Guild Wars 2

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

With the addition of account bound status, swappable sigils, on the fly swappable traits, and the already added swappable stats, they are moving farther and father away from being “luxury”. All of those on top of being permanent top tier add to the utility of the items. Distinction via utility is not a quality of “luxury” imo.

Sigils on legendaries are swappable now?

There’s a chance I might be mistaken, but I thought they said something about that during one of the last twitch rdy up episodes.

With the addition of account bound status, swappable sigils, on the fly swappable traits, and the already added swappable stats, they are moving farther and father away from being “luxury”. All of those on top of being permanent top tier add to the utility of the items. Distinction via utility is not a quality of “luxury” imo.

Zaxares.5419:

That’s basically the root cause of any complaint in a game’s economy: “It’s too hard or taking too long to get what I want!”

I’m not against making it much easier for players to get luxury items or exclusive skins, but I fear that would have a detrimental effect on the longevity of the game (as players tend to move on once they’ve accomplished their goals), and on the feeling of satisfaction players have when a goal is achieved. That said, we do need to constantly monitor the goal posts so that they are achievable by most players who set out to reach them.

Legendaries, while a hard slog, are definitely doable by a large segment of the player base as evidenced by how many we see in the game every day. I think players might just have the impression that you should be able to get them within a couple months, when they’re really intended to be more of a year (or two) long goal.

While I agree there are quite a few that seem based on that, lumping all concerns about the game’s economy into it is fallacious.

As for being detrimental to the longevity of the game? I don’t buy that for a second. It would not take them much longer to design/code a new set of high end skins than it does for them to design/code a new set of gem shops skins.

Makes sense…15

Idk offhand Wanze. I know that’s where I keep most of my long term speculations, so it’s definitely a factor of value.

All of the same factors were around back then so by whatever means the conclusions were drawn then they should still apply, just on a grander scale. Ofc if the information back then was invalid, then idk.

Just woke up so plz bear with me…

That’s a very valid and complicated issue. As how are we to tell how many hours are spent playing the tp vs playing core content? It all gets rather complicated even though it may seem simple. For example how many hour have I spent? Idk..I usually place orders and put listings up while I play.

How do we distinguish playing the tp as a means from using it as a compliment to core play?

Without knowing what extent their metrics are capable of, I can’t give a solid answer.

We do not have the data thus proof is an impossible condition to satisfy. What does that mean. It means that it is superfluous as a constraint. It was not applicable when JS brought it up, not applicable now, and will continue to not hold any water as long as it remains an impossible condition.

That aside….my guesstimate on the disparity would be 50 fold at the extreme low end.

For my 1st legendary I farmed all my t6. It took me over 9 months. For the second one I made I bought them and it took me a week. Kinda messed up right?

Wanze.8410:

simply quoting to let you know I am responding to you

Tbh idk if there has to be a negative to act in a positive fashion. Making something better imo is justification enough for change regardless of coming from a negative or not…..ie always striving to improve for the sake of betterment

My assumption about the information of the disparity stems from the lack of information now to which we were privied (idk how to spell that) before, where an equality of wealth distribution was touted as a good thing.

Wanze.8410:

1. I wont deny that Anet acknowledged that an issue exists for players having a poor sense of rewards and the rewards revamp with the feature patch is a result of it. But how does the TP have the single most impact on rewards, when it can only be considered a source of profit, not reward? Possible profit margins on the TP dont have a place in a discussion about reward structures of the game because they cant be classified as a reward.

1. You dont answer your own question with your 2nd sentence. How do you reduce the disparity? It might be that i interpret your statement wrong but Anet never acknowledged the profit disparity on the tp is a problem, its actually the opposite:
   Until now, there are no internal or external indications that this disparity influences the economy or individual game experience in any significant way.

1) The amount of rewards rewarded (bahhh wish I had a better word there so I wasn’t doubling up on that) is impact by the trading post being a global economy. They are impacted to not flood the economy with items (which would reduce value) or coin (which would cause unacceptable inflation). Part of having the TP the core of the game’s global economy is having a reward structure that revolves around conversion to coin and vice versa as an attempt to sidestep the negative effects of RNG and an individuals’ allotted rewards (which are balanced on a global scale directly via DR, percentages, set rewards, difficulty, the fore mentioned rng, etc etc….). This maintains that coin is fundamentally intertwined with reward in GW2, which makes the two synonymous.

1) a)My personal proposition as you know is a progressive tax. One that would not completely “nerf” playing the tp, but would have a two pronged effect. i) Bring potential more inline with other avenues (which aides in the perceived fairness of the game) ii) sink more gold (which gives more leeway for reward allocation) A checks and balance system, where the trading checks the economy and the tax balances the trading.

b) i)Anet would not want to admit that a disparity is a problem. That would openly welcome themselves to unwanted response. So it is no surprise that this would not happen. ii) Historically, (our best predictors of future occurrences) disparities have shown they do influence people rather significantly.

Anet acknowledging that rewards (which are vital to mmorpgs) are poor is more proof that there is a problem, then proof of there not being a problem.

Ergo there is more “proof” of a problem than there is “proof” of no problem.

You have not shown there is not a problem.

Do I personally want to have my “rewards” from playing the tp reduced?
Not really, but I know that there is a greater good to come from it. A better sense of reward for the masses, help to keep more players happy. This in turn keeps more players playing. More players playing keeps more areas of the game populated, which is the lifeblood of a mmo/rpg.

I am willing to give up some of my rewards (which exceed most by far) in the hopes that we can have a healthier game.

Anet themselves acknowledge there is an issue with players having a sense of “poor rewards”. It is why they are revamping rewards in an ongoing effort. The design of the TP has a major impact on the reward structure of this game (I dare say the single most significant impact).

What can we easily change about it that has a significant impact on player perspective yet does not significantly impact the fundamental purpose of the TP?

We reduce the disparity between the haves (small % of players) to increase the have nots’ sense of reward by comparison from what it currently is, which again is acknowledged to be lacking.

tolunart.2095:

“The TP makes me feel bad” is not a problem with the game, it’s a problem with the player. Everyone has the same chances to get loot and the same opportunities to turn that loot into gold.

How can the system be more fair than this? You’re asking Anet to make the system unfair towards people who learned how to play the game better than you, so that you can feel better.

I’m not very good at PvP, so therefore I should demand that Anet makes my toons do triple damage in PvP to make up for the fact that other players are better than I am. Losing PvP matches makes me feel bad, winning more often will make me feel better.

I would argue that “the tp makes the majority of GW2 players feel bad” is a problem with the deisgn.

This has nothing to do with me as an individual as I play the tp and play way too much.

This is about the player base in general of an action/adventure mmorpg.

The main “problem” (don’t care for using that term here) is that GW2 is notorious for poor rewards.

Why?

Well one reason is the way in which the economy is set up. Rewards (inputs) have to be balanced on a global scale with sinks (outputs) in a manner that input do not exceed outputs by such a margin where it becomes problematic.

To help do this RNG is used which has zero concern for the individual. An individual may always end up on the bad side of RNG and that is fine by the mechanic as it has no soul. To combat this some games introduce streak busting mechanics, but GW2 does not .

Another way of fostering sinks (outputs) is to have players actively work on doing so. This is where playing the tp comes into the fray. Players doing such may achieve rewards far beyond any other ig method.

This creates a divide between those who do and those who do not. This fosters a high sense of reward in those who do, but adversely fosters a poor sense of reward for those who do not.

Which all revolves back to GW2 having the psychology of poor reward structure for the majority of it’s players…ie….“those who do not”.

I see you’ve found how welcoming the tp section is…………….lol. I hope the CDI for the TP is not here for the sake of it being constructive.

Whoa……………….15 chars

brittitude.1983:

Essence Snow.3194:

Here’s the kicker. It is not solely limited to the economy. It impacts the game as a whole. ie economy =/= the whole of the game

How does wealth disparity impact the whole of the game?

In creating my hypothesis, and subsequently disproving it, I considered how one player having all the gold in the game could affect other players.

For the TP, the only factor I could think of was manipulating/controlling markets.

The other was for WvW. I could envision a sea of Alpha Siege Golems roaming all the maps effectively taking complete control for that week. I’m sure if this happened, something would be done to limit the number available per world per map, which would then negate any impact unlimited resources would provide.

Otherwise, I can’t think how unlimited money would otherwise be able to significantly affect other players. Or ,in your opinion, is it also all players != the whole of the game?

Ahh…good question! That is in fact where it gets tricky. Where proving turns into providing a case for. Where correlations to prior occurrences become our best predictors of future outcomes.

Tbh it will take a lot of thought, research, and time to fully answer that, which is part of the reason I asked to msg JS regaridng it.

brittitude.1983:

It is actually feasible to present an argument as to why wealth disparity is hurtful to the game’s economy without having proof or numbers that wealth disparity even exists. If wealth disparity can be presented as harmful, then it can be determined whether the disparity exists in the game. And once it is determined to exist in the game, then it can be determined how it occurred and solutions presented to resolve the disparity.

So is one player having more wealth than other players hurtful to the game’s economy?

I could only think of one way that a large wealth disparity could impact the economy:

Controlling trading markets. (this is theoretical with a large enough wealth disparity and incentive to do it, regardless of whether it has or can occur currently)

So, if wealth disparity exists to the extent that this can occur, what should the solution revolve around?

1. Fix the trading post so that manipulation is impossible.
2. Correct the ability to accumulate wealth to the point where the wealth disparity can not occur.
3. Take actions within the market to resolve the ability for it to continue to be manipulated.

Option 1.
The one idea I have seen presented that would correct it would be to have items account-bound on purchase. The discussion is varied and extensive and was based on reducing income made from the TP. It would be the most effective method of reducing the ability to manipulate a market since there wouldn’t be any direct buying and reselling of the same items. However, the drawbacks to the implementation would be so extensive that market manipulation might be preferable.

Option 2.
Assuming that the TP is the fastest, most efficient, and least risky way to make money for any and every player, there are multiple avenues of using the TP to make money. Each method would need to be “balanced” to make sure that a player wouldn’t move from one method to another and continue the wealth disparity.

Even if the methods could be balanced amongst themselves as well as with other methods of earning gold in the game, there would always be players that have more time to spend in the game. This creates an automatic and continual wealth disparity over time.

Then there is the ability to convert gems to gold. Gold will always be prevalent in the game regardless of any method to try to prevent it.

Option 3.
This is the most favorable option. And it seems that this is the one that has been done before to correct an imbalance (not necessarily market manipulation), as seen with the precursor drop changes. It is also a more effective way to eliminate the ability to manipulate markets rather than limit an individual’s ability to accumulate gold. While it doesn’t prevent market manipulation, it can correct it. It can also be used as a tool to positively effect the economy by increasing supply of a desirable object and satisfying demand, which effectively sinks more gold that was generated from anything unrelated to the TP.

TLDR;
Data isn’t required to present a hypothesis.
Hypothesis: Wealth disparity could only potentially harm the economy if players could control markets on the TP.
Markets can not be controlled due to protections currently in place to increase supply of items where imbalances occur.
Thus: Wealth disparity can not hurt the economy.

Here’s the kicker. It is not solely limited to the economy. It impacts the game as a whole. ie economy =/= the whole of the game

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

Would you mind if I msg’d you about the matter?

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

william dj.6953:

I know big words to Essence. Watermelon and Mississippi. But you know what else I know. I know for a fact all the claims about the tp made by so many are done so without any proof what so ever. If I was going to go online to make claims about how bad something is. The very least I would do is be able to prove it before I start running off at the mouth. But that’s just me. I know some people think their “opinions” are the god’s honest truth. Why? Well, it’s because it’s their opinion so it must be true.

The point is you cannot prove that they are not having a negative impact anymore than I can prove that they are because all of the proof (data) is withheld from us. It’s a impossibility on both ends. The redundancy of continually asking for it will not change that.

william dj.6953:

Dr. vs RN. I think I would pay the one who is doing the cutting and repairing more money.

Fairness = what I deserve=entitlement.

Still waiting on any shred of proof to demonstrate the evils of the tp players. Yet 12 pages later nothing. Says a lot about those complaints.

Proof either way is extraneous unless we can get the mandatory information needed.

It is as inconsequential as asking you to prove it that it does not.

Astralporing.1957:

Zaxares.5419:

No single player, no matter how wealthy, can hope to come close to the kind of impact this mass of trading power the collective GW2 player base has. Even a cartel of wealthy players would probably find themselves hard pressed to match it.

Single player? No. A group of players? Definitely. As someone already mentioned, there wouldn’t be items on TP with 1k+ sale values if there weren’t people willing to spend that much (and huge majority of the players do not even own that much money).
Notice, that i am not talking about intentional control here – merely of an impact that huge wealth disparity has on the TP.

This is something I think gets bypassed a lot. While for some odd reason the discussion always seems to veer towards individuals or small groups of individuals, the collective effect of those on the each side of the gap is where it matters.

KarateKid.5648:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

What you guys are calling “mechanic” is actually “results”. You want equal “results” for everyone across the board.

I can adhere to results for the most part, but not to equal. There’s no chance of them being equal. That would be unrealistic. Same ball park though is where we are cooking with gas.

william dj.6953:

phys.7689 “Imagine you and a rich man have both lived your life in the pursuit of cool cars. Bill makes a cool car. You cannot compete with rich man for this car, even if you have put in equal work, because he makes more per unit of time than you do. In fact his earnings are geometric (to a limit) while yours are only additive.”

If Bill stays up late studying learning everything he can to make more money to buy a better care. While I slept. Would he deserve a better car? Would the hours he spent outside of actually working to learn how to make money be counted as hours spent to earn more money? Seriously not trolling here. But these are the problems I see in that statement. To be good at tp requires more than just looking at prices on the tp while logged in the game.

Just to hopefully clarify for you.

He is not saying Bill is one of the purchasers of the car. Bill is not in competition. The 2 in competition were “you and a rich man” for Bill’s car. The assumption is that all effort is a constant and that only cash is a variable. I think that’s what they were trying to say.

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.
3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

I’m not saying anything in particular. I would just like to propose a question.

Excluding individual entities: Does a wealth gap provide for prices of some goods to be maintained by the spread of that gap and the ability of those on top of it to pay?

John Smith.4610:

This is a virtual economy, you may not assign the same speculative rules.
Read through why increasing wealth inequality is bad for a real economy and then apply that setting to gw2 as an argument.

PS Eve does not have a global economy.

So are you asking for the sociological impact that it would have in a game? Things like “eroding self-esteem, promoting social dislocation, unrest and conflict”?

Or going for a pure numbers version?

Fenrir.3609:

“We don’t know how much people are earning via the TP or how many of them are doing it, we don’t even know how much you can earn from pve and we have zero proof as to the current economic model hurting the game at all, but Shiller said inequality is bad, so um, nerf the TP!!!”.

Good argument.

1) I was relating that the condition asked for was in actuality an impossible condition. There things such as “Impossible Condition Law”, which explain why it’s not acceptable.

2) Shiller is a world authority on Economics. So his words carry more weight than mine. If we cannot heed advice from the experts of experts, well then I guess all expert testimonials have been flawed b/c you say so.

Yes that is correct, but does not address the issues of which have been brought up.

Rising inequality in the United States and elsewhere is the most important problem. Increasing inequality harms economic growth. ~Robert Shiller

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

We don’t have any numbers, so we can only speculate (use observational data). It’s all we have. So therefore we cannot prove anything due to lack of information of which ya’ll withhold from us.

I would postulate that an ever widening of wealth disparity (ie rewards) is detrimental to the economy and the game as a whole. The reasoning of such is that historically it has been the case for every occurrence.

But ofc in terms of this and information being withheld we cannot prove anything. So you are imposing a condition to which we simply cannot meet.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

The imbalance isn’t in the mechanics, but of the players themselves. Everyone has access to the same mechanics, only few of them use it. As another person posted, it’s like a giant pie. If only a few people eat the pie, each person will have a lot more. If a lot of people eat the pie, there will be less of it share.

What you’re asking for is to make the pie smaller. Not because of balance, but because some players don’t take the time to eat their share, so they want to limit the others who do.

That’s not what I am asking. That’s what you keep saying I’m asking. I am simply asking for measures to be brought forth to balance the reward structure of the game as a whole based on game imposed means, so that no one mechanics if far beyond all others. If karma offered such out of sync potential reward in the game, I be asking for the same balance there. If dungeons offered such out of sync potential reward, I’d propose for it there.

It’s not that its trading. It’s not that it’s karma training. It’s not that it’s farming. It’s not that it’s dungeoning. It’s not that it’s “enter any activity here”.

It’s that one mechanic offers potential for reward completely above and beyond all other mechanics.

If it were pies (for amusement sake) All other mechanics pies would range from 8" diameter to 14" diameter. The TP pie however would be the SUM of all the 8" pies, 14"pies, and all the pies in between.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

But you can’t balance player skill. Period. Some players are good at what they do. They use the same mechanics that’s available to all players. If more players played the TP, even remotely well, then the acquisition rate of wealth would diminish.

Also, you’re technically not making money from the TP. You’re just taking it from other players.

To use a different example (not skill related): If I could play 4 hours more per day than the average, would you be asking to “balance” my play time so I’m more in line with everyone else?

It’s not the skill that should be balanced (as you note it’s impossible) it’s the mechanic. It sort of along the same reasoning of time gating. It’s not to punish players who have the time, but to balance the mechanic.

Gene Archer.8560:

Essence Snow.3194:

I agree making other currencies more relevant would be a good thing. I however am sure if other currencies like karma were available for trade they would fall into the very same situation where the tp would be BY FAR the best method for it. It would just start from the beginning vs gold that has had time to progress exponentially.

Little confused. What do you mean when you say karma being available for trade? As in, being able to trade to vendors? Because there would be no issue there. Karma would have a fixed price. If you mean using karma on the TP, that’s Wanze’s idea.

Oh sry, I must have meshed the two. My apologies.

Behellagh.1468:

On top of it the call for change isn’t because the TP itself is faulty in some way, it’s because some players are jealous of others.

Why why why? It’s not a jealousy of others. I don’t understand why that is such a hard concept.

It’s NOT jealousy! It’s simply game balance.

I myself am most likely in the top 1-5% in account wealth. I am not jealous of myself. I am however able to recognize that my utilization of the trading post is not remotely on the same level as every other aspect of play when it comes to reward (since this game’s reward structure revolves around gold)…ie…I make much much more via the trading post than I could ever make from playing any content.

Gene Archer.8560:

Still thinking that the best “nerf” is to just make gold less important by bringing other currencies up to the level of gold.

Edit: Aaaaaaand, ninja’d by Schizo, essentially. Dat timing.

I agree making other currencies more relevant would be a good thing. I however am sure if other currencies like karma were available for trade they would fall into the very same situation where the tp would be BY FAR the best method for it. It would just start from the beginning vs gold that has had time to progress exponentially.

edit had to capitalize “by far”

Aidan Savage.2078:

Essence Snow.3194:

That would be like if thiefs were obviously OP

Everyone has access to a thief right? If everyone played thief then there wouldn’t be an unbalance. It’s the same logic.

It’s not that the player is that much more skilled it’s that the thief is so much OP than all other professions that would be the issue.

Doesnt stop people from applying illogical arguments to the situation, much like what’s happened in this thread. “He plays thief too good, he must be nerfed.” “They make too much money off the TP, it should be nerfed.”

The tradepost makes a lot of money for a relatively few players because others either dont have the skill to do it (I cant pvp well, so should they nerf spvp?) or the time to dedicate to finding these methods (“I can only play 20 minutes a day, I should be able ot make a bazillion gold a week just like everyone else with less effort”). Naturally, less competition means those players can make vastly more gold than they could with even 1 competitor.
If more players were able to play the market, and play it with even mediocre skill, they’d be able to make money just as easily. It’s not even that hard to get into either. Crafting materials are a good way to start. Buy raw materials with a buy order, refine them into the processed material, then get rid of them with an undercutting sell order. You might make a piddly amount of coppers off each “batch,” but it’s certainly an easy way to start. Not to mention if you’re only doing bundles of 10-30 of a resource, you’re not going to be out hundreds of gold if your sale flops.

That’s not the issue. It’s the ability to be able to based on the design, not the actual players ability based on skill.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Essence Snow.3194:

Idk how to make this any more clear.

It’s NOT the players that are the issue. It IS the level to which a method or the mechanic is out of sync with the rest of the game that is the issue.

It does not matter what the method or mechanic is. Any would have the same issue if it had the same effects. Just like how CoF p1 farming was out of balance, there was also an issue there.

But if the methods or mechanics are available to all players, why aren’t more people doing it? If more people did it, that means the velocity of the acquired wealth is put “in balance”. Again, the TP does not create coin. It shares it among players. The more players doing this, the less of it can be spread.

This goes back to the level of understanding of the mechanics. Laymen’s term: Skill. Some players are skilled at the market. Some players are skilled at SPvP. If you want to nerf one, you must be able to make the same argument for the other.

Situation A: Player makes too much money because they know how to use the TP.

Situation B: Player always wins SPvP matches because they know how to use their Thief.

Proposed solution to A: Nerf TP player’s ability to make money

Proposed solution to B: Nerf Thieves.

So basically, the whole argument can be summed up as: “I’m not as good at X/Y/Z thing in game, so we should limit X/Y/Z to balanced it out”

That would be like if thiefs were obviously OP

Everyone has access to a thief right? If everyone played thief then there wouldn’t be an unbalance. It’s the same logic.

It’s not that the player is that much more skilled it’s that the thief is so much OP than all other professions that would be the issue.

Idk how to make this any more clear.

It’s NOT the players that are the issue. It IS the level to which a method or the mechanic is out of sync with the rest of the game that is the issue.

It does not matter what the method or mechanic is. Any would have the same issue if it had the same effects. Just like how CoF p1 farming was out of balance, there was also an issue there.

I’m not really interested in arguing semantics. I’ll agree playing the tp has the most financial risk of gold making activities.

Done ….15 chars

Tbh I am surprised you are getting so bold with the Codes of Conduct considering you openly admitted to breaching the ToS and their ability to look the other way is the only reason I can tell you haven’t be banned.

Btw I hope you realize you are doing the exact same thing you’re claiming I am doing.

There you go again. I thought you were going to stop talking to me? You don’t live up to your words do you?

If you’re converting gold to gems, you missed the boat. Since then with the increased ratio it will cost more now even with the sale

Some farms have had risk of bans go figure.

Zaxares.5419:

I must admit, I would LOVE to see an updated distribution of wealth chart for the GW2 player base.

This would go such a long ways. I do fear however that it would not be pretty. Remember how the equality of the economy was boasted back we got one? Typically things that are not beneficial are not boasted….ie…if JS and Anet claimed it was a positive then, why wouldn’t it be so now?

And I quote JS:

while the GW2 economy is young, we hope to maintain a high level of equality.

Now why would they hope to maintain equality, yet indulge something that results in the opposite?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

People could say that the rich can afford to pay more, thus the current norm where it’s acceptable to “punish” the rich. Since 98% of the population isn’t rich, they own the majority, thus the reason why more people than not, will back higher taxes. But when you consider “taxes”, that’s usually to benefit the community as a whole. So if the upper 2% were hit by higher taxes, that money would be used to pave roads, build schools, etc.

This same idea cannot be brought to the game. People still have the mindset that punishing or taxing the rich is one way to balance society. But it can’t apply to GW2 where the taxes are mainly a sink that eliminates wealth, rather than spread it. Any attempt to increase taxes on the upper echelon of players with vast wealth, is simply punishment. It doesn’t bring any sort of “balance to the force”, so to speak.

If a targeted Gold Sink is implemented to reduce the wealth of the top 2% of players, you create a system that says “the harder you work, the more we’ll take”. This creates imbalance, since now the 2% needs to work extra hard to earn wealth that the other 98% could get with less effort. As an example, say everyone is capable of earning 1 Gold per hour minimum. If you’re rich, then suddenly you’re throttled back to 50 Silver per hour due to taxes or a targeted Gold Sink. Sure you could say that a rich player is smart enough to make up the difference. But the point is, you’re now creating rules were all players aren’t treated equally.

In this economy, each and every player has the capability to be “rich”. So instead of trying to balance out the efforts of the 2% making lots of money, perhaps people should be more focused on why the other 98% isn’t putting in the same effort.

Lets use your example.

Hypothetically if the distribution of wealth is such to were a few have an amount substantial enough to concentrate wealth beyond a progressive tax rate. Then they would continue to earn more based on their capital investments and increased activity.

This means that at the least two things would happen:
1) More gold would be sunk out of the economy.
2) There would still be the ability for playing the tp to be the top method of coin acquisition would remain as the process becomes cyclical.

The coin sunk might not be able to pave roads or build schools, but the increased sink could allow for increased rewards for the masses which would eventually find their ways back to the tp players. Thus the masses have increase satisfaction for playing the game…..ie….productivity and the tp players get to recoup increased taxes via a market which now has more inputs…ie activity.

In terms of equality. Every ig method of acquiring coin is relatively on par except playing the tp. Bringing it more inline with other methods (not making it equal, but just toning it down a bit) would be the fair thing. Again not suggesting a crazy all or nothing nerf, just an adjustment (which btw would still allow playing the tp to be the best method of acquiring coin). Remember all other methods of acquiring coin do not have the same capacity to do so as playing the tp. There are actual limits to all other ig methods. This means as the amount goes up not only does it become harder for the non tp player to earn such rewards, it becomes impossible via ig means.

GW2 is notorious for poor rewards. Why wouldn’t we want to take measures to improve that? Historically, continued unbound wealth divergence has never turned out well. Why would we be any different?

Again I have no idea why “punished” keeps being brought up. It is simply an alignment of methodology for the greater good of the economy and the sociological impact of such. It’s not meant to “punish” anyone nor would it.