their boons to our advantage

If special traited to steal boons. Dunno, but I dislike that kind of builds – there is a lot of mesmers to recieve all boons ^^

You have to be a condition thief to have boon steal, wishes our class mechanic tree had a stat we shared.

Sunflowers.1729:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

I don’t understand. You’re saying it’s ok for a thief to spam BS from stealth even when the opponent has taken the trouble/lucked out to avoid it once? Given that landing a single backstab for huge damage can easily determine the outcome of a fight, is it fair that a thief gets multiple chances to land it with no penalty?

Far from making it a “stupid skill”, it will promote skilled gameplay and weed out those thieves who don’t take the trouble to ensure that it lands by forcing the opponent to blow their CDs first. As it stands right now, spamming BS takes no skill and has no cost.

The damage is not so high to justify what you are asking.
A single backstab can’t determine the outcome of a fight, unless you are fighting upleveled undergeared characters.
Triple BS damage and your request will make sense.

Abilities that put out even more damage than Backstab:
Kill Shot
Churning Earth
Fire Grab
3 illusion Mind Wrack
100 Blades

Abilities that still go on cooldown if you miss/evade/block them:
Kill Shot
Churning Earth
Fire Grab
3 illusion Mind Wrack
100 Blades

So your point is?

Eviserate.

Caedmon.6798:

Barzah.8019:

After couple patch, I think war is still on same position which is good on pack and so-so on 1vs1

so-so.. ? i lol.

@Daecollo,Hell no.

Yes.

Oldgrimm.8521:

SilverWF.4789:

Sifu.6527:

To summarize this thread:

Anet – You will get reveal debuff everytime now when leaving stealth. We did this because it is imbalance in WvW although we said we weren’t going to make balancing decisions based on what happens in WvW. Suckers!

D/D Players – wtf man, this nerf will hit us hard! kitten you Anet!

S/D Players – Oh stfu D/D players, learn to play.

D/P and P/D Players – Who cares…

P/P Players – Where the kitten are the buffs you promised me!!!

Until next patch…

and only D/D reliable for WvW.
S/P – PVE-stuff. Who will stay under #3?? Only mobs or noobs
D/P – too: who will stay in the #5? Only noobs or mobs.
P/D – condition thief, very rare and nearly useless for WvW
S/D & P/P – semi-PVE builds, rare too

So, they hit to the most popular WvW builds. Great.

How about just remove endless protection and regeneration buffs from the D/D Elems? This will be much more useful

dont forget about the boon hate, we can use their boons to our advantage

1% extra damage per boon vs protection (33% Damage reduction after all damage is calculated.)

Stealth is going to be removed if your unable to attack anymore, so if you miss your backstab, there is a good chance that your going to get reveal anyways now.

Actually rangers are quite overpowered in spvp and pve and even pvp in some fights.

Rangers are probably one of the best classes in the game right now, it just has a higher skill ceiling.

All warrior builds start with 30 in vitality now.

What about S/P?

Elementalists were going to be nerfed, but they went into Mist Form and avoided the hammer.

Really close game guys.

evilapprentice.6379:

EasymodeX.4062:

seriously, we are talking about punishing thieves for repeatedly using their defensive ability here.

This may come as news to you, but thieves have more than 1 defensive ability in their arsenal.

Perfect example of a stealth crutch player who has no concept of dodges, blinds, or evades.

While you’re right, dodges, blinds and evades don’t trigger all the traits in the Shadow arts tree. It’s not the end of the world, but these changes will weaken our best healing and condition removal traits, if just a bit.

“Just a bit.”

Stooperdale.3560:

I don’t see thieves getting a rifle. A rifle is typically a weapon fired from a static position at long range for sustained single target damage. First of all, that’s the ranger’s job. It is also out of style for the thief. If you customize the rifle for effects then you’re becoming an engineer. It’s also too similar to our existing pistol skills since they are also single target with low mobility. Long range also voids our shadow steps.

I think some mileage could come from improving our existing pistol skills, perhaps adding some ‘light’ skills so that pistol is a viable without an off hand.

Rangers are flexible and durable—proficient with the bow, yet surgical with the sword. They rely on a keen eye, a steady hand, and the power of nature to slay their targets. Their loyal pets, which rangers tame and train, distract enemies while the rangers strike safely from a distance. As an adventurer profession, rangers wear medium armor.

Sorry that does not sound like the rangers job at all. How can you use “nature magic.” with a rifle

@ “A rifle is typically a weapon fired from a static position at long range for sustained single target damage.”

No, a rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder.

What we want is a “Sniper.” and that does not sound like a ranger at all. Sorry.

Improving the Passive heal by 80% (like it was before.) and making the activate instant will go a long way in improving SoM.

Also adding faster attacking or more hit ratio and lowering some to other thief attacks would go a long way to improving SoM.

It does not cure conditions like the other heals do, nore does it take you out of situations.

Brassnautilus.2941:

we will be like wars using only auto and adrenaline moves, where our adrenaline move will be producing stealth, whether CnD or BP-HS.

Warriors use Adrenaline?

Defensive Stance would have to have heals/condition cures built in then.

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

Sami.1560:

An idea: burst skills heal the Warrior for X% of the damage dealt, where X is the number of points you have in the Discipline line.

X doesn’t need to be 1:1 (i.e. 1 point grants 1%), especially not for AoE burst skills. For ST it could be alright.

That is not really sustain, that is pretty much burst and way too uncommon of one.

Warriors atm are way too much about burst, if you add even more burst to a burst class, what you have left is a class with little to no staying power. If it has little to no staying power you can pretty much leave it out of the fight like thief is.

This is what warriors mean’t to be, want good sustain? go roll a guardian and go next door please.

Warriors are defined to have a “Strong.” body. Warriors are begging for sustain.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Then why are you arguing about my change? Your hit-volume is low, the change would increase your healing a lot due to being able to heal every second and not relying on gimmicks or high hit volume attacks, not decrease it.

While it may theoretically increase passive healing, it would directly kill 100% of my ability to tactically burst heal with dancing dagger through my own and the necro’s shadow fields, use daggerstorm+mad king birds to total tank, sustain things like graveling mounds with a shortbow, use enemy groups ressing as a health fulcrum, and a number of other situational tools that my gear is actually set up to do so that I spend less time in stealth and more time actively bleeding, snaring, blinding, burning, and otherwise softening/finishing targets.

I don’t use SoM as a passive part of my play, but as a very deliberate and active one. That’s what makes it worthwhile.

The “gimmicks” as you call them are integral to the entire setup of the build and how it interacts with the rest of the group. The use of SoM, as I use it, is literally the centerpiece of the build, not an afterthought. They’re what let me tank in PvE, they’re what let me personally move zergs in WvW, and they’re what let me create highly effective zones of denial and being the generally debilitating toolbox that I am in these situations to the betterment of my group.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against SoM being made a little more desirable to other build types, but the cooldown and flat +heal removes all of the above. I really do think the active itself is where to put the adjustment, and I don’t know if you picked it up but I think changing that active to a short duration “super life leech” would keep the current use of the skill intact while making it more viable for use in more single target/evasive situations.

Honestly, the healing of it needs improved. How could you improve the heal without adding a cool-down?

MOBA def………..

Dasorine.1964:

Not regularly no and tbh im getting bored of this arguement your entire reason for the change is because you want a new skill for YOUR build and don’t beleive anyone else could find value in using it in any other build.

So no, this is a bad change just like every other change you’ve suggested so far.

Actually doing this to SoM would open up a lot more builds for the class, not just one or mine, it would create more P/x builds.

Dasorine.1964:

Except if the group doesn’t have any other major bleed/condition users, or if the group doesn’t have another thief with an IQ high enough to realize how to maximize utilities situation to situation.

Seriously people can optimize builds that aren’t yours and not every team contains condition users (its actually rare for me to be in a team with any other real sources of bleeds, even the few times there has been a warrior they’ve not stacked more than about 4-5)

Do you have a Warrior or Necromancer in your group?
I usually group with 2 warriors and a Necro, but all experiences vary.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group.

Actually our group includes:
Thief
Necro
GuardianX2
Ele

Our warriors rerolled guardian pretty early on and the necro and I actively avoid stacking condition duration because the bleed cap makes it completely pointless. In stead it’s overall more useful for dungeons/wvw in our situation to up our respective survivability and utility. We’ve essentially got two utility+DoT toons, a single pure GC, and two utility+raw damage. This is absolutely a case of “build adjusted to team composition” at the expense of “build for solo roaming.” There’s very little we’ve run in to we can’t handle with the “shutdown” composition we’ve set up.

Similarly, despite the horror stories I’ve heard of people running condi builds in DEs and getting bronze and whatnot I’ve never had problems with it.

Caltrops is pretty nice for PvE and some zerg fights, but it often gets replaced with scorpion wire, smokescreen, or blinding powder depending on the situation.

Again, your experiences may vary but the point is that changing the core function of SoM is not a good way to make it more useful for more builds/situations.

Then why are you arguing about my change? Your hit-volume is low, the change would increase your healing a lot due to being able to heal every second and not relying on gimmicks or high hit volume attacks, not decrease it.

Dasorine.1964:

Daecollo.9578:

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group, except decreasing the necromancers dps (if you have one.).

Wow… just wow… I was half joking when I suggested you think only your spec works and everything should cater to it but… that.. wow… your an kitten

I play an 80 necromancer and an 80 thief. I am just stating the truth, your not really doing anything for the group besides healing yourself.

However if they removed the bleeding cap or made a mechanic that helps it, then your build would be very very good.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

Against single or highly evasive multiple targets. Where superior heals already exist. Which are already less useful than SoM in large target count situations. The vast, vast majority of fights I’m in in PvE or PvP don’t ever fit this mold. I’m not asking for Withdraw or HiS to be adjusted so they’re better in this situation. SoM isn’t used much because the specs that get the best use out of it are lackluster in damage, and the vast majority of thieves roll specifically for the damage output. Compounded upon that is the fact that the class, due to its reputation and marketing, draws a largely disproportionate number of solo roamers.

There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is a bad change to SoM. Period. It turns a skill that’s fun and unique in to a skill that’s boring and passive. With increased heal with a throttled cooldown, you don’t have the OPTION of setting up a burst heal with SoM any more, and in stead you’re pushing the button for the burst, and you’re getting a burst heal that does… nothing but a heal.

This destroys the entire playstyle of the skill. For what? More faceroll uptime on every thief build? Churning out a thief-base equivalent of the signet warrior? Why?

Could SoM be made more attractive and have greater utility in its non-optimal situations? Yeah. It could. Removing entirely the ability to use it where it’s most optimal is the wrong way to do it.

Using high hit volumes for burst of healing while maintaining a low level of passive healing IS the core mechanic of SoM. Just as much as stealth is the core mechanic of HiS and the long evade is the core mechanic of withdraw. That’s why the active heal is pathetic. Not to just give you the finger, but because the burst heal on SoM is, literally high hit volume attacks.

That mechanic is exactly what makes the skill worth putting on a bar at all. Regardless of the amount healed. That interaction is precisely what makes it an interesting skill. Removing that ability from SoM completely destroys SoM. Heck, you might as well change to effect to “grants X health every Y seconds while in combat” because that’s the general effect with a 1s cooldown.

Kind of sorry to say, but Omnomberry Pie “made” that build, and when it was nerfed that build become “unviable.” or “less-viable.” in almost all situations. Its just not enough. SoM will not be improved either, even though it probably needs to be.

I’m still using SoM

and I never used omnom

because I don’t stack crit, and it was begging for a nerf.

and I still do just fine in dungeons, fractals, and WvW

because I actually built for it and my group actually appreciates that I do the jobs that I do with it

Expecting an omnom-crutch build to work without the omnom is, yes, completely not viable.

The build you use sounds like a bleed-stacking build that abuses caltraps.
It is good in PvE, except when you main a warrior or necromancer. If you have any of these classes, just assume your not doing damage, because your probably not due to the bleed cap, therefore your probably easily replaceable. I mean your not really doing anything for your group, except decreasing the necromancers dps (if you have one.).

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

Against single or highly evasive multiple targets. Where superior heals already exist. Which are already less useful than SoM in large target count situations. The vast, vast majority of fights I’m in in PvE or PvP don’t ever fit this mold. I’m not asking for Withdraw or HiS to be adjusted so they’re better in this situation. SoM isn’t used much because the specs that get the best use out of it are lackluster in damage, and the vast majority of thieves roll specifically for the damage output. Compounded upon that is the fact that the class, due to its reputation and marketing, draws a largely disproportionate number of solo roamers.

There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is a bad change to SoM. Period. It turns a skill that’s fun and unique in to a skill that’s boring and passive. With increased heal with a throttled cooldown, you don’t have the OPTION of setting up a burst heal with SoM any more, and in stead you’re pushing the button for the burst, and you’re getting a burst heal that does… nothing but a heal.

This destroys the entire playstyle of the skill. For what? More faceroll uptime on every thief build? Churning out a thief-base equivalent of the signet warrior? Why?

Could SoM be made more attractive and have greater utility in its non-optimal situations? Yeah. It could. Removing entirely the ability to use it where it’s most optimal is the wrong way to do it.

Using high hit volumes for burst of healing while maintaining a low level of passive healing IS the core mechanic of SoM. Just as much as stealth is the core mechanic of HiS and the long evade is the core mechanic of withdraw. That’s why the active heal is pathetic. Not to just give you the finger, but because the burst heal on SoM is, literally high hit volume attacks.

That mechanic is exactly what makes the skill worth putting on a bar at all. Regardless of the amount healed. That interaction is precisely what makes it an interesting skill. Removing that ability from SoM completely destroys SoM. Heck, you might as well change to effect to “grants X health every Y seconds while in combat” because that’s the general effect with a 1s cooldown.

Kind of sorry to say, but Omnomberry Pie “made” that build, and when it was nerfed that build become “unviable.” or “less-viable.” in almost all situations. Its just not enough. SoM will not be improved either, even though it probably needs to be.

Dasorine.1964:

pvp is not the entire kitten game, Im sick of games being balanced around pvp and thus destroying it for many people.

And bleeds, if set up for it, are great against pve bosses, thats why condition builds exist.

Eh… my Warrior alone puts 25 bleeds on the target, and hes power specced, and groups usually have more then 1 Warrior.

I don’t even play my necromancer anymore, because I pretty much get my damage taken away by other classes, because of the caps.

ensoriki.5789:

What I’m trying to figure out is, if you’re fighting a lone boss when you know a heal is meant for hit volume.
Why you didn’t swap out your heal for the situation?

Im wracking my head on it, but it’s not computing. Like you knowingly limited yourself and blame the skill for you not using it when it is appropriate.
What’s it matter if your pulling 900 health total on 1 enemy. You shouldn’t be using it on one enemy, unless arguably you’ve got some caltrops underneath that kid popping up additional Malice procs.

That works, and thats cool. Except a lot of people in PvP don’t stand still.

With the cap on bleeding stacks as well, bleeds don’t really matter in pve against bosses.

Dasorine.1964:

again thats YOUR build, what works for you wont work for others and vice versa.

All skills are not equal, you will never be able to have all skills work equally on all builds, trying to do so will ruin not only the skill but the game.

What other build is there?
I mean, I just assumed you were PW, you never told me anything besides that.

Dasorine.1964:

except it wouldn’t, I already get way more than the amount you listed in a single target encounter with my build and way more in multi target encounters.

You mean it would bring in higher HPS for YOUR build, well guess what, yours isn’t the only build in the game.

I use S/P, in fractal boss fights fighting one mob, I usually can only hit one.

With my highest hit rate attack, I can only get “900” healing out of P/W with no healing power.

Because my attacks are a bit slower, I can only hit the target with my ‘1’ ability once every second, which is only about 100 HPS, but then burst with 900 again.

However, with the change, I would still get 2 procs out of it with pistol whip, which would be even more then 900, and still face the refire rate of the sword and get another proc from the next autoattack.

Dasorine.1964:

problem is for those situations there already heals, your basically taking one skill you don’t find that useful and making it like the ones that already exist.

As said I use it as my main heal skill in pve, this is from basic mob farming to fractals, with evasion and high burst hits I can keep myself up against all but instant death attacks for the most part.

The only times I swap it out is when I need the utility the others give (such as stealth and burn removal on HiS or the evasion and cc break of withdraw)

Just like anything it has its uses for some builds and less for others, but changing it to fit a build it probably wasnt designed for will only ruin it not improve it.

If you find its not working for you, stop trying to use it on a slow hitting build (only ones I could think of for thieves would be a backstab style one in which case why wouldn’t you use HiS that heals and sets up your next hit) you don’t use venoms on a non condition build do you? or do you want them changed so they do a big hit as well but conditions get half duration so that non condition builds can use em?

So why would you want it for this skill?

Honestly, the change would bring higher HPS in real fights.

DanH.5879:

Pragmatist.1349:

Fourthly, I feel that Traps are very lacklustre at the moment. I have used each Trap maybe five times in PVE and overall I find that the Traps are not worth the utility slots.

+9000, completely waste of utility unless it can affect multiple targets, even the shadow one is lacking the “instant detonation and give stealth” unless someone triggers it, will never use them in pve unless they can do some aoe or affect multiple mobs passing trough them.

Traps would be amazing if they were like a Kit.

Dasorine.1964:

well in pve you get a constant heal, when combined with rapid hits (such as auto attack chain, deathblossom, unload etc etc) you can take mob after mob without ever needing to stop to heal.

Throw in multiple enemies with caltrops, aoe attacks (death blossom, swiftshot etc etc) you get lots of healing, more than enough to keep yourself up against a reasonable group of mobs.

This was doubly so when you could have omnom pies triggering without an internal cooldown, with that combo you could actually stay in melee range on most dungeon bosses without having to retreat to heal up or such (unfortunately the pies got nerfed so are no longer that good for thieves)

The moment you put a cooldown on it punishes you for playing a thief who is designed for rapid bursts (burn initiative and back off etc) and it also heavily weakens on of the best skills a thief has for AoE situations as while you may have upped the healing per tick to make it about the same against a single target a cooldown totally stops it working on multiple targets.

There is absolutely NO benefit to putting an internal cooldown on, even if you up the on use heal and everything the ones designed for that purpose will still beat it while those situations that the SoM is for and works brilliantly for will be ruined.

Situationally, its very good. However there arn’t many situations as perfect as the ones you describe, yes you could cleave and get more and more, but thats why the heal itself is so low.

The limit itself is why its so bad, and also good.

In my situations however would make it a lot better for boss fights and PvP, where players do not stand still or glob up (unless they are bad.)

SoM would not really be ruined, it would actually be better for non-situational situations, like fighting a long battle, where you can’t get them in that cleave limit, the bigger burst heals would help a lot more then situational smaller heals.

@Popeurban
Yes, on gimmicks it is amazing, however gimmicks are also situational. My buff makes it less so, sure you could call that decreasing of the skills itself, but to be honest they will never make this healing skill better because of all the gimmicks. (which it needs to be better, right now its … just not enough.)

Dasorine.1964:

which one? how it nerfs or how its pretty ace in pve at the very least?

Both.

Dasorine.1964:

works great for me, I’ve basically use JUST it for pve since the beginning.

Putting internal cooldown on it is pure and simply nerfing it.

Explain how it does.

PopeUrban.2578:

Nope.

Signet of Malice is specifically designed to reward high hit volumes. Normalizing it as such simply makes it an overall worse heal than the other two rather than a situationally better or worse heal.

Thieves already have the best variety of unique heal skills, and all three of them are already very good at their intended purpose whilst simultaneously sucking when that purpose is not met.

• HiS: Awesome when you’re not revealed, kinda crappy when you are. Worse against CC if you haven’t traited for condition removal in stealth.
• Withdraw: Awesome when you’re not bleeding/burning/poisoned/conditioned to death, kinda crappy when you are.
• Signet of Malice: Awesome in target rich/high hit volume scenarios, kinda crappy against single targets/low hit volumes.

This makes heal selection actually important as a skill selection on a moment-to-moment basis, and Anet has repeatedly said that they want and intend for us to be swapping skills between fights based on the situation (similar to how all of GW1 was designed specifically for you to need to swap skills between areas or for PvP group composition.)

Asking for SoM to be good at something that is counter to its design just plain weakens SoM and actively removes rather than adds build options and combat maneuvers that are the sole reason it’s worth putting on your bar. You’re expecting SoM to “just work” rather than having to “make it work for you” and this isn’t how HiS or Withdraw work either.

I’m not saying what it wasn’t or was intended for, but by statistics alone not many people use the healing because its only good for those things, and the high hit volume specs and attacks are rather low.

A lot of traits back then were also designed for high hit volumes, however even they were changed as well to have 1-second internal cool-downs.

The thief isn’t what it was back in beta, its changed a lot since then, and our high-hit-volume attacks are not used as much.

The system I placed, does add a cool-down, but it also lets the thief have a viable build from using everything, and not just “some-attacks.”.

They want SoM to be a better heal, because honestly its not very good, but they can’t just buff the heal amount because of some of our high-hit-volume attacks. The internal cooldown will resolve that issue.

Bhawb.7408:

1 condition removal + 2 conditions to boons every 5 seconds is definitely OP.

Yes, thanks for stating what I said in the beginning. :P

Flumek.9043:

a dreampatch post, though a lot of the “in AND out” swaps could be balanced with internal cooldowns.

Its not like they are overpowered though, compared to what other classes recieve.

However your right, adding a 10 second internal CD to some would be good, especially to the cleansing ones.

ensoriki.5789:

DanH.5879:

let make me clear:
i do NOT agree that my whole “Shadow Arts” trait line to be useless for 4 seconds every time i come out of stealth not breaking it via attacking, reduce revealed to 1-2 seconds and MAYBE we have a deal

There are 4 traits in the shadow arts line that do not care at all about stealth.
“Whole Shadow arts trait line” is false.

Master of Deception
Slowed Pulse
Power shots
Leeching Venoms
Venomous Aura.

Whole line? Please do not lie hombre.

Master of Deception – Really good, because deception is one of our best skills.

Slowed Pulse – “Ok.”, but too long of a cooldown to be worth it.

Power Shots – Worthless, Short Bow is mostly condition damage, and its not worth 20 points to get 5% damage. Why would you invest 20 points in the stealth tree for a non-stealth weapon? The Power tree offers far more % damage and power as well.

Leeching Venoms – Worthless. (lol venoms, Little to no healing…)

Venomous Aura – Worthless. (lol venoms, lol 300 range.)

Thieves are kind of bad in SPVP. Don’t use Frenzy in PvP.

Eduardo.4675:

OMG!! Another one of daecollo!! Its exactly the same domages HS does nowadays, but now we dont need to get target to <25%!! It only needs the target to be far far away!! LOLOL!! OMG!! All the domages are turned upside down from what we have now. Ahahahah!! If it was already easy to HS spam them to death, now its gonna be brilliant. And btw, your dancing dagger was given a 2.0 skill modifier below 50%, when HS now its the same but below 25%. Do you even consider what your doing , mathematically, when you think this through?? Enjoy this: target is far away, i HS to him dealing massive dmg, than i switch to DD and kill him with 2 more hits at the most. And lets not even consider spaming heartseeker to move across the map, now with double the reach… and initiative based. Me wants that in return for stealth nerf!! Seems only fair!!

We are suppost to get more mobility for the nerf to stealth inc soon.

It does less damage then autoattack if you “spam it.” you have to be far away for it to do damage, its more of a gap-closer now.

HS spam them to death, now its gonna be brilliant.
I’d Lol if they did, it wouldn’t do much damage at all if you spam it without running out of range.

RashanDale.3609:

Deathly invigoration: not sure about the cond-remove and the numbers. but it should definitely heal more than it does now
Furious Demise, Shrouded removal, spiteful spirit: so ppl can have perma retaliation and fury when they double-tap DS and dont even need ‘near to death’ for that? thats OP. especially perma-retaliation is kinda lame.

Death Shiver: tweak the numbers so it doesnt give perma-chill

Speed of Shadows: way too much.

Reapers Might/unyielding blast: not sure about the particular boons/conditions you chose, but its an interesting idea. but i wouldnt want to lose ‘vuln/might on lifeblast’ either.

Weakening Shroud: the internal cooldown should be lowered to 10 or completely removed.

Actually, Weakening Shroud could be changed to:

Weakening Blast – Life Blast bounces twice and causes vulnerability.
((Of course, this would almost completely negative the piercing the other trait causes, however it could be a play-style change as well, where the piercing trait is more for condition necromancers and the Blast Trait for power necromancers.))

Remember, it may be OP – but with the way Death Shroud traits are spread around you could not pick up all of them really, “Perma Retaliation.” may be a little OP, but Necromancers are an attrition class with some of the lowest damage in the game, and with the “boon hate” mechanic coming into play. It may balance out. On a Guardian which has so many more defensive boons and the ability to gap close and help allies, it was pretty OP, especially when they got 4-5 stacks of it.

Lowered chill amount, fury amount, retaliation amount.

Schroedingercat.7065:

Bhawb.7408:

I would remove the things that allow things on enter and leave, and keep them at just enter or just leave, otherwise the 5s CD death shroud would be far too strong as a boon tool.

I feel like the chill might be a bit too strong, and the heal seems like it would be very strong. I know elementalists have a similar ability, but I’m not sure that it would translate as well for us when we can go out of DS every 5 seconds.

I think ele can get stance swaps at 6-7 seconds with max arcane attunement? Or am I wrong

Yep, Elementalist can get a cleansing wave every 5-10 seconds depending on there spec, and they’re class does a bit more damage. However necromancers have more conditions. However necromancers lack there mobility.

The UI for death shroud is improved so you can see your health and conditions and boons. You can now be healed in death shroud.

Blood Magic
Deathly Invigoration – Heal in an area and cure a condition when you leave death shroud.
((Healing: 1,302 (1.0)?
Radius: 240)) [It is buffed majorly, to be more like elementalist.]
[Cooldown: 10s.]

Curses
Furious Demise – Gain fury for 4 seconds when entering and leaving Death Shroud.

Weakening Shroud – Cast Enfeebling Blood when entering death shroud.

Death Magic
Death Shiver – Apply chill for 3 seconds every 3 seconds to nearby enemies while in Death Shroud.

Shrouded Removal – Convert a condition into a boon when you enter and leave Death Shroud.
[Cooldown: 5 seconds.]

Soul Reaping
Near to Death – Death Shroud recharges 50% faster.

Speed of Shadows – Move 50% faster while in death shroud.

Vital Persistence – Life force drains 33% slower while in death shroud.

Path of Midnight – All death shroud skills recharge 25% faster.

Spite
Spiteful Spirit – Gain retaliation for 4 seconds when entering and leaving Death Shroud.

This is to improve “Life Blast.”

Soul Reaping
Unyielding Blast – Life Blast pierces and causes a random offensive condition.
Confusion (4s)
Burn (3s.)
Bleed (8s.)

Spite
Reaper’s Might – Life Blast and Plague Blast grant a random defensive boon for 10 seconds.
(Protection 3s.)
(Regeneration 4s.)
(Vigor 5s.)

I feel that these are very strong and would need toned down, but the ideas for it would be similar, it would make more play-styles for the necromancer, and remember. Even though they all look powerful, you cannot have all of them. We don’t have a 30/30/30/30/30 spec

Iove.3902:

savints.6281:

Iove.3902:

Outclassed it mobility by Elementalists? We are significantly faster. Though, they do posses great mobility as well. Remember, ANet is buffing out mobility even more!

Have you ever tried to catch one of those buggers, if they want to gtfo, they are going to do it, and there’s nothing you can do to stop them, at least with the d/d all the boons in the world all the time for ever set up.

Yes I have, I know how to counter the class too. Shocker.

#ImmobilizeSwordTooStronk also much more easy to catch when they aren’t running FGS.

Cure a Condition when attuning to water, Cleansing Wave to cure a condition, and then roll for another cleansing wave, curing another condition, then switch to Lightning and RTL.

lol@trying to CC him, your helping him by making him heal for more.

Also, they can cure a condition every 10 seconds with a signet… (however, I believe signets suck compared to there own skills.)

Ruggan.4102:

Daecollo.9578:

Ruggan.4102:

vespers.1759:

Ruggan.4102:

Distaste.4801:

This stealth nerf is absolutely nothing. Heaven forbid you actually have to think about anything other than damage stats on your thief. The ONLY people impacted this are the ones that abused stealth to begin with. Otherwise those of us that didn’t abuse stealth won’t really notice it. I run with blinding power, shadow refuge and even C&D some myself and I know it won’t be an issue. I already space my stealths out, I don’t want to be that perma-stealth abusing thief that has zero skill outside stealth. Of course I can see why those that do abuse it are upset, now they need to actually learn to play the class and won’t see huge numbers because they will have to pick up some defense.

Yea but you have to keep in mind… the stealth line is what controls a thieves condition removal, stun breaks, buffs, and heals. So basically, if a thief uses cnd comes out of it and gets hit by oooh i dont know… how about 3 ranger traps where the ranger has condition damage trait of oooh… 1.2k… so the trap ticks a very nice amount of dmg… well the thief now has to wait 3 seconds for their Hide In Shadows to be of use even though it isnt on cooldown… wow yea that makes lots of sense. Lets keep a Ranger from using Healing Spring for an additional 3 seconds past the cooldown of the ability just because one of their trait line abilities gave them regen… wow the fire that would be fueled then.

only a thief could complain that he has to be visible for an extra 3 seconds while dishing out 7k heartseekers and 9k backstabs!

if you die in that 3 seconds, you’re unpseakably awful.

Oooh 7k Heart-Seekers and 9K Backstabs…. In order to get off a 9k BS, for one… the thief has to get around a person to their backside and then actually land it while still stealthed. So they have to 1) go stealth 2) move behind an opponent who just saw them go stealth 3) Hit Back-Stab before stealth wears off and hope they hit. So this unto itself is a 3 key move at best…. So if a person who sees the thief go invis just stands there like an idiot… they deserve a 9k Back-Stab. Now, compare this to a Warrior who can deal out 12k in dmg with the push of a SINGLE button. Since Thieves have maybe 18k health…. some have 20k but the higher your health rating, the more you degrade the dmg output… 12k becomes over 2/3 of their health in ONE shot… So umm yea a 9k BS seems soooo overpowered doesnt it. Now lets look at Heart-Seeker. For Heart-Seeker to do any decent dmg, the target needs to be below 50% health at minimum, it has a defining animation making it easy to time a dodge to… and it uses init just like any other thief ability… lets not forget that the dmg to Heart-Seeker, Cloak and Dagger, Dancing Dagger, Dagger Storm, and BS have all been nerfed down by an average of 50% since Sept 9 2012… in those same number of patches, every other prof has received increases in the effectiveness of their abilities and weapon skills.

Thieves that do that kind of damage will not have 18-20k health.

They will have 10.5kish health.

Thats why i put in there that the higher the health rating, the more you sacrifice dmg output.

Well, they pretty much sacrifice over “half.” that damage to have that survivability.

WhiteRose.6934:

I think it’s a wonderful trait, makes it a lot easier to move around in combat and position yourself. Playing a backstab thief this trait is really useful.

No access to swiftness? Have you just started your thief or just not really thinking clearly? We have a signet for perma swiftness, swiftness on dodge, multiple shadowsteps, thrill of the crime (swiftness on steal), assassin’s retreat (swiftness when you kill something).

I think we’re okay on mobility Considering my two mains are thief and mesmer, I never have to complain about mobility haha

Sorry, but wasting your:

“Heal Skill.” – Used to heal myself when I need healed.
“Dodge Rolls.” – Used to dodge big damage so I don’t die.
“Gap Closer.” – Used to close gaps.

For temporary swiftness, is a horrible idea, the signet has such a slow cast time, you can be interrupted then completely locked out of your heal for 10 seconds.

It can happen. However it is it not practical.

Stooperdale.3560:

" I almost never use a doge roll out side of battle "

I use the dodge so often for swiftness that I now do it on my other characters even when running through Lion’s Arch, just out of habit.

Uhh… well out side of battle its fine, but if your in a fight and using dodge rolls just to gain swiftness instead of using them to avoid big damage then you probably arn’t a very healthy thief.

The problem is its all gimmicky, and hes right even if his spelling is bad. You never waste your bag-o-tricks for anything.

Elementalists possess much greater mobility and greater CC.

It only works on ‘3’ abilities, making it a lackluster to worthless trait.