Guild Wars 2

Winespring Brother.2970:

Would sure make it easier to find the real mesmer or stealthed thieves

It works on phantasm/clone backs outside of PvP. Problem resolved.

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/530405525239136256

Anyone see this yet? Lots of speculation on Reddit and Twitter about Rytlock going to the mists, taking names[Kormir’s], and covering his eyes while walking through fire all zen-like.

Also, the added speculation that he went to the mists, learned to use his ghost-controlling sword, and thus became a ritualist[who were required to wear blindfolds in the first game] in all his awesomeness.

Thoughts?

From this recent patch, we learn from the Priory that each dragon has two spheres of power/influence which they rule over. Mordremoth is “Plants” and “Mind”, while Zhaitan is “Shadows” and “Death”.

Would anybody like to speculate on the specific spheres of the other dragons?

…to be invited to the Mesmer Collective. Yep, I haven’t been invited “yet”. Hope for the future, and all. I mean, maybe that just happened to overlook the #1 Commander of the Pact. No biggy, no biggy at all… Q.Q

Mesmer[won’t happen, but for fun]:

-Warp: This skill creates something akin to a portal entrance and exit, with a different animation/skin where maybe it shoots lightning/light from the ground so it can be seen above. This would essentially force the opponent to teleport when they pass through, being put on a 4 second debuff timer that stops them from moving back through until it wears off.

Benjamin.8237:

Power Block : 100% chance on interrupt to put all enemy skills on a 1scd.

Imagine this, you get the daze and for 1 second they can’t use any skills, that’s strong enough to warrant a GM trait but not game breaking, after all they can still move so it’s like a weaker stun.

That’s the same thing as a normal daze…

Ross Biddle.2367:

Dondagora.9645:

How about it strips stability on CC along with the normal effect, removing the ICD? While we have a good amount of boon-strip, it might make it more viable if it can just go straight to stability, ignoring other boons[unless blocked by Aegis]. However, it does not interrupt+strip stability, but strips stability instead of interrupt so long as stability is there, and super-rupts so long as there’s no stability.

• Power Block: Remove target stability on disabled. Enemy skills that you interrupt have an increased CD.

This treats stability like defiance to Mesmers with Power Block. Something I’ve often wanted to be the case. I suppose attaching it to a trait is a less universal approach to having it in the game.

True, but how about this: Traiting Power Block will double Defiance Stacks removed, helping mesmers to specialize in PvE control.

Scylla, Ceto, Cetus

These are greek sea monsters[Ceto is Greek Goddess of Sea Monsters] which could work. The C’s in Ceto and Cetus could be altered to versions with an S.

How about it strips stability on CC along with the normal effect, removing the ICD? While we have a good amount of boon-strip, it might make it more viable if it can just go straight to stability, ignoring other boons[unless blocked by Aegis]. However, it does not interrupt+strip stability, but strips stability instead of interrupt so long as stability is there, and super-rupts so long as there’s no stability.

I don’t find it two OP, though it is annoying. And given their change, I don’t think that the “too many rangers using longbow” means “rangers using longbow is bad”. Hopefully they buff other weapons instead and slightly tweak longbow or other classes to better handle this new ranger meta, but not nerf the meta itself.

Kazuto.2798:

I guess I see what you mean, I was just thinking about how sometimes my opponent is too tunneled on me that they don’t do anything about my spawning phantasms and I manage to get three up at the same time. At that point I want to keep them. I like using DE for the confusion (not the condition) it can cause by having clones and for reasons such as what you stated as well as clone death traits.

The particular situation that caused me to think about this is that I had managed to get 3 iBerserkers up on an enemy and I wanted to use #2 on greatsword for some might and deeps, but then if I use that I’d lose a iBerserker.

Well, you already 2 zerkers, so maybe the might bouncing to them will cover a bit until you can get a third zerker up?

If you have three, then you’ll likely have the pressure up to afford spending one for whatever reason until you can get it up again. That’s just my opinion, but it’s still situational and a risk-gain scenario you should think about when creating the clone.

xDudisx.5914:

Is there any mesmer that still doesnt roll shatter? hahaha
90% of the mesmers are using this with a few changes, because any weapon works in the class. Just need clones + insta cast shatter skills

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Double_Ranged_Shatter

I don’t roll shatter. I’m a Lockdown Mesmer, one of two currently viable stand-alone mesmer builds[Shatter, Lockdown], one of four existing mesmer build types[Shatter, Lockdown, PU, Boonshare]. The latter two are not used a lot in PvP because they are rarely useful without a lot of team prep.

Once again, maybe ask questions before making statements, yeah?

xDudisx.5914:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

The only reason I can think that this thread hasn’t been moved/locked is because the mods are ungodly amused right now by how silly this all is… Or they’re doing a case study on experienced players opinions versus inexperienced.

Oh now you think that you know what the mods think. I see who is the troll here. Please don’t flame the topic.

Firstly, you have no idea who you’re talking to, as Chaos is one of the most prestigious, and reasonable, mesmers in the community, meaning if you wanted to understand at all where mesmers were coming from and the logic of shatter, you should be talking to him instead of disregarding his criticism of your forum-going. Secondly, you didn’t rebuke his claims of you ignoring other claims at all, which might be in your favor if it is at all false. Thirdly, there’s that little bit at the beginning that stated “I can think of”, showing that, just as you’ve done, it is just an opinion.

Don’t care who you are, but disregarding Chaos Archangel is not something you should do lightly. This also applies to a few other mesmers, including Fay and Stickerhappy. They are very reasonable people if you talk to them using facts, evidence, and modesty in opinion.

DejaVu.9825:

WhiteRose.6934:

DejaVu.9825:

1: 2 vs 1 mesmer … as soon as an enemy is downed = Moa on the other (possibly by invisible) to finish the target downed easily.

2v1 mesmer? Then you got outplayed sweetheart and need to deal with it. The mesmer was fighting against 2 players and happened to have an elite ready to handle the situation. Same can go for any class that has any CC available (or stealth) to secure a stomp.

DejaVu.9825:

2: Invisibility -> Moa -> shatter combo ….. target in crisis.

So a mesmer used either Decoy, Veil, or Torch to go invis…and you didn’t think to prepare yourself? What about ranger with LB 3->4->2 ‘target in crisis’? What about Thief with stealth-> Venom-> Backstab ‘Target in Crisis’?

Deal.

DejaVu.9825:

3: Moa on the tank ….

What’s a tank? Is this WoW?

1: Never seen CC from 10 seconds… Come on admit it, Moa manages PERFECTLY situation… without considering that you just stability against CC, against invisible just do AoE damage or have some CC to be used to prevent the stomp.
2: The shatter combo does much more harm of Backstab
3: Guardian defenders on pvp. Or any profession support from boredom, so kill it quickly.

Sorry English use google translator.

With #1, I’d like to say that moa is a little different from other CCs in that it does not leave you helpless, though it removes your usual skills for the 10 sec duration. It gives you plenty of damage-mitigation and even attack skills. In such a way that it is a very long CC, but not something like a 10 second stun/daze/chill/immob. Because it is not as unforgiving as the CC just listed, it also cannot be removed or avoided with stability. However, in turn, you can instead block/blind/evade this CC, which can be seen as the equivalent as an active stability.

As for #2, the invisibility should be some warning to defend, however even so a mesmer and a thief’s burst is very different in application. Thief is capable of using heart seeker and their AA very quickly together, making their combo-burst much quicker higher in a shorter amount of time. Shatter combo, however, requires some preparation over seconds in order to perform large bursts. This gives the moa, with moa skills, time to dodge or flee from the burst range.

As for #3… well, using moa on a guardian or bunker/support is just strategy. It’s a scenario where moa is made the most of, just how Supply Crate is used to do a bit of burst-recap action on a point, or how Lich is used in big fights to blast multiple opponents away at once.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Dondagora.9645:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Dondagora.9645:

Maybe add this to Lyssa’s Grimoire?

What’s that, Dondagora?

The most extensive mesmer guide yet[I believe], stickied in the forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Lyssa-s-Grimoire-The-Mesmer-Handbook

Thanks!
I’ll ask him to add it, I guess?

Yep!

Terrorsquad.2349:

Dondagora.9645:

Maybe add this to Lyssa’s Grimoire?

What’s that, Dondagora?

The most extensive mesmer guide yet[I believe], stickied in the forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Lyssa-s-Grimoire-The-Mesmer-Handbook

silentnight warrior.2714:

Make it a visible projectile that can be reflected. Give it another color and size and the caster can be in stealth.

Then it will became a high risk/reward skill.

The risk is losing moa on a full CD right when you need it, making it very unforgiving. You might not have understood, but a good mesmer in sPvP does not spam moa randomly, using it for very specific advantages and scenarios. For instance: Necro pops a Lich Form. Mesmer tries to Moa. This goes two ways: Moa works, Lich is averted, Necro either lives or dies depending on his skill with moa [OR] Moa fails, Necro kills Mesmer and team.

Therefore moa is like a tactical weapon, a very expensive EMP to lockdown an opponent in essential times of the match. If the moa fails, however, it means that the other team keeps their advantage in the fight and will likely put the mesmer’s team on the losing side or create a prolonged battle.

Thus, moa is high-risk, for the risk of failing at these crucial moments is high, and high reward, for the reward for succeeding in these crucial moments is high.

Many people don’t understand how moa is a very tactical skill and not, as one forum-goer said, an automatic “I-win-button”. I hope this was useful for you.

Swish.2463:

I’m sorry but as a Mesmer main and someone who spends a lot of my time in team que or tpvp with a thief on my team..

what you’re stating is not that Moa is OP

What i understood is that you find Stealth and useless tells/animations to be OP.

So you want just Moa to cause a loss of stealth while casting.. what about laying down turrets as an engie or any other action you might take while you yourself are under the effect of stealth?

I would call that fair trade, in fact lets break the thief class entirely just to round this all out, no one can use any skill in stealth because using skills while hidden is OP.

Now lets focus on poor tells and crap animations, funny enough you play a class that is caulk kittenin full of these. Maybe engi kits also need a sign or marker above yoru head as well as an added casting time to warn everyone in the area that you are about to use a Bomb kit or Grenades?

actually lets just do this to everyone’s elite skills across the board so that I as a Mesmer get fair and equal warning when you want to drop that Supply crate as an asura.

As a player on a class that only just barely found some footing in the Meta again (with a 2 year old build mind you) It’s a bit … well.. whats a good word.. stupid, to see people point at our Mechanics and Elites which have been complete NON ISSUES for a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.. Laughable even.

As a player in general, I agree that Stealth is a bit of a broken aspect of this game. and that some casting animations need serious improvement.

Next time you want to properly discuss it, maybe pull examples from multiple classes including your own tho. People might be more inclined to listen rather than spew back two year old responses to two year old complaints.

Calm down. He’s not making outrageous nerf suggestions, and he’s being reasonable, unlike other forum-goers.

I agree with some of your points, but state them in a respectful manner so that they aren’t outright offending him and inciting “hate” in this thread.

Napzor.8275:

As i said, i don’t want to turn this in to an argue, but all in all, looks like you haven’t played with or versus a proper team with good mesmers and thieves. Well, at least i tried. It’s not about taking that oponent on a respawn with moa, it’s about the snowball potential of the comp that exceeds the limits with moa. And you all have to agree that it’s not funny that you get a stealth opener, then thief removes aegis and you get a moa at the same time. No response, no counter. From then on the game is a 5v4, so you either lose a node, or you all die and lose a node. Even on a 180 sec, it’s too much. And reveal buff is so minor yet gamebreaking thing, that i dont see the hussle about it.

Ah, I see what you’re saying, but think about this: There was a counter, it was counter-countered by the thief, and thus the moa succeeded.

Not going to say anything on the reveal thing right now, though, since all I wanted was to point the above out.

Maybe add this to Lyssa’s Grimoire?

Hm, I’m with the other posters, however I admire your work here. Making the moa cast a reveal might help shut a lot of people up, but the fact that moa is still, despite how the QQ’s feel, a 180s elite with various ways to negate already should balance out its strength and the fact that it can be stealth-casted with the fact that its failure would mean a full CD and no benefit to the mesmer. Basically high-risk/reward scenario.

However, if moa didn’t have the number of negations which it does, I would definitely support your perfectly reasonable change. Sadly, when there are elites like Supply Crate and Lich which are equally strong, yet less frustrating emotionally, which have none of the moa’s weaknesses in that a blind or block or dodge does not simply ignore the skill completely and make it unusable for three minutes, the change would not put all elites on the same level.

How about changing it from directly healing the mesmer to healing allies in an AoE around the illusions shattered? Or healing the mesmer and nearby allies?

This might help push support-type mesmers a bit more, making the burst-damage of shatter into something like a burst-heal.

Also, a bit of a buff in the amount of healing wouldn’t hurt either.

What are your ideas on this or on the trait’s current state in general?

TheLastNobody.8319:

Topic title pretty much, this always has confused me when fighting mesmers. I mainly play necro. Main reason I’m asking now is because I fought a mesmer a couple weeks ago who was using, least according to a friendly mesmer, was a PU build.

So basically, is it wise to destroy the clones as fast as possible with AoE, or just try and identify the mesmer? What would the consequences be from destroying the clones? Sorry for asking this but most other classes I can figure out if I fight long enough, but still don’t understand what’s the best course of action against mesmers.

Don’t melee the clones, at least, or kill them close to you if you want to avoid the conditions at all costs. You can risk-reward it and say that less clones to deal with will be worth the bleed, weakness, etc. The AoE around them isn’t all that strong, but can stack if you just try to kill them all constantly.

Definitely try to identify the mesmer if you can. Mesmers have limited stealth, so unless this guy is spreading his stealth out and staying in the open for bits at a time, he’ll run out within 20 or so seconds and you can burst or stun him down.

There are some issues with full mesmer teams, but there are also strengths. I believe that once you sort out all the strengths and weaknesses, you should focus purely on playing on the mesmer’s strengths and give up on the weaknesses. Like, let’s say, a bunker mesmer. You can use PU, but it’ll be hard to hold a point like that. Instead, maybe use a Lockdown as a stopper, simply stalling the enemy and have those at mid leave a port at home and thus be able to go home all the while the CI Mesmer is keeping it steady.

Though, on the topic of Bunker Mesmer, there might be something I’d like to try… Maybe a 0/4/6/4/0?

Largos seem to have Greek connections, given Tethyos Houses seem to play off a Greek Sea Goddess, Tethys. In which case, we can look for entities in Greek Myth which begin with S.

Perhaps they’ll use an alternative spelling of Cetus[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetus].

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think people here realized the S bit before WP. He likes to present things found by the community without attribution – which itself is fine… Until people begin attributing the find to him.

Ah, sorry about that. My bad on the wrongful attribution.

The DSD’s name apparently begins with an “S”, according to Wooden Potatoes’s insight.

So, with that in mind, we should begin looking into myths for villainous figures that begin with “S” and maybe have some cultural relevance to cultures the sentient sea people’s are based on.

This is a joke, of course, but anyone notice that the symbol above Abbadon’s statue in the latest pic of Episode 5 looks like an “All-Seeing Eye” in that sun inside of a pyramid/triangle? Seemed uncanny.

Well, at least we know who ANet is really working for…

I demand kungkittenclones!

Clownmug.8357:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

I do wonder if mesmer can achieve the same thing by having 3 clone death traits with DE (probably with energy sigil due to clone demands), mantra of distraction (plus harmonious mantra?) with perplexity, and condi duration food etc. But that would probably be pushing it since opponents need to be actively destroying clones.

You can’t create clones without a weapon.

Really? Nothing happens if you decoy with no weapons?

A Power Ranger’s survivability comes from its range. Most classes{or all} except ranger cannot reach 1500 range, and you can therefor fire from there safely. That buffer space is your survivability. You also have a stealth skill and a knock back skill to keep your distance with.

Mesmers and thieves usually have to get in the range of others to get their full burst out, so they have skills to survive in that range better than certain rangers built for outside of the range.

Now, not to say rangers don’t deserve a buff or fix in certain places. Certainly, make pets work better[Not buff pets, just rework their AI a good bit], make those “useless” shouts you stated useful.

And, for all classes, buff useless traits into usefulness. Rangers aren’t alone in this.

On the note of Point Blank, it seems like they’re holding off from actual nerfs as much as simply “adjusting” the skills for this new long-range fast-shooting meta.

Carighan.6758:

Isn’t this the AE-Diversion one? It’s actually really strong, the problem is the placement.

That is to say, Imbued Diversion is a very powerful trait which, if it were offered at GM in Domination, I’d readily pick over something like CS which is virtually never of any benefit.
But, it competes with IP. That is the problem, not ID in itself. You cannot compete with IP, it’s so powerful that there’s no reason to go 6/6 Illusions if you’re not picking up IP, it’s the whole point of going deep down that line.

I think if either IP was changed so it was no longer as necessary to make Shatter useful (more base Shatter power, less from IP), or if Imbued Diversion was moved to Domination, it’d be a very popular trait.

Yes and no. It isn’t so much that it competes with IP, so much. While moving it to Domination might make it more popular and useful, the problem with its placement right now is the synergy with other traits, which there are none within the Illusions line. Domination, Dueling, and Chaos just have a lot of lockdown bonuses. If, let’s say, we were to add traits beside ID to Illusions in which it gave bonuses to shattering in general or specifically Diversion, we might go down that road.

Guards, firstly, have the lowest HP pool with reasonable armor. However, this puts them in more of the medium range of defense. Even with a hell of a lot of armor, a pure cannon will definitely hit hard, which is what they’re meant to do. However, despite having the lowest health, all that defense did indeed defend you from dying immediately from the burst.

Also, it is impossible to kill in 1 shot, as many have said, with shatter. 3 shots if against something squishy, 7-9 if against something heavier. Also, it takes somebody allowing a mesmer to set up the clones and illusions, so basically the fault in that death or near-death is your own for allowing a mesmer to catch you off guard. Yet still, despite being put at a clear disadvantage, you survived the burst. That in of itself is the result of your armor being high. If a mesmer or thief burst an ele or engi or ranger, the victim might have been downed.

Grump.7069:

normal builds got better CC and/or mobility though. However the glitch is too rare to be truely game breaking. I’ve played 25 LI games this season already and i’ve had 1 game where a thief was glitched.

I’ve had 6 of 7 games with a bugged player, the 7th I was the bugged player. Depending on who’s in your rounds, it can happen consistently given it might be trigger-able.

LunarNacht.8913:

Dondagora.9645:

LunarNacht.8913:

Thing is, if the villagers fight back “together” right at the beginning instead of just running away they can kill the lunatics easily.

Not easily. It takes 2-5 villagers to equal 1 Lunatic. If they tried to fight back against all the Lunatics, they’d lose because of the damage and fears.

That’s why I said at the beginning, when there aren’t that many lunatics. If you can stop them from multiplying for a while you can finish some of the collection events which will spawn allied mobs that aren’t easy to deal with for the lunatics. MKS will reset the cd of your stealth too. So if another villager can stop the courtier for the duration you can run away and stealth somewhere.

One thing that can be a problem are the detection the courtiers have on the portpoint.

Really, the villagers can only win if they work together at the beginning and that’s rare. The game suffers from the same problem every other activity suffers from. You can’t play it with friends only with random people.

Huh, interesting tactic. Might have to get a whole guild to pull it off, but could be fun.

silentnight warrior.2714:

What Moa needs its 2 things. After that its balanced.

- Cannot be casted while in stealth.
- Can be refleted. (This could be a huge buff to the mesmer because acording to these forums Moa is very powerfull).

First thing is fine, second is… well, troll-ish. Assuming you’re not joking, I’d argue that reflect is for projectiles, and moa is no projectile. And our argument is not that moa is powerful, but that it does not make you helpless, which is what many believe without studying the actual skills and capabilities of moa.

LunarNacht.8913:

Thing is, if the villagers fight back “together” right at the beginning instead of just running away they can kill the lunatics easily.

Not easily. It takes 2-5 villagers to equal 1 Lunatic. If they tried to fight back against all the Lunatics, they’d lose because of the damage and fears.

The bug is breaking, definitely needs a fix.
But what I think needs to be done is to cut off the banquet to be the last reward of the ghost events while the allies are the first, or else it will be 10+ items to get the minions and people will never get to it before dying, making it just not worth going for the events if you had a better chance just hiding.

xDudisx.5914:

Dondagora.9645:

xDudisx.5914:

Moa also removes all the minions of a necro and put them on cd. This another example of how broken the skill is.

It counter plays necro. And that’s more of a bug than anything else. A bug ANet knows fully about, and why it is, and how to fix it. And they left it there for their to be better counter play against MM necros.

Also, where the hell did this argument come from? Like I said, organize your argument before you make a QQ, then maybe you can convince people, but right now it looks like you hadn’t done any research before hand, then you did, and found something else you could complain about just like you did in the post above.

Get all your facts straight at the beginning then QQ.

Stop making assumptions you cant prove. I know moa removes minions by experience. Now who are you to dictate the order someone post their arguments? Lol so I cant think in something else to add in the topic latter. This topic is not even mine, I am just supporting the op.

Oh, right, this isn’t your thread. In that case, my bad, thought you were the OP just winging his argument, which is quite annoying. Sorry.

On your argument, though, I know moa kills minions when the necro is transformed(from experience doing it to necros myself). There’s a reason for this: The nerf to lich form in which minions die when the necro enters it. In the code, it apparently isn’t connected to the lich in which the skill says “kill minions”, but the code of the minions say “die when transformed”, which is why the transformation of moa removes the minions. The devs acknowledged this, I believe, in one of their live streams[cannot remember which, someone else can provide the reference if needed] as a bug, but left it there because they felt that kind of play wasn’t too bad as an anti-bunker or anti-decap technique.

xDudisx.5914:

Moa also removes all the minions of a necro and put them on cd. This another example of how broken the skill is.

It counter plays necro. And that’s more of a bug than anything else. A bug ANet knows fully about, and why it is, and how to fix it. And they left it there for their to be better counter play against MM necros.

Also, where the hell did this argument come from? Like I said, organize your argument before you make a QQ, then maybe you can convince people, but right now it looks like you hadn’t done any research before hand, then you did, and found something else you could complain about just like you did in the post above.

Get all your facts straight at the beginning then QQ.

There’s this really annoying bug in the Inquisitor game where some people, seemingly randomly, have their normal weapon skills and utility. Please fix this, because it is making the game for ghosts and villagers unpleasant.

What Elitist said.

See, there’s a proper order of things in order to get a response from the forums.
1. Ask for help
2. Ask for information from the class
3. Complain with arguments in an organized fashion so that we can understand all the points you believe are OP about what you’re asking a nerf for, and we can argue those points individually.

You skipped to three and did not organize your points to the extent that we could tell them apart from the vague statement of “Shatter OP, high burst, really fast, etc.” You have to make it community friendly.

Yeah, might like glamour on Time Warp. Mass blind, extra 2 seconds, reduced CD from the ridiculous 210 seconds. Might be worth it. On another note, maybe we all might want to start a petition thread in the Profession Balance Forums for a reduced CD or Glamour on Time Warp? Make it a thing, y’know?

xDudisx.5914:

All the other skills can be dodged, this is not a good argument to defend moa. What if we give a 100k dmg ranged skill for one class with 1seconds cast time. Would you consider it balance too because you can dodge?

The cd is also not a good excuse. Supply crate, lich form, fgs, spirit of nature, tomes, etc.. and arent a press to win 1v1 skills.

All the other skills that can be blocked, dodged, reflected, blinded, still allow you do counter play after even if that lands. If it is direct dmg you can heal, if it is condi you can clear, after moa is landed you have almost 0 counter play. The only thing similar to moa in this game is Ice Bow #5 but you take 50% more time to cast, it roots you on cast, has a much more visible animation and last less time.

Lich cannot be dodged, it is a self-transformation and makes the necro able to do 1vX, and the things you listed are also better in 1vX. And as we’ve said multiple times, being moa does not instakill you. What we need is just a better way for people to learn to use moa skills outside of the mesmer in the mists.

Moa is made so there is made to confuse enemies used to countering damage with heals and blocks. However, it isn’t without defense, as it has plenty of evasion, mobility, and weakness to last out the whole 10 seconds it’s active. You can also, as stated multiple times, kill people as a moa.

xDudisx.5914:

Dondagora.9645:

jihm.2315:

ok give all classes a skill that is not always useful but once it lands you have a 90% of killing the enemy

Necro>>Lich
Warrior>>Burst/Rampage
Ranger>>Rapid Fire/Entangle
Engi>>Supply Crate
Thief>>Heart Seeker

Not “I win button”, but the win-rate is probably the same.

All the examples you gave let you still make use of your skills, utilities and have some counters.

lich: remove stability and chain cc, reflect his projectiles, use line of sight,….
most burst skills are ok and balanced. rampage: when was the last time you have seen a warrior using it?
ranger: 1 condi clear, teleport or destroy the vines and you are free. you can reflect rapid fire, staff eles do it all the time
supply crate: this one is close to moa but at least you still have your skills to use,
heartseeker: it is not op,

moa: you cant use your weapon skills, cant use utilities, cant use your class mechanics. without that you nullify the enemy entire build and traits that synergize with the active usage of skills.

Ah, but you see, Moa Morph can be blocked, blinded, evaded, and interrupted. As a moa, you are not in a permanent stun and can actually kill the mesmer or escape, depending on the situation. Mesmer has poor running mobility, with a few exceptions, so this is a viable way of avoiding death.

As for my examples, yeah, they aren’t all-powerful all-win skills. Making them the same as moa. Powerful, misunderstood, and with weaknesses and counters.

Firstly, yes, while moa does not let you use utility, that’s part of the reason it is a 180 CD elite, which blocks your ability to heal or whatnot. If you’re not already low on health, you can use moa skills to survive the ten seconds[not uncommon nowadays]. If you are low on health and in need of a heal, then that’s tough that the opposing player had the foresight to save his elite as a finishing move. However, it does not deprive you of the many evasive maneuvers moa has at its disposal.

So, is moa a hard-hitting lockdown? Yes, it’s an elite skill, it’s supposed to hit hard and give difficulty. Is it unavoidable? No, it has a tell and has multiple ways of failing, which still makes it go on a full 180 second cool down despite not morphing anyone. Is it an instakill or instawin? No, there are ways to utilize the moa skills to survive the whole ten seconds with little repercussion, even putting extreme pressure on the mesmer who used it in the first place.

Don’t be fooled by the weak-mob look that moa emits. It has been balanced[quite recently] to not be an auto-death for those morphed.

jihm.2315:

ok give all classes a skill that is not always useful but once it lands you have a 90% of killing the enemy

Necro>>Lich
Warrior>>Burst/Rampage
Ranger>>Rapid Fire/Entangle
Engi>>Supply Crate
Thief>>Heart Seeker

Not “I win button”, but the win-rate is probably the same.

Moa skills are actually not bad. The “nerf” needed is just a tutorial area where people can be turned into a moa and learn the skills. I still remember the days I used moa for the sake of it and was destroyed by good players, so don’t call it a “useless animal”.

Nowadays, moa is only used in crucial moments in team fights[at least, for the full effect], like when a necro pulls their own “I win” button, the lich, and end up having it counter-transformed or breaking the super healing of guards and ele.

So no, I do not always win if I blindly moa. If I moa correctly, then maybe I have a better chance, but it is not an auto-win button in a fight.

And Dudis, I don’t think I’ve met a shatter mesmer who uses moa. Timewarp and Mass Invis are more useful in shatters usually because moa has a lot of evasive skills, making it slightly harder to shatter on. I run moa, again, for lockdown, but it isn’t so powerful that all mesmers run it[it’s actually not that common. Once in a blue moon you’ll see a mesmer run it, and even rarer will you see them use it correctly].

Rune of the Warp
1) +25 Precision
2) +10% Chill Duration
3) +50 Precision
4) +15% Chill Duration, 25% chance when hit to create a Frost Nova around you. [30 second ICD]
5) +100 Precision
6) When you chill a foe, gain quickness for 3 seconds. [30 second ICD]

Yeah, not a lot of point in continuing. I’ll make a final argument, though:

Dudis, Shatter Mesmer is a high risk-high reward build. For it to work to its full potential, the mesmer has to follow very specific rotations of skills and is hard to correct if the opponent messes it up. However, as you’ve said, it can kill quickly, make it hard to react, and help win in crunch fights.
So to say, this build has a lot of weaknesses for a specialized strength[single target focus kill]. Conditions eat the mesmer, evasive maneuvers mess up the shatter rotation, the clones/phantasms can be cleaved and annihilated by AoE, stealth nullifies shatters and illusions all together, and the mesmer is very squishy as he has no points in defensive trait lines and uses berserker stats.
This specialization is not something unique to the mesmer. Thieves and elementalists and even rangers nowadays specialize in high-damage glass cannons and prioritize killing quickly before the fight becomes too long, because glass cannons, if you haven’t noticed, are quite easily killed when hit a little.

Ranger’s moved up, thief should be above mesmer. Think you just missed that one entirely. Ele and engi aren’t doing so bad. Guardian is balanced, as always. Not sure about necro. They can be strong, and sometimes they aren’t. For them, it’s player-to-player. Probably means balanced, maybe not?

Well, that’s all I can say.