Guild Wars 2

Nike.2631:

So, do folks feel Warriors would have condition counters more proportionate to the trait cost if Cleansing Ire cleared only one condition regardless of adrenaline ranks when a burst skill is used?

So it would read like~

“Cleansing Ire: Using a burst skill removes 1 condition.”

I’d say leave it as it is now, but give it a good ICD to bring it in line with other active cleanses. It’s not exactly a passive trait, (at least, that part isn’t) so why treat it as such?

Why straight to 20s?

In most cases, a 10 second ICD is meaningless, since it can’t be activated more frequently than that anyway. ICD’s only mean anything if they actually prevent something from occurring. A 10 second ICD wouldn’t do that.

In addition, Cleansing Ire is far more efficient than any other condition-clearing trait in the entire game. Even at once per 10 seconds, it’s still incredibly efficient. The next most efficient one is Ranger’s Empathic Bond which transfers them to the pet instead of actually cleansing them. It’s also a Grandmaster trait instead of a Master. 3 conditions removed every 20 seconds is still 1.5 times more efficient than the “remove 1 condition every 10 seconds” traits that other professions have. Then there’s the fact that it would still be refilling your adrenaline every time you got hit. The trait does more than just make Warriors have godly cleansing abilities.

Even 20 seconds is still quite efficient. That amounts to the burst skill being a “remove 3 conditions and do awesome thing X” (unless it’s a Greatsword you’re on, but that burst skill needs another pass) on a 20 second cooldown. Heck, you can even use it without the cleanse while it’s on cooldown! A 3 condition cleanse on a 20 second cooldown is pretty decent for a skill, and the burst skills would be doing quite a bit more than just that functionality.

I agree that the Combustive Shot/Cleansing Ire combo is too strong, but outside of a total rework of Combustive Shot, it will always be the most efficient. Cleansing Ire, however, is still quite good even without a Longbow. It is not really that difficult to land a burst skill outside of Kill Shot. Yes, an opponent can counterplay it, but Warriors have enough threat skills available to bait out the defenses before going for the Burst. Even so, having the additional counterplay would reinforce the point that Warriors are actually supposed to be weak to condition overload after they spend their defenses.

First off, a disclaimer. I don’t main Warrior, I main necro. Yes, this does mean I have a biased opinion on this topic.

However, this is coming more from the Ready Up #16. Notably, the section where the developers mention intended Warrior weaknesses.

Now, most folks can agree that “weak at dealing with enemy boons” and “reliant on adrenaline” are, with current design, jokes of weaknesses. But the third one they mentioned “can be easily overloaded with conditions once their defenses run out” is real.

At least, it’s real in every build that doesn’t run Cleansing Ire. This one trait eliminates the biggest weakness Warriors are designed to have (and also drastically mitigates the joke weakness of adrenaline dependance). As such, does anyone feel it would be out of line to give the cleansing part a cooldown? Say, 20 seconds? It would still be a good trait, but it would not singlehandedly remove a designed weakness and remove the need to bring any condition removal skills (Warriors have them, including a full cleanse utility).

TLDR: Would adding a 20 second cooldown to Cleansing Ire’s cleanse be an unecessarily harsh nerf, or would it be justified and in line with ANet’s vision for the class?

gennyt.3428:

Direct damage builds having access to them isn’t the point. It’s the massively convenient combination of having the ability to be tanky with even furthur damage mitigation of these CCs and frequent, high tick passive damage, both with often buffed durations on the cheap.

No, it very much is the point. If those conditions are the problem, then the “problem” exists regarding every build. Boosting the duration “on the cheap?” Guess what every single profession’s Power trait line does? That’s right, boost condition duration!

“Convenience” has nothing to do with it. Condition builds do less damage than Power builds with equal investment into offensive stats. This probably shouldn’t be the case, but it is. However, because the condition damage is all over time, they need to be able to survive that time if they are to get kills. Thus, they need durability inherently. However, this also means that they will never match Zerker damage output because there is no “equal offensive investment” gear options for them. Even if there were, they still would rarely get kills as they would die long before their damage has a chance to work (and if they bursted conditions and left, they couldn’t do anything about the cleanse or heal completely denying them).

All passive damage comes from runes and, in only one case, traits (Reaper’s Protection on a Terror necro). Everything else is active. Controlled? Possibly not, but it is active. If you don’t take the hit, you don’t take any damage. Conditions are anything but “passive damage.”

I think ANET does know what they are talking about in the latest Ready Up, but many of the people here are misinterpreting it.

This episode was devoted primarily toward goals, not current status. And for goals, everything seemed to fit quite well.

The problem is when people assume that those goals have already been met. They haven’t.

For example, the Warrior weaknesses (which currently don’t mean anything):

• Unable to remove enemy boons.
  As they mentioned in the Ele portion, this will apparently become more important in PvE soon. That said, Warriors still generally don’t care about enemy boons because they’ll just power through them anyway. Truthfully, unless Retaliation becomes a heck of a lot more common, this will never be a realistic weakness.

• Reliance on Adrenaline for many abilities.
  Right now, this doesn’t even matter. Adrenaline builds very rapidly and it only gets reduced by the Warrior’s choice. If they changed how rapidly it built (it would have to be a massive nerf, though), this could be meaningful. If they added a natural degeneration mechanic even in combat, this could be much more meaningful. Drastically increasing the traits and skills that are modified by adrenaline level would make this more meaningful. Right now, it’s a joke. Warriors aren’t reliant on adrenaline, it’s just a bonus.

• Easily overwhelmed with conditions once their defenses expire.
  The only thing stopping this from being a true and meaningful weakness is Cleansing Ire. The trait needs a nerf, and a pretty major one. Adding a decent ICD (15-20 seconds) would probably be enough. Removing the adrenaline gain should also be looked at.

Sooo, what profession doesn’t also have access to cripple/chill/immobilize in a power build? Maybe Guardian, but they go with hard CC instead, usually.

Well, there still isn’t really any “control” going on (due to defiant and melee stacking), but support is.

Kain Francois.4328:

Cleaving wouldn’t make Necromancers any more useful against bosses. I don’t think that is the issue…

It’s an issue. Power builds are desired for bosses, and necros do pretty high single-target damage in Power builds. However, much of the dungeon is trash mobs where cleave is necessary. Necros lack that on Power builds.

Necro condition builds, on the other hand, will destroy trash mobs, but struggle against bosses.

Frankly, I’m with Bhawb on this one. Necros don’t need new mechanics, they need their current ones to synergize better (instead of fighting each other, like death shroud and any healing does now) and in general to just be stronger.

RashanDale.3609:

@Drarnor:
why only spectral walk? spectral armor should lose the ICD aswell. with adjusted LF gain, if needed.
either that, or there should be a separate ICD for every attacking enemy. would actually be better since it doesnt screw multi-hit attacks over so much.

Primarily to differentiate between Spectral Armor and Spectral Walk’s defensive benefits. With both having or lacking an ICD, one will always be better than the other.

With Spectral Armor being high life force gain on an ICD and Spectral Walk being lower gain, but with no restriction, they are both viable options that have their cases where they are the best to use.

LimitBreaker.4165:

Condi is the new meta, and honestly I feel like it takes no skill to play a condi build, I even tried it myself. Every time I fight a necro its like they have 3 sets of hp and just run around dropping condis and slowly waiting for you to die or a thief who just stabs condis on you and disappears then repeats it until you’re dead or an engi who constantly knocks you down or stuns you while bombarding you with condis and heals back to full health whenever he/she feels like and that is a load of bs…

Have you tried just killing them? Or perhaps running away? The necro and engie, at least, can’t catch you if you run.

DiazKincade.2891:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

~~3. Every Engie heal can be interrupted. The only healing skills that can’t are both on Warrior (Healing Signet because it never gets activated and Defiant Stance because it’s only getting interrupted with extreme luck).~~

Just thought I’d add that the mesmer signet is also like warrior signet. (if its used for a clones up build) Its typically only activated to add more phantasms. But even then that’s situational.

Perhaps, but it can also get “interrupted” by killing the clones off.

Maybe make Well of Power pulse Stability instead of just the 1 second at start? Trick there is that the 1 second kinda needs to stay there due to Focused Rituals.

Even though I suggested it, I’m not sold on Signet of Undeath working out of combat (though given we can easily get 20% life force any time we’re out of combat if not on a minion build, why not? At least this would take 20 seconds to generate that much). Drastically increasing the passive effect is important to bring it back from uselessness, though. Haven’t even put it on my skill bar in over a year.

I don’t think it’s necessary. For one, it would mean a lot of work. Two, it would infringe far too much on Engineer territory (effectively getting 2 skills for every equipped utility).

It seems the devs aren’t quite on the same page as us on this topic, but what changes to existing skills or traits would you guys like to see to help us in this regard? Please keep the ideas reasonable.

For example, here are mine:

• Parasitic Bond, Parasitic Contagion, Vampiric Precision, Vampiric, Vampiric Master, Vampiric Rituals, and the Regeneration boon function normally while in Death Shroud.
• Withering Precision gets reverted to “25% chance on critical to cause weakness” with no ICD. Duration being dropped to 2 or 3 seconds base from the former 5 seconds.
• Signet of Undeath passive becomes “gain 1% life force per second” and continues to function outside of combat.
• Signet of the Locust gets its cooldown reduced to 30 seconds.
• Signet of Vampirism loses it’s ICD’s (both passive and active). Alternatively, passive has a “per attacker” ICD and becomes a siphon.
• Spectral Walk loses its ICD on life force gain.
• Siphoning traits get actual scaling instead of the joke .4% they have now.

emendez.3705:

I’ve faced an ele that had diamond skin and i didnt have a chance being condition bunker build he took hardly any damage and I died. I’m sure there are ways to work around it with different sigils or runes or different skill rotations. But lets face it not all builds are viable vs ALL other builds and thats something we all have to deal with. So if you want to be able to kill a diamond skin ele change your build but if you dont want to avoid those kind of eles.

The thing is, that kind of shutdown happens with literally no other specs in the entire game. A Zerker thief may have a really tough time against a bunker Guardian, but it’s possible for him to win through outplaying.

Condition necro vs. Diamond Skin Ele? You can’t outplay constant immunity. You could have the top Necro in the world on the condition necro and some guy who had never played the game before on the Ele who was told to “just hit ‘a’ and ‘d’ to keep the other guy on screen and press ‘1’” fight each other, and I would seriously be betting on the ele.

It’s one thing to have a big advantage over another build. It’s another to be guaranteed a win in the matchup because they literally can’t do anything to you.

Xillllix.3485:

From what I understand condition damage bypass the toughness stat.

If weakness could do the same for berserker build (example: elementalist air 5 trait): Instead of adding a small % increase to damage it could make attacks pierce through the armor rating.

It could balance things or at the very least create a new counter-meta.

No, it would break Vulnerability (I think you meant that, not Weakness) wide open.

Let’s say you got lucky in PvP and had your 500 damage hit pierce the armor rating against a Necro with no investment into Toughness (so 1804 armor). Now, normally, that’s a pathetically tiny hit that the necro wouldn’t really even register. However, if it ignored the target’s armor, that mere 500 damage would explode into a 902,000 damage hit. Literally no spec in the game could survive that and even most PvE bosses would be nearly one-shotted.

Cynz.9437:

tl/dr: condis builds offer too much advantage, anet favors condi tanks too much imo.

2 problems with condis imo:
1. you can build tank and still do absurd dmg via condis
2. controll that condis offer and how easy they are to apply is rather silly

Imagine if every heartseeker from thief would apply 30 sec cripple and chill.
Imagine if every backstab would apply 5 stacks of bleeding and 20 sec of burning.
Imagine if every cnd applied 5 stacks of confusion.
Just as an example. Suddenly fighting direct dmg builds wouldn’t be so funny anymore.

It wouldn’t be, but going with values that literally no skill in the game can replicate is pointless hyperbole and actually weakens your argument.

Yet for w/e reason it is fine that condis do almost as much dmg as direct builds, characters can still build tank, many have high heals or/and high mobility on top of it as well as wide amount of hard CC (engis, i am looking at you).

Ever crunched the numbers? What you find may surprise you (Soldier’s Gear out-damages Dire, for example).

A 5 year old can tell you that if 2 characters did same dmg, the tankier one would win…Yet anet keeps buffing condi tanks while nerfing direct dmg builds as much as possible…

Perhaps because the tankier one is so far behind in damage that it’s still quite fair?

Not to mention how any kind of pvp (tpvp or wvw) in this game heavily favors bunkers.

Only true in sPvP/tPvP. WvW doesn’t favor bunkers so much as AoE damage and CC.

This game’s balance is worse than ever, it promotes mindless spam while sitting afk and face tanking all dmg… terrible trade off concept or rather none at all. What happend to logic and common sense?

WoW had terrible pvp balance, but even WoW devs knew that giving tanks high dmg is stupid idea.

The balance seems pretty good to me, outside of a couple builds (Strength Runes Hambow, for example). Strangely, the “tank builds that do tons of damage” are primarily Power based builds.

Now we have engineers that can build tank, spam every posssible condi in game, loaded with CC, with pets (hi turrets with reflects, REALLY???) and amazing heals (can’t be interrupted)… the only thing they are missing is perma stealth…

Really? I don’t even main engineer and I can tell you that you’re flat-out wrong.

1. Fear access? Right, they have none. Same with Torment. Their conditions follow predictable rotations and most can be avoided by holding “w,” “e,” or “q.”

2. If they’re running turrets, their actual condition application kinda sucks. They have decent CC, but not that hot on the actual damage. Turrets are pretty easy to kite, just remember to dodge that net that comes once every 10 seconds (like you want to with any immobilize).

3. Every Engie heal can be interrupted. The only healing skills that can’t are both on Warrior (Healing Signet because it never gets activated and Defiant Stance because it’s only getting interrupted with extreme luck).

When players made FC for dueling, there was reason certain spells like engi crate and full tank were fobidden in fights, you would think anet devs would use that info… but naaaaaah let’s buff condi tanks even more~

Because those rules weren’t widespread? Those may have been things that you or some of your friends personally asked for, but the WvW FC was incredibly varied with no real structure.

I have to say that you guys seem to be a little off on Necromancers and sustain right now. Necromancers are actually weaker as the fight wears on because they cannot replenish their actual health well. Because Death Shroud decays naturally, they can’t hide in death shroud for extended periods of time in a fight and the damage they take in between sticks. It sticks really hard.

Yes, they gain life force, but in the time it takes them to gain enough life force to matter, they’ve lost a very significant amount of health that they can’t recoup outside of the healing skill. There are a number of reasons why Consume Conditions is the only Healing skill that necros really use (and it’s a great heal), but the primary one is that you can’t waste its effects entirely due to death shroud.

In addition, the life force disappears really quickly due to the lack of evades/blocks/invulnerabilities/Protection). We may have more sustain than a Thief or Mesmer, but that’s honestly not saying a whole lot.

Muchacho.2390:

Bhawb.7408:

They didn’t at all say that everything was okay. They specifically mentioned that they might bring Deathshroud up to better fill that sustain.

I may have misheard but i dont recall them saying that.

Infact from what i heard, is that, they have the opinion that necromancers already have good sustain.
I may playing necromancer completly wrong but normally the longer a fight goes the more likely it is for me too lose. So i would disagree with thier statement.

This is what I heard as well. The devs seem to think Necro sustain is already pretty strong and that life force goes up a lot more often than down in fights. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. We barely stand a chance if we’re not close to full life force at the start of a fight and in the time it takes to replenish it, we lose too much health.

haviz.1340:

Mobs that reapply their boons should be cc’d so they can’t do it immediately after stripping. I constantly hear how cc is useless though.

Can you CC the boons from Battle Standard (how Aetherblades get their boons)? What about HotW p1 boss? No, you can’t. Dredge spam it from multiples at once, so CC is also ineffective.

No other enemy in the game uses boons, really.

Remember that Red faction on EotM is EVERY Red team in NA.

Bhawb.7408:

Also note that it is a stealth attack. Compare it to backstab (an instant 10k damage), and all of a sudden it really isn’t all that unreasonable.

Damage is very comparable between the two damage sources. One is countered by certain mechanics, the other is countered by different ones.

And both are countered by just avoiding the attack in the first place.

I’d rather a Fear over a stack of Bleed and Torment, personally.

Jerus.4350:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jerus.4350:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Here is what needs fixing in one clear picture. Conditions, and the way PVE bosses are designed for it. Create a solution for the condition cap, so conditions are on par with direct damage. And don’t take the lazy way out by making every single boss completely immune or resistant for conditions and control skills, while direct damage is just fine.

That is exactly what is turning this game’s combat into a boring game of whack-a-mole.

What about hte fact that Direct damage is based on 3 stats (power, precision, and ferocity) where condition is just condition damage? I’d think that would need to be addressed if they want to have conditions and direct damage equivalent potentials.

Because Condition Damage is based on Condition Damage, Condition Duration, and Precision (for more stacks).

Is it affected by Precision, I admit I’m a bit noobish, especially when it comes to conditions? And condition duration isn’t a gear stat unless I’m mistaken.

Basically to max power builds you need 3 stat gear focused on that. With Condition gear you get secondary stats. I think that is enough to say that the potential shouldn’t be the same.

And it isn’t. Even with +100% duration on all conditions and max condition damage, Condition builds still do not out-damage Zerker builds. What we’re getting at is the massive discrepancy of Condition builds in PvE where the stack cap screws them.

Power builds, you have 1+1=2, and 1+1+1+1+1=5. Condition builds, you have 1+1=1.1 and 1+1+1+1+1=1.1.

Jerus.4350:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Here is what needs fixing in one clear picture. Conditions, and the way PVE bosses are designed for it. Create a solution for the condition cap, so conditions are on par with direct damage. And don’t take the lazy way out by making every single boss completely immune or resistant for conditions and control skills, while direct damage is just fine.

That is exactly what is turning this game’s combat into a boring game of whack-a-mole.

What about hte fact that Direct damage is based on 3 stats (power, precision, and ferocity) where condition is just condition damage? I’d think that would need to be addressed if they want to have conditions and direct damage equivalent potentials.

Because Condition Damage is based on Condition Damage, Condition Duration, and Precision (for more stacks).

Alkaholic.3875:

OK, I’ll simplify this to sPvP gear alone…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpdrlYxvLseNCbBByOsBRmlq85DEgkC-TJhAwAUeAAw2fgcZAAnAAA

5K dmg from IP proc, not even bringing up any other proc. A grenadeer traited nade auto attack will proc IP, Shrapnel, etc. I think this condi argument is only valid in 1v1s and as such, don’t care if anything is done about it but let’s not act like it’s inconsequential…

Cool, you can, 6.6% of the time, get 6705 condition damage off of a Grenade attack (proccing Shrapnel, Sharpshooter, and Incindiary Powder all at the same time). That’s…rather meaningless overall. You can take a single crit that procs one sigil and take that much easy from a Power build (say Axe Warrior or meditation Guardian), and that will happen much more frequently due to higher “on crit” chances.

Oh, and that damage still won’t actually happen because of tick timers. It will be lower, even in the best-case scenario.

Alkaholic.3875:

Ummmm, I got to the part of the thread that talks about 2k dmg in 10 secs off one condi auto attack but let’s see. W/ this outdated build and one auto attack crit, u’ll do over 10K dmg if the person doesn’t clear the condi[s].

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpdrlYxvLseNCbBByOsBRmlq85DEgkC-TFyCABAcgAOZ/BsU+d8JAAQ9Eeq+z0PAgxUCSKAYWWB-w

No it won’t. The build editor doesn’t recognize the +100% condition duration cap, so every damaging condition will deal less damage than is listed there.

Liewec.2896:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Stop using Barrage

^ good luck with that XD, once its fired its fired, if a guardian puts retaliation on his whole group you’re in trouble :P

that being said there are very few skills like Barrage which can’t be stopped,
so anyone taking ridiculous amounts of retal damage probably deserves it for mindlessly spamming aoe.

You can still break the channel off early. If you do, the damage immediately stops.

If the channel has completed and someone pops Retaliation? Well, it’s just a few hits. AoE retaliation can, and will, still hurt, but it shouldn’t do too much for that duration.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/My-5-Gambit-Build/first#post4059232

Deadeye Dunwell. And it works Got him first try.

Sigil of Air+Fire. Easily hits over 5k damage every 10 seconds.

Dhuumfire only procs on Life Blast now. Don’t try to pass it off as a “random, uncounterable” proc.

Stop using Barrage and Rapid Fire on guys with Retaliation. It’s amazing how little of a threat it becomes.

Linnael.1069:

Bhawb.7408:

Linnael.1069:

2k over ten seconds is laughable. Learn about some condition builds.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArImgYokC0clRHAWAA-TJRAwAAOBAKeAAM3focZAA

You were saying? No one even runs that build, but that is a very high condition damage and its only 2k for an auto attack over 10 seconds.

I can pick out an infinite number of builds nobody runs that only do 2k condition damage per autoattack. Generally, trying to be knowledgeable in a conversation like this demands that you know the builds people do run. Like really, I have no idea what you’re even trying to prove now, and even less of an idea why i’m still responding to these things

The build he chose was also set up to maximize the damage from said auto-attack. It still didn’t even reach 2k over 11 seconds.

If the maximized auto-damage build isn’t reaching 2k over 10 seconds, how the hell is anyone getting higher on a condition build?

Tyops.5894:

How about you respect the contributions of the thousands of players who have spent thousands of hours posting to the class forums, do your home work, and read your own forums. Everything you want is there ten times over.

This approach (along with the CDI) may appear inclusive but in fact it disregards all the information that has been shared with you by players who have quit or temporarily left the game. One might think that their insights would be valuable.

Or, it’s compiling it all into one, easy-to-read spot for reference before and during the stream. It’s not like these guys don’t have a lot to do besides reading the forums and trying to separate the whining from the well backed complaints.

For Necro, I would say the weaknesses are a lack of burst ability and a lack of escapes. Situations that force them to “play defensively” should not be kind to them. Strengths should be very potent active sustain (it is the designated “attrition class”) and constant, sustained pressure while being very resilient to the same.

This comes from Necro’s lore position as practitioners of Aggression magic. If you don’t stop a nero from being aggressive, he should be the biggest pain you have ever faced.

Right now, what’s really missing is the “active sustain.” It’s on the weak side, primarily because only life force can be replenished with any sort of ease. Real health also needs to be easily restored when built for it.

Rock Dogs, Minions, Ranger Pets, Spirit Weapons, and Turrets do NOT reveal a stealthed master. They never have.

Rym.1469:

^ for Necros alone.

And around 13-14 second fear avalible to Rangers. It’s spreadable via Epidemic and procs Terror also.

No, just 6 seconds. Wolf is their only access to Fear, so they can’t chain it, and their condition duration stat doesn’t affect it because it’s from their pet. The tooltips are bugged, though.

I suppose if you wanted to get into fear chaining, it would be 100% fear duration with a hypothetical 1 second stun or daze proccing both Nightmare runes and Reaper’s Protection (2 second base each, increased to 4 seconds each for 8 seconds total), followed by a sub-600 range Doom (3 seconds), then Reaper’s Mark (2 seconds) into Spectral Wall (+2 seconds). 15 seconds of continuous Fear is possible (and even more if they gain stability while Feared, but don’t stunbreak, and that gets corrupted, but this has to happen after 4 seconds have passed or the stack limit interferes).

For necros? 4 seconds. Reaper’s protection/Downed state Fear with +100% fear duration.

Doable by players? 6 seconds from Rangers using Malicious Training and Moment of Clarity with a Wolf pet. Alternatively, from a Warrior using “Fear Me!” or Thief using a stolen skull at <200 range with +100% fear duration.

Aberrant.6749:

“A straw man, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. "

You heavily implied that I was saying those builds were… and then used them as an argument against what I was saying.

Well, when you quote me talking about those builds, then make an argument based on the quote and add on an example of your own, at what point did you cease referencing the same things I was?

You’re also stuck on the word “no” when the OP obviously meant low (and I never made that claim of no skill either).

Seems like you’re just trying to avoid the root problem that too much rubbish is too effective for the skill required to use it due to ai/passive buffs and active playstyle nerfs.

I’m saying the “root problem” doesn’t exist. Those builds are effective at the lower tiers, much like the “noob toob”. Better players quickly move on because those builds are only good at the lower tiers. Every build listed in the OP is easy to beat. The users of those builds can do things to increase the difficulty, but ultimately, they all have a low skill ceiling. All AI builds have a low skill ceiling because the player cannot directly control what their phantasms/minions/turrets are doing. The Phantasm builds have a higher skill ceiling only because they aren’t reliant on having so many utility skills locked up in it, so once their phantasms are all up (usually one weapon skill and one utility, or two weapon skills and no utilities), they can still do quite a bit. Minion Masters and Turret builds don’t have that option.

Aberrant.6749:

I like how you skipped over the part where I put in ex war to make a strawman argument. Brilliant.

No Strawman involved. Learn your argumentative fallicies.

I also admitted that there were some builds that broke the mold. Hambow triple-stance Warriors are the only Warrior build I’m aware of that gives such a reward for such low risk. It can still very easily be played poorly, showing that there is, indeed, a decent skill floor to the build. It is highly effective and does not require as much skill as it probably should, but to say it is a “no skill” build is either a lie or blatant ignorance.

First off, a disclaimer. I do not play an Ele much. While I have a character of each class, only my ele and thief are not yet level 30 (and probably won’t be for some time). I primarily play necro.

But, I can see that there are a few things they really do need. I won’t be listing them in any particular order, so do not think this is some person’s warped priority.

1. Shorter weapon cooldowns

Right now, the trait and weapon design of eles conflict with each other. Eles have many traits that give benefits based on staying in a particular attunement, but the weapon cooldowns force frequent swaps just to keep up with combat. I advocate for shortening some of the weapon cooldowns slightly to make staying in one attunement a more viable option. This is a tough issue, though, as it can’t just be an “across the board” change. For example, Ring of Fire is perfect where it is on cooldown, but Ride the Lightning is not. Fire Grab is probably fine (very potent burst), but Updraft is, well, lackluster.

Also, could we please swap Churning Earth to the #4 slot and Earthquake to #5? Just makes more sense with the cooldowns the way they are.

2. Chill.

Eles need to be less susceptible to Chill. No other profession has their “weapon swap” so affected (well, Engineers do, but that extra .6 seconds doesn’t get noticed except in extremely rare circumstances). Granted, if Attunements were no longer affected by Chill, they would be the only profession mechanic to escape the condition. I feel this is a small tradeoff, however, that would, in the long run, lead to a more healthily balanced ele.

3. Trait reworks.
The big one is Diamond Skin. I know it’s already been reworked to its current functionality, but it needs another pass. No other trait in the game is this binary in function. It either all but guarantees you a win against some condition builds before even accounting for relative skill, or it means jack squat. Even Power builds use conditions (vulnerability, weakness, and cripples are most common, but also chills, fears and immobilize, and even poison in the case of D/X thieves), but as it works right now, Diamond Skin does nothing against them. Making it more meaningful against Power builds and giving opportunities for Condition builds to get past it would make this a much better trait. Depending on how it was implemented, it could also promote more skillful and active play.

If anyone has suggestions for other poorly designed traits, please say so.

4. Improved Utilities
Glyphs are pretty universally terrible and of the utility conjures, I only ever see Ice Bow. I don’t even know what the Earth Shield does because I never see it used. Truthfully, this point can actually be applied to all eight professions. Everyone has utility skills that are just bad. I’d love to see them get brought up in usefulness to generate more build variety.

5. Improved elites
Well, sorta. The main thing here is that ele elites all have one quirk about them that kinda ruins the skill. Tornado flings your enemies so far away that they really only fear you if they have Stability (go figure). Glyph of Elementals are generally easily kited and negated (and/or killed, in the case of Fire and Air). Firey Greatsword is great, but with how reliant Eles are on their weapon skills, it can very easily turn bad for them to keep using it. A couple of tweaks can help this problem.

Aberrant.6749:

…that’s like saying while class/build/character X is easy to use it can be srsly abused when played to the full extent.

I think you’re sort of missing the point… builds which are easy to use are too strong. The easier something is to use the less effective it should be at the higher end. This is why new players will use the noob tube in COD, but you wouldn’t ever see it in a tournament.

Gw2 on the other hand… you see easy to use builds just about everywhere (ex wars).

Really now? Show me the Blackwater Mesmer builds in high-end PvP. Same thing with Minion Master necros, turret engies, and Beastmaster Rangers.

Having problems? Because they fit exactly the same paradigm as the “noob toob” in CoD. Easy to use, but not that effective against people that are actually skilled. Blackwater Mesmers are possibly the exception, but even that skill ceiling is comparatively low compared to other builds.

Belzebu.3912:

Yeah, rangers got the CDI but so far nothing from there was implemented or properly discussed for that matter …
I think another class CDI will only happen after at least the devs list what will be done with rangers, not even need to be implemented, just a list of future changes would be enough.

A couple things were. Pet responsiveness was brought up massively, and that was a huge issue. In addition, Survival of the Fittest gave them active condition removal, which was another point brought up. Read the Wind also was introduced to address a concern brought up in there (longbow damage not being reliable, didn’t say it was addressed well). Poison Master was yet another thing that came up in the Ranger CDI.

Were all of the issues tackled? No, but to say that “nothing has come of it” is demonstrably false. The process also isn’t over as some of the things discussed would take significantly more time to develop and test.

Terrahero.9358:

Maybe stop hugging Turrets that are about to die?

But I like turrets! They’re so adorable!
/sarcasm

Pros: Pretty strong damage, innately survivable due to massive health pool and death shroud (use it!), only class with innate access to five different conditions (including one hard CC) can operate well at almost any range.

Cons: Sustain is overall a weak point and extremely susceptible to CC. Not very forgiving against one-shot mechanics due to lack of avoidance. Group support is fairly weak.

In PvE, the necro really sucks. The things that the class is good or great at just don’t matter there. However, this is an issue with enemy design and not the necro himself. Open world PvE doesn’t matter, but in dungeons, don’t be too surprised if you get some hostility because you play a necro.

In PvP, necros are really strong against less organized teams, but fall apart almost instantly against more organized ones. In team arenas, they need to justify not only their own spot, but also the spot of someone to peel for them. They can be good, but the team needs to build around them.

In WvW, necros form a part of the zerg backbone. They are THE anti-zerg class with wells, Spectral Wall, Epidemic, Plague, and more. Well of Corruption dropped on a boon-stacking zerg can wreck them and a surprise Chilling Darkness Plague (easier than you would think to pull off) provides your allies with very strong AoE shutdown. They can also roam decently, but you have to keep a very keen eye on your surroundings as you can’t escape if things go south.

Thief and Ele are the two highest single-target DPS. Necro is #3 after them. I think Warrior is actually #5 after mesmer, but for AoE, they’re #2 (after Ele). Necro jumps up to #2 if he’s using Lich Form, but otherwise is down significantly lower.

While Ele has the highest DPS both on single target and AoE, they do have to swap weapons out of combat. A single target DPS build is pretty lousy at AoE and vice-versa.

Considering the “condition meta” never actually existed…

I did not say they take much skill to pull off at the basic level, but they do still take skill. On some of those builds (especially MM necro), the skill cap is also quite low. On others, the skill floor is low, but the cap is high. Phantasm Mesmer builds may be simple to run at a basic level, but high-caliber players can turn them into monsters capable of wrecking just about anyone.

Regardless, they all take skill to execute properly and continuously win with. There really is no such thing as a “no skill” build.

Spoken like a true Bronze V player. Oh wait, wrong game. We don’t have leagues.

Every single one of the builds you mentioned may seem like it takes no skill, but it does. If you ran into a player that knows the build well enough and you just started PvP (which it sounds like, since you listed off such a variety of builds that only newbies fall to), you will get your face wrecked hard. This is not a case of the build being “too easy” or “OP”, but a case of where you got massively outplayed.

Class balance in this game is extremely good. There are a couple builds that are outliers on power (Hambow Warriors, celestial D/D eles, both of which are fueled primarily by Strength Runes right now) and some things that need fixing because they don’t work (Necromancer’s class mechanic rendering most of their Blood Magic traitline useless, for example), but the actual balance is very good.

alamore.1974:

Wells have great support abilities if you know how to.use them, boon removal, condi cleanse, even damage, healing (allies included)

I’m ganna toy with one.of.my builds, make it have mad support abilities, we will.

How much of those support options mean anything at all in PvE?

Conditions and boons are scarce in PvE. Boons are even worse because when they do show up, they are spammed with such frequency that removal means nothing. So, that’s two of the strongest points for necros that ultimately mean jack squat.

Then there’s weakness/blind/chill/and control in general. The only things worth using them on are the bosses which are effectively immune to everything but chill and many of the bosses show no real effect from chill. Control builds period are a waste in PvE because of horrid boss design. That’s a third necro strong point that is worthless in PvE.

Necro group healing is very strong. I will happily admit that. It’s also unnecessary in PvE because it is so easy to take very little damage anyway. Point #4 gone.

Now we get to damage. Fun fact: Necros are not top-tier DPS. Our single target capabilities might be great, but the complete lack of cleave means that we don’t handle trash mobs that well on power builds. Condition builds, the trash mobs melt, but the bosses are a really rough time because their “defenses” favor Power so much more heavily.

So, out of numerous strong points that a Necro has to offer, only one of them is even relevant for PvE, and the necro is not the top in that area either. Why bring a Necro that does the third highest single target DPS when you could bring a Warrior that brings the fourth highest single target, second highest AoE, and still brings group buffing to boost everyone up higher?