Serenity now~Insanity later
Not really going to be impacted by the removal of repair costs too much. Gold has never been that rewarding (one of the reasons why this game isn’t very rewarding since revolves around it) compared to direct items. Now if we could add in some extra trading taxes and up reward items in the game….now that would be something.
Oh did I mention birds of a feather flock together?
Serenity now~Insanity later
If I was Anet I wouldn’t refund repeats as UI Dyes, I’d refund the repeated dyes themselves as people have clearly bought up all the undesirable ones for the sole purpose to get a pile of valuable UI Dyes on patch day.
This way if you bought the Abyss for several toons, you’ll get the Abyss back with the option to sell it, if you bought a ton of cheap dyes that you couldn’t care less just to turn in a profit by playing with the system then you’d have another thing coming.
I agree 100%. It’s obvious that the sole reason common dyes got bought out to such a level is to obtain UI ones at patch.
Serenity now~Insanity later
This isn’t a hard concept. Stop being fanbois and think about it.
rolf……..never gonna happen. If you wanted valid feedback you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Serenity now~Insanity later
You know what brought the price up? The fear of thousands of normal players. Not speculators,not manipulators. Despite what you might think it is impossible for some of the best traders to manipulate the unid dye market let alone bring prices up to 1g.
So what brought the price down? Speculators who have been hoarding dyes to sell at such an opportunity or knew how to quickly generate supply in order to make a profit. The massive flood of supply stabilized the price (as you said) thanks to these people. You are upset at the wrong people.
This.
I would like to see some numbers from JS. I very much doubt we will ever get any though. Remember the economy report very early on? Yeah, fat chance of us ever getting anything like that again even though it is most likely at their fingertips.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I share in this sentiment. Tbh though I am not surprised one bit. The reward aspect of this game is/has been one of the major weak points. Shame really, such a vital aspect of a rpg of any type, that they don’t seem to grasp. Oh well……
Serenity now~Insanity later
That’s not the real question. The real question is will the stones still be dropping like crazy from daily chests. My guess is no.
That doesn’t change anything for lvl 80 characters, of course, since the crystals don’t drop either.
The crystals do drop from doing the daily. It’s on a 0.26% chance according to the wiki.
I must be exceedingly unlucky as I don’t think I have gotten any crystals and Ive done most dailies since introduced. Stones on the other hand I have had maybe 10.
Serenity now~Insanity later
This is definitely on Anet’s side…ie not a client issue as players from all around the world are having the same issues. It would be nice for them to acknowledge even reading this, but I have lost most of my faith unfortunately.
Serenity now~Insanity later
You decided The general populous has not. Thus you’re wrong.
edit: I gtg for a while, but when I come back I shall taunt you a second time!
Serenity now~Insanity later
Which we are both doing. Pot meet kettle. Hi Pot!
Serenity now~Insanity later
Nope………lol…..You!!!!!!! It’s the heart of soul of your definition…which is dated btw.
Reminds me of trying to explain technology to a baby boomer. They just don’t get it and it’s kinda funny (yet sad at the same time) watching them struggle.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
It’s not the exact same. That’s the reason you’re wrong. If it were there wouldn’t be the option.
Serenity now~Insanity later
The PAY. rl cash, moola, buck, clam, green, cream get the money dolla dolla bill ya’ll>>>>>its the whole debate.
Serenity now~Insanity later
If you paid for that shortcut using rl cash, then yes in the Mario example it would be. (ofc given that being the options have the same objective) The objective needs to stay constant between those things compared.
Just a fyi…I’m in this for the long haul so I’ll just keep on replying cheers
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
It has to be since the paying is replacing something. Since it replaces the time and effort costs to get to the same objective it essentially becomes n-1 (1 being that which is being replaced). The -1 is the advantage/win in P2W thus impossible to not be P2W when present.
Serenity now~Insanity later
What you are saying with that last post is that they are both one in the same which is obviously no true.
There is a definite difference hence the whole debate. Paying vs Not Paying…the difference being the “not”.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Your adding in other independent variables that alter the outcome. It doesn’t work that way. It defeats the comparison.
Serenity now~Insanity later
It surely plays a very large part in it. A non playing player cannot save the same amount of time b/c they have to spend time playing in order to obtain the same advantage.
One obtains it right away from paying via rl cash and the other spends time to obtain it. Given that they are starting from the same point and the only variables are paying with cash vs converting actually playing, the cash will always exceed the conversion.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
Your ignoring the time element again.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Is there really any difference between earning the mats by yourself and earning the gold? IMO, no.
I can understand when you have people buying legendaries off the TP with a credit card – I don’t like it (but I actually don’t care to complain) and I can see how it diminishes it’s value.
But how about the people who spend their time earning the gold to purchase the components from the TP? I don’t see that any different than farming materials directly since you are still dedicating your time, however it may be dedicated to.
I cannot understand people who complain about having to pay for a precursor, while they themselves paid for all their T6 mats and lodestones, which in sum is greater than the precursor it self.
Granted though, you said you didn’t do that. But I personally can’t see why it’s any different farming gold or farming materials.
There is a HUGE time and RNG difference between actually farming the mats and buying them off the TP.
Serenity now~Insanity later
It’s the “These items cannot be used by non-paying members” bit that is messing you up. That’s where the corners on the peg come from. That is the constraint you and some others are adding to a universal definition.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Have a large guild that’s been together for over 6 years. They are the real assets. All the gold and crap in my bank can’t compare.
Serenity now~Insanity later
You can’t seem to accept the idea of using “money to save time.”
It’s not just him. There are a handful of usual suspects that the concept (as well as scaling) is lost on. They just keep trying to hammer that square peg into the round hole.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
I think you are putting way too much emphasis on “ever”.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Here’s a little gem from Mike O’Brien:
As developers, the important thing to us is that we hold true to our standards of what should be and what shouldn’t be purchasable. You may have read my 2012 blog post on this subject. For those of you who haven’t, I’ll summarize. We think it’s right that players can spend money on items to provide visual distinction or customization, and can spend money on account services and time-saving conveniences. We think it’s right that players can trade gems for gold and vice-versa, such that players can keep up with other players and be on a level playing field, whether they use their time or money to do so. But we think it’s never ok for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases. And we think it’s never ok for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.
These are our guiding principles. They’re obviously different from what you see other developers doing. Particularly in China it seems common for games to have VIP systems that make characters more powerful than they could ever be without VIP. That’s not a level playing field; that’s “pay to win”.
P2W conspiracy debunked.
Just like what they are doing with GW2 in China……………lol. Thanks! I didn’t have to do anything,,,,,lol
Actually this in regards to China. If you read carefully, this supports my position.
Unless you meant to compliment me on winning this debate.
The 1st part does, but then the second part contradicts their actions, which is the reason I separated the two in the quote. Maybe you should have read it through and left that bit out…..lol
Serenity now~Insanity later
Here’s a little gem from Mike O’Brien:
As developers, the important thing to us is that we hold true to our standards of what should be and what shouldn’t be purchasable. You may have read my 2012 blog post on this subject. For those of you who haven’t, I’ll summarize. We think it’s right that players can spend money on items to provide visual distinction or customization, and can spend money on account services and time-saving conveniences. We think it’s right that players can trade gems for gold and vice-versa, such that players can keep up with other players and be on a level playing field, whether they use their time or money to do so. But we think it’s never ok for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases. And we think it’s never ok for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.
These are our guiding principles. They’re obviously different from what you see other developers doing. Particularly in China it seems common for games to have VIP systems that make characters more powerful than they could ever be without VIP. That’s not a level playing field; that’s “pay to win”.
P2W conspiracy debunked.
Just like what they are doing with GW2 in China……………lol. Thanks! I didn’t have to do anything,,,,,lol
Serenity now~Insanity later
Do you actually read b4 replying?
Serenity now~Insanity later
Time…………..15 chars
Serenity now~Insanity later
I think the issue here has completely devolved into a semantic discussion about what “Pay to Win” means.
The expression originated in PvP contests where the game publisher would offer items for sale that literally allowed you to pay for a win by getting an item that the other player could not overcome with skill. While primarily still used in that same PvP context, it has seen increasing use in PvE arenas (where PvP “winning” isn’t possible since players are in competition with the AI, not each other), usually applied to cash shop items that provide some form of non-cosmetic benefit.
I suggest we find a new term for advantage granting cash shop items in a PvE context, as that would eliminate a lot of confusion and linguistic discussion. Can anyone contact those ISO folks and see if they are working on a standard? :P
Seriously though, I do think we need a new term for PvE advantage granting items so as to not confuse them with PvP Pay to Win items. Even if it means simply adding PvE to the name, I’m down with that too.
This I can agree with.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Now think about that article a bit and how paying more in gw2 might apply to that. Enlightening!
Serenity now~Insanity later
Can’t tell if serious…..
Okay let me try…..
If you took that worded criteria from some other place it can be sourced. Pretty easy huh?
If you did not get that specific worded criteria from somewhere else, you created it. Not too hard to process eh?
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
Then ofc you know I am going to ask for a legitimate source. We know that’s rhetorical b/c you don’t have one….ie you made that specific worded criteria up. I cannot help you if you do not understand simple concepts such as your own words vs someone else’s words.
Serenity now~Insanity later
They need to update accessory coloring options. It’s great we have new hairstyles, but being stuck with the extremely limited colors for accessories (that many of these include) is saddening to say the least.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I think ya’ll are misunderstanding. While ya’ll are trying to convince those like me that p2w only applies if there is a set level of advantage (which ya’ll can’t reference), we are saying there are levels of it.
I don’t need to convince you of anything. Please feel free to call “P2W” whatever you wish. As long as you understand, deep down, that your definition is flawed and incorrect. Why? Every argument that you make fails the litmus test. Please refer to the following quote:
Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:
1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.
Until you can manage to pass that test, your side of the debate fails.
You do know that this is YOUR decider? This test is made up by you, has your constraints, and therefore does not necessarily apply to others. There is no official “litmus test” for P2W even though you may wish yours to be it. There inlies your issue. You think you are the authority. I am here to gladly inform you that you’re not.
Serenity now~Insanity later
To an extent yes. I guess you were never active on GWGuru during GW1 as I extensively debated the topic there prior to GW2 release.
No, back during GW1 I was still stuck using dial up internet, so forums were off limits (as was competitive GW1 game modes… and the survivor title).
So, if you knew/know that GW2 is P2W based on your definition of P2W, where do you draw the line for “so much P2W that I won’t play”?
Oh that idk. That is a different question, which I have not contemplated enough to answer.
Serenity now~Insanity later
To an extent yes. I guess you were never active on GWGuru during GW1 as I extensively debated the topic there prior to GW2 release.
Serenity now~Insanity later
The sheer ability to gain objectives quicker with cash then w/o. Saving time is an advantage since time is a limited resource to us. I’m not saying it is a massive advantage, just that it is one.
Serenity now~Insanity later
I think ya’ll are misunderstanding. While ya’ll are trying to convince those like me that p2w only applies if there is a set level of advantage (which ya’ll can’t reference), we are saying there are levels of it.
Many seem to think by me saying that GW2 falls into P2W it must be a massive advantage, which is not the case at all. It is on the low end of the scale. There are advantages to be had via rl cash in GW2 over those who don’t spend rl cash in GW2 even if those are only saving time. Ya’ll can try to argue that saving time is not an advantage, but that will be an extremely hard position to stand on as time is renowned for being one of our most valuable assets.
Serenity now~Insanity later
The correlation was: In English there are words with multiple meanings like idioms for example. It is proof that explicit descriptions are not the only validity for a given words or sum of words unless otherwise noted.
I figure we will be infracted soon, which will end the beating of this horse, but only that since ya’lls arguments are not cutting the mustard in terms of being definitive.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Correlation* key word…lol. and you suggest I have an English competency issue.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Kick=strike or propel forcibly with the foot. or in this case: succeed in giving up (a habit or addiction).
The =used to point forward to a following qualifying or defining clause or phrase
Bucket=a roughly cylindrical open container, typically made of metal or plastic, with a handle, used to hold and carry liquids or other material.
yep that couldn’t possibly apply to someone dying………………………lol
I leave you to figure out the correlation between that and the case at hand (maybe I should do case at hand as well…lol)
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
Can’t stop laughing………………………………
Serenity now~Insanity later
Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.
I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.
ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuffthere is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.
Here’s the kicker…..you simply don’t have any thing backing up that definition, so it’s no more valid then the next. I understand what you think is the definition. It’s not hard to figure out what you mean. I simply don’t believe your definition is any more valid than anyone else’s based on you have nothing to back it up. I’ll repeat…..no reference material, no authority, or legality to cite opens the definition of P2W to debate. And atm ya’’ll have not concreted the validity of your opinions to fact, thus are no more correct in your definition.
Sorry mate. Our definition of P2W is the correct one. You may not fully understand the Asian game culture, but there’s a reason why Pay 2 Win games exist. It’s to prey upon the egos of players willing to throw endless money for virtual goods to be “the best player evar”. Certain players are willing to pay for these statistical advantages because they guarantee “wins”. Advantages not available to non-paying players.
Guild Wars 2 is not such a game. I can’t “win” from having a mining tool that gives me magical sprockets. I can’t “win” from running around out-of-combat faster. And I could win from having a +5% damage boost, but so can everyone else, thus not P2W.
Again the burden of proof falls upon you since you claim something as fact. Since not one of you can prove this “definitive definition” it simply isn’t. Not a hard concept..at least I thought. But by all means try that same stance anywhere else and see how far it’ll get ya. I’d be more than confident that it wouldn’t get ya very far. “It is that way because we say it is”…ya not gonna fly.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.
I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.
ok, let me explain on a childish yet simple way:
player 1 doesn’t have money to pay for in-game stuff
player 2 has loads of money to pay for in-game stuffthere is an item in the gem store that gives you the ability to do 100DMG x level, it’s impossible to get this normally in-game.
player 1 can’t buy this item, player 2 buys about 20 of them for each character.
now player 2 has the advantage against player 1, no matter what player 1 tried it’s impossible to win against player 2 because of this item.that’s the true definition of P2W, you buy something in the store that gives you the advantage over anyone who doesn’t buy that item.
Here’s the kicker…..you simply don’t have any thing backing up that definition, so it’s no more valid then the next. I understand what you think is the definition. It’s not hard to figure out what you mean. I simply don’t believe your definition is any more valid than anyone else’s based on you have nothing to back it up. I’ll repeat…..no reference material, no authority, or legality to cite opens the definition of P2W to debate. And atm ya’’ll have not concreted the validity of your opinions to fact, thus are no more correct in your definition.
Edit: Had to add this note as evidently it’s hard to figure out. I’m not saying that an example where Joe Smoe buys a +200 sword is not p2w when that sword is not available anywhere but via rl cash and is beyond anything else. What I am saying is that is not the only aspect of P2W, the only parameters, that P2W extends beyond what some have decided it may or may not include.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
Basically anything that gives statistical advantage over someone else while only being able to be obtained by cash as opposed to cash or gold.
I don’t buy into the “only available via cash” requirement. By that logic if it we available by any amount of ig gold (for example), like 1million gold for a statistical advantage, then by that exemption it wouldn’t be P2W even though the ig amount is preposterous.
Serenity now~Insanity later
~~~ snip ~~~
While it’s true everyone is free to interpret how the term “P2W” means, there’s only one true meaning, thus making everyone’s interpretation wrong.
In Asian gaming cultures, Paying 2 Win is a way to reward players prestigious or powerful items if they spent real money on the game. A powerful sword, an exclusive game card, extra HP, access to exclusive areas, etc. These offerings are not made to non-paying players. This business strategy forces people to have to spend real money in order to get the “VIP” treatment.
P2W is not a convenience . P2W is Paying to Win. The term “win” is also not open to interpretations. In PvP, winning means you defeated your opponents. In PvE, winning means you killed the boss. When a game company offers an item that makes “winning” easy, and these items can only be obtained through real money purchases, then the game is P2W.
Here are questions to determine if something is P2W:
1) Does it give you a statistical advantage in game?
2) Does it cost real money?
3) Is it only available to paying players?
If the answer to all three questions is “yes”, then it’s P2W.Guild Wars, and Guild Wars 2 has never been, and hopefully never will be P2W. Having a fancy armor skin is not “winning”, as it fails #1. Running faster for an hour is not “winning”, as it does not count towards #1 since combat nullifies speed boosts. +5% damage or defense boosters? Oooooh that can be considered P2W. BUT, it fails #3, as all players are able to access this via Gold to Gem exchanges.
The Chinese GW2 comes close to P2W, but I don’t think they crossed that line yet. We’ll find out soon when official launch comes, and the Gem Store offerings are made public.
Please by all means reference this " one true meaning". Given your whole premise is based from it, I would assume you have access to it.
Serenity now~Insanity later
In his or her 1st example the problem was time. Time gates mean a lot when you cannot buy around them, yet next to nothing when you can.
The analogy about the sky and cake is way off….btw, since time completely relates to the matter at hand.
Not sure if serious. So if I take a day off from work in order to play GW2, the game is now P2W? It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy!
I can spell it out if needed.
That aside: The main issue I see here is that people have different ideas of what P2W is. Since there really is no definitive definition of the term, at a point it is open to individual interpretation. This causes all kinds of problems specially in this sort of format. I see that for some it’s defined as an A-Y vs Z issue, while for others an A vs B-X issue. To further elaborate: win in the former is only Z, only the final determinate. In the latter win is an advantage, so the levels of win range from B-X. I’m sure there are other groups, but for the sake of simplicity I’ll just leave this to those.
I’ll try to explain the latter since it is the opposition.
In the latter it applies if an advantage is available for purchase. P2W here is a general descriptive terminology for something where this is a possibility. The amount or level of advantage does not matter. If there is one at all regardless of measurement it falls into P2W (paying for an advantage). In gw2 we have clever wording like convenience, which happens to be a synonym for advantage. Ergo paying for convenience is paying for advantage or P2W. So from this standpoint GW2 has always been P2W. Now the debate of “to what extent” (minor-major scaling), is a related, yet separate debate. Sort of like considering plants. Is a certain one a tree yes or no? If so, is it a 1in sapling or is it General Sherman or the Hyperion. The scaling (although massive) doesn’t apply to whether or not it is a tree.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Buy your cores/lodestones NOW while we still have the huge influx of champ bags from LA. As soon as it ends they WILL increase in price unless we have another method of obtaining tons of champ bags for the masses.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Example 1:
So I can’t play enough to get ascended gear because I don’t have enough time. The only way for me to obtain it is to buy it with real money.
Thus by your definition GW2 is P2W because the only way for me to obtain statistically superior gear is to pay real money.
Example 2: Joe buys +100 sword of greatness in P2W game 27. Jane kills him with +10 fail sword that is the highest obtainable in game because she has significantly more skill than Joe. This game by your definition is not P2W anymore since Joe didn’t actually win by paying.
Your definition needs some reworking it seems. Time is valuable and is certainly considered a winning difference to many people.
All your first example is wrong. You can’t buy Ascended gear outright, because some mats are Account Bound. Plus, just because you don’t have time to play, doesn’t mean anything. P2W means paying to have an advantage of non-paying. Since non-paying players are able to get Ascended gear without spending any real money, your example is moot. It’s like saying “The sky is blue because cake is delicious.” One does not relate to another.
Your second example is spot on. Buying a sword that has better stats than what’s available in game is P2W. You touched up on the skill of the person buying the sword, which makes him a fail P2Wer. That’s two separate issues.
In his or her 1st example the problem was time. Time gates mean a lot when you cannot buy around them, yet next to nothing when you can.
The analogy about the sky and cake is way off….btw, since time completely relates to the matter at hand.
Again, you are skirting the issue … why does anyone in NA care if some dude in China can warp or ress? Where is the win in that scenario when we don’t compete with them? Nonsense.
For me it’s more about Anet moving closer and closer to something which lured many players to the GW franchise from other games. Okay so they won’t have it here (yet), but they are definitely showing the are more than willing to add it.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
So….ANet….
You cannot program an “auto-clicker” macro that, for instance, opens chests while you play elsewhere.
I can auto click my way to titles….namely Thirst Slayer ….since this is based off the same principle?
Serenity now~Insanity later