Guild Wars 2

As much as I hate Dudis’s ‘classism’ against mesmers, I actually don’t care. I never knew or needed to know about such an insignificant boost to my DPS, so really, this won’t affect much at all. Let ANet fix it, for all I care, or simply announce that it’s a creative technique players came up with, or whatever.

Supcutie.2538:

@Dondagora That strategy might work in lower end gameplay, but taking that much time to get your damage off in higher end games will result in your team being dead. Not to mention, generosity sigil transfers torment first every time. Sure you have more survivability with the condi spec but the ratio of sustain to effective damage output is less than shatter, especially when you consider clone pathing from positioning that you need to have and clones being killed by aoe.
Chaos and I were just talking about how there are good builds and great builds. Condi may be a good build, but it’s not good enough for high end play. Of course, having fun builds for all level of play is important. As of now, I would say play what you want since celestial overshadows us anyway.

Perhaps. I can’t speak for highest-tier PvP, since I don’t usually do tourneys and such.

I agree on the celestial nerf, of course, though.

Supcutie.2538:

Hey just wanted to clarify a few points

I was answering questions from the perspective of sPvP/tPvP, so yes I’m talking about shatter in relation to Thieves. Other specs that do well against thieves have a net loss in terms of impact overall in sPvP/tPvP relative to other classes you could take instead.

About condi shatter and team fights – because of the celestial high sustain meta right now, there is enough condi cleanse in fights to make condi shatter simply not enough damage. If you are playing Mesmer, you need the burst in order to make progress. Otherwise you need to play another class that has a better sustain (damage mitigation/avoidance and healing per damage output basically) which will allow you more room for error and more opportunities to outplay your opponents.

Hopefully that helps a bit, let me know if you have more questions!

Also I want to say that as always there are many ways to approach balance. Celestial amulet can be nerfed, or you can nerf the classes that utilize it best.

Funnily enough, I’ve found that they don’t have enough condition cleanse to keep up with MtD. That’s just been my experience. If you don’t focus on putting it all on them at once, instead shattering every 4-6 seconds, they’ll use up their cleansing to get rid of the 6 stacks of Torment they currently have, which seems damaging enough, plus the Confusion which is quite annoying. In which case, they’ll run out of cleanse faster than you run out of conditions to hand out. This, at least, has been my experience.

As you said, if we’re not going to burst, we’ll need more sustain, but, as stated, condition shatter has more survivability in taking hits than power shatter. If you use this sustain well, you can achieve great results in different scenarios than power shatter, such as providing a constant and strong pressure which power shatter simply can’t in team fights with a large amount of AoE Torment/Confusion and condition-applying clones. By this, I mean it fits slightly different roles than the shatter we knew.

Amir.1570:

Darnis.4056:

Shatter Mesmer is strong.. but most people who play it have almost no skill..
The problem is that sustain has become too strong you no longer have to worry about making many mistakes because you can outlast most burst rotations while putting out compareable damage.

Especially if you’re an engineer which absolutely carries even abysmal players just from the fact that they basically can’t be burst down ever. As long as you know the heal rotation.

What’s the point of playing high risk low reward? Pop crate and win all your fights.
(1v1 or otherwise)

Calls Engi, including grenade specs which are skill shots, brainless but plays a class that spams evades, has boon stripping, braindead easy DPS to land, has way too many “I screwed up stun breaks” and can have 6 condition clears every 10 seconds while negating any Berserker/Assassin’s amulet class that isn’t a Thief.

Your class is actually low-risk and medium reward right now. But back in the power meta, it was one of the most braindead zero risk class in the game. You want REAL high risk high reward? Play glass cannon Warrior and see if you still think Mesmer takes skill, lmao.

Learn humility already.

…Sure. You’re taking a lot out of context, and I don’t really want to argue with an irrational argument since it won’t amount to much in the end. If you’re willing to provide more substance to your statement, then maybe. Right now what you said isn’t really anything, so it’s impossible to give a proper rebuttal.

Kythan Myr.4719:

Kinda new to this celestial thing, Which professions benefit from it? All?

Elementalist and Engineer, and maybe Warrior to a lesser extent. Ele and Engi are the ones that can utilize every trait ridiculously, with sustain to burst-heal themselves back up to near-max when close to the dirt and pretty good direct and condi damage. The thing which makes it “OP”, however, is elementalist’s might stacking, giving them power equal to a berserker’s[or greater] plus all the benefits of celestial, making it a tank+DPS+support, basically the Holy Trinity packed into a single character. Unsure about engineer, though, so someone else can speak on that.

As stated above by messiah, I disagree on the points about condi shatter. Supcutie says it doesn’t provide a lot of damage in team fight scenarios, but given that you basically condition-bomb areas with each illusion, it contributes much more in team scenarios than the single-target bursting power shatter. This, with the tankiness it gains from being a condition build, makes it more suited for 1v2 fights than power shatter as well.

Other than that, though, I found this very interesting.

Focus is very practical. Gives you swiftness, a hard-hitting[yet slow] phantasm, and reflect if traited.

GS and/oror Staff can be equally useful, mostly because you can stack a bunch of conditions on enemies without worrying about cleansing and thus get a super cannon of a warlock.

Torch… no, not in PvE.

I created a pretty tough-to-kill mesmer: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRArc8ansISJaWoGWqB3aIR1QO7zkocbaSFocdA-TZRAwAAOIAhODAeeAAjLDEd/BA

The phantasms cover the healing via Mantra, you get the passive of the signet, and the Defender minimizing burst. I haven’t tried it out in Unranked or Ranked, but it’s worked somewhat well in duels so long as I can get the initial Defender and Disenchanter up, which is essential to letting you keep a constant flow of phantasms up from that point. I usually used Mass Invis to cover me at the beginning of the fight.

Unsure of the actual viability of this, but meh, you asked.

I tend to go far in forest. My experience is that there are two advantages to going far: Stealing the enemy’s home point and giving your team extra points OR becoming a distraction using sustainment. You want to go in for the steal. Despite this, sometimes you can’t steal. Instead, you distract the other team to give your team an advantage on mid. If you can do well 1v1 and survive well in 1v2, far is the place for you. Or, if you’re capable of netting in the other enemies at the beginning without being a great threat to far, then it’s also ok.

But if you can’t take it 1v1, you shouldn’t waste your time too much with it, or else it just hinders your team once the other team knows their home is safe.

Sebastian.4610:

Poliator.7021:

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I am a thief,
Two, two, two.

By someone!

Thief’s love <3

ele’s are red,
guardians are blue,
I am a thief,
Two, two, two.

Clones are purple,
Phantasms are purple,
I am a Mesmer,
Illusions, butterflies, purple.

Mace Windu had a purple saber. Just saying.

vasilismartsis.8930:

Hello. I was wondering, Mesmer’s color (and his effects color) is only Shades of purple?
If yes is any way to change them?

Yes.
No.

Strengths:

• Steady Flow: I tend to be able to keep a calm pace throughout my fights, so I can both make decisions and keep control of the fight.

• Stalling: This goes with my steady flow. Even if I can ‘control’ a good amount of my fights, it doesn’t mean I can win them all. For the ones that I can’t win, I’ve found myself good at realizing my situation and instead prolonging the fight for as long as possible, netting in as many enemies as I can, in order to act as a distraction for my team.

• Condition Mesmer: With the new MtD buff, I’ve found the condition-bomb that each shatter provides to compliment my steady flow and the increased survivability to help my stalling a fair bit. I haven’t seen many other condition mesmers, but I think it’s fair to say that I’m decent at it.

• Lockdown Mesmer: Lockdown was my first ‘real’ mesmer. I had used a condition-phantasm build at first, but that was me just theory crafting without a lot of experience in the game. I learned some aggression in lockdown tactics from Warlord of Chaos and read up on it in Chaos Archangel’s topics, and found myself doing pretty well with it.

• Learning: I’ve come to a point where I can try new things and test out theories to the best of my ability, along with changing up my patterns and quickly realize when my normal rotations have become obsolete against certain opponents. Simply put, I feel like I can adapt and learn well.

• Targeting: I’ve somewhat learned myself in the art of Control+T before and during combat. Very useful, but a bit risky at times.

Weaknesses:

• Power-Shatter: For some reason, I’m not much of a burster. The concept of sporadic combos doesn’t do well with me.

• Fatigue: Sometimes I play despite not being in my ‘best condition’. Thus, I react sluggishly and it costs my team. Working on being more careful about this in the future.

• OH Sword: I can use it fine, but it’s probably the weapon I’m the worst with since I use it the least. Theoretically, though, I should do fine with it.

• WvW: Don’t have the gear for it~ I should probably get working on that, though I also don’t care much for the game mode.

I also have that “skill-staring” habit from time to time.

It crits. That should cleanse your confusion~

Warriors are the most basic of the basic. Their skills were designed to be both effective and simple, so you don’t need to worry about resource management[Mesmer, Thief] extra skills[Elementalist, Engineer, Necromancer], AI[Ranger]. The next most basic would probably be the Guardian, as you don’t necessarily need to know everything about your class mechanic[Virtues] to get use out of them. Both heavy-armored classes have relatively straight-forward utility and weapon skills.

Staff can give you swiftness, but it’s RNG. Signet of Inspiration can also give swiftness, but it’s also RNG. PU can give you swiftness in stealth, but also a bit RNG. With double-traited Blink, it might help you feel a bit faster.

Mesmers can keep people permanently immobilized with the right builds[CI]. iLeap+Swap immobilizes in a small AoE. And, just as Fay said, use condition cleanse to get rid of it. Arcane Thievery, Null Field, Cleansing Mantra, iDisenchanter, and Mender’s Purity are the main forms of cleansing. There’s traited torch, which is alright, or a GM in inspiration which just isn’t worth it that gives cleansing on shatters.

Amir.1570:

^
It’s actually medium skill cap. It’s not hard to get a shout warrior to be cleansing condis for you.

It’s also not hard to use null field or spam evade frames while baiting out people’s evade because of the fact that you can attack while evading 24/7 and call it skill.

I don’t get why people think Mesmer is hard. IF you wanted HARD and high skill cap then play warrior without 30 defense glass cannon great sword. Or play THIEF in general against people with half a brain.

Hell even that shout build that Tarcis is using right now is harder than Mesmer just because of the fact that it’s easy to chain CC that to death. Chain CC a mesmer though? Nope spam invulnerability, dodges, and shatter randomly. Add condi cleanse to that? One of the most braindead classes in the game.

I guarantee that these “Mesmers mains” are bad at every other class that takes real effort and is not simply about spamming cheesy mechanics.

Just learn humility already Mesmer mains, sigh.

The “shatter randomly” annoyed me a bit.

Mesmer is said to be high-skill cap because we’re highly reliant on our class mechanic and non-offensive utility to create combos and situations where we can win. Therefore, it puts any mesmer at a disadvantage to “spam” most anything.

By the way. You know, in case you didn’t understand how mesmers have to actually work against good players. Against not-good players who get confused by clones… well, it’s pretty much the same experience for everyone on the lower tier: Everybody seems OP.

No idea how to do it with double-range. Maybe use the clones as pin-cushions to shield you?

Will condi-cleanse remove it? If not, it’s OP! Nerf!

Lordrosicky.5813:

Chaith.8256:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Also 90% of the increase in teams recently came via solo queue. People played and proved themselves in solo queue. They met other people in solo queue. And that formed more teams. This game is deader than at any time I can remember.

It seems to me like you’re describing a good thing…? Why shouldn’t people prove themselves in solo queue, meet other regulars, and form teams?

After one game with likely very low MMR I think an un-install is a bit of a kneejerk reaction, well, goodbye then!

You are ridiculous. Is your point that the system isn’t totally broken and utter garbage? There is a reason in the old system solo queuing would often give you 5-10 minute queues. And that was to find a decent match up.

When the game insta-pops and I am with skill clickers it means the system is garbage. Its not an opinion. It doesn’t matter what you think or what you say. The sytem is factually horrendous. Insta pops and garbage match ups with randoms. The old system was 1000% better. I know nobody who doesn’t think this. So if anyone does please say here and give some justification. I am happy to change my mind if someone provides some logical arguement.

I like the new system. At first, the queues were bad, and likely if you’re going in for the first time it may be bad. However, I feel that the more you play, the more the system will find your actual ranking instead of the initial ranking of zero. You logged on and this was your first game with the new system? Of course you’ll be paired in the lower tier. But, if you think perhaps that “maybe that was just a bad match. Happens to everyone.” then perhaps you can play enough to stabilize your ranking a bit.

It just feels bad because it’s likely been a while since you’ve been on the lowest tier of PvP.

Which is why you’re not hearing the mass QQ about the matchmaking nowadays, 2 weeks into the change. Most people have played enough to stabilize their ranking again to their actual standing at this point.

Chaith.8256:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Also 90% of the increase in teams recently came via solo queue. People played and proved themselves in solo queue. They met other people in solo queue. And that formed more teams. This game is deader than at any time I can remember.

It seems to me like you’re describing a good thing…? Why shouldn’t people prove themselves in solo queue, meet other regulars, and form teams?

After one game with likely very low MMR I think an un-install is a bit of a kneejerk reaction, well, goodbye then!

Think he meant how they got rid of solo que is bad. Still, I often went into Team Que back then and did well so long as I played well. It’s all just a matter of luck if you’re doing so, getting good players and a comp you can work with.

A don’t judge things based on a single experience~ That creates discrimination~

We could try nominating people, but some[Pyro] of us who might be nominated might not have the best standing, plus our nomination means absolutely nothing as anyone can apply and it’s up to ANet. If we try to nominate someone and that someone doesn’t get chosen, it’ll create an awkward situation with the chosen specialist. Thus, it’s better to just let it happen.

Nazer.7301:

rabid full, 4/4/0/0/6 power= condi damage, healing is crap. Rabid for crits=bleeds. toughness>vitality>healing. I prefer travelers in every game mode.

we could do some dueling to see what build ya want. Anyone for some MtD dueling?

I’m up for it~

I did want to see how mine would hold up against other MtD builds.

However, it would have to be in PvP, not WvW. This is responding to Freedan’s comment about not being able to afford gear, so to say that he was thinking about WvW.

Freedan.1769:

The input has been really great guys! However, I am still uncertain what should be considered optimal overall? The ones who favor 44006 feels to me like a strong emphasis on power builds. The purpose of MtD after all is to take the opponent down with condition damage specifically, either DPS style or spiking with Torment and Confusion. I have probably used Windwalker’s build the most, as I thought healing while spiking damage seemed like a nice combo. Realistically though, the armor for it isn’t out there, it needs an armor set like Apothecaries except emphasis on the Condition Damage and healing power as a secondary with Toughness. Perhaps the question is best answered by an armor set? What does everyone feel is the most effective armor/runes for maximizing MtD?

There’s no “purpose” to it, really. The main damage you get from 4/4/0/0/6 is from conditions like confusion and torment, as you said. However, to optimize it, the 4 in Domination provides vulnerability on your Diversion and extra condi duration, which fits perfectly well. It also lets you trait torch, giving more condi cleanse and more burn and confusion to add to the mix, along with the survivability of stealth.

And, honestly, the I feel like it would be more useful to mix some direct damage, AKA Power, into the build. Our condition weapons[Scepter, Torch, Staff] have pretty strong direct damage together with them[Confusing Images, iWarden]. We shouldn’t neglect that aspect of it, or else it’ll weaken the build.

Of course, one can go for a full-condition build, and if they make it work all the better. But remember that MtD is only one trait of many. The builds may be built around it, but it isn’t the singular thing that makes up the build.

Personally, I use Carrion, giving me fine direct damage along with the main condition damage and a good load of vitality to up my survivability. I also use Lich Runes, which up my survivability again while increasing my Torment’s duration to 8 seconds from 7.25.

I find Rabid to be not as useful in a condition shatter as we already have clones which apply conditions. Seems more useful in a condition phantasm build. Just an opinion, of course.

Still, try not to confuse optimal with specialized, which would pigeonhole what you’re asking for.

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

How do you think we made the guides, how do you think we made the builds?

Guides were made by people who were the first to figure things out. More than 2 years in, you seriously think people haven’t tested every possible build that could work? I doubt a newbie will suddenly find something entirely new that’s just perfect and will dominate everything. And if you let him come up with something unviable and just tell him to practice, how will he learn how to play? If he plays a build that nobody could earn success with, how will he know his skill level?

not everybody requires a dedicated seminar on mechanics to figure things out. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, at least to begin with.

Will you throw your kid into the lake and see if he figures out how to swim?

Guides were made by those who went out of their way to post their builds. You often see “I’ve been using this, too” or “I use something like this, with a few tweaks.”

And yeah, throw him in the lake. Give him the idea of how to swim, and the different strokes, and see what he comes up with. I went into PvP by doing my best creating a condition-phantasm build. It worked well enough, but it helped to teach me the skills I liked, how to use them, and what they could do.

I think it’ll do him well to make something of his own so he can figure the basics of mesmer PvP out himself. If he’s finding it hard, he can check out a guide, but it’ll be better at the beginning to learn in game instead of in a step-by-step text. Of course, we can help him get used to it, showing him effective combos, but it’s always better in-game than outside of the game.

At least, this is my opinion.

Bump~

/15 char

Noah.9654:

Dondagora.9645:

Noah.9654:

Dondagora.9645:

I’ve had success on my MtD build, with its traited torch and disenchanter taking care of conditions while each shatter bombs heavy conditions on the enemy zerg, along with Chaos Storm and The Prestige’s burn. Staff clones and iMage have bouncing attacks, which also help me burn and bleed the enemy’s ranks given how close they are. I also use Lich Runes and Carrion stats, so my survivability in team fights like that is pretty decent. And, given the staff and iMage, you’re also giving some decent boons to your team.

All in all, I think this mass AoE that condi shatter has works very well in Courtyard compared to the glassy single-focus power Shatter, which only has a single decent AoE damager[Mind Wrack]. It’s easier and more effective to fight in front without worrying about being burst down.

This is all just my experience, so someone might have a different idea on it, though.

Would you mind posting this build? I’d really like to try it. I’m currently using power shatter and I feel like I’m not contributing as much as I should to my team in these zerg fights.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWnsISjaWoGOoB3aGp1gQdVGTPJZAKQJbQ1A-TJRHwAILDca/BAnCABPBAA

Don’t be a stranger to retreating to the back sometimes and supporting your team with staff clones until you’re ready to dive back in. Also, don’t forget that your torch skills can cleanse. Prestige and iMage has saved me multiple times from immobilization.

This set looks like a lot of fun to play around with even outside of CY. When you are in the zerg fights in CY, how does this set work against teams with dedicated condi-cleansers? I’ve fought a few teams where a Mesmer would sit in the back and spam Null Field all day. Do you think that simply focusing the condi-cleanser will solve this problem?

All in all, good build

It’s still good in any other map, yeah.

So far as I can tell, this build’s ability to pump out constant conditions, and the high burst of those conditions, counters the limited condition cleanse that the other team may have. And, at the least, if your enemy is sitting in condition cleansed area, your clones and phantasms will be supporting your team’s direct damage, and Mind Wrack[direct damage with this build isn’t the worst] and Diversion/Chaos Storm are still useful for damage and dazes.

Noah.9654:

Dondagora.9645:

I’ve had success on my MtD build, with its traited torch and disenchanter taking care of conditions while each shatter bombs heavy conditions on the enemy zerg, along with Chaos Storm and The Prestige’s burn. Staff clones and iMage have bouncing attacks, which also help me burn and bleed the enemy’s ranks given how close they are. I also use Lich Runes and Carrion stats, so my survivability in team fights like that is pretty decent. And, given the staff and iMage, you’re also giving some decent boons to your team.

All in all, I think this mass AoE that condi shatter has works very well in Courtyard compared to the glassy single-focus power Shatter, which only has a single decent AoE damager[Mind Wrack]. It’s easier and more effective to fight in front without worrying about being burst down.

This is all just my experience, so someone might have a different idea on it, though.

Would you mind posting this build? I’d really like to try it. I’m currently using power shatter and I feel like I’m not contributing as much as I should to my team in these zerg fights.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWnsISjaWoGOoB3aGp1gQdVGTPJZAKQJbQ1A-TJRHwAILDca/BAnCABPBAA

Don’t be a stranger to retreating to the back sometimes and supporting your team with staff clones until you’re ready to dive back in. Also, don’t forget that your torch skills can cleanse. Prestige and iMage has saved me multiple times from immobilization.

On that very same note, anyone think that Courtyard actually gives us the opportunity to use “Imbued Diversion”? Perhaps combine it with Mantra of Distraction and Confounding Suggestions to create a mass-chain stun using staff as well? The other team will likely zerg together, so isn’t this the best-case scenario for this kind of mesmer?

I’ve had success on my MtD build, with its traited torch and disenchanter taking care of conditions while each shatter bombs heavy conditions on the enemy zerg, along with Chaos Storm and The Prestige’s burn. Staff clones and iMage have bouncing attacks, which also help me burn and bleed the enemy’s ranks given how close they are. I also use Lich Runes and Carrion stats, so my survivability in team fights like that is pretty decent. And, given the staff and iMage, you’re also giving some decent boons to your team.

All in all, I think this mass AoE that condi shatter has works very well in Courtyard compared to the glassy single-focus power Shatter, which only has a single decent AoE damager[Mind Wrack]. It’s easier and more effective to fight in front without worrying about being burst down.

This is all just my experience, so someone might have a different idea on it, though.

I don’t see s question in this, but I’ll assume you’re asking what’s the best. Personally, I find my 4/4/0/0/6 to be amazing thus far. I’ve been having upward results in Ranked and Unranked[and Team and Solo Queue] for the past month or so. I can also hold myself a decent while in King of the Hill and dueling, where I’m winning around 75% of the time[made up statistic].

I haven’t tried 0/4/4/0/6 or 0/4/0/4/6 yet, so no idea about how well those do.

locoman.1974:

I find your lack of fat male norn disturbing..

This is… amazing.
The roundness is usually assumed to remove the class from the mesmer, but this… this is a new level of class in of itself. Like saying “I’m fat, I’m elegant, and I’m powerful. Get too close and you’ll catch the crazies.” The contrast between the robustness of the man seems to compliment the elegant technique and purple of the mesmer instead of reduce it, just how the mesmer itself says “I’m a mage, but I’ll use swords and guns anyway. Deal with it.”

I cannot completely explain how much I love this look.

Lyssa’s Grimoire

Official Mesmer Forum Guild

The first link is a very thorough and extensive guide to the mesmer and understanding it.

The second is a guild the mesmer community on the forums came together at. We have members to help others learn mesmer in various game modes, including PvP.

Right now, there are four general kinds of builds, as I understand it: Power Shatter[What some call a shatter mesmer. Aggressive playstyle and very strong when mastered], Phantasm[Just as it says, it uses phantasms to do its damage], Lockdown[Uses utility and weapon skills and shatters to interrupt the enemy and prevent them from attacking. CC heavy. Damage usually comes from a mix of phantasm and shatter. Similar style to power shatter. Can be done aggressively or steadily], and Condi Shatter[Relatively new with the Maim buff, but seems to have high potential. Tankier than power shatter, slightly more relaxed style but still very aggressive].

There’s also boonshare, which is super high-skill to do it well. It uses Signet of Inspiration and various skills to spread boons to allies and support the team. I’ve never successfully attempted it, so I can’t comment about the style.

Lyssa’s Grimoire and [OMFG](If you want to join) can help you with the build specifics, but I wanted to give you a basic summary to see if you had an idea of what you wanted to do off the bat instead of trying out everything as you learn about it.

Go for it. Just keep in mind, the most important parts of creating a guild like this are:
a) Good, active leader[s] which keep the invites going and knowledgeable about the game’s mechanics. It would be best to have a leader with two accounts for both NA and EU, or one leader in each region.
b) Snazzy name. The original “Eletists” worked a bit, but maybe an acronym like OMFG[Official Mesmer Forum Guild] would be better. Make it something easy on the mind, so I don’t think a OEFG would be good since it sounds kind okittenward and wrong. One suggestion on my end is “EA” for Elementalist Association.
c) Open community. The only condition to joining was wanting to join. Don’t try making your guild do WvW content, or else it’ll exclude people. For same reason, make no restraint on the server it’s based in.

Just a bit of advice if you’re wanting to start this.

Nightshade.5924:

Nightshade.5924:

pdavis.8031:

@OP

Sorry you just lost all credibility when you stated that you needed a fully geared lvl 80 to play pvp. And that anything less was hurting your team. I might have been able to get behind the OP stealth, or even seeing some stats, but not anymore. Everything said from that point on became an issue of L2P.

If you cant beat ’em, join ’em…

Spend the money, but a character slot, and check it out for yourself. No one here is going to agree with you, not after that part about having to be 80 to pvp…

/thread. Thanks!

pdavis…. I am willing to learn. And to admit my mistakes. And I also tend to read the whole thread BEFORE I offer comment. Scroll up about 5 posts from this response, some 30 mins before you threw in your two cents.. Have a nice day.

No, no, I think the mainly incorrect part about your post which pdavis quoted is that you believed you needed exotic gear to PvP to the maximum of one’s ability, and that anything less than exotic would screw you over or just drop your effectiveness.

Gear doesn’t matter in PvP, and this show of ignorance of that seems to have shown vulnerability to your credibility.

Dragon.7682:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Well this is interesting. In case anyone missed it:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Guild-Wars-2-Forum-Specialists-Program/

What do y’all think? Personally I’m hopeful that this means better communication of players needs and ideas to the devs. I know many people see this and think “whats the point? It’s not like anything we say has a difference anyway” but that’s not entirely true.

Off the top of my head the changes to:

• GS 3
• Scepter 1 and 2
• Confounding Suggestions
• Lockdown traits
• Some bug fixes (including staff chaos storm sound, distortion bug)

All were influenced by us here in the Mes forums, so there is hope!

Don’t forget about Torch #5!

nobody remebers Torch 5

What’s wrong with iMage?

It got a lot of hate before, but I find it fine.

Might apply for it after I get into college. I pride my ability on being neutral and writing apathetic reports.

Hopefully our specialist can help us give ANet a list of all the points of mesmer we find underwhelming, such as Disrupter’s Sustainment and Mimic, in an organized way so ANet can know clearly what is needing work instead of having to go in game themselves or rely on the community’s latest target.

I get that you don’t want to delete your characters, so that reason alone is enough. I get that, at least. Adding things like “I hate it, so I won’t play it” adds a gleam of ignorance to your statements. It still does add a good bit of ignorance, but at least it’s more of an ignorance that can’t be helped kind of deal.

You don’t need to create a mesmer to understand it, but if you’re having trouble with it, it helps to play it. I never played a thief or any of the other 6 classes in PvP really[Engi for a single match. It was trolling with turrets. Nothing mechanically challenging.], but I learned to beat them eventually by asking people in-game and on the forums.

Though, you know what? Sure. It actually doesn’t matter much if the devs give a tracker. It can show data saying mesmers die less, meaning either mesmers are imbalanced[probably not the case] or that the mesmer player base is just more skilled. Or, it can say that mesmers die, on average, about as much as everyone else or more, thus ending this discussion. I doubt the devs will do this no matter how much you ask[unless one’s feeling a little ballsy and decides “what the heck. I’ll do it~”], but I say go ahead and let’s see. No downsides really, since I[like you] am confident in my opinion.

Nightshade.5924:

Shaogin.2679:

Yasha.5963:

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

You won’t even take the effort to play a class yourself and yet you demand that the devs undertake a study to “prove” that your anecdotal theory is incorrect?

Is there anything I can call that attitude that won’t get me banned from the forums?

^^^

SO according to you I should first delete one of my current toons OR buy a new slot just to try out a particular class. A class that I obviously dislike. Interesting. And just exactly WHY should I spend MY time and money in such an endeavor?

Now as for the DEVS… it is their RESPONSIBILITY to ensure a fair and fun game. To show evenhandedness, restraint. and equality in regards to players and by extension the toons that those players use in game. It’s in the job description. SO all I’m really asking for is Part of the DEVS job.

This is about providing and PROVING (or NOT proving?) that stealth classes, in particular, have a combat advantage in PvP. One would think that the DEVS, who purportedly are all about class balance and fairness in PvP, would WELCOME the challenge.

I mean, if I’m right, and say Mesmers die 1/2 as often as any other class in PvP, which is the pressure cooker of destruction, then this would be IRREFUTALBE PROOF that the class needs nerfing or revamping.

And say I’m wrong. Let’s say that I’m wrong and that Mesmers are dying TWICE as often as any other class. Then the DEVS could ramp up their damage, armor, hit points, what have you until this sad state of affairs was fixed.

But I’m fairly confident that I’m right. I’m just Demanding that the DEVS prove it. And then FIX the issue.

Problem here is that you’re arguing against a class you have no idea about. If you’re not willing to prove yourself with numbers and experience, why should the Devs who think mesmer’s fine waste their time proving it for you? You have the ability to try or test it, yet don’t. And instead of asking about things, assuming yourself ignorant, you make claims without evidence then demand evidence. This will cause problems. So, you can ask for a tracker, fine, but do not presume to know what the data will mean. Be modest, at the least, instead of blatantly and ignorantly arrogant.

If you’re going power shatter mesmer, it might be better given how you strip a boon per illusion. This means no boons on your opponent to keep them strong or safe.

I’m using a condition shatter mesmer, so I use the torch trait. However, given how torch is more of a condition weapon than a power weapon, it might suit a power shatter more to use a focus, sword, or pistol in off-hand.

This is just my PvP experience. Hopefully someone with WvW experience might give more specific or universal advice to this matter.

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

Fun fact: A few mesmers and myself formed an all-mesmer team. We were all pretty decent in our respective builds. In our match, we happened to be up against an all-warrior team in Khylo. It was funny, we all laughed about the chances of that happening. Then, we fought, and we lost. Can you explain this is for any reason other than simply being out played?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

You both make OMFG sound like a cult. o_O

One of Us, One of Us

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

As a power ranger you’re going to have some problems. Most Mesmer practically hardcounter power rangers if they’re not caught off guard since a heavy stealth shatter will bring you to near death in an instant. The only way you’re going to win that fight is with practice and experience.

Don’t listen to chaos :p join OMFG and ill teach you how to beat mesmers, as a ranger too! Power ranger esp when played right will rekt mesmers, even with reflect. Micro managing yer pet and soft cc,s is the key

Don’t listen to the first 4 words Sticker says. Listen to Chaos and join OMFG and we’ll teach you how to kill any kind of mesmer.

What I think is needed is to remove the choke points. This reduces fights greatly to simple zerging at times. For a deathmatch, we need an open ring with obstacles, at best, to use to our advantage. This might create more of a chance for those not built for the smashing of the two teams together.

I think 3 might per illusion shattered is too much. 12 might per shatter on a shatter mesmer. That will turn ridiculous fast. Currently, out might stacking is moderate, which is balanced fine with out aggressive style of attacks.

Use Control+T at the very beginning and practice doing it fast so you might be able to keep an eye on them in the middle of the fight.

If you had a problem with condi PU Mesmer and thus tried it out, the play style is more passive. Against PU, you want to retreat and kill the clones from afar. Laying down AoE can also help catch a mesmer in stealth. If you only have melee at the moment, then you’ll either want a condition cleanser ready or a condition immunity thing for after or while you kill the clones.

I don’t PU a lot[there was once] so I can’t help too much other than this.

Well, it’s the same as any other on-CC trait that every profession has. Amongst them, though, it’s not bad.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

I see what you all are saying , but inherently Range has more counters to it , those block skills like counter attack or War sword 5 all block ranged opposed to a 4 sec block on the old mimic that would also Obsorb the skill and fire it back.

that was a 100% damage migration with Return damage , aka a Heavy hard counter, that effected Ranged skills by negating them with the press of a button.

though them making it copy boons was a step in the right direction so this utility skill (isn’t treated as a hard counter) it would of been a different story is it was a weapon skill that needed active use.

Maybe it would be better if it worked like this.

Minic = copy targets boons Stage one
Echo= Sacrifice boons and copy the targets last used skill/Utility , you’ll have to give up those boons to Actively use the skill or utility.

this way you could time the use of this utility to ether Protect yourself using the full duration of those boons or Torment the target with his own skills/utilities)
after using Minic you’ll have lets say 30secs to target the skill/utility you want to counter with.

echo a rangers gs counter attack > kb into shatter without having to use Weapon skills , deadly powerful but also risky due to sacrificing boons.

though this will allow you the user to Create counterplays without it being Class targeted as a hard counter. best of both worlds.

though i agree that just gaining copyies of boons isn’t enough , the point of the change was to stop it being a hard counter utility , best way to make a skill stronger in balance terms without power creeping a different skill , is to nurf its counter directly though mimic needs somthing else and i think the echo idea is perfect for that.

While I get what you’re saying, this just makes the skill very strange and confusing. Plus, designing the skill to do both of what you said is basically combining two skills into one in a very ugly manner.

The greater problem with your suggestion lies in PvE: what would the mesmer copy then? Boons are rare, and will ANet really allow us to absorb various skills from NPC enemies? I think not.

Also, as I understood it, Echo would not absorb the skill, but just the single projectile. Correct me if I’m wrong on this, by the way. Thus, if a mesmer blocked Rapid Fire with his/her[gender equality] Mimic, he would only fire back a single arrow of the Rapid Fire.

As for it being class-specific, this is wrong in the sense that all classes use projectiles in some manner or form, and it doesn’t become too situational once a mesmer masters triggering the Mimic himself/herself[gender equality]. While you might say a mesmer triggering it himself/herself[gender equality] means Mimic is flawed in design, I say that the design is even more perfect as it opened up space for players to learn such interesting combinations.

I don’t see many downsides with it being reverted, as it won’t become something OP since it’s more defensive in nature.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Dondagora.9645:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

While I do agree mimic is the most useful in pvp I wouldn’t call it completely useless in PvE.

There are some mobs (most notably dredge) which often use might, protection etc… and do so for quite long duration applications.
By using mimic & or Arcane Thievery in combination with signet of inspiration I can give a decent number of stacks of might & quit e long duration protection to my entire group.

All that being said I do wish they would change mimic so that it could be used on any target including allies.
For instance, say you have a guardian ally who pops save yourselves. You could then immediately pop mimic on him & gain all the same boons.

Firstly, have you ever once seen a mesmer use this as their game plan? There are countless numbers of more useful utility which can achieve better results. I, for one, don’t see mesmers running mimic in any situation, even against dredge. Sure, the combo is cool in theory, but it is one of the least optimal strategies in 99%[my own made-up statistic] of PvE out of all the actual strategies of every class.

Also, I’d like to correct you: It is not more useful in PvP. It is currently viewed as weak in PvP as it is in PvE.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

If your truly having trouble with ranged enemies I would suggest pucking up the traits warden’s feedback & or masterful reflection.
The later works quite well with several different traits & can cause you to reflect ranged attacks quite often.

I’m not having problems with ranged enemies. The thing I have a problem with is having underwhelming skill in the mesmer kitten nal. I brought up the ranger buff because it felt like ANet just nerfed a mesmer’s range-defense at the same time as buffing the ranger’s range-offense in order to make the ranger seem stronger. This might not have been the intent, but it was outright insulting to be nerfed for such a reason. And this is, indeed, a nerf revamp given how 10% of mesmers[made-up statistic] ran it before while maybe 0.00000001% or less[made-up statistic] run it now.

I understand how you feel about having a near useless skill, allot of classes still have them.

Best advice I can offer is make sensible suggestions, keep making them & keep getting more people to agree with you.

Arena.net knows that said skills are rarely used if ever & if enough people speak up they will likely change them.

Who knows they might be planning a large amount of changes. They did just get over 110 million a while back for “future development” from their overlords at NCSoft.

I may be getting this wrong, but I feel a condescending attitude from you. It may just be because of how I’m reading it.

Anyway, I know every class has such skills[sadly, I don’t play anything other than mesmer, so I can’t give examples]. I’m not saying mesmer is less fortunate than any other class, but just because every class has useless skills doesn’t make the situation alright. I’d encourage, in this case, for those of every class to bring attention to this issue.

There have been plenty of discussion and negative feedback about Mimic in the mesmer forums but only a little in the profession forums, where I suspect ANet to frequent more than the class-specific sections. Therefore, as you said, I am bringing it to attention for the sake of change. The problem I have with making suggestion, however, is that I do not have a full view of GW2 balancing and personally feel such suggestion threads turn into a discussion of how bad or everything wrong with the suggestion, and thus mostly ignored by ANet. Instead, I believe a general thread will be more productive where everyone can give their own thoughts and suggestions of and for Mimic which ANet can gather more varied and encompassing data of the community’s opinions.