Guild Wars 2

Bhawb.7408:

Lorelei.3918:

No not without some way to actively remove condis while in DS. Otherwise you are going to get overloaded with conditions too fast.

It’d become a trait you could only use with things like Plague signet or Consume conditions. You’d have so many conditions on you you’d need a near full removal.

And god forbid you pull something like fear and chain fear yourself to death. Although I guess that’d be pretty funny.

Reminds me of when I was helping a friend through the Battle of Claw Island personal story step and had equipped Plague Signet. It decided to pull immedietly after the dragon did its fear roar, so I went running for about 10 seconds or so. Got back just in time to repeat that scene perfectly -.-

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

As a full condition necro in sPvP a single DS ele can completely shut me down. Anyone saying that you can just just this skill or that skill has clearly never actually faced a DS ele.

They heal nearly 500/s and heal again every time they hurt you. I’ve had an ele literally just stand there in one spot without moving while I used every CD, every utility and all my death shroud skills on him and he ended up at 99% health. The cast time on our weapons is enough for them to heal to full between each cast. He never has to swap out of water attunment because you literally can’t hurt him. Even if they are only doing 100dps you will still lose.

maybe change builds? If your build doesn’t work and mine does then its not your opponents fault or is it?
But I do agree, it’d be kinda tricky even with my hybrid necro let alone with a full-condi one.

Need to try out more things, do more research and eventually we’ll find some way to overcome the DS hurdle.

Because your build doesn’t really work against DS eles. It requires the damage multipliers from having conditions on the target to deal enough damage to break DS. In other words, you require conditions on him to deal enough direct damage to apply conditions to him in the first place.

with the conditions applied it does do 50% more damage but it’ll still knock ’m out of his DS but only barely… What does help is the Dagger no. 4 bounce. It bounces very fast and should be able to take ’m out of DS more easily.

Explain to me how it bounces with only one target?

Truthfully, your lack of knowledge is astounding and makes it extremely difficult to take you seriously.

WvW they can sometimes work for roaming, especially if you stick around the north end of the borderlands where there isn’t much for them to get hung up on for pathing. Other than that, forget it.

The ability to rally off of siege shouldn’t even exist.

NPC’s, fine, but not siege or objects.

Well, Necros have the best quality of cleanses, not the best frequency of cleanses. Heck, necros are still the only profession that lets you hold off on your cleanses for as long as possible because they all do something with the conditions you get rid of.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

As a full condition necro in sPvP a single DS ele can completely shut me down. Anyone saying that you can just just this skill or that skill has clearly never actually faced a DS ele.

They heal nearly 500/s and heal again every time they hurt you. I’ve had an ele literally just stand there in one spot without moving while I used every CD, every utility and all my death shroud skills on him and he ended up at 99% health. The cast time on our weapons is enough for them to heal to full between each cast. He never has to swap out of water attunment because you literally can’t hurt him. Even if they are only doing 100dps you will still lose.

maybe change builds? If your build doesn’t work and mine does then its not your opponents fault or is it?
But I do agree, it’d be kinda tricky even with my hybrid necro let alone with a full-condi one.

Need to try out more things, do more research and eventually we’ll find some way to overcome the DS hurdle.

Because your build doesn’t really work against DS eles. It requires the damage multipliers from having conditions on the target to deal enough damage to break DS. In other words, you require conditions on him to deal enough direct damage to apply conditions to him in the first place.

Yeah…testing against the NPC means jack squat since they don’t have any traits or (apparently) a heal skill/utilities. I’m not even sure if the ele one switches attunements (it might).

Necros are really only broken in that they counter some of their own mechanics. I’m not even referring to Necro vs Necro, I’m referring to A Necro. Singular.

Using Death Shroud hard counters their own traits in Blood Magic and a couple in Spite. Kinda broken (as in, doesn’t work) there.

DrDivine.5378:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I think its more due to the fact that you aren’t really doing anything. Just like Mesmer and Phantasms. They are just summon and forget. Sure you have the special attack but other than that its just let them run wild.

Yeah I can see that argument, isn’t the basic idea to just overwhelm your enemy with AI minions and conditions?

Less so with conditions (most MM conditions come from the minions themselves), and really, minions don’t overwhelm. They just provide a steady stream of damage until their target buckles. The fact that the Necro getting CC’d doesn’t stop the minions at all also helps in that regard, but what kills you in a minion build is that you can’t simply out-tank all of the minions and the necro. None of them have heavy hits to dodge (save Charge), but just keep up a steady stream of damage.

Now, if you don’t try to out-tank the minions, you find MM’s rather easy to fight. The only fight I’ve lost to a MM in PvP was one where I was going for the trebuchet on Khylo instead of the MM manning it. Surprisingly, my Flesh Golem kept whacking at the treb while I kept the other necro (and minions) back. I could not get that to happen again if I tried, I’m sure.

Omnitek.3876:

Necros trying to get a ele GM trait reworked because it is terrible or because it counters your build? I still don’t have a problem on my necro with it. I adapt and use lich or more DS.

I see why you have a problem and want it reworked. Most of us don’t see it as a problem and don’t think it needs a rework. Eventually, sure, but there are more pressing issues that deserve the time over a once a week thing.

Oh, no question there are bigger priorities. Again, I never stated that Diamond Skin was near the top of things that need to be changed.

But it does need to be reworked.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

We could also start talking about Lich form… I betcha that even with a condi spec you can still get the eles health down enough to begin apply conditions on them.
May I also note that the ele has light armor and the lowest base hp in the game. Without our sustained healing and gimmick traits we’re wet noodles.

Sooo, why were eles pretty successful before Diamond Skin got introduced? Oh wait, because the gimmick traits aren’t necessary!

I don’t see why eles are so against Diamond Skin becoming something that’s not a gimmick and actually useable. Yet every complaint thread about it being badly designed has them rushing to defend it, saying “it’s terrible.” If it’s so terrible, why are you against a redesign?

Elementalist were horrible in any form of pvp before the 15 april patch. That was the sole reason that I started playing alts. I put aside my ele after 1300 hours. Then I roled necromancer in pvp. It was sooo sad.

But I must admit, playing against and elementalist with all his jumping around seemed pretty annoying when I play necromancer. But when you can get them out of their diamond skin perk with one single hit… Honestly I don’t know what you’re qqing about.

What one single hit, pray tell?

In a PvP Carrion build with 4 points in Spite, using a staff, Life Blast close range will hit for 808 damage on average against the absolute minimum armor an ele with DS can have (in other words, 6 points in Earth magic and no Toughness at all from runes, specific traits, or amulet). That’s less than half of what they need to break DS, and that build is pretty heavy on Power for a condition build. Before the second life blast hits, the ele will heal up about 500 of that if in water attunement (only about 300 otherwise). This is without investment into Healing Power past 2 points in Water Magic.

So, assuming the ele is NOT sitting in water attunement, simply standing there and auto-attacking, it requires the necro to land 3 Life Blasts just to break DS, and at least one more to make it not garunteed that the ele is above 90% again when he makes his next attack. This is using the highest-damage Power-based attack the condition necro has (I am purposely ignoring Lich Form because of its elite status and the fact that avoiding its attacks is extremely easy).

Best case scenario and it still takes 4, slow-casting attacks to just get past one trait and signet before accounting for gear or action on the elementalist’s part .

Sure, you can say “just reduce the healing with poison.” Which would work…if they weren’t immune to Poison.

Even with Power as a secondary stat, a condition necro cannot feasibly break through Diamond Skin. One trait matters more than any semblence of skill on either player’s part. To make matters worse, the same trait that guarantees a win against them does barely anything at all against anyone else.

It needs a rework. Badly.

Everyone saying “just deal 2k damage” is forgetting that the ele is doing something to stay above 90%, namely constant healing. If they didn’t have that, it would be easy. Since they do, it’s impossible (they out-heal the direct damage).

Dealing enough damage is no obstacle. Doing it fast enough and keeping them below 90% is.

To give you a hint, a full Zerker necro attacking with scepter still gets about half of the damage from the 0 condition damage bleeds and poison.

Omnitek.3876:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

We could also start talking about Lich form… I betcha that even with a condi spec you can still get the eles health down enough to begin apply conditions on them.
May I also note that the ele has light armor and the lowest base hp in the game. Without our sustained healing and gimmick traits we’re wet noodles.

Sooo, why were eles pretty successful before Diamond Skin got introduced? Oh wait, because the gimmick traits aren’t necessary!

I don’t see why eles are so against Diamond Skin becoming something that’s not a gimmick and actually useable. Yet every complaint thread about it being badly designed has them rushing to defend it, saying “it’s terrible.” If it’s so terrible, why are you against a redesign?

What game type are you referring to that eles are great(lol been over a year since that was true. Rune change helped a bit though.) and you always fight DS eles? There seems to be a few ppl talking spvp and a few talking wvw. They are a different beast, but still there are almost no eles that run DS in either. I don’t think it is an issue.

Did I ever state that I “always fight DS eles?” No. I’ve been saying all along that the trait is terrible design, not that I see it often. Why do I not see it often? Because it’s terrible design and needs a rework. Eles were good before Diamond Skin (perhaps not great right before, but they were still decent) and the best builds now don’t use it either.

So, why, when I call for a rework, do eles rush to defend it’s current state by saying “it’s terrible?” They should be agreeing with me on that basis!

Bhawb.7408:

2. Yes. You could consider teleports, high damage CC (fear/hammer warriors for example), and similar mechanics being similar, if not a bit better since stealth doesn’t actually defend you, only make you untargetable.

Almost true. I checked and being untargetable makes you completely immune to over 50 (IIRC, I know it was over 30) profession skills in the game, most of which are on Necro and Mesmer. Then there’s the functional immunity stealth grants from projectiles, small radius AoE around a target, and AI (not true immunity to most of these, but getting hit is dumb luck on your attacker’s part).

Scythe I could see on Rangers as well, as the farming tool is probably most thematic on them after necros. Would probably fill the role of a control weapon for them.

pierwola.9602:

Bhawb.7408:

They can function in absolutely different ways. Focus off-hand is used for single target debuffing, torch could be used for AoE control and denial, for example through an ice field that applied very short durations of chill while you were in it.

So another warhorn.

No. Warhorn is a melee sustain and chasing weapon. An ice field pulsing chill plus whatever other skill a Torch has would probably be ranged, or affect much larger areas, but not providing much in the way of sustain.

Waffler.1257:

can i hav rocket launcher 4 necro?

Play a Charr. We have rockets galore.

pierwola.9602:

Bhawb.7408:

We also have a chill on Dark Path, does that mean they are the same skill and focus shouldn’t exist?

I mean that we don’t need 2 off-hand weapons with chill.

It’s easy enough to do. Spinal Shivers is used primarily for the boon stripping, not the chill. Torch could have AoE chill as well, which necros really could use.

Narkodx.1472:

EDIT – In the OP you said you had 1500-1900 toughness. You run with even LESS than that. LOL

Remember: Toughness =/= Armor. Celestial amulet necro has 2238 armor before traits or runes.

Still not very high, but nowhere near as low as you seem to be thinking it is.

@bigmonto: I’d love to see the Necro build that between regular health and death shroud can hit 50k health. 40k requires full Ascended Sentinels armor and weapons, Soldier’s amulet, back, rings, and trinkets, Vitality infusions in every single slot, and 6 points in Blood Magic and Soul Reaping. Very much impossible for PvP.

haviz.1340:

How did anet changed reflections mechanics? I can’t find anything.

A number of bosses just ignore them. That’s how.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

We could also start talking about Lich form… I betcha that even with a condi spec you can still get the eles health down enough to begin apply conditions on them.
May I also note that the ele has light armor and the lowest base hp in the game. Without our sustained healing and gimmick traits we’re wet noodles.

Sooo, why were eles pretty successful before Diamond Skin got introduced? Oh wait, because the gimmick traits aren’t necessary!

I don’t see why eles are so against Diamond Skin becoming something that’s not a gimmick and actually useable. Yet every complaint thread about it being badly designed has them rushing to defend it, saying “it’s terrible.” If it’s so terrible, why are you against a redesign?

Dual.8953:

With regards to the worm, they’ve made it pretty clear they don’t want us to be able to prevent the larva eggs from spawning. So with that in mind how could they have kept that functionality of the attack without getting rid of the reflects? The reflects prevent the eggs from spawning so they ‘d need a new projectile that behaves like a projectile but obviously can’t be reflected.

Have the eggs emerge from the ground. We know the wurm is mostly underground anyway, so it makes sense.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

To be fair, this is a ele specifically setup to hose you. Perhaps the trait is too strong, I’m not fit to judge as I’ve never played condi PvP but combined with the -condi food it’s clear they’re using a niche build to try to specifically stop you. In a real PvP situation this would mean backing off or calling for support to take them out, similar to how you would handle tougher bunker builds.

I don’t think the trait is too strong, I think the trait is too binary. It either stops your opponent cold or it does jack squat. They need to greatly extend the health threshold while adding opportunities for condition builds to bypass it. Or something similar. Right now the trait either guarantees you a win or it’s a wasted grandmaster. Pretty bad design in my book.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why not? Which conditions on auto attacks are so problematic?

To me it just promotes auto attack spamming. I just see A LOT of condition builds spamming auto attacks, these are mostly Long Bow rangers, Sword Warriors, Sceptre Necromancers and Pistol Thieves all have a HIGH tendency to just spam Auto attack.

This is especially the case when it comes to range. At least warrior has to put themselves in harms way to get the condition from the sword on the target.

Sooo…what else are those builds supposed to do when everything else is on cooldown/an inappropriate time to use? Are you saying players shouldn’t be able to deal damage as soon as they are in range? Cause that sounds exceedingly stupid.

And yeah, man, those longbow rangers really hurt with those conditions…

I am saying that they should not be able to spam conditions when they are at range. Too many classes can and even before you actually get into range you are at a huge disadvantage.

Damage is one thing, having many stacks of conditions including Bleeding, Poison, Burns and others before your target even gets to you is just a little too strong in my opinion. Poison and Burning should not be on ANY auto attack in my opinion, both are VERY strong.

Remember, i am talking from a Condition build perspective. In power builds these conditions aren’t really that dangerous but when facing Condition builds when its Range Vs Melee means you are at a disadvantage even before the fight has even begun.

And this is different than melee against ranged power builds…how? In both cases, the ranged combatant gets hits off before the melee combatant does. He has an advantage before the melee guy can do anything.

Range is an advantage, regardless of the kind of build either player has. You’re basically saying you want that advantage to not exist. Do you really want a game where everyone is melee?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why not? Which conditions on auto attacks are so problematic?

To me it just promotes auto attack spamming. I just see A LOT of condition builds spamming auto attacks, these are mostly Long Bow rangers, Sword Warriors, Sceptre Necromancers and Pistol Thieves all have a HIGH tendency to just spam Auto attack.

This is especially the case when it comes to range. At least warrior has to put themselves in harms way to get the condition from the sword on the target.

Sooo…what else are those builds supposed to do when everything else is on cooldown/an inappropriate time to use? Are you saying players shouldn’t be able to deal damage as soon as they are in range? Cause that sounds exceedingly stupid.

And yeah, man, those longbow rangers really hurt with those conditions…

Cogbyrn.7283:

frans.8092:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, the last time I used Lich Form in WvW, I watched the projectiles.

In general projectiles will hit if you don’t change direction and/or movement speed after they are ‘fired’.

I know. I’m telling you they didn’t hit when the enemy didn’t change direction and/or movement speed. I’m telling you that they flew right behind, at the location the player was when the projectile fired.

I really need to go out and officially test this, then maybe post a vid for confirmation. I think I’ll try to do that this evening.

Lich Form auto does not have facing requirements. It fires directly behind just as easily as it fires directly in front.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Lol. I have no problems with them. I mean it would be nice if other classes actually had to make sacrifices to be condition builds. Conditions should NOT be attached to weapon auto attacks in my opinion. Especially long range weapons.

Why not? Which conditions on auto attacks are so problematic?

Bleeding? It’s just damage. Most autos that have bleeds on them have lousy power coefficients (Warrior Rifle is an exception, but you never see it used…), so the damage is actually coming from the bleeds instead.

Burning? Same thing as bleeding. There’s also only a single auto-attack that causes burning and its direct damage is horrid.

Vulnerability? Just damage ramp and useless to condition damage builds anyway. This is found almost exclusively on Power weapons.

Poison? Only found on two autos. Thief Dagger is an assassination weapon, so they want to minimize enemy healing if they survive the initial burst. Necro scepter is intended to be an attrition weapon, so it reduces the healing to help prevent the foe from healing faster than the necro does (though it doesn’t work due to the rest of the class skills).

Fear? I agree. It should never be on an auto. Good thing it isn’t.

Chill? I agree. It should never be on an auto. Good thing it isn’t.

Immobilize? I agree. It should never be on an auto. Good thing it isn’t.

Torment? Nothing wrong with it being on an auto as it’s just damage. But it isn’t.

Weakness? Pretty strong overall. Only on three autos, though, and I’ve never heard of ele earth staff or warrior mace being complained about for that reason. Thief Sword has likewise been pretty silent on the Weakness.

Blind? I agree. It should never be on an auto. Good thing it isn’t.

Confusion? Depending on duration and stacking ability (needs to be low on each), this may not be too terrible. But it isn’t on any auto, so it’s a moot point.

Cripple? It’s on a few autos, but guess what? They’re all melee weapons! The Cripple is there to prevent their target from kiting them, not to kite themselves.

So, once again, where is the problem with conditions on autos?

Lettuce.2945:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Lettuce.2945:

I wasn’t joking. Stop, drop, and roll trait. You are welcome.

So to remove the unfair disadvantage ONE class has to a condition we should make ourselves WEAKER by taking such a trait. We should NOT need it. NO class should be affected by it for weapon/attunement swaps.

facepalms Dude, please actually try it before you whine about it. That trait actually made me a lot stronger. It’s definitely worlds apart from taking something like soothing disruption or whatever. My survivability has gone through the roof just from that ONE “kitten” trait. It’s a free burn/chill removal every 10 seconds which is USEFUL. Seriously, the serious top eles are using it right now.

ArmegeddonAsh has an unreasonable hatred regarding conditions. He wants to completely ignore them and complains when he doesn’t get to do that.

Precedent for boon strip on auto: Mesmer sword (3rd strike unconditionally rips boons). Likely a faster chain than a Greatsword would have as well.

Tend could probably be dropped to 2 seconds cripple, though.

I’m not arguing that Chill should be affecting attunements, but right now, it does. Until it gets changed, it would be wise to use options you have already to solve the issue.

Prysin.8542:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

A well specced and skilled enough Thief should be good enough, with that said I wouldn’t put the average Thief high on the list otherwise compared to a Ele, Necro or even Engineer tbh.

But decent DPS, blind fields, Venom share, stealth ressing and a spammable blast finisher isn’t too shabby.

Only issue with necro and guard combo is that despite it sounding a bit ironic they are both ridiculously easy to overload with conditions. As a pair it will be garder, but nit that much harder.

Ummm…what? The two classes that are both extremely hard to overload with conditions are now the two easiest? Necros have more total clears than any other profession (two totals, two potential totals).

Guardians and Necros cover each-other’s weaknesses extremely well (outside of the low mobility).

Not quite as good, really. The minion-related traits are more suited to Power builds (as Curses has none) and the vulnerability stacking that Axe/Focus brings synergizes better with the all physical damage minions.

That said, a 0/2/6/6/0 build can work surprisingly well. Nigh immune to conditions yourself, you just keep wearing down your opponents with constant poison and weakness.

Pregnantman.8259:

Do you actually use it over other Curse GM traits? I know that Lingering Curses can just be too good for condition builds, and power builds might not go all the way as they need their traits elsewhere? Do we have someone here with a build and video maybe?

If I’m in PvP or WvW? Always. Absolutely always. Lingering Curse is a lot better than people give it credit for, but when enemies are using boons and cleansing, Path of Corruption wins by a landslide.

And nobody uses Withering Precision. It’s just too terrible.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Lettuce.2945:

I wasn’t joking. Stop, drop, and roll trait. You are welcome.

So to remove the unfair disadvantage ONE class has to a condition we should make ourselves WEAKER by taking such a trait. We should NOT need it. NO class should be affected by it for weapon/attunement swaps.

If it’s handling one of your primary weaknesses, is it making you weaker?

zone.1073:

As soon as players realized they couldn’t bully a warrior around anymore, and that they don’t die instantly, that’s when the complaints about longbow started rising up. And there really isn’t anything imbalanced about longbow. It’s just a reliable tool to deal with the current meta. Melee-only is too high risk and low/no reward in this meta.

Ironically, primarily because of Hambows.

gartz.7013:

if a bomb i place while dodging in stealth can reveal, why doesn’t a mesmer clone

Mesmer Clone is considered a different entity. The bomb is not.

Path of Corruption is flat-out amazing. It’s an extremely short cooldown for a two-boon conversion, meaning you will usually get to use it multiple times per fight. It’s partly so good because Dark Path is so good, though. Both power and condition builds like using Dark Path anyway, and this just gives them even more reason to do so.

That said, in PvE, it’s pretty useless because enemies there so rarely use boons without putting them all back up in 3 seconds (no exaggeration).

style.6173:

Necro is too far down in many of your lists. Condi spam is the current meta regardless of class.

So, about those condispam Guardians…

style.6173:

Huh? It is a condi meta right now. Condi rules. That’s why you see people playing that S/D spec you mention and why D/P trickery died out.

“Condi meta” has actually never existed. The only place condition builds have ever been popular were in hotjoins and solo-que. Metas can never truly exist in a game mode that is essentially ARAM.

Eh, while you can go full Zerker scepter, about half of your auto-attack damage will still come from the conditions. Scepter scales that badly with power.

a t s e.9614:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

a t s e.9614:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Shockwave.1230:

This thread is two separate topics.

People have a problem with rng in general, because the outcome can be largely out of there control. In the case of high percentage ring people have less issue with that for beneficial effects.

The other topic is condi vs power. People have issues with condi, because it’s often AoE, Ranged, or both , reduces healing (poison), is passive once applied, ignores armor, ignores defensive abilities once applied ( like invulnerable) , and is therefore easy to play, low risk, and high reward.

Does Direct damage take effort to maintain once applied? Do blocks and invulnerabilities applied after the hit reduce the damage?

Seriously, I’m curious here. Why do people treat conditions as some mythical thing in these respects when direct damage has those exact same characteristics? If anything, conditions take more effort there to maintain the damage because the damage can be reduced after the skill lands.

You don’t need to maintain anything, its damage over time. Stack conditions and watch your enemy die.

Direct damage build need to land many attaccks and even some control abilities. While a necro is just press signet of spite and GG.

Or engi autoattack to proc burn and GG.

I’d love to see you win with just pressing Signet of Spite. No landing lots of attacks, just Signet of Spite. Seriously, record it. I’d love to see the build that can manage that.

Same thing with IP engineers. I want to see a video of you winning with nothing but auto-attacks.

I’m certain you will be completely unsuccessful with either one. Heck, if successful in a non-staged fight, I will send you 100 gold in game.

I never said condi builds were good. Easy to play doesn’t mean good.

If they’re low-risk, high reward, by definition they are good. So, if they aren’t good, then they must be:

Low risk, low reward.
High risk, low reward
High risk, high reward reward
moderate risk, moderate reward

So, since we’ve established you’re full of it on this subject, I suggest you don’t bring it up again. It won’t turn out well for your credibility.

Axe pros: Works better with allies. Power build overlap is a complete non-issue and the more power builds are in the group, the more valuable the vuln stacking from axe auto is. Also gives fairly frequent death shroud access and fairly frequent AoE boon-rip. In WvW, either Axe Training or some boon duration can easily net you perma-retaliation to make those Longbow rangers cry.

Axe cons: very low sustained damage and barely qualifies as a “ranged” weapon. The cripple uptime is pretty low.

Scepter Pros: Longer range and perma-poison with strong cripple uptime. Is generally stronger against high-armor targets.

Scepter cons: Lowest life force generation of any weapon we have. Damage is extremely susceptible to cleanses which run rampant in organized groups (not so much in pug zergs, though).

a t s e.9614:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Shockwave.1230:

This thread is two separate topics.

People have a problem with rng in general, because the outcome can be largely out of there control. In the case of high percentage ring people have less issue with that for beneficial effects.

The other topic is condi vs power. People have issues with condi, because it’s often AoE, Ranged, or both , reduces healing (poison), is passive once applied, ignores armor, ignores defensive abilities once applied ( like invulnerable) , and is therefore easy to play, low risk, and high reward.

Does Direct damage take effort to maintain once applied? Do blocks and invulnerabilities applied after the hit reduce the damage?

Seriously, I’m curious here. Why do people treat conditions as some mythical thing in these respects when direct damage has those exact same characteristics? If anything, conditions take more effort there to maintain the damage because the damage can be reduced after the skill lands.

You don’t need to maintain anything, its damage over time. Stack conditions and watch your enemy die.

Direct damage build need to land many attaccks and even some control abilities. While a necro is just press signet of spite and GG.

Or engi autoattack to proc burn and GG.

I’d love to see you win with just pressing Signet of Spite. No landing lots of attacks, just Signet of Spite. Seriously, record it. I’d love to see the build that can manage that.

Same thing with IP engineers. I want to see a video of you winning with nothing but auto-attacks.

I’m certain you will be completely unsuccessful with either one. Heck, if successful in a non-staged fight, I will send you 100 gold in game.

Obtena.7952:

I understand what you were refuting … that is my response to it. There is nothing ‘false’ about making a claim that lacking what you call evade moves is OK. It’s no deficiency to lack those things on a Necro anymore than it is for a Guardian to lack mobility or runspeed … it’s a player issue, not a profession issue. It’s about recognizing what the profession can and can’t do and the appropriate skills. Necro can’t do ‘evade moves’ does not equate to mean that DS isn’t OP.

It seems you aren’t recognizing how DS is even better than a second life bar. Again, the best get out of jail free card for any profession that exists and learning to take the most of it along with the regular tools you have is a very strong opponent.

What you are suggesting would make DS absolutely ridiculous. While I don’t know of the capability of the OP, my own fair share of experience with, along and against the profession suggests what is been eluded to in this thread isn’t too far from the mark.

The best “get out of jail free” card would actually get you out of jail. Death Shroud can’t do that. It lets you get medical treatment for that stab wound you got in the cafeteria brawl, but you’re still stuck in there for the whole sentence. Other professions have “get out of jail free cards” that actually can get them out of trouble.

It’s a strong mechanic, yes, but it in no way measures up to actual active defenses.

Shockwave.1230:

This thread is two separate topics.

People have a problem with rng in general, because the outcome can be largely out of there control. In the case of high percentage ring people have less issue with that for beneficial effects.

The other topic is condi vs power. People have issues with condi, because it’s often AoE, Ranged, or both , reduces healing (poison), is passive once applied, ignores armor, ignores defensive abilities once applied ( like invulnerable) , and is therefore easy to play, low risk, and high reward.

Does Direct damage take effort to maintain once applied? Do blocks and invulnerabilities applied after the hit reduce the damage?

Seriously, I’m curious here. Why do people treat conditions as some mythical thing in these respects when direct damage has those exact same characteristics? If anything, conditions take more effort there to maintain the damage because the damage can be reduced after the skill lands.

Pibriamal.8719:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Pibriamal.8719:

Liewec.2896:

Narkodx.1472:

It’s a DOT which rarely exceeds 3k dmg as only a fool would not cleanse burning.

a class like guardian can apply burning every 3 hits.
engi’s apply a 6 second burn every 10 seconds.
a class like warrior can apply burning with EVERY SINGLE AUTO ATTACK.
so which class are you playing that has condi-removal on a 1 second cooldown?

What kind of warrior are you playing that has burning on every attack?

Hambow with Stronger Bowstrings. Turns the auto attack into a double projectile finisher and turns the 2 into projectile finishers as well. Yes, that trait turns the Longbow into a combo machine (1 field, 5 finishers).

That’s not burning on every auto attack. And it requires the fire field from the burst, it’s not free.

There’s setup, but it is still extremely high uptime on the “burning autos.” I never claimed that it was “every auto”, but it’s not difficult to see why it seems that way.

Here’s my Greatsword idea:

Sow: Cripple enemies struck (3s)
→ Tend: Gain 5% life force per foe struck
→ Reap: Damage enemies around you. Remove one boon from each foe with a condition.

Grenth’s Balance: Damages enemies. Deals more damage and removes Might from foes over 50% health. If you are below 50% health, gain health and Protection (2s) for each foe struck.*

Mark of Pain: Mark. Inscribes a Mark at your location that causes enemies that trigger it to deal 20% of direct damage they receive to their allies within 300 range for 5 seconds. Blast finisher when mark is triggered.

Gaze of Contempt: Fires a projectile that immobilizes a foe (1s) and marks them (4 seconds). 600 range.
→ Foul Feast: Leaps to the marked target and siphons health from them. Leap finisher. 900 range*

Withering Strike: Slash the area around you. If you hit a foe, you regain 50% endurance. Each foe struck loses 50% endurance.

*: Healing is enhanced by Bloodthirst

The idea behind this kit is to provide AoE sustain and damage. Dagger will provide significantly superior damage and sustain against a single foe, but Greatsword should come out ahead against multiple opponents.

Sow→Tend→Reap is intended to be an attrition auto-attack. It continuously keeps the targets in range while it builds life force and tears down their buffs.

Grenth’s Balance was an interesting equalizer skill in Guild Wars 1. Since the theme of sacrificing health has gone away, though, its poor use won’t be as punishing as it was then. However, it can still be a bad idea to use the skill. This skill is designed to help turn a bad situation around by reducing an opponent’s momentum. The ideal damage levels would put it below the auto-attack if the target is below half health, but significantly above the auto if they are above half. If you are in a losing fight, it will be a strong skill. If you’re winning, it’s best not to use it.

Mark of Pain is another skill from Guild Wars 1 that has been somewhat requested. This one wouldn’t be much help against a single foe (the original wasn’t either) but it would help drastically in teamfights and clearing trash mobs out in PvE. This also lets you get a bit of extra “uumph” from our three master traits that affect Marks.

Gaze of Contempt/Foul Feast had very different effects in GW1, but the names fit. The idea is that it is a massive (like ~4-5k in full Zealot’s gear), but well telegraphed, siphon that also works as a gap closer. True in keeping with ANet’s vision of necros, it really can’t be used as an escape.

Withering Strike, I’m not so sure of. It doesn’t quite fit the kit in my mind, but it does give the necro an extra dodge while denying one from his enemies, which can be a pretty useful tool. Still not sure I like it, though, and I’d love replacement ideas.

Pibriamal.8719:

Liewec.2896:

Narkodx.1472:

It’s a DOT which rarely exceeds 3k dmg as only a fool would not cleanse burning.

a class like guardian can apply burning every 3 hits.
engi’s apply a 6 second burn every 10 seconds.
a class like warrior can apply burning with EVERY SINGLE AUTO ATTACK.
so which class are you playing that has condi-removal on a 1 second cooldown?

What kind of warrior are you playing that has burning on every attack?

Hambow with Stronger Bowstrings. Turns the auto attack into a double projectile finisher and turns the 2 into projectile finishers as well. Yes, that trait turns the Longbow into a combo machine (1 field, 5 finishers).

Liewec.2896:

tbh diamond skin is a gimmick, his whole spec is a troll spec made for hunting people who put everything they have into condition damage, ofcourse he’s going to be tough for you, but he’s a piece of cake for everyone else, so leave him to your allies while you can get back to fear spamming.

Which is why the trait needs a rework. It is too binary. You are either completely unkillable, or the trait isn’t even noticed. There is no middle ground with it.

What if it instead gave immunity to conditions while attuned to Earth and above 66% health? That would give them a much larger window to work with against power builds, but also give condition builds opportunities to start wearing them down as, while in Earth, they couldn’t just keep regenerating 100% of the direct damage.

Damaein.6413:

Improving drain is hard. All of our drains would need to have ICDs along with the buffed damage/healing. The only reason you can spam drain (vamp prec, vamp, vamp rituals) is because they do such little drain. The second you have them do “real” healing or damage you have to place an ICD or they are too difficult to balance without changing everything else.

No, they really aren’t. ICD’s are completely unecessary to balance siphons because of a number of factors.

1. They inherently have counterplay. The necro must be hitting an opponent to siphon anything at all. Kiting, blinds, blocks, evades, stuns, dazes, fears, and invulnerabilities are all effective methods at shutting down siphoning.

2. They require action from the Necro. Unlike a Warrior, the necro can’t just regen health with siphons. He must actually be doing things. If he tries to delay for health regen, it doesn’t work.

3. Siphons are all inherently limited. You can’t possibly siphon faster than your attack speed, which is easily calculable. The higher risk weapons have the higher attack speeds, which works out effectively to keep the sustain where it’s really needed. Main hand dagger can’t even kite, which is why it has the highest sustain of any of our weapons.

4. Siphons are not done in a vaccuum. You cannot siphon from enemies that aren’t there. Thus, if you’re using AoE to siphon from multiple foes, it means you have multiple foes.

But drains working in DS would be a very nice QOL. I say QOL because I hate wasting the ticks in DS but it’s not earth shattering. Sure bonus damage, but I don’t like wasting half of a skill because of a class mechanic. I would suggest going as far as allowing all boon and siphons to effect DS. Make it to where only direct healing doesn’t work. Not sure about balance since you can always have regen from Staff#2.

Realistically speaking, all of our “heal when X” traits need to function in Death Shroud (except Transfusion) and the Regeneration boon does as well. Right now, if a necro goes into Death Shroud with Regeneration on him, it actually becomes a liability due to particular necro/thief/mesmer skills and trait like Destruction of the Empowered. Boons should never be purely negative, but for necros in death shroud, Regeneration is.