don’t change it?
…
if u think its not fair then don’t reflect, but seriously, when people do this it gets on my nerves… it makes peoples day easier and u go around “nerf this plz”… lol
He’s referring to boss mechanics. You know, PvE only? He’s asking for consistency, not nerfs or buffs.
Just one problem: Your life bar really doesn’t recuperate as a necro. The theory behind death shroud and attrition is that you bounce between them, constantly using whichever is higher. But you can’t heal in death shroud, so that doesn’t work. On top of that, the necro’s self-healing abilities are all rather weak outside of the heal skill. Necros are actually the class that is weakest to attrition when it is supposed to be our strong suit.
Well I can quickly think of 2 solutions:
- all projectiles are blocked by reflect skills but some types are not send back. It keeps reflects as a reliable defensive tool but without being to kill some bosses to quickly.
This would really be the preferable one. It helps solve the problems of confusing mechanics without having bosses die too quickly.
Agreed. If we’re to be tough to get away from, people shouldn’t simply outrun our gap closer (that can’t be used for escape).
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You’re right. If only there were certain abilities in the game that would remove conditions before they did any damage.
Oh well.
oh you’re on about the 1-2 long cooldown condition removals you’ll have on your bar?
yep that’ll deal with the conditions that are getting applied by every auto attack.use a condi removal and you’ll have 10 stacks of bleeding back in seconds.
and most condi removals won’t remove all conditions so you better hope it removes the bleeds since you’ll get burning and poison back instantly, atleast the bleeds take afew seconds to stack up.
So, what’s so different about condition damage autos over direct damage autos? It’s not the bulk of the damage, and if you’re blowing your active defense/cleanses on them, you’re doing it wrong. This is true no matter who you’re facing.
You will take damage when facing players. Try keeping the fights too short for you to take enough to kill you.
Stealth Kill Shot.
You know it will happen.
Do those autoattacks from Lichform not lock on to a target, meaning you can very easily side-step or juke them?
Correct. No homing whatsoever.
A counter to the condi bunker meta. It is perfectly fine the way it is..
The meta that never existed?
There’s a reason balance decisions aren’t made around hotjoins. Because literally any build can and will show up. There is no coordination between teammates , so strategies never actually develop. Add into the fact you are just as likely to get 5 glass cannon thieves kitten Decap engineers, and no actual “meta” will ever form.
There are currently no other Diamond counters in the game other than Diamond Skin. Hard counters can be worked around and out-played. Diamond Counters simply win with no chance of recourse. That is the issue with Diamond Skin as it currently is: the builds it counters have literally no chance of victory.
However, the builds it doesn’t counter rarely even notice that it’s there. It’s too terribly designed.
Perhaps a test golem that always takes damage as calculated from the average weapon strength? One of each armor rating (light, medium, heavy?)
Maybe they should make the other elites better to match the power and destruction of Lich Form. What if the Warrior Juggernaut form did 4-7k autos or the Elementalist Tornado?
Ele Tornado can hit 4k easy (heck, Tornado clones can hit that hard), but the knockback radius is larger than the damage radius, so that rarely happens.
Juggernaut has much higher CC and should lose out on damage in comparison.
So, realistically speaking, yes. Other elites are equally powerful.
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@ Meta
The only necromancer’s I run into who give me troubles on a condi build (which that situation is rather rare because I hardly run condi and I hardly run into necro) is MM and those using OH dagger. Consume conditions is basically standard, so I will push them into using it with a “burst” of conditions and hold the real overload for later. Outside of that the well just means “AoE at this spot” or stop hitting them while its up since it has a 50 sec cd, signet is a 60 sec cd and not something I worry about, putrid mark is like any mark when it comes to dodging (many seem to think they need it at their feet for it to xfer, so makes it easy to dodge through). Necro doesn’t have mediocre condition clearing, but if I see a group with guardian warrior necro ele and ranger I’ll put my conditions on the necromancer. Thief Mesmer engineer are tied in my mind for overall builds, necro sits smack dab in the middle of them and the rest.
Translation: “I play at the lowest skill level, which helps explain my own comments and views.”
Even lousy necros are really tough to bring down with conditions, know that Putrid Mark will transfer from anywhere and place it at their target’s location, or will hold back on Consume Conditions until they can use the heal/can wipe massive condition stacks at once.
If you were actually knowledgeable about necros and conditions in general, they would be the last person you focus with conditions. With the vast majority of them, you’d just be giving them ammo.
@Brujeria, I think its fine as a niche trait. I agree it certainly won’t see wide play, but the ability to heal teammates while still dealing fairly competitive damage is awesome. The only issue right now is it is totally unreliable.
And truthfully, if it wasn’t so unreliable, it would be horribly overpowered. Pumping out sustained AoE 1k healing/second with ease would be broken. And yes, those numbers are quite achievable.
i don’t think necro should have any group support options at all outside of people blasting WoP. self support(attrition anyone? where is it?) however, is apparently essential to necromancer, yet i’ve never heard of any
oneNecro survivingtwo hambowsanyone with life siphons.
sorry for being sort of off topic :/
Fixed that for you. Siphons are in incredibly sorry shape.
Why is anyone helping a warrior against a power necro……
Because even when someone is not very skilled, when they ask for advice to deal with a particular problem, they’re working on improving themselves. That’s kind of what this forum is about.
That said, any condition build will usually have a tough time against a necro. By facing them with a condition build, you’re challenging them where they’re strongest (and usually giving them ammo).
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Truthfully, that is the biggest weakness of Necromancer design right now: using the class mechanic turns traits off. If that got fixed and siphons, you know, actually siphoned health instead of trait points, I feel necros would be in a pretty good spot..
I don’t agree with Kharr but the fact that we have a 5% direct damage sigil bonus kinda speaks for itself that power needs some bonuses to do anything worth mentioning.
There’s a +6% condition damage sigil, that suggests condition damage needs +6% where power damage can do with +5% …
Just one issue: Sigil of Bursting is 6% to the stat, not the actual damage. For every 1k condition damage, you get 3 damage/bleed tick, 6 damage/poison tick, and 15 per burning tick.
Unless the feature pack changed it. I actually sold mine then.
If Necros get Greatsword, I see it as being a sustain-heavy weapon. Cleaving life force generation and siphoning would be great. I’d also like a skill that shoots out a projectile for a brief immobilize, then has the necro flying through the air toward the target for a massive siphon strike (and yes, a Leap finisher).
Hammer should be a heavy CC weapon. I’d love to see that one get a skill that creates a (fairly large) ring that applies a fairly lengthy chill to any enemy that crosses it (can’t be dodged through to avoid the effects, just like wall-type skills) and shrinks significantly in size over a few seconds.
hey, having an off day, but have they ever implemented changes on traits, etc that players have suggested? i’ve given up hope of having an impact on the devs, as i kitten they don’t take into account the players who actually play the necros, aside from 1-2 elite guys.
Yes. Both of the new Death magic minors were player suggestions from a thread on this subforum. Torment was as well.
Why does everyone forget that an engineer can be quite effective stripping boons?
Probably because they have one boon strip skill and one boon strip trait. Both of which remove a singular boon and are on decent length cooldowns. Compare to Mesmers (AoE boon strip on each shatter if traited, AoE pulsing boon strip on Null Field, Repeating boon strip on Phantasmal Disenchanter, boon strip on Sword auto, which clones inherit, 3 boon steal on Arcane Thievery) and Necros (AoE boon strip on a 15 second cooldown with Axe 3, 3 boon strip on Focus 5, 5 boon conversion on Corrupt Boon, AoE pulsing boon conversion on Well of Corruption, 2 boon conversion on a 15 second cooldown with traited Dark Path, these last three all being unblockable) and you see why people don’t think of engies ever. They have infrequent single boon strips. You want to get Might? Better hope they have no other boons at all. Mesmers and Necros don’t have that issue.
On Dark Armor: Yes. Would be an excellent addition.
On SotL: Are you out of your mind? That’s the way to utterly kill the signet. Giving it a useless passive and nerfing the already weak active is a horrid plan.
One quality of Life change I’d like to see is having the effects of Necrotic Traversal being centered on your position instead of the wurm’s. The Blast finisher on that skill might as well not exist right now.
The actual Meta in spvp is always condition damage. But some classes can play whitout conditions (war, thief and bunker guardian).
And this guy proves he has no clue with his first sentence. There has never been a “condition meta”. There was a period where condition damage builds were popular for hotjoins, but any organized team runs one condition damage build sometimes.
Necros don’t use multiple stunbreakers because you really just can’t fit them in.
Now I just don’t buy that. I do not say that purely in the context of necros either. I find that a weak reasoning, personally. Similarly, I have defended against cries to nerf necros condition out put when poster suggest they refuse to use more condition removals. As I see it, a player deserves to die quickly to condition damage when they refuse to use the tools available to them to counter them. You deserve to die quickly to direct damage builds when you claim you prefer to stack other stats, over taking toughness. You similarly deserve to die quickly to CC builds when you use the tools avaliable to you to counter them.
To suggest you cannot counter something, simply because you refuse to build for it because you prefer to build in other ways is a horrible reason to demand changes to any given profession.
Having said all that, I do think that when we look at all of the other professions as a while, all of the stun breakers on the necro seem to lean more towards a 6th cool down, and probably should be reduced to a 4s cool down. I know personally, I would much prefer that over losing something like my 25% movement rate increase.
The issue is that to even perform a role that a team needs, necros need to use 2/3 utilities to complete that role, and none of those necessary skills are stunbreaks. Sure, a necro could bring more stunbreaks, but then he just isn’t doing anything to justify his slot on the team.
We need unique buffs. Boons and just general healing don’t cut it, we’d need something that no one else can give, and it has to be (at least somewhat) offensive in nature.
Like aura wifesteal?
Thresh would be so proud.
Why is achieving the maximum amount of Might stacks considered so wrong, or broken, or inappropriate? Why have a maximum you can’t reach except for small fleeting moments?
Simply put, because the game is balanced around hitting max stacks only on small, fleeting moments.
It’s like thieves with Backstab. Once they land it, their damage is generally much lower for a bit. There’s prep work to land that big hit. But, if they changed Backstab to deal its full damage regardless of enemy facing and made it the dagger auto-attack (instead of stealth attack), I can guarantee you would scream OP. That’s pretty much what constantly running with max Might is like. The game isn’t balanced for it. That kind of output should only happen with lots and lots of setup solo for a brief period of awesome or with a coordinated group effort. Right now, it just…happens. Strength Runes aren’t the only culprit in this, but they are easily identified and are actually too strong on their own.
Remove the “gain might when struck” proc on the #4 bonus and re-evaluate from there. The runes are over-budget and their “conditional” damage bonus takes literally zero effort from the wearer to maintain nearly 100% of the time.
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Condition engies lack stability and stunbreaks. Condition necros lack stability and stunbreaks. Condition mesmers lack stability and use their stunbreaks for damage. Condition thieves lacks stability and stunbreaks (because they’re rather reliant on venoms). Condition eles are so rare, I have no idea what they run. Condition guardians don’t exist.
Condition warriors get everything from their weapons, so they usually have the same stability and stunbreaks as Power builds.
Power build misses his skill, it’s not a problem. He has more up his sleeves.
You’re confusing “burst” and “individual attack”. For everyone trying to burst, if you miss your burst, you’re in a heap of trouble. If you miss an individual attack? Not so much.
Toughness should include some Condi resistance…
Then Knight’s gear becomes THE best set in the game because nothing would counter high toughness.
No.
for the trait in first line we need rework for 5 15 25 need change
5 arrow piercing or 10% dmg full endurance.
15 longbow 5% dmg +300 range or passive buff precision party.
25 is first strike 5 +15 +25 in one trait.
Bad idea. That revisits the problem necros had with their Death Magic line. Minor traits need to benefit every build because you can’t choose to not take them. Tying minor traits to particular weapons or skill types is means that many builds literally get nothing at the 1/3/5 point levels.
I’m fine with how Dark Path currently works, though it could use longer tracking range. Perhaps something that tracks indefinitely, but fizzles if the necro is not within X range of the target when it hits?
And even if you had the Stability, you’d still be spiked. You’re not being spiked because of your lacking access to Stability. Necromancers get spiked because of their capabilities to cover whole cap points with debuffs and conditions.
Necros would get spiked regardless of stability, but not for the reason you state. They get spiked because they utterly lack the active defenses to do anything about it, making it an easy kill and a 4v5 until the necro respawns and hauls his slow butt back. The fact that necros are dangerous if ignored is very minor in comparison (as most people are rather dangerous if ignored).
In that case, would you be in favor of Vampiric getting an ICD, but Vampiric Precision continuing without and both getting buffed significantly (especially in the healing power department)? I’m still not convinced that Vampiric needs an ICD, but being that trait alone, I can kind of understand.
Regardless, Vampiric would always provide a benefit to any build that has at least 3 points in Blood Magic. Protection of the Horde did not do the same as it was tied to a skill type.
You could make a very tanky build with high crit chance, but that same build would lack healing power. Better healing power scaling is a big part of the changes that need to be made to siphoning.
I’m still not seeing how adding an ICD is so necessary. Make the siphoning good for the build that most needs it (the highest risk setup, which, coincidentally, also happens to be the fastest hitting), and the slower, lower risk weapons will still be able to spec into it to get extra sustain, but they generally need less and also won’t get as much. With necro skill design as it is, we have natural gates and tradeoffs to siphoning effectiveness that make it much easier to predict and control than you give credit for. If you refer back to my suggested values, Vampiric didn’t get much of a buff. Why? Because it’s the least gated and also picked up by builds that just want things like Ritual Master that have zero investment in siphoning.
You argue to add an ICD to avoid volatility, but siphons are inherently volatile. An ICD would fail spectacularly on that front while unnecessarily limiting what the necro can do with it.
second life is not enough, now it needs heals too…
Champion mobs only have health as a defense. How well do they do?
Give me a champion’s stats and attacks and I would kick kitten with it. The AI is just dumb.
Sure, but you give up all active defense.
Adrenal Health only ticks once per 3 seconds. They don’t have quite that high.
second life is not enough, now it needs heals too…
Champion mobs only have health as a defense. How well do they do?
@Drarnor Kunoram: Actually you don’t get healed from it just because you’re in DS
While true, the fact remains that it is a support trait more than a self-heal.
Manacraft, you have still failed on one very, very important thing in arguing for ICD’s on siphons.
Why would they be a good thing? How would an ICD actually help siphons at all, and how would that help not be possible outside of ICD’s?
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For allowing healing in death shroud, I feel it would be best to start slower. Make the Regeneration boon and the necro’s traits (Parasitic Contagion, Parasitic Bond, siphons) continue to function in death shroud and see where it goes from there. Transfusion in particular probably doesn’t need to change, as its purpose is more of group support rather than supporting the necro.
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If you do that, it becomes Protection that gets reduced by poison. Siphons are meant to let us recover health outside of using a healing skill. If you can get a bit of breathing room, such as via Well of Darkness or fearing someone, you can feasibly regain enough health to take another hit. Well, if our siphons weren’t utter crap, anyway.
The sad thing is that it really wouldn’t take much to bring them up to par. 300 health/second may be lower than the passive regeneration that other professions can achieve, but it is accompanied (usually) with life force gain. That said, since other professions have active defenses that we simply lack, perhaps bumping the target number to 350/second is more in line, especially as the necro must make investments not only in traits and gear, but also in actions to get those returns.
According to the patch notes, they moved the unlock requirements far more down to lower-level areas. No more unlocking adept level traits in level 60+ areas, for example.
Yeah I know that. I still think rabid and carrion do way too much for the amount of defence they have. People would agree with this statement when talking about Dire, so why not rabid/carrion?
Not to mention almost all condi builds are ranged. Which reduces the risk even further. Its the main reason i hate it so much. Its not challenging at all to play yet it achieves such strong results in so many situations.
Wait, what?
Even though we have all of the previous threads showing knights gear out damages rabid gear, yet they have the same defensive stats?
Actually, Knight’s is higher on the defense (Toughness primary) than Rabid is (Condition Damage primary)
I’m a dude last I checked :p
Rampager is a really odd set. While the only set with condition damage that lacks a defensive stat, it also has neither condition damage nor power as a primary stat. Rampagers is used for hybrid builds that go with many “on crit” effects, since they get no ferocity to back up the more frequent crits.
So, for a “glass cannon” condition spec, the appropriate gear doesn’t even exist.
Optimal survivability is 1 armor/10 health, and conveniently, that’s what a single point of Toughness and Vitality give respectively.
what a misleading oversimplification
No, it’s mathmatecially provable. Highest EHP is when your health is 10 times your armor in this game. There is no misleading there.
Now, highest EHP does not automatically mean most survivable, however. Other factors such as healing, dodges, blocking, and cleansing come into play, but those are gear-independant. All other things being equal, 10 health/point of armor is indeed the most survivable.
However, you do need to not think “armor=toughness” and “health=vitality”. Toughness gives armor. It does not equal it. Same thing with vitality and health.
Yeah I know that. I still think rabid and carrion do way too much for the amount of defence they have. People would agree with this statement when talking about Dire, so why not rabid/carrion?
Because Rabid/Carrion are two offensive stats, one defensive? I would hope they have decent damage output, and it’s still lower than most power builds.
Also, since when were bomb engineers ranged? Since when were Sword/Sword warriors ranged?
I think we need to be able to receive our self-traited healing mechanics while in DS, but not ally heals, simply so our defensive mechanic doesn’t counter our defensive mechanics.
But being able to receive heals form everyone is a massive buff to survivability. To my knowledge no one else is able to receive healing while temporarily invulnerable (which is effectively what DS is as far as HP goes, a very temporary invuln).
Actually, everyone else is able to do so. The difference is that death shroud is up much more frequently than true invulnerability. Death Shroud is literally the only mechanic in the game that makes your HP unable to go up.
Can be put into perspective quite easily with the necro. Necro lupi solo takes around 8 minutes with berserker. When using rabid it can easily go under 7 minutes. Which doesnt make sense because rabid is a hell of a lot less risky then berserker. Condi gear stats have way too much pressure for the lack of risk they have.
Umm, what? The first Rabid necro Lupicus solo took about 22 minutes. Even with more refined tactics (the tactics used were pretty refined just to accomplish it in the first place), that wouldn’t get cut by over half.
First off, there isn’t a condition meta. There never really was.
Second, the point to Toughness is that it reduces the incoming direct damage rather significantly, meaning your health goes farther and your healing is more effective. Optimal survivability is 1 armor/10 health, and conveniently, that’s what a single point of Toughness and Vitality give respectively. Necromancers skew this ratio a bit because of Death Shroud, but for everyone else it holds true.
Here’s the thing, though: we don’t have defenses that scale beyond one opponent. So, in order to survive focus-fire, we need something else that scales. Siphons are the most obvious answer because, as they currently work, they automatically do that. The issue is that they don’t do anything close to “enough,” even in a 1v1 situation (so scaling doesn’t even enter the picture).
Every profession that builds for survivability should get it and should be able to survive multiple opponents for a bit. On every profession, this is true, except necro, simply because we lack any active defense that scales.
So, since we don’t get active defense, we need some other survivability method that does scale. Replenishing health more rapidly when faced with multiple opponents fulfills that purpose. Scaling it down for 1v1 is simple because it is impossible to siphon health from enemies that aren’t present. You don’t need to give values that would be relevant against multiple foes to siphons as-is because if there aren’t multiple foes, that relevant extra healing simply isn’t there. That issue would be introduced by giving siphons an ICD, because it currently doesn’t exist.
By asking for ICD’s on siphons, you are asking for necros to have zero methods for scaling survivability unless ANet gives us things they have specifically and repeatedly said they will not do instead of buffing tools we already have that would work if they didn’t simply suck.
Are there other possibilities? Perhaps, but that requires getting brand new tools instead of making the ones we already have function properly. ANet has already admitted that siphons suck (although admittedly, that was before the debacle of shifting numbers from Bloodthirst to base values and giving them “scaling”).
The issues with necros not having an answer to sustaining against multiple opponents is not going to go away. Adding ICD’s to a possible option will do less than nothing to help us in that regard.
I see literally no advantage whatsoever in ICD’s on siphons. They negate the ability to scale with opponents, they give the safer weapons the same reward as the riskier weapons, and they don’t reward the necro, the class that is the practitioner of Aggression magic, for being aggressive. ICD’s on siphons, no matter the resultant values, would run completely counter to what necros need and should be.
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