Guild Wars 2

Yea, the dodge of choice is kind of a tough spot for S/P. On one hand, bound is one of the few ways you can get stealth with this weapon set. On the other, dash helps with soft CC, which is harder to overcome when you don’t have Shadow Shot.

kuritsutian.2987:

Personally I like this squishy thief meta :P …problem is hitting them tho … and keeping them in the battle… it’s like “whack a thief”

Well…it is at least easy to spot who rerolled from the previous FotM (bunker mes) to the new one (Thief) when you see thieves that think they can actually tank a hit or stick around in big team fights.

I could see S/P working in a world full of necros, but I’m not sold on BV and I especially wouldn’t agree with using Shadow Arts. I mean, you’re talking about burning 6 ini and 1 dodge just to clear a single condition with that trait line.

Impact Strike is just such a good elite, I can’t see taking anything, even BV, over it. This is especially true now that quickness rezzing is gone and it’s unquestionably the fastest spike in the game.

As bad as acro is at the moment, it would still probably work better than SA. DA would be another, more offensive, option as well.

Tragic Positive.9356:

rummy.4102:

I’d like to see that cleric bunker build Tragic, I tried a double staff (with the druid stun trait) build with the Crusader amulet and rune of the soldier. Seems like it was missing something though.

Was pretty good last meta.

My best bunker build post-shout change.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAnYWnMqAVsilsC+CCEtiFGBDupWV7qOhuRwpjpAc0CAncUROD-TJxHwAn2fQwTAAwpAAZZAA

It doesn’t have as much mobility – but that is not the key element of bunkering, right?
It has a huge lot of condi cleanse, it has a lot of survivability, it has pets with that damage spike, and has a lot of sustain.

I would have used Strength of the Pack – but I used it simply everywhere in every single build and felt like the bonus condi clear with this one and a bit of heal is just as worth it. You don’t deal much damage yourself – that’s what NM and Axe are there for to keep your pet mighted.

According to playstyle – there are adjustments that could be done better. But as a template – this would be the magic.

Umm…you do realize that you’re running Strider’s Defense on a build using ranged dps weapons, right? I mean, you have 1 melee attack and it’s an evade, rofl. I hope that was just a mis-click or something…

I’m definitely liking this patch better. It’s still far from perfect and there’s some definite imbalance, but I’m just glad that rezzmers were nerfed to hell. Nothing was worse than a big bunker fight where a team gets carried by a mezmer that was next to impossible to stop from rezzing.

I really hope we get another mini balance patch to address the issues with certain classes (necros overperforming, mesmers and eles underperforming, etc.).

Yea…thief is in a pretty awkward situation. Without the AA buff, it would still be a trash profession for raids (worse than guardians). With the AA buff, it’s become the flavor of the month in PvP and it would have been just fine without the damage increase just from the changes to other classes and amulet removals.

Eh, I’ve seen a million different answers to the question of what thief build to run and what rotation to use.

Some people are saying that you do better dps by just picking up the Trickery line over DA and only autoattacking.

Well…the tough thing that kinda takes BV down a notch, even with the unblockable buff is that it still has a cast time. This means that while in theory, you could cut through things like Shelter, you most likely won’t on purpose. However, here are a couple situations where I’d say it’s well suited:

• When a guard gets low on HP, pop BV to make sure your finishing blows aren’t blocked.
• When a rev uses Crystalline Hibernation
• After a mesmer uses their block for the first time (they’ll likely cast it again shortly after)
• When a warrior pops their shield block
• The same situations you would use it before.

The last point is mainly a reminder that just because it’s unblockable doesn’t necessarily mean that the best time to use it is when someone is blocking.

Came here expecting Jerry Seinfeld, but just found another random rage-y forum poster.

iroh.2871:

Dahkeus.8243:

Honestly, this was the most balanced way they could have added DPS to thieves without rebuilding the profession and/or breaking the class in PvP.

This is the problem. If they would just split the specs, balancing would be so much better and easier. They wouldn’t have to worry about “will changing this break PvP?” That problem would simply evaporate! Yet for some reason they refuse to do this and are even getting rid of splits that already exist. Reddit Reply

Yea, but that would also make the game more complicated and not in a “ooh, this skill has an additional effect under certain circumstances” interesting sort of way. Instead it’s a “Ok, I learn not just this skill, but also the slightly modified version for PvP” dull kind of way.

There’s a reasons that devs in games try really hard to avoid doing this sort of thing. It raises the learning curve for new players and just adds complexity without a fun factor that probably won’t satiate players complaining about balance anyways.

honeybeeem.5469:

Here is a cc spam thief s/p build that has tested well. The missing amulet is paladin amulet. Power 2,050 , armor 2589 , crit chance 62.57% , 17,245 health. I’ve tried the glassier iterations and they aren’t as playable. The idea is to counterplay and lockdown while killing in a 10-15 sec timeframe.

It’s a high mobility 1v1 build that leans on steal and dodge to keep your buffs up. sword 3 is obvious, but you can also pistol 4 or steal to interrupt. Lots and lots of damage from impacting disruption here. Perma swiftness and it self stacks of fury in the 10s range.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVn0MBlOhFOBGmCkmiFsiqLAiuccu5v+u3LDugOA-TJBFABAcKAI4BAc9+DLcEAAA

In a world full of necros, I could S/P making a comeback and that’s a pretty solid set up for it.

This again?

Aidal.4901:

Strictly speaking for pve then, most rangers I know say the same thing, rapid fire then switch to gs, putting the ranger in the same situation as the thief, so strictly speaking for pve the system is not thief range is weak so much as all ranged attack systems are weak.

Not debating your point just clarifying it further

^ Yea, even rangers, who are often shown to be the main bow-wielding class, are handicapped if they use ranged weapons for anything more than an opener to a fight.

I think eles and necros are the only classes that do decent ranged dps (since Burnzerk was nerfed). Engis can count for that to some degree, but they’re a bit more of a mid range dps since they need to be very close for many of their good attacks.

Well, here’s my 2 copper on the ranged vs melee debate:

Yes, ranged should have a drawback to offset the advantage of a greater tactical area. However, I don’t think that this should just be done by lowering its damage.

The reason is that ranged weapons instantly become completely useless in PvE compared to melee when they are made lower damage. I mean, sure, you can run around with P/P in PvE because you like playing cowboy, but in any meaningful content, you’re essentially making the group slower and forcing more time against boss mechanics when you pick something like this over D/D or staff.

There’s other ways you can balance ranged dps, but ANet has decided to take this as it’s philosophy, which is fine for PvP, but for PvE is pretty much a guaranteed handicap.

Oh, and regardless, pistol and short bow should still get a dps boost on AA just because they were already far behind staff/dagger/sword AA dps and are now just even farther behind.

Yea, I’ve been playing with this lately. The burst is great, but it does seem to hurt roaming capabilities and sustain against condi classes…

Also, I forgot what it’s like to be immobilized, lol. Gotta rely on shadow steps more for when that happens.

Galandil.9641:

Ghorman.1368:

Is there an add-on like a DPS meter? how are you guys measuring it?

http://www.gw2dmg-meter.de/

Yup, that’s what I used.

Here’s some quick notes of my feedback:

• Warriors still need more sustain
• Mesmers need a bit more buff somehow…
• New shatterer fight is great!
• Loving Tyria gliding!
• Thief changes really help them be competitive in PvE!
• Guardians still need help in PvE. Maybe PvP too.

Yesterday dropped a big balance patch that changed a lot. Honestly, things aren’t looking good for warrior, but so far high dps rifle builds and potentially a support-based shout bow build are likely candidates for viable builds. Check out the warrior sub forums for builds like these.

nacario.9417:

Shout longbow ranger still lacks condi cleanse though, and even if they were druid theyd have to invest in glyphs and condi removal on AF, making once again shout less used except heal and the elite. It would still fill a niche role, which the longbow ranger always have been, but yes more viable now if reflects are less present.

Eh, not necessarily. I’m thinking MM/WS/BM, which would bring Empathetic Bond and Shared Anguish. Have I tested this build? No. Could it suck? Maybe.

Just pulled out the dps meter and did some testing. Backstab is still certainly a dps boost.

With zerk amulet and basic meta build, I did about 6.4-6.5k with AA alone. With backstabs, it was around 6.8k.

reikken.4961:

Backstab doesn’t actually increase dps anymore. The after cast delay is enormous. You may as well just auto.

Is this also taking into account CnD + the power from revealed training?

Eh, idk, the Staff vs D/D still seems to be contested. I mean, even pre patch, the consensus tended to say to go with Staff only when you could reliably land all hits of Weakening Strike. MetaBattle put staff as the default weapon with D/D as an alternate, but Nike from DnT advocated D/D more as a primary weapon.

So far, it sounds like the staff and dagger got a pretty equal boost to AA damage and I’m not sure there’s a big difference between how much AA was involved in the rotation of either weapon set.

edit Also, to clarify, D/P is pretty much a PvP weapon set. D/D does better DPS and S/P does better utility in PvE.

Narayana.1485:

Dahkeus.8243:

Narayana.1485:

Well as an elementalist, I feel that a reroll or a 3 month break is in order.
Everything hits too hard, splashes to many aoe conditions, or aoe CC’s too long or to many times for any offensive ele build to be close to viable, there’s just better options. Elementalist right now feels worthless.

If you’re that inclined to embrace self pity, go for it. However, I can guarantee you that playing PvP a week or two from today will feel totally different from playing PvP today. That’s pretty much been the case for every balance patch since this game was released 3 years ago. It’s about as guaranteed to happen as forum QQ like this is guaranteed to show up regardless. =P

@ Serious Thought: Yup, pretty much. Story of thief: Playing dagger – “Omfg, spam 2 more! Noob!” Playing S/D – “Omfg, spam evade more! Noob!” Playing S/P – “Omfg, spam 3 more! Noob!”

At least the QQ over heartseeker has died down in the past year or so…

Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re wrong I don’t know. What I know right now is that pvp is not fun for me, call it QQ if you want. The only tactic envolved is to try and destroy the other tesm as fast as possibel. Its feels like every duel or fight is an old pre specialization Thief vs Thief, and in team fights its chaos and when the dust settles observe the corpses and see who lost less. That to me is not fun.
Not that the Bunker meta that came post HoT was any good either, so I think I just feel disapointed of not getting a groove back.

Fair enough, but just take a few weeks off. I doubt you’ll need to stay away for 3 months.

WilnerGW.3275:

But how will work the Allies Aid trait on nature magic?

You will start to revive you ally then it will…teleport him to you??

Probably…but I’m curious:

If 2 allies were downed and you targetted one that was a little ways away and then started rezzing the other, would it teleport the other ally to you as well?

And yea, if you’re already running S&R, this would be a completely redundant trait.

Katoh.4069:

Serious Thought.5394:

Dahkeus.8243:

Hmm…as far as new ‘meta’ builds, it’s so hard to say since so many builds become meta not only because of how strong they are themselves, but also because of how strong they are against other popular builds. So far, the only clear winners seem to be necros and thieves. Assuming this, here are my guesses for builds that could become viable or even meta:

• Shout Bow comeback. The Mender’s amulet seems to be well suited for this build and this build is getting some positive feedback on the war sub forums. If condi necro really becomes popular, this could help shout bow do well, despite the nerfs it’s seen in the past.

• Condi bomb kit engi. This has always been a strong counter to thieves and now that thieves are back in the game, they may start to do more than just +1 and decap.

• Marauder Engi. Chaithh played this with some pretty good success before the soldier’s variant took over. I’m pretty sure he even used this to hit legendary during last season. This is a solid heavy dps build that seems to only have been improved from the class changes and should fit in well with a burst meta due to the high damage and invulns/blocks.

• Shout Longbow Rangers – I’m going out on a limb with this and this may honestly only be something that works in solo queues, but with auras being nerfed and bunker mesmers being pushed out, there should be less projectile hate. The shout buffs also seem like they could be good enough to actually take now. If the thief gets strong enough, this is another strong combo, especially if “Sic ’Em!” is taken.

• Pistol Whip Comeback – This is another stretch guess. I still think D/P and Staff will rule the day, but a necro-heavy meta could make the high CC of a pistol whip build shine, particularly since the sword AA is in a better spot.

Anyways, those are my wild speculations so far.

Great. I am a s/p player. For a while. Should I brace for the “3 spamming nerd, go learn to play you slime ball” impact?

I used to play a bomb engi back in the day. I freeking loved it. I even played it with some tanky amulets, sometimes carrion, sometimes even soldier just as a decap and splash field guy. I hope you are right and this is viable again. NOt sure if putting points in scrapper would even be worth it though.

Yea, I know a lot of people miss this. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jebro proposing a bomb kit build in a vid soon since he’s always loved that kit so much.

Narayana.1485:

Well as an elementalist, I feel that a reroll or a 3 month break is in order.
Everything hits too hard, splashes to many aoe conditions, or aoe CC’s too long or to many times for any offensive ele build to be close to viable, there’s just better options. Elementalist right now feels worthless.

If you’re that inclined to embrace self pity, go for it. However, I can guarantee you that playing PvP a week or two from today will feel totally different from playing PvP today. That’s pretty much been the case for every balance patch since this game was released 3 years ago. It’s about as guaranteed to happen as forum QQ like this is guaranteed to show up regardless. =P

@ Serious Thought: Yup, pretty much. Story of thief: Playing dagger – “Omfg, spam 2 more! Noob!” Playing S/D – “Omfg, spam evade more! Noob!” Playing S/P – “Omfg, spam 3 more! Noob!”

At least the QQ over heartseeker has died down in the past year or so…

Hmm…as far as new ‘meta’ builds, it’s so hard to say since so many builds become meta not only because of how strong they are themselves, but also because of how strong they are against other popular builds. So far, the only clear winners seem to be necros and thieves. Assuming this, here are my guesses for builds that could become viable or even meta:

• Shout Bow comeback. The Mender’s amulet seems to be well suited for this build and this build is getting some positive feedback on the war sub forums. If condi necro really becomes popular, this could help shout bow do well, despite the nerfs it’s seen in the past.

• Condi bomb kit engi. This has always been a strong counter to thieves and now that thieves are back in the game, they may start to do more than just +1 and decap.

• Marauder Engi. Chaithh played this with some pretty good success before the soldier’s variant took over. I’m pretty sure he even used this to hit legendary during last season. This is a solid heavy dps build that seems to only have been improved from the class changes and should fit in well with a burst meta due to the high damage and invulns/blocks.

• Shout Longbow Rangers – I’m going out on a limb with this and this may honestly only be something that works in solo queues, but with auras being nerfed and bunker mesmers being pushed out, there should be less projectile hate. The shout buffs also seem like they could be good enough to actually take now. If the thief gets strong enough, this is another strong combo, especially if “Sic ’Em!” is taken.

• Pistol Whip Comeback – This is another stretch guess. I still think D/P and Staff will rule the day, but a necro-heavy meta could make the high CC of a pistol whip build shine, particularly since the sword AA is in a better spot.

Anyways, those are my wild speculations so far.

Straegen.2938:

Auesis.7301:

Either Dagger or Staff will work just by spamming autos if you’re lazy (easy 19k DPS), but you can go higher by using actual skills (Backstab or Vault).

Both pale in DPS compared to Pistol Whip.

lol?

And I haven’t seen any serious, vetted dps calculations since the patch, but the logic of what Dinosaurs says holds up if that is the case. Unless some other terribly broken DPS build gets discovered, it looks like we’re one of the classes that fill the raid spot of “well, we got all the important stuff covered and now just need a few more bodies to fill up to 10 players”.

The AA buff for thief is actually a pretty wise one. If they buffed a weapon skill, this could easily break PvP since thieves can burn ini to spam a skill with no cooldown (historical examples are Heartseeker and Pistol Whip).

As long as the AA isn’t so strong that it’s no longer a dps increase to use weapon skills, you grant thieves an overall DPS boost without making them a pure AA spam, which seems to be the case.

They cpuld have also tried to add more dps by boosting traits, but there’s already a lot of pure dps increase from a lot of traits and that gets messy when you consider builds. The DA, and DD line are pretty some much the best PvP lines, so adding a dps boost here not only increases their sustained damage, but also makes the spike damage bigger, which is pretty big as it is now. The CS trait line is already bloated with about a damage boost on pretty much every trait taken. Adding damage to any other trait line wouldn’t matter since it wouldn’t create a net higher dps for any other build due to the opportunity cost of dropping a trait line unless they just added a completely ridiculous amount of damage, which would cause other issues.

Honestly, this was the most balanced way they could have added DPS to thieves without rebuilding the profession and/or breaking the class in PvP.

There’s a thread on the War subforum discussing a shoutbow build, which seems to be getting some positive feedback. Apparently the Mender’s amulet has worked well for this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/The-New-Shout-Warrior-Build/first#post5950517

Keep in mind that condi cleanse isn’t the only counter to this build. High CC can shut down necros pretty well and it’s also possible that people find enough viable burst builds to prevent condi classes from getting the sustained long fights they need to get the upper hand.

We’re not in a meta yet. The patch came out yesterday.

He’s just salty because they didn’t change portal to warn you when you’re at the wrong lord. ~.^

D/P with D/D being a close second. P/P would be third.

bbennett.7463:

Or even better. Use the staff and D/p!!!

staff 5 is almost the same range as shortbow 5 but staff deals way more dmg. Only downside is there is no ranged

It covers a 1/3rd less distance and, more importantly, it doesn’t shadow step, so you can’t do things like port to the second story of clock tower or any of the other major shadow steps that few professions have access to.

Here’s the main reasons I like D/P better than staff:

• Headshot allows you to lock down a target when you 2v1 so that your ally can land their damage. This often works better than just having 2 people damage since it prevents heals/escapes/cc/etc.
• Stealth allows you to decap more reliably. Without stealth, any aware player will see you running towards the node and will be more likely to cut you off before you get there. Stealth allows you to get to the node before you’re visible.
• Stealth allows for more escape. Good players will predict a lot, but there’s still a limit to what they can predict, especially if you don’t just keep running the direction of your HS.
• Stealth in general is just so good when you learn how to abuse enemy assumptions. For example, you can BP-HS towards an enemy in a 3v1 to make it look like you’re still pursuing them, but instead rotate out to somewhere else undetected.
• Stealth allows you to start a fight in your favor. If you approach a fight stealthed, you can land your first attack reliably, which can make a big difference.
• D/P has much better gap closers with HS and Shadow Shot.
• HS in general is just really good for low hp burst.

And personally, I just have never been a fan of how big and exaggerated the Vault animation is. I know it can deal some great cleave, but it just seems so obvious and easy to avoid…

Hey ANet, this guy can speak definitively on balance patch based on players experiencing it for less than 12 hours. He must be pro. You probably wanna hire him.

/sarcasmgiggle

Nova Stiker.8396:

vlad.4871:

it s first day ,if you don t like it maybe you should take a break.

I had expectations, not sure why.

Come on…it takes at least weeks for anything resembling a meta to settle. Often it can take longer. If you set expectations on what PvP would be like when it’s literally only hours since the patch has dropped, you really didn’t have a realistic outlook. Many people still haven’t even gotten home to try out the patch, let alone decided what builds they want to stick with.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Berserker_Staff

or

PopeUrban.2578:

Sagat.3285:

Still nothing about CiS and SRej in the same tier, d/p needed improvement why not buff that?

Because D/P isn’t the build that actually needs improvement, and never has been. The nerfs to the other classes were really the only buffs D/P needed. This dagger auto damage is just icing.

^ This. So much this.

Hell, just having rezzmers out of the meta is HUGE. Not only can a D/P thief now stomp faster than any other class (well, technically we were faster before if timed right), but we can also land headshots to kick rezzes instead of getting blocked with feedback.

I mean, if someone tries to stab rez and steal is off cd, you can still usually spam headshot enough to break through the stab stacks. Feedback rezzmers completely prevented this though.

Pretty sure this has to do with the complexities of client to server communication and the mechanics of the skills themselves. I’d be surprised if this was something that had an easy fix, but I could be wrong…

@Vornollo Thanks for the confirmation! (still at work, unfortunately, so haven’t been able to test)

Also, I’m seeing several people mention the 5% boost for sword from the acro trait. While this is nice, remember that there’s an opportunity cost with taking this trait. If you take acro, you’re missing out on DA, CS, or DD, which all give you more DPS than the acro line will.

From a PvE perspective where the utility from acro is generally unecessary, this puts sword in a pretty bad place. For PvP…I don’t think this saves the sword, but it’s at least a bit less of a handicap to your damage if you decide to go this route.

godmoney.6025:

Lyger.5429:

Dahkeus.8243:

Hmm..I don’t see the removal of the Black Powder aftercast that they mentioned in the live stream. =/

Aww great why does Anet hate thief having decent stealth….

For me the aftercast of blackpowder feels faster. Pressing 5 and immediately 2 feels faster than before. Maybe it’s just my mind playing tricks on me.

It’s possible that they made the change, but just forgot to put it in the notes.

Also, I’m wondering with all the necro changes if a heavy CC build may be a strong build for the meta. I may have to play around with a S/P Daredevil build…

With all the revive changes, something running with SA may be strong again as well. I’m predicting that Function Gyro stomps will be a lot more threatening than before and if stab on gyro becomes meta, stealth revives will be the best counter.

It’s a great change for sure. It may even make shouts meta…but with the necro changes, they’ll probably just eat through those boons, lol.

Aww, so they made “Search and Rescue” port your ally to your location. I was hoping you’d get an animation of your pet dragging their body to you. Mechanically, this is a great change, but as much as I shouldn’t have expected a new animation to be added, I’m still sad not to see this, lol.

Yea, I knew Burnzerk would get nerfed, but I thought they would just make Scorched Earth one fire field to prevent the double ticks.

However, from the way I’m reading it now, not only does this change prevent double ticks, but this will probably negate a lot of burns if you have multiple people using Scorched Earth on the same target.

Remember when hambow was considered the counter to necros?

Seems like they were thinking of this with the hammer buffs…but yea, I’m thinking they’ll need a lot more than this to be anything like the hambows of yore…

Hmm..I don’t see the removal of the Black Powder aftercast that they mentioned in the live stream. =/

Anomaly.7612:

Ahhhh, fond frustrations of WoW’s blink.

Yea, it took them years to “fix” that and it was still never truly fixed.

Hmm…so you’re sacrificing a utility slot and the ability to finish with Impact along with a 7% damage increase (by taking the phys cd trait) for this. Sounds like a pretty costly strategy for burst that’s easily countered by a stun break. Now, I doubt most people expect a thief to run fist flurry in the first place, but I would imagine that even if you nailed someone with this, they’d be make sure to break the stun next time.

Sounds fun though…and in this next meta, it probably stands more of a chance of working.

swinsk.6410:

So I took a fairly long break. Few months at least. Stopped playing shortly after HoT because thief was bad.

I noticed they might be buffing acro and sword aa.

Is this really enough? I started playing again yesterday and thief still sucks. I logged on necro and using my version of burn frost I was #1 on hot joins.

I logged into thief after relearning the controls again and was mid way or at the bottom in points. Thief just sucks… Why play thief at the moment? Which is the reason I stopped playing because thief is my class and without it the game is boring to me…

Do we really think from what we have in the limited notes from the stream will be enough?

Thief will always be a profession that’s harder to play when you come back from an absence since it’s a squishy glass cannon that relies on understanding the enemy to some degree.

It’s not a great meta, but it’s not as bad as people make it out to be either. Either way, we’ll see what it looks like later today…